My grandfather, John Henry CUZNER,was b. in Westbury, Wiltshire in 1872. He told us that the family were Huguenots from Alsace, but some cousins in England were told they were Flemish. The name has always intrigued me, and I was sure it was uncommon and easily traced. Wrong! A genleman in Australia has done a lot of work looking at Cuzners in Westbury and Dilton Marsh, where I've traced back to a Simon Cuzner, b. 1805. Just in Westbury and Dilton Marsh there are many spellings of the name, with the earliest birth date as 1657. The spellings include: Cozner, Cosner, Couzener, Cousiner, Cosouner, Cusner, Cuzener..take your choise! Many years ago at the University of Massachusetts library I found a book of French surnames. I copied out the two that seemed the most relevant, with my high school French of 40 years earlier. COUSINAT,-ZINAT (Midi) <<mets>> (Cuisine) en anc. langue d'oc: designe le cusinier qui preparait les mets comme COUSINIER, fome latinisee COUSINERY, En Saintonge. cousinat designe le houx. ( without accent marks) The other name was COUSIN, which for brevity, I won't copy over, but the explanation did include (Dimin:COUSINIET) Now, we need to remember that most of these people probably entered England without any or very much English and that even in this new century there are parts of the UK, where accents are still very broad. I must accept that CUZNER is a corruption of something! On the IGI I found spellings: COZNER, COWSNER,COUZNER, COUZENER, COZNOR, COZINER.etc. The earliest date for the 43 entries is John COSNER, christening, Mar.9, 1569, Donnington, Sussex. Several of the early entries were christenings at Bath Abbey, Saint Peter and Saint Paul, Bath, Somerset. I am opened to any suggestions. Hope I've sparked an idea, all are welcomed. Martha in misty, moisty Amherst Massachusetts __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail � Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/

Hi Andrea, I've done some more research and it looks like we were both right. I've traced the WHELPDALE name back to Little Salkeld, a tower or castle belonging to that name, built in Cumbria in the early 12 th century. So that ties the name firmly to northern England. On the other hand, the book, London's East End and Traditions states " ... Huguenots came from all walks of life but most had established skills; there were clock and instrument makers who congregated in Clerkenwell ..." and I've the story of my grandmother WHELPDALE's French clockmaker ancestors. Interestingly, I also got as far as the WHELPDALE name being mentioned in "Refuges of the French Revolution: émigrés in London", 1879-1802 by Kirsty Carpenter. Unfortunately, the book is housed in the Book Stacks at the University of Nevada, which is a good hike from Toronto! I'll see if I can hunt it down in the stacks at the University of Toronto. I still think there was WHELPDALE movement between England and France before the Revolution, as it apparently is in the French Dictionary of Surnames. I found a "De Whelpdale" 19th century UK lists, but I think it is more recent. I haven't tracked down anyone who married into the WHELPDALE family as their maiden names don't seem to be listed where I can find them. I have my grandmother Whelpdale's Maltese Cross earrings, although I am questionable about their Huguenot origin. I recently found some letters to my mother from her cousin Charles WHELPDALE written between 1975 and 1978. He remarks on not having seen her for fifty years and over the next three years tells the whereabouts of his siblings. Several were (and may have descendants) in Malta, but there does not seem to be a residential telephone directory on the Web for Malta, so that may be hard to track now. On the other hand, he and his family visited Bethnal Green in the twenties, and the Maltese Cross earrings may have been a gift from his parents to my grandmother then or even earlier. In the Census of 1881 a Charles WHELPDALE is listed (born 1774) and he is probably the father of my uncle Charles. I have a feeling he married a Maltese woman and probably moved there (Charles refers to his own "dusky" looks conflicting with his east London accent). It is obvious that I have more work to do. Upon close examination under a magnifying glass and comparing the Maltese Cross earrings to the photos/illustrations kindly sent me by Jim (James E.) Roberts, there are no rounded points on the ends of the crosses, although there appears to be Fleur De Lys between each section of the cross and the remains of a pendant at the bottom of each earring. At this point, I am going to assume that they are probably less than a hundred years old and were a gift to my grandmother. Geneology is a bit like the game of Bridge. The more you know, the more you learn there is to know. It's a fascinating game, however, and to think, this started with me wanting to find out if my ancestor, Alfred WHELPDALE, survived his transportation to Australia! Thank you for your generous input (all who responded). I shall keep you posted. Lynne Hurry > Hi Lynn -- so much fun (and frustrating too!) speculating about our > ancestors, isn't it?? If they only knew!! You're right that the Whelpdale > name sounds so English -- it does...but then there are those Abraham and > Isaac names that I just have a gut feeling about. Notice that the mother's > name was not mentioned. Perhaps it was her family that was Huguenot or > Walloon and she married into the Whelpdales. I wish you good luck and hope > you'll post again when you learn any new info. Best, Andrea > > -----Original Message----- > From: Lynne Hurry <alacrity@idirect.com> > To: > <HUGUENOTS-WALLOONS-EUROPE-L@rootsweb.com> > Date: August 8, 2000 9:01 PM > Subject: Re: [HWE] WHELPDALE or De WHELPDALE surname > > > >Thank you Jan, Andrea and Jim. I have a lot to learn yet. I bought Cyndi's > >List but havent' really penetrated it yet and haven't fully learned how to > >use the web facilities (obviously). I will get off my surf board and > trying > >reading a book first. I will also try those connects as well. > > > >As far as the WHELPDALE name being Huguenot, I have my doubts as well. The > >name sounds awfully English to me. Maybe it is Walloon, I don't know yet. > I > >have the stories of my French ancestory, a long history of protestantism, > >the Maltese Cross Earrings (with remains of clips for pendant) and a lot of > >questions. I think the name is probably Norman-influenced and I wouldn't > be > >surprise if there was a good deal of WHELPDALE movement between England and > >France in medieval times, somehow got the "de" and then had to hop it back > >to England during the difficulties, dropping the "de" at some point. I > >wouldn't be surprised if a branch went back to France and then had to skip > >back again during the Revolution. Time will undoubtedly tell. Thanks > again > >for your help. > > > >Lynne > > > > > >==== HUGUENOTS-WALLOONS-EUROPE Mailing List ==== > >To unsubscribe (if you are in list mode), > >type and send only the word unsubscribe to: > >HUGUENOTS-WALLOONS-EUROPE-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > >============================== > >Search ALL of RootsWeb's mailing lists in real time. > >RootsWeb's Personalized Mailing Lists: > >http://pml.rootsweb.com/ > >

