And just how does one know that they were all wiped from the face of the earth ? Many may have hidden and procreated :) Kind Regards, Peter Leroy > Weren't they all wiped out ? So... no descendants, no genealogy ? > I'm afraid Simon de Montfort had the last word on all :-)

And as well you should.. many may not have even approached that early part of the genealogy as yet, when they do..what then Rootsweb ? Kind Regards, Peter Leroy > Been refused Message Board on grounds of 'no proven genealogical interest' - > am appealing of course. > > Tony F

Type in "the Heretics"? Hmmmm... Did that and I'm sure it isn't Heretics of Dune; nor the "Courtier and the Heretic" dealing with Liebniz and Spinoza... the list goes on and there are all types of heretics but there doesn't appear to to be anything related to the Cathars. If anyone has a possible author, it would be helpful. In so far as relationship between the Cathars and the Huguenots, I can only quote my grandmother, Elizabeth Trezevant DesChamps, who explained the Cathars and Huguenots to me years ago by saying :"both were French; both believed in their faith and both opposed the religious powers that existed in their times." If I can be of any assistance with a list concerning the Cathars, please Let me know as there has long been a legend on the other side of my family that they were descended in part from Cathar children that escaped.... I've done nothing with it but would love to try. A few years ago, I was able to build and source a quite lengthy genealogy based upon what was originaly just such a "legend". Elizabeth "Carol J. Markillie" <markilli@inreach.com> wrote: Hello Martin: There is a book entitled THE HERETICS that has references to a group of Cathars in Northern France just about the time of the Albigensian Crusades - I suspect some of the Flemish knights were involved in clearing out the Cathars in Languedoc but there is no particular reference to any individuals, towns in the north, etc. If you lookup THE HERETICS on Amazon.com you can probably get the author's name. I moved recently and my files are in more disorder than usual. Happy Holidays - Carol Markillie Washington State, USA ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to HUGUENOTS-WALLOONS-EUROPE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I believe the perfects (leaders) were all either killed or imprisoned, but that still left people who escaped, family members and other catheres.

Cathares were of course not protestants, but they were heretics as the early protestants were. Also they were living in the same areas as some of the later protestants. Perhaps there were some similarities in peoples minds, who made them easier thinking in a "peasant way" and not "roman catholic way". It is a very interesting subject. Are we given permission to continue on that? Friendly greetings Hanne Thorup Koudal Denmark

Hello, all -- Sorry I'm late to this discussion of Cathar(e)s, everyone. I've been preoccupied with other aspects of my life this week and have only now had time for a quick look at all the posts on the subject so far. I may have missed some of the discussion so if I repeat what's already been said, my apologies. As some of you have mentioned, this subject is not the focus of HWE but, nevertheless, it has come up on the list before. That was several years ago (2000-2002, I think). At that time, it was discussed briefly as befits a topic not relating to Huguenots/Walloons. If anyone wants to find those past messages, though, look in the HWE Searchable Archives, using Cathar as a keyword. For those of you who want to learn about Catharisme in more depth, a search engine should find the info for you. For example, there's quite a bit here: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathares. However, it's en français. Anyway, if anyone wants to continue this discussion, you'll have to relate it in some way to Huguenots/Walloons. As others have already pointed out, there is no relationship between these two groups so perhaps that should be the approach to take, eg. the Cathars were such-and-such, but on the other hand, unlike the Cathars, the Huguenot/Walloons were.....etc. If we continue further into a lengthy discussion of only Cathars, then this becomes the Cathar list. Which it obviously is not. (I say all this at the risk of being labelled, as I see I was a few days ago, as a watch dog with a whip. On the other hand, it appears from my quick scan of incoming messages that others have recently called me cute, sweet and wonderful so I guess that balances things out <smile>. In reality, I am somewhere in the middle of those two extremes of opinion.) Giselle's question about whether there is another forum (ie, mailing list or message board) where one can discuss Cathars was a good one. As was Tony's quick action to establish such a Board on the Rootsweb site. I was able to find only a few mentions of Cathars on some French surname Message Boards using the search engine here, but no actual Board or list for the topic of Cathars. http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec/script/main/rw I also checked the mailing lists on John Fuller's more comprehensive website (Genealogy Resources on the Internet) here http://www.rootsweb.com/~jfuller/gen_mail.html but again came up with nothing. I also cannot understand Rootsweb turning down a Cathar Board. If snake handlers living in one small part of the planet can have a Board (and they do, see here: http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec?htx=board&r=rw&p=topics.religious.ekysnakeh listed under the topic of Religions and Religious) then why not Cathars?. Rootsweb has all sorts of mailing lists & boards on all sorts of topics, by the way. Religions and Religious is just of them. See here for Board topics: http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec?htx=board&r=rw&p=topics and here for lists (scroll past the International lists category) http://lists.rootsweb.com/. Lastly, if anyone needs it, info on how to access the HWE archives is here: http://www.island.net/~andreav/archives.htm. So, to sum up, carry on with Cathar(e)s **as long as you can relate it to the list topic of Huguenots/Walloons**. If you can't, then please save it for an upcoming (hopefully) Cathar Message Board. By the way, I really appreciated that, in all the recent chat, practically everyone took the time to delete previous messages in their replies. Bravo! Andrea (HWE list concierge)

