Hello, Normandy was so named after this area was given over to Rollo the Viking or Hrolf the Ganger AKA Robert 1 Duke of Normandy in 911 A.D. by Charles the Simple, 4th Great Grandson of Charlemagne. This was the main area of Viking invasion into the heart of France. Rollo was given this area of the North of France if he would protect it against the invasions of other Vikings, and if Rollo would be baptised which he was in 911 at Rouen. Rollo was the 3rd Great Grandfather of William the Conqueror. The area of Normandy was known as such after it was given to Rollo the Viking or Northmen of Norway. Marty Graybill > -----Original Message----- > From: Robert W Fay [mailto:madgrad77@clsurf.com] > Sent: Friday, March 09, 2001 5:38 AM > To: HUGUENOTS-WALLOONS-EUROPE-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: [HWE] Norman French > > > Hi Andrea and all! > > What exactly do you mean by the term "Norman" and in what period > of time are you > referring to Andrea? This term seems to have a multitude of > meanings, and that can > create confusion. > > Bob Fay > <snip> > For example, the name may have arrived in England through the > Norman French -- "amis" translates as "friends". > <snip> > Would welcome comments from lurkers and others! Andrea > > > ==== HUGUENOTS-WALLOONS-EUROPE Mailing List ==== > When posting to the Huguenots-Walloons-Europe list: > Your subject line must reflect the content of your message. > eg. include topic or surname(s) and/or date and/or location. > > > ============================== > Create a FREE family website at MyFamily.com! > http://www.myfamily.com/banner.asp?ID=RWLIST2 >

Hi Marty & Peter and all, Well, now be a little careful here. First, the ancient period is generally defined as prior to 500AD. From 500AD to 1000AD is usually called the early medieval period (formerly Dark Ages), from 1000AD to 1500AD the later medieval period, and after 1500AD the modern age. As far as I know there was no Norway in 911AD. What there were was nomadic bands or tribes of barbarians roaming the entire area now known as Scandinavia. Historians believe they were under population or food pressure and thus sought out other lands. As a group they are known as Vikings and attempted many invasions all along the coast of Western Europe, England, Ireland, Iceland, Greenland and probably other places as well. But the Normandy that was granted to Rollo was subsequently enlarged over the years and became what we know as Normandy of the medieval period. But the socalled Northmen were a minority there. The Frankish people were in the majority, probably followed by the Gallo-Romans. Neither the Northmen nor the Frankish were literate and neither had surnames. But Gallo-Romans of this era had a higher rate of literacy and were often employed by the rulers, particularly among the Frankish, in high government administrative positions and high military position. And the Gallo-Romans often had surnames and family histories some predating this era by hundreds of years. The Normans have a long history of intermarriage with the indigenous peoples and so it was in Normandy. So when you use the term Norman, are you referring to someone who is actually a "Northman" or someone who may be of Frankish or Gallo-Roman descent that happened to live in Normandy at this time? The family histories are really quite different. But that is hardly the end of the problems with using the term Norman. The next big problem occurs when William invades England; the socalled Norman Conquest of England. He made large grants of land to those that accompanied or otherwise helped him in this endeavor. So, if an ancestor is found among those that accompanied William, then they must be from Normandy right? Well, no not exactly. Seems only about a third were actually from Normandy. About a third were from Flanders and another third from Brittany. And people of those duchys have very different family histories. So when you use the term Norman, do you mean someone from Normandy or someone from Normandy, Brittany or Flanders that accompanied William? Well, it seems next William overhauled the English feudal system and in the process 92% of the real estate held by the "english" inhabitants changed hands and most passed into "Norman" hands. He did this by taking the best of the feudal system in the Duchy of Normandy and elsewhere on the continent, modifying it, and then instituting it in England. This was considered the most highly developed feudal system of the time and is known as the Norman feudal system. So when you use the term Norman, do you mean someone who has adopted and pledged to live under the Norman feudal system and holds property within that system? Thats a common usage. But that is not the end of it. The Normans started in 911AD with the most highly developed naval craft, and built upon it with the addition of the armored knight on horseback. This was considered the most highly