A couple more questions regarding French terminology; One of the 17th century men who originally described himself as "ouvrier des monaies du roi" is later termed "le majeur, patron pescheur" and sometimes simply "patron." He wasn't military and as far as we can tell there wasn't another man with the same name in the area, so, can the term "le majeur" indicate has social class? As for "patron pescheur" it seems to translate as "patron to fishermen" but I'm not clear on what that would entail. Can someone help with this terminology? Thanks again, Marcia

Marcia "Ouvrier des monaies du roi" means treasurer (or someone who works at the royal mint, making actual coins). "Patron" is "boss". "Majeure" is "supervisor". "Pescheur". I've seen this in 16th and 17th century text as another word for "sinner". Now, what "the supervisor, boss sinner" has to do with the treasury is probably best left up to another interpretation!! Melissa Roy --- Marcia Bignall <mbignall@mac.com> wrote: > A couple more questions regarding French > terminology; > > One of the 17th century men who originally described > himself as > "ouvrier des monaies du roi" is later termed "le > majeur, patron > pescheur" and sometimes simply "patron." He wasn't > military and as > far as we can tell there wasn't another man with the > same name in the > area, so, can the term "le majeur" indicate has > social class? > > As for "patron pescheur" it seems to translate as > "patron to > fishermen" but I'm not clear on what that would > entail. Can someone > help with this terminology? > > Thanks again, > Marcia > > > ==== HUGUENOTS-WALLOONS-EUROPE Mailing List ==== > Need to unsubscribe but not sure how to do it? > Full instructions are on the list website at: > http://www.island.net/~andreav/unsub.htm. > > ============================== > Jumpstart your genealogy with OneWorldTree. Search > not only for > ancestors, but entire generations. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13972/rd.ashx > > ___________________________________________________________ To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com

Thanks Melissa! A maker of coins for the royal mint is just what I was looking for. "Money handler" didn't do it for me. This is all making sense (except for the supervisor of "sinners" of course). The last time this man is found described as an "ouvrier des monaies du roi" was in 1663. As a Protestant I bet he had to find another line of work not associated with the royal mint or any other government position. And yes, the upper classes needed their cordonniers too, so that does explain why I'm seeing bourgeois shoemakers. Marcia On Feb 17, 2006, at 12:41 PM, Melissa Roy wrote: > Marcia > > "Ouvrier des monaies du roi" means treasurer (or > someone who works at the royal mint, making actual > coins). > > "Patron" is "boss". > "Majeure" is "supervisor". > "Pescheur". I've seen this in 16th and 17th century > text as another word for "sinner". Now, what "the > supervisor, boss sinner" has to do with the treasury > is probably best left up to another interpretation!! > > Melissa Roy > --- Marcia Bignall <mbignall@mac.com> wrote: > >> A couple more questions regarding French >> terminology; >> >> One of the 17th century men who originally described >> himself as >> "ouvrier des monaies du roi" is later termed "le >> majeur, patron >> pescheur" and sometimes simply "patron." He wasn't >> military and as >> far as we can tell there wasn't another man with the >> same name in the >> area, so, can the term "le majeur" indicate has >> social class? >> >> As for "patron pescheur" it seems to translate as >> "patron to >> fishermen" but I'm not clear on what that would >> entail. Can someone >> help with this terminology? >> >> Thanks again, >> Marcia >> >> >> ==== HUGUENOTS-WALLOONS-EUROPE Mailing List ==== >> Need to unsubscribe but not sure how to do it? >> Full instructions are on the list website at: >> http://www.island.net/~andreav/unsub.htm. >> >> ============================== >> Jumpstart your genealogy with OneWorldTree. Search >> not only for >> ancestors, but entire generations. Learn more: >> http://www.ancestry.com/s13972/rd.ashx >> >> > > > > > ___________________________________________________________ > To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all > new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com