Need names? -----Original Message----- From: huguenots-walloons-europe-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:huguenots-walloons-europe-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of fuller.tony Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2006 11:54 AM To: huguenots-walloons-europe@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [HWE] Cathares and other Heretics Hi folks Been refused Message Board on grounds of 'no proven genealogical interest' - am appealing of course. Tony F ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to HUGUENOTS-WALLOONS-EUROPE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

fuller.tony a écrit : > And of course the Cathares were NOT the forerunners of Protestantisme or the > Eglise Reformee - their beliefs were so dissimilar to those of the > Protestantes as to make them almost a religion/culte on their own which is > of course, why the Catholic north of the country and Papal interests > attacked them. > There were other reasons which could be summed up as Parisian imperialism or just greed but I really don't think this is a subject to be discussed at length on this list. As Tony says the Cathares have nothing to do with the Huguenots, they are certainly not precursors in any way. If we let them in, we have to deal with the Lollards, various minor heresies such as Eon de l'Etoile and his mates, in fact anybody at all who fell foul of Rome for whatever reason. Why not witchcraft, while we're at it ? My personal view is that anything pre-Luther is off-topic (except of course the ancestors of Huguenot families). HTH Peter

As we say out here in California...Yahoo! Sorry Andrea. Giselle --------------------------------------- Hi folks Apologies to Andrea in advance for this one ........ OK, put me money where me mouth is and have applied to Rootsweb for Message Board and Forum called CatharesandHeretics - more to follow when I hear from them, Rootsweb that is, not the Heretics. Regards Tony Fuller

Hello Martin: There is a book entitled THE HERETICS that has references to a group of Cathars in Northern France just about the time of the Albigensian Crusades - I suspect some of the Flemish knights were involved in clearing out the Cathars in Languedoc but there is no particular reference to any individuals, towns in the north, etc. If you lookup THE HERETICS on Amazon.com you can probably get the author's name. I moved recently and my files are in more disorder than usual. Happy Holidays - Carol Markillie Washington State, USA

G'morning Tony, I'd love to see a Cathares forum. Certainly there are enough Cathar sites that are not forums to indicate sufficient interest. Is there anything I can do to help? Off site I am gembry@edd.ca.gov or coconut1@cox.net Giselle Embry -----Original Message----- From: huguenots-walloons-europe-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:huguenots-walloons-europe-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of fuller.tony Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 1:15 PM To: huguenots-walloons-europe@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [HWE] French History/Cathares Hi Giselle Don't know how Andrea feels about Cathares but if there isn't a Forum, I'd be happy to set one up - was talking to people today about Rennes-Chateau and the like and it's a big thing down this end of France. The problem is tying the Crusade/Inquisition into French history, especially from a genealogical viewpoint. If people think that reading copies or even better, the originals in middle French is difficult, reading the Inquisition material in the original is even more difficult - still lots of transcriptions about now so they would help. And of course the Cathares were NOT the forerunners of Protestantisme or the Eglise Reformee - their beliefs were so dissimilar to those of the Protestantes as to make them almost a religion/culte on their own which is of course, why the Catholic north of the country and Papal interests attacked them. As for a Latin dictionary, if you look on one of the book seller sites - Amazon or the like, should get one there. If not try an Italian dictionary, can often help. Regards Tony Fuller ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to HUGUENOTS-WALLOONS-EUROPE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Anybody know if there were Cathar sympathisers in northern France? What a low profile they would have had to keep! Martin Blignaut -- Martin moslins1@fastmail.fm -- http://www.fastmail.fm - Or how I learned to stop worrying and love email again

