You certainly seem to know the area. None-the-less, this whole area, by whatever name, was Cathar. Giselle At the risk of being pedantic, could I point out that Toulouse is in the Haute Garonne departement (No 31in the French system), not in the Aude. The Aude (no11) is on the Mediterranean coast, between the Herault (34) and the Pyrenees Orientales (66). These 3 departements are 5 of the ones that make up the Languedoc region. I mention the departement numbers because the French record system seems to use them quite often, in my experience. >From my limited knowledge of the Cathars, there was a siege of Carcassonne, Aude during the Albigensian crusade and a massacre in Beziers, Herault. The watchword at Beziers and I may be paraphrasing was 'Kill them all, God will recognise his own'. Regards, Jennie researching TUTIN and HAIRSINE/HERSIN ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to HUGUENOTS-WALLOONS-EUROPE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi to all -- In one of her posts yesterday, Shirley said -- < BTW there is an Australian Huguenot Society now. > Shirley, thanks for that info. Are there any other details you can share with us about this Society? For example, when was it formed and is there a website? How does one join? Is there a newsletter or meetings or a members' interests surname list? I'm sure anything you can tell us would be appreciated, particularly by subscribers who live in your corner of the planet. Thanks and regards, Andrea

Thank you, Tony, I hadn't come across that one before. The Big Bang theory of Christianity - would this be a variant on TS Elliot's "This is the way the World ends - Not with a whimper..." - or does it derive from astronomy ? Makes a change from Creationism anyway. Another heresy to write up for Wikipedia... I have checked Martin's article. Very interesting. I'm not too sure about the bits on the Cathare attitude to recreational sex - can't quite see how this fits in with the Huguenot world-view as promulgated by Geneva. Nor with genealogy in the strict sense, taking yourself out of the gene pool seems a bit contradictory, but there you go. I have a vivid image of the deacons of Calvaria Calvinistic Methodist in Twynyrodyn trying to get their heads around this one :-$ . Should keep them out of mischief for a while. So some Cathares were weavers, some weavers spread protestant ideas several hundred years later... therefore... Therefore nothing. This is another "silly-gism" - it looks logical at first sight but means nothing. Some cats are black, my dog is black... so my dog is a cat ? Non-French readers won't have come across this one - the socialist candidate for the next presidential elections, Mme Ségolène Royale, was recently attacked with the damning phrase : "Being a woman is not a political programme". I would suggest that not being a Catholic doesn't make you a Protestant and that being a weaver is not proof of any particular belief-system. There, I feel better for that. Have a nice day everybody, Peter (the Younger)

Hi folks Sad to hear that Nick has died, I did some work with him a couple of years ago - there seems to be a Nick in every country that has a strong genealogical hobby/research base, certainly a couple in UK and one in France, into just about everything genealogical. Was Luther a Huguenot - well, obviously not. For a start he wasn't French and he wasn't Calvinist so two out of two against ain't bad. I think the 'was Jesus a Christian' analogy is the best one - course he wasn't and neither were his followers, like Calvin and Zwingli, followers of the Reformation, weren't Lutherans. It's sort of like the people that invent the firework then light the first blue touch paper and then stand there waiting for the fireworks - they may be the people that invented the firework but usually they're too close or dead when their followers see the final outcome 10 years on after somebody invented the coloured bits to replace the big bang. Well, that's how I see it anyway fizzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz ............ Regards Tony Fuller

Hello list At the risk of being pedantic, could I point out that Toulouse is in the Haute Garonne departement (No 31in the French system), not in the Aude. The Aude (no11) is on the Mediterranean coast, between the Herault (34) and the Pyrenees Orientales (66). These 3 departements are 5 of the ones that make up the Languedoc region. I mention the departement numbers because the French record system seems to use them quite often, in my experience. >From my limited knowledge of the Cathars, there was a siege of Carcassonne, Aude during the Albigensian crusade and a massacre in Beziers, Herault. The watchword at Beziers and I may be paraphrasing was 'Kill them all, God will recognise his own'. Regards, Jennie researching TUTIN and HAIRSINE/HERSIN