Think that's exactly what I tried to explain using my "dry words" ... :-) But in my opinion, there should be worked out better one fundamental statement mentioned in the messages below: > ... > However,they are not the same as the Walloons living in present-day > Belgium (who are mostly Catholic). > ... > ... > In modern terms, Wallonia and the Walloons are the French speaking > Catholics (predominantly) of Belgium. > In terms of the Reformation and the persecution of Protestants, the > Walloons were the French-speaking Protestants of the Low Countries > (Netherlands) under Spanish control in the 16th and 17th centuries > along with the Protestant Flemings (i.e. Dutch people). > ... Surely they were/are the same Walloons! Because the *Protestant* French speaking Walloons were forced to flee, only the *Catholic* French speaking Walloons remained! The same happened to the Flemings, as well as to the French. Or is there anybody to state the Huguenots were not he same French living in current France??? Or the German emigrants to the States were not the same Germans living here today? Juergen / Georges ***************************** Jürgen Fritsche (Germany) - --------------------------- genealogy@ib-fritsche.de ***************************** > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- > Von: Andrea Vogel [mailto:andreav@island.net] > Gesendet am: Sonntag, 13. August 2000 19:30 > An: HUGUENOTS-WALLOONS-EUROPE-L@rootsweb.com > Betreff: [HWE] Walloons: modern vs. historical > > Hi, everyone on the list -- > On 12 Aug, Catherine <Tverdov@aol.com> was asking clarification re: > Walloons. I thank her for bringing up this important question and also > thanks to Juergen <genealogy@ib-fritsche.de> for adding his clarifications > that same day. > > This is an important topic in terms of the focus of this list > and I have > been remiss in not posting about it myself -- I'm on "summer time" these > days <g> -- not only for the benefit of new subscribers who may also be > wondering but in particular for those who have posted lately with > inquiries > concerning Belgian research in the 1800's, eg. Jose > <mei@communique.net> who > is researching in Belgium, 1840+. > Here follows some info which, hopefully, clarifies the difference > between modern-day Walloons in Belgium (let's say, from time period > c1800's+) and the Walloons of c1500-1600's. It was first posted > to the list, > with same subject line as this one, on 13 Apr and also before > that on 7 Feb > with subject line -- Walloons: Who were they? > > It is true that there are French-speaking Walloons in present-day > Belgium. But, in discussions on this list, Walloons are viewed in the more > historical perspective of the 1500-1600's. Like the Huguenots (with which > they are often confused and/or combined), they were Protestants who were > persecuted for their beliefs. As a result, they fled their homelands to > other parts of Europe or to the UK, Ireland and/or North America. However, > they are not the same as the Walloons living in present-day > Belgium (who are > mostly Catholic). > > Because I wanted to post information that was entirely correct on this > subject, I wrote to Mr. Stephen Massil <ucylswm@ucl.ac.uk> back in > February. He is the Librarian at the Huguenot Library in London. Here is > his reply to me....... > > I thank you for your enquiry. Herewith the history lesson: > In modern terms, Wallonia and the Walloons are the French speaking > Catholics (predominantly) of Belgium. > In terms of the Reformation and the persecution of Protestants, the > Walloons were the French-speaking Protestants of the Low Countries > (Netherlands) under Spanish control in the 16th and 17th centuries along > with the Protestant Flemings (i.e. Dutch people). > You should make a distinction between those who in England > worshipped at > the Dutch churches (i.e. were Flemings) and those who worshipped at the > Walloon churches: in Norwich, Canterbury, Southampton and indeed London, > except that in London the Walloon Church was almost always cited as the > "French Church" > (Threadneedle Street). > In other words, the Walloons were amongst the earliest and initially > dominant group of refugees. In practice, the French Protestant Church of > Canterbury remains to this day a "Walloon Church" and has a pastor of > Belgian origin. > With the Edict of Nantes in 1598, the French/Walloon Churches almost > faded away in England but remained as havens for the gradually increasing > numbers of refugees, now predominantly Huguenots, leaving France (rather > than the Low Countries since from there they could migrate to "free" > Holland) during the 17th century culminating at the period of the > Revocation of the Edict. > In practical terms, the Huguenot Society of Great Britain and Ireland > makes no distinction between Walloons and Huguenots and our records do not > distinguish themand nor should you in your developments. > There is here an associated body who publish (very infrequently) a > Huguenot & Walloon Gazette but very little of their information > is distinct > from ours except in that it deals with people and descendants of those > coming from the Spanish Netherlands in the 16th century. > I shall be happy to clarify further as necessary. > S.W. Massil (Huguenot Library) > > Listers, if anyone is interested in learning more about modern-day > Walloons, > information can be found about them in reference texts (encyclopedias) and > also through search engines such as www.alltheweb.com. I also mentioned a > couple of other research sites in my post on 2 Aug with subject line: Info > re: Wallonia, BEL. > > I hope this information will clear up the confusion. If not, > please ask > more questions! Andrea > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== HUGUENOTS-WALLOONS-EUROPE Mailing List ==== > To unsubscribe (if you are in digest mode), > type and send only the word unsubscribe to: > HUGUENOTS-WALLOONS-EUROPE-D-request@rootsweb.com > > ============================== > Search ALL of RootsWeb's mailing lists in real time. > RootsWeb's Personalized Mailing Lists: > http://pml.rootsweb.com/ >