Hi Giselle Don't know how Andrea feels about Cathares but if there isn't a Forum, I'd be happy to set one up - was talking to people today about Rennes-Chateau and the like and it's a big thing down this end of France. The problem is tying the Crusade/Inquisition into French history, especially from a genealogical viewpoint. If people think that reading copies or even better, the originals in middle French is difficult, reading the Inquisition material in the original is even more difficult - still lots of transcriptions about now so they would help. And of course the Cathares were NOT the forerunners of Protestantisme or the Eglise Reformee - their beliefs were so dissimilar to those of the Protestantes as to make them almost a religion/culte on their own which is of course, why the Catholic north of the country and Papal interests attacked them. As for a Latin dictionary, if you look on one of the book seller sites - Amazon or the like, should get one there. If not try an Italian dictionary, can often help. Regards Tony Fuller

Good Morning Readers, I have questions today. Question #1: I am looking for the most appropriate Latin dictionary that would help me to translate Latin from the 1200-1400's used in the Inquisitions in southern France and specifically in the book, Processus Bernardi Delitiousi: The Trial of Fr. Bernard Delicieux, 3 September - 8 December 1319. Question #2: What is the verdict then, no talk of Cathares? Is there context in which it would be considered appropriate to discuss Cathares here? Or is there another site where one can discuss Cathares? Thanks y'all, Giselle Embry EMBRY, EMBRINI, EMBRI, AMBRI (...still wondering why there's an ancient EMBRY town and decimated Chateau d'Embry in the Pas de Calais but all the Embry people are in the Aude. I guess that would make my questions #3).