developed military technology of the time is often called the Norman Knight.. So if one has a Norman Knight in ones family history, does that mean the family traces back to Normandy? Hardly. They could have been from many places and are only called Norman because they adopted the Norman military technology and feudal system. I'm not sure of the exact ending date for the period termed the "Norman" period, but de Braise and de Lacy and many other Norman lords were ejected from England by John, and subsequently he was forced to agree to the Magna Carta in the early 1200's so the date of 1200 may be a few years too early. But Henry II clearly ruled within the Norman period and employed many Norman knights for his military endeveors in the Norman Conquest of Ireland and and the many battles in Western Europe. So if someone was a Norman of this period, where were they from? Well, actually it turns out Henry married Eleanor of Aquitaine and many or most of these knights were actually from what is now southern France. So, the term Norman to me has many different meanings, and it is important to consider the exact time and place and context that it is used in order to derive any useful information from it. Bob Fay <snip> Normandy was so named after this area was given over to Rollo the Viking or Hrolf the Ganger AKA Robert 1 Duke of Normandy in 911 A.D. by Charles the Simple, 4th Great Grandson of Charlemagne. This was the main area of Viking invasion into the heart of France. Rollo was given this area of the North of France if he would protect it against the invasions of other Vikings, and if Rollo would be baptised which he was in 911 at Rouen. Rollo was the 3rd Great Grandfather of William the Conqueror. The area of Normandy was known as such after it was given to Rollo the Viking or Northmen of Norway. Marty Graybill <snip>

Well done, Squire Bob Fay! Tis a good presentation as an introduction to the multi-facted Norman cultures. Squire Cliff of Canada

Hi Cliff, Thanks. I hope I didn't make any mistakes! But the worst of it is, in the interest of brevity, it leaves out so much. Heck, I didn't even mention my favorite: The Angevin Empire! And those "Normans" Bob Fay Date forwarded: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 14:10:12 -0700 Date sent: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 16:10:07 -0500 From: Cliff Huber <chuber@alumni.lakeheadu.ca> Subject: Re: [HWE] Norman French To: HUGUENOTS-WALLOONS-EUROPE-L@rootsweb.com Forwarded by: HUGUENOTS-WALLOONS-EUROPE-L@rootsweb.com Well done, Squire Bob Fay! Tis a good presentation as an introduction to the multi-facted Norman cultures. Squire Cliff of Canada ==== HUGUENOTS-WALLOONS-EUROPE Mailing List ==== To unsubscribe (if you are in digest mode), type and send only the word unsubscribe to: Huguenots-Walloons-Europe-D-request@rootsweb.com ============================== Visit Ancestry.com for a FREE 14-Day Trial and enjoy access to the #1 Source for Family History Online. Go to: http://www.ancestry.com/subscribe/subscribetrial1y.asp?sourcecode=F11HB

Great, Bob! ... and correct! My understanding and knowledge of these time periods, policies and terms is exactly the same. Exceptly, not in these times Gallo-Romans had *no* surnames either, at best in addition to the name later they used descriptions, e.g. of origin from a place, a region, or patronymics (what did others, too). Like in Germany, all over Europe surnames came up during the 13th century 'cause population increased. It became necessary then to differentiate between so many Johns, Peter, Henrys and Fredericks, also amongst the noble families. Juergen ***************************** Jürgen Fritsche (Germany) ----------------------------- genealogy@ib-fritsche.de ***************************** > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- > Von: Robert W Fay [mailto:madgrad77@clsurf.com] > Gesendet am: Freitag, 9. März 2001 21:04 > An: HUGUENOTS-WALLOONS-EUROPE-L@rootsweb.com > Betreff: RE: [HWE] Norman French > > Hi Marty & Peter and all, > > Well, now be a little careful here. > > First, the ancient period is generally defined as prior to 500AD. > From 500AD to > 1000AD is usually called the early medieval period (formerly Dark > Ages), from > 1000AD to 1500AD the later medieval period, and after 1500AD the > modern age. > > As far as I know there was no Norway in 911AD. What there were > was nomadic bands > or tribes of barbarians roaming the entire area now known as > Scandinavia. Historians > believe they were under population or food pressure and thus > sought out other lands. > As a group they are known as Vikings and attempted many invasions > all along the > coast of Western Europe, England, Ireland, Iceland, Greenland and > probably other > places as well. > > But the Normandy that was granted to Rollo was subsequently > enlarged over the years > and became what we know as Normandy of the medieval period. > > But