My goodness Leroy Lives!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! French history, well there's a thought - slight diversion of course but the French didn't win the war (last one that is) nor did they win in North Africa. Last year (maybe year before) a history mag had an edition devoted to great French battles - problem was, about 50% were LOST - not for one moment doubting the bravery of the French Poilu but it's the way French historians spin things - very silly sometimes. Now for a positive spin on Huguenots and Protestantes, come further south than Normandie/Bretagne. This area gets forgotten somehow but not only was it the site of major events during the Wars of Religion but it has always been the awkward corner where the non-conformists = broadly anti-Catholic = left wing = Freemasons = Cathares (bit further south east into the Languedoc actually but it's French history so flexible) = why it's such an interesting place to live from an historians (and personal) point of view. Good to see that tempus hasn't fugit'd you yet Peter. Regards Tony Fuller

peter@leroy.ws a écrit : > Soir Folks, > > Protestantes in a good light ? > > My goodness me, must be published in Bretagne then :) Hmm then again some there don't have much good to say about the French anywho, no matter the flavour of their religious ancestors. > > Discovering Reformation / Protestante history in that part of the motherland is difficult at the best of times. Ever since those darn fishermen burnt the library in Rennes, or part thereof. > > I may just have to contact Fuller the Great and enquire further, in private email of course. > > Ok ok sweet concierge of all things HWE, I shall now mention, that I too am seeking any information regarding the Protestante (Huguenot) rising in Bretagne from around 1535 to 1600. Which of course is part of French history. > > Kind Regards, > Peter Leroy > > Hi Peter, Correction - it wasn't the library (thank goodness !) but the parlement - i.e. law courts - and as far as I know no XVIth century documents were lost. And while the fire did break out after a pretty angry demonstration there has never been any proof that it was started by the fishermen - let alone deliberately. That said, what are you looking for ? Do you have Nicole Vray's book ? Best regards, Peter Meazey, Dinan, Brittany. site perso (in French) : http://la-jegado.monsite.orange.fr

Hi Peter Thanks for that - one of the reasons that I think this mag is actually good is that it not only shows the Protestantes in a good - i.e. historically impartial - light but it even goes as far as explaining what a Huguenot is, a word as you will know, which is hardly ever used in France. Regards Tony Fuller

Hi Tony, I have trouble explaining to some of my friends that Paris is not actually, scientifically speaking, the centre of the universe... The younger ones don't usually have the De Gaulle complex - they've been brought up on "Saving Private Ryan" and suchlike, so are totally convinced that the Normandy landings only involved US troops. No Brits, no Canadians, no Free French. They are very surprised, if not incredulous, when I talk about little jaunts like the St Nazaire raid. How do you say "Cockleshell Heroes" in French ? :-) Seriously, the problem with many French historians is that the whole idea of Protestantism is so alien to their way of thought that they can't take it on board. So it gets ignored or, if it comes up on the radar, swept under the carpet. Keep up the good work, ATB, Peter

Mi Martin You're right but it's NOT from the French point of view and whilst the French may have an odd viewpoint sometimes - de Gaulle, contrary to options here, didn't win WWII single handed - seeing how the French regard their history, rather than the usual Anglophile/US view of history can give a different perspective. Regards Tony Fuller Editor, Huguenot Families

Hi folks This may help some people who are unsure of French History - but you need some basic French to understand it. The world famous Dummies series is available in France, usual formal. However, they have co-operated with one of the better French history mags, Historia, to produce an illustrated shortened version of the longer history, lots of pics, bite size chunks etc, which I think is pretty good for people trying to understand basic French history - I've bought some for the History School. But I thought that it may help those among our happy band who would also like to get a better basic understanding of French history. If anybody wants a copy, full colour, 100 pages covering from years -52 to 1989, Historia Thematique magazine please email me privately and I'll see what I can do to help. Regards Tony Fuller