Hi to the list, In response to the post today (13 Aug) from Jose <mei@communique.net> re: his surnames COUSIN & OUDART 1840+, Namur, Belgium, I hope that my previous post -- re: Walloons, historical vs. modern -- clears up some things for Jose because his Walloons appear to fall into the "modern" category. There was a post or two this month which mentioned Namur but this was in connection with reformed churches in Flanders in 1600-1700's. However, I must commend Jose for his persistence -- he has posted three times about his surnames this month! Jose, you're probably disappointed that there has been no response but it isn't that folks aren't interested or don't want to help. They simply do not have any answers to the questions you are asking. May I make some suggestions? Hopefuly, they will lead you down a path to results. For example, please try a mailing list which focuses on Belgian research and post some queries there. Three lists that I know of are BELGIUM-ROOTS, GEN-BENELUX, and GENBNL-L. To find out about these lists and how to join, go to John Fuller's site, Genealogy Resources on the Internet, which is at http://www.rootsweb.com/~jfuller/internet.html. Click on Mailing Lists, then on Countries Other than USA, then click on Belgium. The other countries you mentioned are El Salvador and Nicaragua. There is a mailing list for both these countries called CENTAM-L. You can find it via John Fuller's web site, as above, clicking on either El Salvador or Nicaragua. Also, please try a search engine such as www.alltheweb.com to see if anything comes up. And don't forget the search engine which is totally genealogy-based at www.genealogyportal.com to see if there is anything there. By the way, the surname OUDART has come up on the list before, although probably not in a context that will help Jose. It was in a long list of surnames posted on 20 Apr in a message from Chris <christroy75@hotmail.com with subject line: Walloon Society of Sweden. OUDART (AUDART) was apparently one of the Walloon names of persons immigrating to Sweden. Last, I do have some further remarks re: accessing European church and migration records -- Jose had mentioned that he lives in Louisiana, US and did not have such access. This is an important topic that I have been thinking of posting about for a while now. However, seeing as this message is long enough already, I'll save those remarks for another post. Yes, I am trying to be briefer in my messages -- a losing battle. Hope you all forgive me. I'm just not a person who is short of words! Hope this has helped. Andrea