----- Original Message ----- From: <peter@leroy.ws> To: <huguenots-walloons-europe@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 5:59 PM Subject: Re: [HWE] French History (OT) > >>> Totally OT , but irresistible... > > Psst.. it is > >> Waterloo, Trafalgar... :-[ > > Wellington was lucky ! > > The great Corsican was having an "off" day. :) > > And now I shall resist being OT further before the girl from the other > side of the mountains comes down upon me with her wrath, even though she > is the most wonderful of concierge. > > Kind Regards, > Peter Leroy > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > HUGUENOTS-WALLOONS-EUROPE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hi Theo, Thank you for the info. Langemark does feature in our history, but it was where my grand father fought during WW1. Wouldn't that be another coincidence if his it is where his ancestor, to whom his father changed his name, was born. Suzanne -----Original Message----- From: huguenots-walloons-europe-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:huguenots-walloons-europe-bounces@rootsweb.com]On Behalf Of Theo Snyders Sent: 24 November 2006 14:46 To: huguenots-walloons-europe@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [HWE] French History Hello Suzanne, Could your Langekerk be Langemark? Try for instance www.viamichelin.fr and look for Langemark and Ieper in Belgium. The distance of Langemark is about 13 km north of Ieper. Theo ----- Original Message ----- From: "R. Bell" <richard.bell@tiscali.fr> To: <huguenots-walloons-europe@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 12:13 PM Subject: Re: [HWE] French History > Hi, > > The e-mail regarding the Bobo family has given me a vital clue on my own > research. Thank you very much. One of my ancestors called Pasteur Roland > Touzeau was born in the Saintonge according to his records after he fled > to the Channel Islands during the persecution. I know he was born in 1649 > but not where. > > Roland's grandson married a Marie de Grave in Leicester Fields in London. > In turn their great grandson by marriage called John W Jones (my great > Grand father) went on to be the Comptroller General for whole of the UK > Customs Service with the princely salary of £1000pa in 1900. He changed > his name back to de Grave to acknowledge his Huguenot roots. > > But, back to the point. It is bizarre, but we retired to the > Charente-Maritime department of France 3 years ago before I started the > research and now I know of course that that is the modern name for > Saintonge. I HAVE RETURNED TO MY ROOTS UNWITTINGLY! Couarde is only > 100Km's away so will visit it tout de suite to look at Jean Rivierre's > book. > > Also I am looking for info on a Jacques de Grave who born what is now > Holland/Belgium in Lang(u)ekerke 1670. However, there is no such place > now. Family legend has it that he was born in Ypres. > > Suzanne de Grave > e-mail - richard.bell@tiscali.fr ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to HUGUENOTS-WALLOONS-EUROPE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hello Suzanne, Could your Langekerk be Langemark? Try for instance www.viamichelin.fr and look for Langemark and Ieper in Belgium. The distance of Langemark is about 13 km north of Ieper. Theo ----- Original Message ----- From: "R. Bell" <richard.bell@tiscali.fr> To: <huguenots-walloons-europe@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 12:13 PM Subject: Re: [HWE] French History > Hi, > > The e-mail regarding the Bobo family has given me a vital clue on my own > research. Thank you very much. One of my ancestors called Pasteur Roland > Touzeau was born in the Saintonge according to his records after he fled > to the Channel Islands during the persecution. I know he was born in 1649 > but not where. > > Roland's grandson married a Marie de Grave in Leicester Fields in London. > In turn their great grandson by marriage called John W Jones (my great > Grand father) went on to be the Comptroller General for whole of the UK > Customs Service with the princely salary of £1000pa in 1900. He changed > his name back to de Grave to acknowledge his Huguenot roots. > > But, back to the point. It is bizarre, but we retired to the > Charente-Maritime department of France 3 years ago before I started the > research and now I know of course that that is the modern name for > Saintonge. I HAVE RETURNED TO MY ROOTS UNWITTINGLY! Couarde is only > 100Km's away so will visit it tout de suite to look at Jean Rivierre's > book. > > Also I am looking for info on a Jacques de Grave who born what is now > Holland/Belgium in Lang(u)ekerke 1670. However, there is no such place > now. Family legend has it that he was born in Ypres. > > Suzanne de Grave > e-mail - richard.bell@tiscali.fr