Me again! Further discussion about "patron pescheur". We agree that "pescheur" also means "sinner", but it doesn't make sense in context. What makes more sense is "Head of Fisheries". We are not certain whether this was a royal appointment. Bearing in mind that France was an absolute monarchy during the 17th c., the Roi would not just be the owner of ancestral lands but of territorial waters. However, there's a slight disagreement in this household on how that all operated. Michel believes they operated on a system of royal warrants at the time whereby there were fishmonger(s) which supplied fish and seafood exclusively to the royal household (much as food merchants provide food stuffs non-exclusively to the royal household in the UK today). However, I think because their would have been a Royal Gameskeeper, a Master of Swans, etc., there must have also been someone in charge of procurement of fish and seafood who was an actual member of the Royal household and not just a trade supplier under warrant or seal. These are two opinions on which we would also be interested in other views/clarification. Melissa Roy --- Marcia Bignall <mbignall@mac.com> wrote: > A couple more questions regarding French > terminology; > > One of the 17th century men who originally described > himself as > "ouvrier des monaies du roi" is later termed "le > majeur, patron > pescheur" and sometimes simply "patron." He wasn't > military and as > far as we can tell there wasn't another man with the > same name in the > area, so, can the term "le majeur" indicate has > social class? > > As for "patron pescheur" it seems to translate as > "patron to > fishermen" but I'm not clear on what that would > entail. Can someone > help with this terminology? > > Thanks again, > Marcia > > > ==== HUGUENOTS-WALLOONS-EUROPE Mailing List ==== > Need to unsubscribe but not sure how to do it? > Full instructions are on the list website at: > http://www.island.net/~andreav/unsub.htm. > > ============================== > Jumpstart your genealogy with OneWorldTree. Search > not only for > ancestors, but entire generations. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13972/rd.ashx > > ___________________________________________________________ NEW Yahoo! Cars - sell your car and browse thousands of new and used cars online! http://uk.cars.yahoo.com/

Melissa & Michel, Another thought regarding the "patron" pecheur title; one of the online translators translated this as "skipper" so I wondered if perhaps he was captain of a fishing vessel or possibly commanded a fleet of fishing boats (this was on the south coast of France). If this man was in a royal job, wouldn't his position have dried up as the noose tightened around the protestants? At some point he began signing his name with "dit Fustier." We haven't seen any sign that he was ever a carpenter or fustier (which I take to mean an artisan carpenter) although his grandfather was termed as both. The surname Fustier may have been in his family, but not in his direct line. Interestingly, he had a brother who also was an "ouvrier des monaies du roi" and later became a plain "pecheur" but he too signed his name "dit Fustier" on at least one occasion. Could this have been a way of distinguishing himself as a member of the bourgeois? And one last question (I think!) regarding the cordonnier title; they sometimes were termed "me cordonnier" and "me? cordonnier." I guessed the "me" may mean a "master" shoemaker," but why the question mark symbol? Did it have a different meaning in 17th century French script? Thanks for all your help, Marcia On Feb 17, 2006, at 1:15 PM, Melissa Roy wrote: > Me again! > > Further discussion about "patron pescheur". We agree > that "pescheur" also means "sinner", but it doesn't > make sense in context. > > What makes more sense is "Head of Fisheries". We are > not certain whether this was a royal appointment. > Bearing in mind that France was an absolute monarchy > during the 17th c., the Roi would not just be the > owner of ancestral lands but of territorial waters. > However, there's a slight disagreement in this > household on how that all operated. Michel believes > they operated on a system of royal warrants at the > time whereby there were fishmonger(s) which supplied > fish and seafood exclusively to the royal household > (much as food merchants provide food stuffs > non-exclusively to the royal household in the UK > today). However, I think because their would have > been a Royal Gameskeeper, a Master of Swans, etc., > there must have also been someone in charge of > procurement of fish and seafood who was an actual > member of the Royal household and not just a trade > supplier under warrant or seal. > > These are two opinions on which we would also be > interested in other views/clarification. > > Melissa Roy > --- Marcia Bignall <mbignall@mac.com> wrote: > >> A couple more questions regarding French >> terminology; >> >> One of the 17th century men who originally described >> himself as >> "ouvrier des monaies du roi" is later termed "le >> majeur, patron >> pescheur" and sometimes simply "patron." He wasn't >> military and as >> far as we can tell there wasn't another man with the >> same name in the >> area, so, can the term "le majeur" indicate has >> social class? >> >> As for "patron pescheur" it seems to translate as >> "patron to >> fishermen" but I'm not clear on what that would >> entail. Can someone >> help with this terminology? >> >> Thanks again, >> Marcia >> >> >> ==== HUGUENOTS-WALLOONS-EUROPE Mailing List ==== >> Need to unsubscribe but not sure how to do it? >> Full instructions are on the list website at: >> http://www.island.net/~andreav/unsub.htm. >> >> ============================== >> Jumpstart your genealogy with OneWorldTree. Search >> not only for >> ancestors, but entire generations. Learn more: >> http://www.ancestry.com/s13972/rd.ashx >> >> > > > > > ___________________________________________________________ > NEW Yahoo! Cars - sell your car and browse thousands of new and > used cars online! http://uk.cars.yahoo.com/