Hi, everyone on the list -- On 12 Aug, Catherine <Tverdov@aol.com> was asking clarification re: Walloons. I thank her for bringing up this important question and also thanks to Juergen <genealogy@ib-fritsche.de> for adding his clarifications that same day. This is an important topic in terms of the focus of this list and I have been remiss in not posting about it myself -- I'm on "summer time" these days <g> -- not only for the benefit of new subscribers who may also be wondering but in particular for those who have posted lately with inquiries concerning Belgian research in the 1800's, eg. Jose <mei@communique.net> who is researching in Belgium, 1840+. Here follows some info which, hopefully, clarifies the difference between modern-day Walloons in Belgium (let's say, from time period c1800's+) and the Walloons of c1500-1600's. It was first posted to the list, with same subject line as this one, on 13 Apr and also before that on 7 Feb with subject line -- Walloons: Who were they? It is true that there are French-speaking Walloons in present-day Belgium. But, in discussions on this list, Walloons are viewed in the more historical perspective of the 1500-1600's. Like the Huguenots (with which they are often confused and/or combined), they were Protestants who were persecuted for their beliefs. As a result, they fled their homelands to other parts of Europe or to the UK, Ireland and/or North America. However, they are not the same as the Walloons living in present-day Belgium (who are mostly Catholic). Because I wanted to post information that was entirely correct on this subject, I wrote to Mr. Stephen Massil <ucylswm@ucl.ac.uk> back in February. He is the Librarian at the Huguenot Library in London. Here is his reply to me....... I thank you for your enquiry. Herewith the history lesson: In modern terms, Wallonia and the Walloons are the French speaking Catholics (predominantly) of Belgium. In terms of the Reformation and the persecution of Protestants, the Walloons were the French-speaking Protestants of the Low Countries (Netherlands) under Spanish control in the 16th and 17th centuries along with the Protestant Flemings (i.e. Dutch people). You should make a distinction between those who in England worshipped at the Dutch churches (i.e. were Flemings) and those who worshipped at the Walloon churches: in Norwich, Canterbury, Southampton and indeed London, except that in London the Walloon Church was almost always cited as the "French Church" (Threadneedle Street). In other words, the Walloons were amongst the earliest and initially dominant group of refugees. In practice, the French Protestant Church of Canterbury remains to this day a "Walloon Church" and has a pastor of Belgian origin. With the Edict of Nantes in 1598, the French/Walloon Churches almost faded away in England but remained as havens for the gradually increasing numbers of refugees, now predominantly Huguenots, leaving France (rather than the Low Countries since from there they could migrate to "free" Holland) during the 17th century culminating at the period of the Revocation of the Edict. In practical terms, the Huguenot Society of Great Britain and Ireland makes no distinction between Walloons and Huguenots and our records do not distinguish themand nor should you in your developments. There is here an associated body who publish (very infrequently) a Huguenot & Walloon Gazette but very little of their information is distinct from ours except in that it deals with people and descendants of those coming from the Spanish Netherlands in the 16th century. I shall be happy to clarify further as necessary. S.W. Massil (Huguenot Library) Listers, if anyone is interested in learning more about modern-day Walloons, information can be found about them in reference texts (encyclopedias) and also through search engines such as www.alltheweb.com. I also mentioned a couple of other research sites in my post on 2 Aug with subject line: Info re: Wallonia, BEL. I hope this information will clear up the confusion. If not, please ask more questions! Andrea