the socalled Northmen were a minority there. The Frankish > people were in the > majority, probably followed by the Gallo-Romans. Neither the > Northmen nor the > Frankish were literate and neither had surnames. But Gallo-Romans > of this era had a > higher rate of literacy and were often employed by the rulers, > particularly among the > Frankish, in high government administrative positions and high > military position. And > the Gallo-Romans often had surnames and family histories some > predating this era by > hundreds of years. The Normans have a long history of > intermarriage with the > indigenous peoples and so it was in Normandy. > > So when you use the term Norman, are you referring to someone who > is actually a > "Northman" or someone who may be of Frankish or Gallo-Roman descent that > happened to live in Normandy at this time? The family histories > are really quite > different. > > But that is hardly the end of the problems with using the term Norman. > > The next big problem occurs when William invades England; the > socalled Norman > Conquest of England. He made large grants of land to those that > accompanied or > otherwise helped him in this endeavor. > > So, if an ancestor is found among those that accompanied William, > then they must be > from Normandy right? > > Well, no not exactly. Seems only about a third were actually from > Normandy. About a > third were from Flanders and another third from Brittany. And > people of those duchys > have very different family histories. > > So when you use the term Norman, do you mean someone from Normandy or > someone from Normandy, Brittany or Flanders that accompanied William? > > Well, it seems next William overhauled the English feudal system > and in the process > 92% of the real estate held by the "english" inhabitants changed > hands and most passed > into "Norman" hands. He did this by taking the best of the feudal > system in the Duchy > of Normandy and elsewhere on the continent, modifying it, and > then instituting it in > England. This was considered the most highly developed feudal > system of the time and > is known as the Norman feudal system. > > So when you use the term Norman, do you mean someone who has adopted and > pledged to live under the Norman feudal system and holds property > within that > system? Thats a common usage. > > But that is not the end of it. The Normans started in 911AD with > the most highly > developed naval craft, and built upon it with the addition of the > armored knight on > horseback. This was considered the most highly developed military > technology of the > time is often called the Norman Knight.. > > So if one has a Norman Knight in ones family history, does that > mean the family traces > back to Normandy? Hardly. They could have been from many places > and are only > called Norman because they adopted the Norman military technology > and feudal > system. > > I'm not sure of the exact ending date for the period termed the > "Norman" period, but > de Braise and de Lacy and many other Norman lords were ejected > from England by > John, and subsequently he was forced to agree to the Magna Carta > in the early 1200's > so the date of 1200 may be a few years too early. > > But Henry II clearly ruled within the Norman period and employed > many Norman > knights for his military endeveors in the Norman Conquest of > Ireland and and the > many battles in Western Europe. > > So if someone was a Norman of this period, where were they from? > Well, actually it > turns out Henry married Eleanor of Aquitaine and many or most of > these knights were > actually from what is now southern France. > > So, the term Norman to me has many different meanings, and it is > important to > consider the exact time and place and context that it is used in > order to derive any > useful information from it. > > Bob Fay > > > <snip> > Normandy was so named after this area was given over to Rollo the > Viking or > Hrolf the Ganger AKA Robert 1 Duke of Normandy in 911 A.D. by Charles the > Simple, 4th Great Grandson of Charlemagne. This was the main area > of Viking > invasion into the heart of France. Rollo was given this area of > the North of > France if he would protect it against the invasions of other > Vikings, and if > Rollo would be baptised which he was in 911 at Rouen. Rollo was the 3rd > Great Grandfather of William the Conqueror. > The area of Normandy was known as such after it was given to Rollo the > Viking or Northmen of Norway. > Marty Graybill > <snip> > > > ==== HUGUENOTS-WALLOONS-EUROPE Mailing List ==== > Be a participating subscriber! Post your surname interests often. > Once a month is about right, or more often if you have new details. > Address your post to Huguenots-Walloons-Europe-L@rootsweb.com > > > ============================== > The easiest way to stay in touch with your family and friends! > http://www.myfamily.com/banner.asp?ID=RWLIST1 >