Hi, The e-mail regarding the Bobo family has given me a vital clue on my own research. Thank you very much. One of my ancestors called Pasteur Roland Touzeau was born in the Saintonge according to his records after he fled to the Channel Islands during the persecution. I know he was born in 1649 but not where. Roland's grandson married a Marie de Grave in Leicester Fields in London. In turn their great grandson by marriage called John W Jones (my great Grand father) went on to be the Comptroller General for whole of the UK Customs Service with the princely salary of £1000pa in 1900. He changed his name back to de Grave to acknowledge his Huguenot roots. But, back to the point. It is bizarre, but we retired to the Charente-Maritime department of France 3 years ago before I started the research and now I know of course that that is the modern name for Saintonge. I HAVE RETURNED TO MY ROOTS UNWITTINGLY! Couarde is only 100Km's away so will visit it tout de suite to look at Jean Rivierre's book. Also I am looking for info on a Jacques de Grave who born what is now Holland/Belgium in Lang(u)ekerke 1670. However, there is no such place now. Family legend has it that he was born in Ypres. Suzanne de Grave e-mail - richard.bell@tiscali.fr -----Original Message----- From: huguenots-walloons-europe-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:huguenots-walloons-europe-bounces@rootsweb.com]On Behalf Of ChuckBobo@aol.com Sent: 24 November 2006 01:14 To: huguenots-walloons-europe@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [HWE] French History Tony and all,below is a source which has helped greatly in researching our BOBO family in France. We are still at a loss in finding where our Gabriel BAUBEAU was from 1685 after the revocation of the Edict of Nantes and 1700 when Gabriel was found on a land patent in Virginia. I have a theory, unproven, that Gabriel escaped to England and hid out with the SPENCER family. I found records in Forbes magazine that a bust or photo of the Third Earl SPENCER's first in long line of given names was BOBO, but the SPENCER genealogy does not mention that name. Upon arriving in Virginia with a group of Englishmen, Gabriel BAUBEAU quickly was a witness on a will in which Elizabeth SPENCER WHITE gave land to the sons by her first marriage. Soon afterwards he and Elizabeth were married and her land became known as BUBBOE's Plantation. My unproven theory is that the SPENCER family sent Gabriel to Virginia to marry the widow. They had one son Spencer BOBO before Gabriel disappeared an Elizabeth was again managing the plantation. We later located Gabriel now BOBO, in Charles Co., MD, and with another family. If anyone can furnish clues to this puzzle in either France or the U.S., please let me know. This is not a Huguenot fact, but Pope Celestine III was Hyacinth BOBO (BOBONI, BOBONE and a part of the ORSINI family, and his brother Ursus BOBO is supposed to have taken the family name to Gaul (France) where it became BEAUBEAU. Have I worked in enough French and Huguenot information into the posting so that I do not get 30 lashes from our watch dog? “Dictionaire Des Familles du Poitou, 1680 – 1780”, a compilation of Huguenot records representing the life work of Pasteur Jean RIVIERRE, were copied from his notes in 1957. The three spellings, BAUBEAU, BEAUBEAU, BOBEAU were found intermixed in “Volume 1, Aage – Brillaud” Charles H. (Chuck) BOBO BOBO Family Assn. 3101 Thurman Rd., No. H-22 HUNTSVILLE, AL 35805 E-Mail: ChuckBobo@aol.com or FamilyBobo@aol.com Web Site: _www.FamilyBobo.org_ (http://www.familybobo.org/) Interactive Web Site: _www.Bobo-Family-News.info_ (http://www.bobo-family-news.info/) ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to HUGUENOTS-WALLOONS-EUROPE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Tony and all,below is a source which has helped greatly in researching our BOBO family in France. We are still at a loss in finding where our Gabriel BAUBEAU was from 1685 after the revocation of the Edict of Nantes and 1700 when Gabriel was found on a land patent in Virginia. I have a theory, unproven, that Gabriel escaped to England and hid out with the SPENCER family. I found records in Forbes magazine that a bust or photo of the Third Earl SPENCER's first in long line of given names was BOBO, but the SPENCER genealogy does not mention that name. Upon arriving in Virginia with a group of Englishmen, Gabriel BAUBEAU quickly was a witness on a will in which Elizabeth SPENCER WHITE gave land to the sons by her first marriage. Soon afterwards he and Elizabeth were married and her land became known as BUBBOE's Plantation. My unproven theory is that the SPENCER family sent Gabriel to Virginia to marry the widow. They had one son Spencer BOBO before Gabriel disappeared an Elizabeth was again managing the plantation. We later located Gabriel now BOBO, in Charles Co., MD, and with another family. If anyone can furnish clues to this puzzle in either France or the U.S., please let me know. This is not a Huguenot fact, but Pope Celestine III was Hyacinth BOBO (BOBONI, BOBONE and a part of the ORSINI family, and his brother Ursus BOBO is supposed to have taken the family name to Gaul (France) where it became BEAUBEAU. Have I worked in enough French and Huguenot information into the posting so that I do not get 30 lashes from our watch dog? “Dictionaire Des Familles du Poitou, 1680 – 1780”, a compilation of Huguenot records representing the life work of Pasteur Jean RIVIERRE, were copied from his notes in 1957. The three spellings, BAUBEAU, BEAUBEAU, BOBEAU were found intermixed in “Volume 1, Aage – Brillaud” Charles H. (Chuck) BOBO BOBO Family Assn. 3101 Thurman Rd., No. H-22 HUNTSVILLE, AL 35805 E-Mail: ChuckBobo@aol.com or FamilyBobo@aol.com Web Site: _www.FamilyBobo.org_ (http://www.familybobo.org/) Interactive Web Site: _www.Bobo-Family-News.info_ (http://www.bobo-family-news.info/)

Totally OT , but irresistible... The French humorist Alphonse Allais (late 19th century) had a lovely story about going to London and finding the English most peculiar. He couldn't understand why they named all their public squares and railway stations after famous defeats... Waterloo, Trafalgar... :-[ Lovely man, well worth a read. Some of his stuff has been translated by Miles Kington, look out for it. ATB Peter