Re: HUGUENOTS-WALLOONS-EUROPE-D Digest V00 #213 Thanks to both Andrea and Marty Graybill for their August 11 postings on this look-up. The Belgian surnames SAYE, SAEY and SOY have been found in Northern Ireland, and though we didn't expect them to be at Portarlington, it seemed desirable to see if they were. Andrea's data on our sound-alike DE SAILLY at Portarlington was useful to add to what we have. Marty's suggestion about SEAY being derived from the Anglo-Norman surname DE SAY or SAYE is part of an undocumented legend that has been around for at least a hundred years. What I and others are trying to find out is whether SEAY comes from one of these Flemish names (SAYE, SAEY or SOY) that, unlike the Anglo-Norman names, seem to have no connection with the Norman place names Sai and Say. But Marty's other August 11 posting about Huguenots in Virginia has a VIGNE surname that is possibly related to the family of my ancestor Abraham SEAY (SAY) who received a land grant in Virginia in 1745. He was married to a Naomi LAVIGNE, LOVIGNE, LOVINE, or LOVING--the spelling is uncertain. Hugh Seay

Re: HUGUENOTS-WALLOONS-EUROPE-D Digest V00 #212 Thanks to Andrea for posting on August 10 the SIX & variants in Thorpe-le-Soken, Essex, and for having found and filled in all the gaps. My research partner, Virginia Holter, has recently joined the GGRN (Groupement Genealogique de la Region du Nord). Membership is about $40+ to join, and this includes 6 issues of their magazine. The members work for each other, free. This is a good bargain. However, a little knowledge of French is necessary The URL: http://www.genenord.tm.fr/gnasso/gnoggr1.htm Since Flanders is included in la Region du Nord, we are getting help from researchers on the scene where many SIX and SY sightings are possible. But the registers of the English churches are also a fertile field, and Andrea has been very helpful with them. Hugh Seay

I am listing again the surnames I am researching in Belgium if anyone has any information to exchange: COUSIN 1840-1885 Namur OUDART 1840-1885 Namur I am researching Alexandre COUSIN a composer born circa 1840, Namur, Belgium. He emigrated from Namur, Belgium with his wife Leonie OUDART and their two children: Blanche and Louis Alexandre. Since Alexandre COUSIN was an academically trained, career musician, I wonder if there is any college record at that time or guild records that would let me to find information about his family and ancestors. The senior COUSIN was in El Salvador, Central America around 1885 were he composed the national anthem of that country (Marcha Gerardo Barrios). He moved to Managua, Nicaragua around 1888 or 1889 to train local musicians and as Director of the National Band (Supreme Powers Band) that used to play at government parties and official occasions. He also composed the national anthem of Nicaragua (Hermosa Soberana). In 1992, his daughter Blanche COUSIN-OUDART married the president of the liberal party in Nicaragua who became president of the country in 1893 and served the post until 1909. Blanche and his president-husband have seven children. Being his daughter the first lady of the country for almost 17 years, Alexandre COUSIN settled in Nicaragua where his descendants still live. I need your ideas on how to search for this musician in the Namur area. Aleandre COUSIN probably was born around 1840 in Namur. When he left Namur, his family included his wife Leonie OUDART and their two children: Blanche and Louis Alexandre. I do not know if the family moved directly from Namur to El Salvador, around 1885, or if there was any temporary stays in other countries before reaching El Salvador. Since I live in New Orleans, Louisiana, USA, I do not have access to church or migration records. I would be happy to receive from you any lead to learn more about the COUSIN ancestors in Belgium. Jose Mejia