Marc, Hmmm .. I have always wanted to be in attendance at a good rollicking auto de fete.. an ancestor was but he was the subject. Stretching from things Huguenot to Cathars may be the cause of an affect .. i.e. the wrath and fire starter kit from the Concierge being the affect :) I have taken note of the book suggested though. > Marc: Ah, but it does meet those requirements. In way perhaps we have yet to > plumb. The traveling methods, routes and techniques employed by the Genevan > exports into the Languedoc owe much to the "Cathar Network". Local knowledge > doesn't die, as they say -- it just becomes... stories. On a recent trip to > NZ, I read *The Yellow Cross: The Story of the Last Cathars' Rebellion > Against the Inquisition, 1290-1329* which I highly recommend.... Hmm now what does one wear to such a public display of firey inferno ? I do not know as my ancestors, who were Huguenot, did not record the clothing for such at the time. Kind Regards, Peter Leroy

Peter: Cathares you say ! How I have longed for further information regarding those chums and those of the lodge (Orient). But that is for another day and another way as it does not meet the requirements of Angela the cutie concierge and this list. Marc: Ah, but it does meet those requirements. In way perhaps we have yet to plumb. The traveling methods, routes and techniques employed by the Genevan exports into the Languedoc owe much to the "Cathar Network". Local knowledge doesn't die, as they say -- it just becomes... stories. On a recent trip to NZ, I read *The Yellow Cross: The Story of the Last Cathars' Rebellion Against the Inquisition, 1290-1329* which I highly recommend....

>> Totally OT , but irresistible... Psst.. it is > Waterloo, Trafalgar... :-[ Wellington was lucky ! The great Corsican was having an "off" day. :) And now I shall resist being OT further before the girl from the other side of the mountains comes down upon me with her wrath, even though she is the most wonderful of concierge. Kind Regards, Peter Leroy

Well hello to all and in particular.. Fuller the wonderfully clever and all round nice guy who has a vast collection, or access to, information on things Huguenot. Cathares you say ! How I have longed for further information regarding those chums and those of the lodge (Orient). But that is for another day and another way as it does not meet the requirements of Angela the cutie concierge and this list. And mention of the little information regarding Huguenot ancestors of the wonderful north western areas of the motherland is difficult to find, unless one actually toddles up there. And that young Meazey is a most definite trip in my near future as Dinan, and surrounds, is where my ever so pitful ancestors originate. Well some of them, the rest tended to remain scattered from St. Malo over s far as Bourges. They were the Catholic version of our clan. Yes in all good families folks.. which prompts me to offer a suggestion. Just because you are searching your Protestante ancestor who may or may not have been Huguenot, doesn't mean that you should not search the records of the Catholic church in the area of interest. We found in our genealogical journey that some ancestors hid the fact that they were supporters of Cauvin, even attended Mass and made significant donations to cover their religious preferences. Made for remaining alive you see. The ones that did make mention of Cauvin, in public, found their options limited. A grand auto de fete was not the prefered option and so many chose the little island off the coast, England. But we all know that side of things, as many on this most wonderful of lists seem to begin their research in Threadneedle or somewhere nearby. For us of protestante ancestry, religious endeavour for reform began in the motherland and so while running around jolly old England is a good step, be prepared to venture back a few years and expect to find little or nothing in English language. I digressed, who would have ever thought that I would do so ? Fuller the Great, remain silent :) And yes of course Peter of the clan Meazey, it was indeed the law courts and that is exactly our clans difficulty. We were once avocat and so if it wasn't the fishermen of the early 90's, that's the last century to you youngsters, then I deeply apologise to casting such bad feeling toward that most wonderful of industry. So.. before I arrive in the beautiful region of Bretange once again, perhaps Peter, we could discuss in private correspondence just where and what information may be available concerning my forebears between say 1550 and 1650 in and around Dinan. See folks this list can be very handy for researching our Protestante ancestors as you just never know who may be a subscriber and where first contact may take you. If I was a new adventurer in things HWE, I would begin by searching the achives, as much has been written and stored over the years of this list on subjects varied. It can save time, effort and much typing questions for which there are already answers. I shall once again sit and ponder, peruse little notes and keep my eye on matters HWE once again. Kind Regards, Peter Leroy