Hello Andrea It seems you have found the bad thing about the internet. Information can be wrong, so we have to sort all the pieces of information using our knowledge and brains. Sometimes we find excellent quality,and sometimes not. Hopefully noone belives, what Mr. Hall tries to tell about Martin Luther. But I am sure, we all try to do our best, when we put something into the internet. Most important is, that we can learn from doing our mistakes! Friendly greetings Hanne Thorup Koudal

Ok then to return to the real objective of the exercise ............. CHAUVIGNY - Only one hit in the 80 odd documents/books etc that I can search electronically (UK/US stuff that is) - and that seems to be a place in the Vienne rather than a person! And nothing in the first 26 volumes of Proceedings though some vaguely sounding, if the wind is blowing from the right direction, hard of hearing clerical mistake type sound alike perhaps names do appear. More to follow on the French sources tomorrow ............. Just to keep Peter the senior (i.e. longer serving) wondering. As ever Tony Fuller

Hi The source, for what it's worth, of information for possible Cathar/Protestant/weaver connections may be found shortly after entering "Protestants and Cathars" in the Google search box. http://www.languedoc-france.info/12_cathars.htm Were they so bizarre, those Cathars, that some Huguenot descendants recoil from any suggestion of possible linkage? Who tamed the radical weavers? Martin Blignaut -- Martin moslins1@fastmail.fm -- http://www.fastmail.fm - The professional email service

Hmmmmm > Ok then to return to the real objective of the exercise ............. Oh ..you mean Huguenot/Walloon stuff ? > CHAUVIGNY - Only one hit in the 80 odd documents/books etc that I can search Umm don't think they were actually Huguenot nor Walloon ..but once their descendent married in our clan maybe they were. How's that for a stretch ? > More to follow on the French sources tomorrow ............. Tomorrow !!!!!!!! Hmm .... I shall return after tomorrow then... just to make Tony wait longer for my response to his response to my enquiry. Kind Regards, Peter Leroy

Martin a écrit : > Anybody want to claim an unbroken line of heretical weavers as > ancestors to keep us on-topic? > > > Martin Blignaut > Now that would be a thread :-) References to the article would be helpful.

Hi I have been following this thread with bemusement and interets. My Paternal ancestors were weavers in Picardy, some crossed into modern Belgium and settled there. others post Revocation fled to Netherlands and England. Can we please kep a clear definition of Huguenot please. Cathars are Cathars Not Huguenots, Albergensians were Albergensians NOT Huguenots. Luther Has good reason to included in the founiing of the Reformation, but he is NOT a Hugeunot!! How much further back do you want to go , those arguing for reform in England during the reign of Edward 111 !!!!. (Sorry can't remember name off hand) (Artificial laugh!!) What ever the cut off point , and some of our ancestors came in the reigns of Henry VIII don't forget. Please lets keep to the shaing of information relatiing to Huguenot ancestors regards David Hanchard

Hi Tony, I would be very interested to hear of a baptism or marriage register anywhere before the early 1500s - here in Brittany the earliest are in the 1520s. As for Inquisition sources on the Cathares, or the Templars - or Jews and Moors in Spain for that matter - they need to be handled with great care. About as reliable as Stalinist show trials... The idea that anyone could trace their family back to the early 13th century on the basis of this sort of evidence strikes me as exceedingly optimistic. Proving that a family name was current in a particular area is of course another and much simpler matter. Depends what you're after. BTW, Old Peter (Leroy) seems to think I said Luther was a Huguenot. That is of course not what I said - I merely suggested that the notion of Reformed Church/Protestantism before the time of Luther was nonsense. The logic that says "Cathares were heretics. Huguenots were heretics. Therefore Cathares were (proto-)Huguenots" is frankly garbage. I think it's called a "silly-gism" isn't it ? ATB Peter ;-)

However, there does seem to be a great deal of knowledge here about the impossibility of tracing Catheres... and just to leave the subject behind, could someone provide the source(s) of their information? It is possible to trace Cathares. Toulouse, a center of Cathares, is rich with records. I will not say more here as it is apparent that there are those who rightly do not want to hear about the subject of Cathares on the HWE site. Just let it be known that there is as much justification for a Cathares site as for any other. If you doubt this, visit the Cathares site when it is up. Giselle EMBRY