Hi all, At 05:14 PM 8/1/00 -0700, Andrea Vogel <andreav@island.net> wrote: > Listers -- > Here follows some info found through a Place Search for Lille, Nord, >France on the LDS web site (www.familysearch.org). Note that it also >includes info for other places in France, such as Béthune and Aire (both >Pas-de-Calais). As well, there is also some information for locations in >Belgium, ie. Mons (Liège) and Meenen (aka Menin) in West Flanders. These are >all in the border area between France and Belgium. > >Found under sub-heading Church Records (Lille) -- >1) Registres paroissiaux, 1708-1735, Eglise réformée de Lille, Nord, FRA. snip >2) Found under sub-heading History (Lille) -- >Kerkelijke geschiedenis,1706-1713, Waals Hervormde Kerk, Meenen, West >Vlaanderen, BEL & Lille, FRA. snip > Is anyone researching in these areas? Andrea I did a little bit of research in Armentières, following up on what Gwenn Epperson had done in tracing Mathieu Blanchan and Magdalena Joire. She had found their marriage and the baptism of a hitherto unknown child in the Roman Catholic Chruch there. see: "Magdalena Joire: A 'Mademoiselle from Armentières'," New York Genealogical and Biographical Record; vol. 122, no. 2 (April 1991) However, she didn't mention the baptism of dau. Catherine which I was interested in. I estimate she was born between 1634 and 1637. So, I got LDS film # 1,133,312 which has Baptêmes for 1612-1640 for the Eglise Catholique Paroisse d'Armentières. You may wonder why we were looking for people who were Huguenots (at least later) in the Catholic Church. Here is what Ms. Epperson says in her book New Netherland Roots, p. 95, speaking of France: "Protestant records also begin in the sixteenth century, but are very rare, since the records were illegal until 1789. Therefore, many Protestants are recorded in Catholic registers, as marriage by a Catholic priest was required to inherit property. The marriage of the couple will usually be found in the bride's home parish. Also, children were occasionally baptized in the Catholic Church to allay suspicion the parents were 'heretics.'" The records were in Latin in several different handwritings -- some were not very neat. But thanks to the example in Ms. Epperson's book, which had a transcription and a translation, I was a able to scan thru looking for a "Catherina filia Mattheus." The key for me was the Latin word "fuit" which preceded the child's name and then the filia or filius that separated the child's name from the father's. The f's tended to stand out on those words. I did find a Catherina filia Mathius, but the surname and the mother's name didn't look like what I needed. So, I came up empty; but it could have been there and I missed it. (I searched from a few months's after her parent's marriage thru 1639.) Also, At 11:03 AM 8/2/00 -0700, Andrea Vogel wrote: > Hi, everyone -- > This is a follow-up to my post yesterday (1 Aug) with subject line -- >Records: Nord, FRA & Flanders, BEL, about the records of Lille, Nord FRA and >other places in that area. snip >In Belgium: Tournai (Hainaut), Ieper (West Vlaanderen), Namur (Namur) >In France: Armentières (Nord) > I wanted to include the URL for an online map site which would show this >border area but couldn't find a good one. Anyone know of one? Andrea Sure. Try this: http://www.ancestry.com/search/rectype/reference/maps/freeimages.asp?ImageID=242 Note: you may have to copy and paste to get the whole URL. Don't worry that the title is The Netherlands -- it goes all the way down to Artois and Hainaut. For your time period, you might also like this one: http://www.ancestry.com/search/rectype/reference/maps/freeimages.asp?ImageID=276 Here is the main map page that has an assortment of maps available: http://www.ancestry.com/search/rectype/reference/maps/ Scroll down to the "European Maps" selector box. The maps of the Low Countries are indexed under T for The Netherlands. Regards, Howard hswain@ix.netcom.com

Hi all, At 08:53 AM 8/9/00 -0400, Marge Campbell <campbell@talweb.com> wrote: >Can anyone suggest resources for the European ancestry of the following? >TIA Marge >Matthys Blanchan - Artois 1606 > England 1647 >Mannheim 1651 > Esopus 1660 snip >Joris Jansen Rapalje - Valenciennes 1604 > Amsterdam 1623 > Fort Orange >1624 For Mathieu Blanchan, see the archives of this list for my message of 27 Mar 2000 subject: The migrations of Mathieu Blanchan Briefly, Mathieu was present at the marriage of his brother, Antoine, in Canterbury in 1649. The record shows that Antoine is the "son of the late Leonin and the late Isabeau le Roy" As far as I know, this is the latest that has been found on Mathieu's parents. I think it is safe to assume that Leonin is also the father of Mathieu; however, they could have had different mothers. Mathieu was born in Neuville-au-Cornet near St. Pol-sur-Ternoise (From a testamentary disposition dated Sept. 7/17 1665; Gustav Anjou, _Ulster County, N.Y. Probate Records..._, 1906, pp. 30-31) So, that area would probably be where to look. For the ancestry of Mathieu's wife, Magdalena Joire, see: Gwenn Epperson, "Magdalena Joire: A 'Mademoiselle from Armentières'," New York Genealogical and Biographical Record; vol. 122, no. 2 (April 1991) The above article also recounts their marriage in the Roman Catholic Church of Armentières in 1633. Gwenn Epperson's book, New Netherland Roots, is an excellent guide for further research. For Joris Jansen see: _How To Trace Your Ancestors to Europe_, by Hugh T. Law, 1987, Chapter 7: Ancestors Traced to France -- Joris Jansen De Rapalje and Catherine Trico (pp 83-87, 120-121). Also, "Joris Janzsen [sic] Rapelje of Valenciennes..." by George E. McCracken in The American Genealogiest, vol. 48, no. 2, (April 1972) pp 118-120. Also, "Catalina Trico from Namur (1605-1689)..." by Dorothy Koenig with Pim Nieuwenhuis in New Netherland Connections vol. 1 (1996), no. 3, pp 55-63. And "Further Information About Catalina Trico" in New Netherland Connections vol. 1, no. 4, pp 89-93. As far as I know, the above reflects the latest research on these people. So, that should give you a good place to start. In addition to Gwenn Epperson's book, this site has info for researching France: http://www.familysearch.org/sg/France.html Regards, Howard hswain@ix.netcom.com