Soir Folks, Protestantes in a good light ? My goodness me, must be published in Bretagne then :) Hmm then again some there don't have much good to say about the French anywho, no matter the flavour of their religious ancestors. Discovering Reformation / Protestante history in that part of the motherland is difficult at the best of times. Ever since those darn fishermen burnt the library in Rennes, or part thereof. I may just have to contact Fuller the Great and enquire further, in private email of course. Ok ok sweet concierge of all things HWE, I shall now mention, that I too am seeking any information regarding the Protestante (Huguenot) rising in Bretagne from around 1535 to 1600. Which of course is part of French history. Kind Regards, Peter Leroy Tony Fuller said : > one of the reasons that I think this mag is actually good > is that it not only shows the Protestantes in a good - i.e. historically > impartial - light but it even goes as far as explaining what a Huguenot is, > a word as you will know, which is hardly ever used in France.

Hi The following site seems to provide some of the basics for the period which we are mostly concerned with, viz, "France in the 16th/17th Century": http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk Martin Blignaut -- Martin moslins1@fastmail.fm -- http://www.fastmail.fm - I mean, what is it about a decent email service?

Hi folks Not wanting to promote anything commercial here. The Hug Soc of GB and Ireland has decided to have a bit of a clear out of its stock. To that end, it has reduced the price of the first series of CDRoms and is offering 'Strangers to Citizens' at a greatly reduced price for Fellows and non-Fellows alike. No other books included in sale, tho of course, the Society sells other books on Huguenot history. If you send me a private email, I'll give you the details. Regards Tony Fuller Editor, Huguenot Families

Hey Marc, Thanks for bringing that book to our attention. It makes sense to me that these people would have been involved in a variety of occupations. In looking at microfilm from the 1600s I have come across references to strangers in a variety of roles. Some probably weren't Huguenots, but probably some of the others were. And that includes a family living outside London whose patriarch was listed as a yeoman. Shane > From: "Marc Demarest" <marc@noumenal.com> > Date: 2006/11/16 Thu PM 09:52:35 EST > To: <marc@noumenal.com>, <huguenots-walloons-europe@rootsweb.com> > Subject: Re: [HWE] Occupations > > > Following on the brief conversation about "Huguenot occupations" earlier > this week, I dipped into Robin Gwynn's > pamphlet *The Huguenots of London* (which you can probably find copies of on > abebooks.com or alibris.com) and > came up with this: > > "Not only were the French churches of Threadneedle Street and the Savoy > divided by character, history and type > of worship, but the members of the congregations to the east and west of > London pursued quite different trades..." > > Gwynn goes on to footnote a scholarly article I'd pay money to get my hands > on: > > E.H. Varley, "The Occupations of Protestant Refugees in the Seventeenth > Century," published in > Geography (Volume XXIV), in 1939. > > Then Gwynn whacks up some of Varley's data and produces this chart for the > period 1689-1716: > > Eastern London Western London > > Doctors/ministers 160 86 > Food/drink/clothing 24 207 > Jewellers/clockmakers 8 119 > Merchants 31 100 > Military professions 4 131 > Naval (merchant?) 60 11 > Wigmakers 8 53 > Textile workers 465 44 > All others 81 330 > > It's pretty easy to see how a single-minded focus on Spitalfields might lead > one to conclude Huguenots were disproportionately weavers and clerics. > > Interestingly enough, Gwynn goes on to note that the Savoy Huguenot > communities were > far more assimilative than the the Spitalfields communities both in matters > of > religious ritual and more secular ways, including Anglicization of names. > > It's a great little pamphlet. I recommend it. > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to HUGUENOTS-WALLOONS-EUROPE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hi Marc You're correct, it is a great little volume and it's also available from the Hug Soc of GB - if you want to spend your money on the book, why not spend it with a Huguenot organisation? And watch this space for news of the Hug Soc of GB's forthcoming CDRom and book sale, lots of stuff at reduced prices! Regards Tony Fuller Editor, Huguenot Families