Sorry about that...there was a parrot chewing on my computer cables (Really) and in my haste to loosen his grip, I wrote promulgation (by the former Navarre) instead of revocation... I do know the difference but perhaps the bird was in the mental grip of that Medici woman ... However, there does seem to be a great deal of knowledge here about the impossibility of tracing Catheres... and just to leave the subject behind, could someone provide the source(s) of their information? On a different thought...does anyone have any knowledge of the Trezevant family in and before Chanseuille en Baise? Elizabeth "fuller.tony" <fuller.tony@wanadoo.fr> wrote: Hi Elizabeth Need to sort out the Promulgation (by Henri IV, 13 Avril 1598) and the Revocation (by Louis XIV, 16 April 1685) or will cause untold confusion to our research chums. I just can't see the need or the reasons for restricting a definition of Huguenot to specific years and only French - as you rightly say, it excludes all those refugees pre 1685, the Walloons, the Cammisards and the other heretics - so a club can be more exclusive? To me - simple East London lad that I am - Huguenots is Huguenots. Regards Tony Fuller ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to HUGUENOTS-WALLOONS-EUROPE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Luther was a roman cahtolic monk, who lived in a monastery and who reformed the relion to a certain point, wich was just acurately acceptable to kings and other non-clergical leaders. He was "only in opposition to the pope and roman catholics", but that could be dangerous enogh at his time. He married a non, who had left her comvent with other nuns. So both Lutherans and French Reformed Ministers did marry. The difference between Lutherans and French Reformed are not so big in our time, as it has been before. Calvin and Zwingly reformed the christian religion to a more advanced level. All are christians: roman catholics, french reformed (Jean Calvin/ Huldrich Zwingly/Martin Bucer). The Waloons were Bucero-Calvinistic reformed, why their influence came from Strassbourg. Some of us have ancestors, who were clearly Huguenots and other ancestors, who were strictly Bucero-Calvinistic reforemed Walloons. F.ex. my ancestor Isabeau MARTIN-TURBIÈRE, who was livning in Abriès, Queyras, Dauphine, and died in Germany was Huguenot. She was married 1660-1668 in Abriès to Blaise BEC, born in Abriès, who probably died there between 1679-1688. Eugen Bellon: "Scattered to all the Winds (1685-1720)", page 107: "Isabeau Bec, born Martin-Tubière" passing through Langenzell. Eugen Bellon: "Scattered to all the Winds (1685-1720)", page 162: "Isabeau Bec, born Martin-Tubière, widow of Blaise Bec from Abriès. On May 23, 1687, she passes through Frankfort with her children Pierre and Geoffry and the daughters Marie, who married one Jean Pez, and Catharine, as well as the relatives Jean Bec and Marguerite Bec (all from Abriès). These Bec families came via Hofgeismar to Schwabendort and all settled in Schwabendorf " (210 & 241). Another ancestor Anthoine LEFEVRE, was born abt. 1647 in Fleurbaix, Pays d'Alleu, now France, died 31.05.1717 in Walmow, Battin, Brandenburg. He married (I: um 1672 in Mutterstadt, Pfalz) Jagueline GOFFEAU (Daughter of Guillaume GOFFAU and Jeanne DESPARON), born 1640, died 1675-1679 in Germany and (II: um 1679 in Germany) Marie Noë (Daughter of Jean NOÉ, born Rongy, Tournai, Hainaut, died bef. 1684 in Oppau, Pfalz and Peironne STECLORON, born 1645 in Jans Cappel, died 30.12.1700 in Walmow, Battin Brandenburg, born um 1659 in Oppau, Pfalz, died 08.09.1719 in Walmow. These people were Walloons and can be found in "Fiches Wallones". But can we be sure, that only Wallones were mentioned in "Fiches Wallones", or could Hugenots, who passed through Netherlands and stayed long enough to be a member of a church also be mentioned in "Fiches Wallones" de Leide. For some ancestors, we do not know for sure, if they were Huguenots or Walloons. If we are going to say "Christians, who were not Roman Catholic, Greek Catholic, Jews or Lutherans, but eighter Huguenots or Walloons" the daily life language becomes complicated. Or can we make a new world and simple called the unsure persons "Walnuts", wich would be better than "Hugueloons". This can't of course be done. The German Huguenot Society and The Danish Huguenot Society has used the world Huguenot for all - but of course we know the difference between Huguenots, who left after the revocation of the Nantes Edict, and the Walloons, who left the Spanish Netherlands. It is only the research of the ancestors, who can eventually show if they were the one or the other. We have to search for their "place of origin" over the countryborders, wich makes everything difficult. But were are lucky to have the internet, wich makes our dreams come through by working together in genealogy. Greetings Hanne Thorup Koudal