Iam looking out for any connections with my surname, Youde. I have recently discovered that I descend from hugenots who came to this country when persecuted in Flemish belgium. Ken. Youde

I am looking to find out more about my surname - YOUDE. Ken. Youde

Hi Catherine, no, Huguenots and Walloons are not one and the same. "Huguenots" were only called the French Protestants which were cruelly persecuted by the Catholic League in the Kingdom of France, especially after the Revocation of The Edict of Nantes in 1685. Many of them decided to flee to protestant countries in Europe, such as Germany, Switzerland, England, Scotland and Ireland or even to the British colonies, but many stayed and the "Camisards" fought in a guerilla warfare against the soldiers for many years. "Walloons" in the sense of "being Protestant from the Spanish Netherlands" (an area which more or less covered current Belgium) were called the first Protestant refugees from the Spanish Netherlands, no matter if (rarely) of Flemish or (mostly) of Walloon origin. Flemish is the Germanic part of the population who speaks the Dutch language and lives in western and norther Belgium and also in northwestern France, whereas Walloons are the Romance part of the population who speaks a French dialect and lives in southern and southeastern Belgium. Because the exodus of the Protestant Flemish and Walloons, Belgium is a catholic land. The Protestant minority in current Belgium is very small. The Spanish army persectuted the Protestants as cruelly as France did. The Flemish Protestants by majority fled bordercrossing to the free northern Calvinist Netherlands, because of the common language. The Walloons found no French speaking Protestant state in Europe, except the French part of Switzerland. So many of them came to England and the Colonies and were known as "the Walloons", the Protestant refugees from the Spanish part of the Netherlands. Also many Walloons came to German states, such as the Calvinist Palatinate in their neighborhood, but had to flee again only few years later together with the Palatinate Protestants to other German states, when France annected the Palatinate and tried to make it catholic. On the other hand, after the Thirty Years War, in 1648 and following years, many *catholic* Walloons immigrated to catholic German countries, invited by the rulers to fill up the lack population which had been decimated to its half by the long wars and by diseases. So we find many French sounding names here in Germany, some of which are of catholic origin and the majority is from Huguenots and from Protestant Walloons. Juergen / Georges ***************************** Jürgen Fritsche (Germany) - --------------------------- genealogy@ib-fritsche.de ***************************** > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- > Von: Tverdov@aol.com [mailto:Tverdov@aol.com] > Gesendet am: Samstag, 12. August 2000 21:32 > An: HUGUENOTS-WALLOONS-EUROPE-L@rootsweb.com > Betreff: [HWE] HUGUENOTS-WALLOONS? > > Andrea, > I've been reading the digest regularly but I need to ask you to please > clarify something for me. I'm a little confused at this point. > Are Huguenots > and Walloons one and the same? or are they different in some way. > I know the > Huguenots were Protestant and from what I've read Walloons were from the > French speaking part of Belgium. But are they the same or were walloons > Catholic? > Thanks for clearing this up, > Catherine > > > ==== HUGUENOTS-WALLOONS-EUROPE Mailing List ==== > To access H-W-E list archives, there are two options: > Threaded Archive is at: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/ > Keyword Archive at: http://searches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl > > ============================== > Search ALL of RootsWeb's mailing lists in real time. > RootsWeb's Personalized Mailing Lists: > http://pml.rootsweb.com/ >