Following on the brief conversation about "Huguenot occupations" earlier this week, I dipped into Robin Gwynn's pamphlet *The Huguenots of London* (which you can probably find copies of on abebooks.com or alibris.com) and came up with this: "Not only were the French churches of Threadneedle Street and the Savoy divided by character, history and type of worship, but the members of the congregations to the east and west of London pursued quite different trades..." Gwynn goes on to footnote a scholarly article I'd pay money to get my hands on: E.H. Varley, "The Occupations of Protestant Refugees in the Seventeenth Century," published in Geography (Volume XXIV), in 1939. Then Gwynn whacks up some of Varley's data and produces this chart for the period 1689-1716: Eastern London Western London Doctors/ministers 160 86 Food/drink/clothing 24 207 Jewellers/clockmakers 8 119 Merchants 31 100 Military professions 4 131 Naval (merchant?) 60 11 Wigmakers 8 53 Textile workers 465 44 All others 81 330 It's pretty easy to see how a single-minded focus on Spitalfields might lead one to conclude Huguenots were disproportionately weavers and clerics. Interestingly enough, Gwynn goes on to note that the Savoy Huguenot communities were far more assimilative than the the Spitalfields communities both in matters of religious ritual and more secular ways, including Anglicization of names. It's a great little pamphlet. I recommend it.

Hallo everybody, does anybody know anything about the LA ROSE living around 1640 in Hannover, later on in Hannover, Hameln and Celle Almut from Osnabrück

Hi Shane I always think that the occupation thing is something of a red herring. Like 'Huguenot names' 'Huguenot occupations' are somewhat spurious - whilst many were weavers, the majority were not. The only company legally allowed to work in Aleppo was the Honourable Company of Merchants Trading into the East Indies - the Honourable East India Company. There are likely to be records for him if he did work for the Company - it's my other specialist research area - but the records are not available online and can only be searched in person or by hiring a researcher. I'm actually in the BL in early December - send me details and I'll have a quick look in the index for you. Regards Tony Fuller Editor, Huguenot Families

<SNIP> Tony sez: "I always think that the occupation thing is something of a red herring. Like 'Huguenot names' 'Huguenot occupations' are somewhat spurious - whilst many were weavers, the majority were not." </SNIP> IMHO, and looking at the sociohistorical data (of which there is a fair bit in academic publications), Tony is right. One of the reasons why Huguenot emigrants are associated in popular histories and studies with certain trades -- weaving, silversmithing -- is that (a) Huguenots of these backgrounds were studied by historians at various points because (b) organized attempts were made to woo Huguenots with those skills to various locales at particular times -- weaving in particular, given the "trade secret" knowledge around (a) fabric types and (b) methods of production. Courting a group of Huguenot emigrants from the right part of the low countries and/or Northern France was an excellent way to build particular kinds of industries in one's country/region/county, and (as I've pointed out before) several locales in what is now Germany, and in England, did such things. As far as the general data sets will let us speculate, there was no particular affinity between any trade and Huguenots. Huguenots were far more likely than Catholics to be involved in trades associated with urban concentration and capital formation, but (a) that correlation could indicate "lawyer" or "mechanic" (i.e., engineer) as much as "silversmith" or "weaver" and (b) that reflects the fundamental link between money and literacy (on the one hand) and Huguenot predisposition on the other. Scripture in the vernacular and a (pseudo) democratic form of local church organization are only of interest to people who can read, who understand power and who want to exercise both.

Hallo Martin, Thank you for your help - it is very much appreciated. With my TOUCHARDs I seem to have the problem of too much information in France - I can't see the "hedge/copse/bush" for the trees :o) Conversely, with my TABOURDEUXs - too little information. Ahh well, I am off to the Hug Soc in London on Wednesday - my first trip - they have a research file of TABOURDEUXs and VIALs that I am hoping to be able to make copies of. Suzie Morley -----Original Message----- Jean Tosti's views on the origin of the surname TOUCHARD may be roughly translated as follows: TOUCHARD - name that is found in the Sarthe [also in 86,37] TOUCHART [60,61] is a variation There are two possible origins: either...[someone who guides draught oxen] or a toponym derived from "touche" [hedge/copse,bush] Morlet suggests that it is a nickname for an aggressive and/or violent man.