Hmmm, well, about this Luther...... This morning, I had a bit of time on my hands so I began roaming around on the internet for things Huguenot. Never know what interesting tidbits you're going to find, right? Right..... Seems Luther was a Protestant and a Huguenot after all. Not only that, he was the leader. Yes. No sign of poor Jean in this. He seems to have disappeared. Or, at any rate, not mentioned. How do I know this? Well, as I said, I found it on the internet. And it's presumably been published in a book as well. Must be true, then......Seems to be a very reputable website, too. The Genealogical Society of Victoria Inc. (That's Victoria in Australia.) Here's the relevent paragraph: "The Huguenots were French Protestants persecuted by the Catholic Kings of France from around 1520 until the French Revolution of 1789. Their leader was Martin LUTHER (1483-1546), the first Protestant. Many hundreds of thousands of Huguenots fled from France to countries such as the British Isles, Netherlands, South Africa and America in fear of their lives. Most fled to England in the 1680s and 90s. An estimated 300,000 Australians today are of Huguenot descent." Interesting how many Huguenot descendants ended up in Australia, isn't it? Anyway, this info comes from a review of a book titled Huguenot Hints: A beginner's guide to Huguenot Research in England and France by author Nick Vine Hall. It's available from the website and described as a "research guide to tracing French Huguenot ancestry from the Australian viewpoint." Notice that I said the info came from *a review* of the book, not the book itself. But where did the reviewer get the info? Presumably from the book? See the review for yourself and judge accordingly. The info is here: http://www.familyhistorybookshop.org.au/prod4364.htm If anyone else comes across some interesting Huguenot tidbits, I hope you'll post them. Perhaps one of our several hundred HWE lurkers?? Andrea

Hi Peter What you say is true in part but there is evidence (good evidence as well) that many Cathares lived parallel lives, were registering their baptisms and marriages whilst worshipping outside the Catholic Church. I think that the paperwork isn't Cathare but those who persecuted them, Inquisition etc which is also the basis for a good deal of the material on the Knights Templar. So there is a good historical base for Cathares, names, locations etc - it's whether there is any PROPER genealogical information that is then the issue. As for the Madeleine, Grail and such: ggggggggrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr Regards and not wanting to be too contentious Tony Fuller

Hi Andrea, I took the trouble to have a look at your snake-handlers. I wouldn't want to comment on the beliefs involved - none of my business - but it looks to me as if there is a very obvious genealogical interest for the people involved. The lady trying to trace a magazine article with a photo of her great-grandmother handling a snake - if that's not family history I don't know what is. The Cathares are another question. Starting from the point that they didn't believe in marriage or baptism and left no paperwork whatsoever, anybody who wants to deal with them as family history is on a hiding to nothing. There may have been survivors and they may have left descendants... but how do you prove it ? OK, the Cathares are fun... but are they genealogy ? Why not Knights Templar while we're at it, with a bit of Holy Grail thrown in - must be some descendants of Mary Magdelene out there somewhere :-) HTH Peter (not Leroy, the other one)

Sounds good Elizabeth, I'll file your offer of assistance/interest in the Cathar/es pending email file - and your Granny was right I think. Regards Tony Fuller

Hi Giselle Many of the Perfects were indeed killed or imprisoned but the legends about them (and the similarly reported extermination of the Templars/ Templars leadership) seem now to be discredited with many of those that escaped - and they certainly did - fading back into the countryside. The Huguenot link is that many of the Cathares lived in the area that was later populated by the Huguenot Cammisards - no suggestion of familial links at this time - but it seems that Cathare and Cammisard tactics to enable them to worship were very similar. Regards Tony Fuller Who has started to buy the French magazines on Cathare history now ...........