Hello, listers -- This is a (very late and slow) response to the 25 July post from Mike <michael@hare9919.freeserve.co.uk> re: surname HARE (possibly once DE LA HAIRE and ?Walloon in origin?). But, it's another example of how the IGI on the LDS web site can turn up some interesting hints so I hope this is helpful. I realize that none of this info is about Bristol or Somerset locations, which Mike is interested in but England was (and is) a small island and I personally feel that a search for refugee ancestors should be done in all UK locations. I've certainly found my ancestors scattered in various places. Also, there are about two dozen postings in the list archives which mention general info re: Bristol, and about a dozen for Somerset. As well, Cyndi's List at www.cyndislist.org now has a section on Bristol Huguenots. You can go directly to that at: http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/pericles/french/huguenot.htm. Now to the IGI. For a start, there were *a lot* of listings with first name Isaac or Abraham. Thus my purely subjective and unsubstantiated conclusion (call it a gut feeling) that there may well have been Huguenot or Walloon origins to this name. As I've mentioned before, I've found that the names Abraham and Isaac pop up regularly among French refugee families, even generations after settling in England. Surname spellings varied -- HARE, HAIRE, DE HAIRE, DE HERE, etc. Also, there are quite a few listing for locations where Huguenots/Walloons were known to have settled (Thorney in Cambridgeshire, also Lincolnshire, and some in London). On the other hand there were also a lot of listings for Scotland, and a few in Ireland. But how about this one? Baptism in 1606 of Isaac DE HERE, son of Abraham & Barbe, at the Threadneedle Street Church, London. There may be other listings in the IGI under this surname (or variants) at the Threadneedle Street Church but I didn't look for them. The next step would be to have a look at the actual records of the Threadneedle Street Church (because the IGI is only an index). And then to try to connect up that information with details which are known in more recent time periods (often not easy). Has anyone out there had good results with the IGI? If so, I hope they will post. Andrea

Andrea, I've been reading the digest regularly but I need to ask you to please clarify something for me. I'm a little confused at this point. Are Huguenots and Walloons one and the same? or are they different in some way. I know the Huguenots were Protestant and from what I've read Walloons were from the French speaking part of Belgium. But are they the same or were walloons Catholic? Thanks for clearing this up, Catherine

Hi, fellow listers -- Here I am in my role as list concierge. It's been quite a while since I got out my broom and mop for a tidy-up so I thought I would do so now. What needs tidying, you may ask? Surely it can't be that messy! After all, it's been so quiet around here lately........Yes, but.........just some reminders about our list guidelines........Here we go. 1) Capitalize all SURNAMES in your post. 2) Be specific in your subject line, eg. include surname, location and/or topic. 3) When replying to a previous post, change the subject line, if appropriate. 4) Remember to include a subject line! 5) When replying to a previous post, please indicate who you are replying to, the date of the original post and the topic. This avoids confusion. 6) When replying to a previous post, please remove all but a <snip> of that post in your reply. Think of the waste of space and duplication in the archives if you do not. 7) Remember the geographical focus of this list -- ie. it's continental Europe, and/or the UK and/or Ireland. Therefore, posts which mention only North American locations are not appropriate. There, that didn't take long, did it? Thanks for your cooperation and participation, everyone. Andrea

Greetings list How do I go about finding records for my family line in St Quentin and Beauvais circa 1685 Picardy region of France. I have details of a marriage 1668 and children 1668-1683. Also the father's death 1685 in St Quentin. How can I confirm these details and trace the family further in France. Regards Michael Cheeseman

Hello there, There was a De Say/Saye noble family in England, originally of Normandy. Geoffrey de Saye signed the Magna Charta in 1215 http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~pmcbride/rfc/magnacharta.htm This could be the beginings of this surname ?? Just a thought > -----Original Message----- > From: Andrea Vogel [mailto:andreav@island.net] > Sent: Friday, August 11, 2000 9:35 PM > To: HUGUENOTS-WALLOONS-EUROPE-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: [HWE] SAYE, SAEY, SOY, etc > Portarlington, IRL Look-up > > > Listers -- > Here are the results of the look-up in Portarlington, IRL > church records > which was requested by Hugh < HDELMAR@aol.com > in his post of 7 Aug. > > Sorry to say that I found no listings in these indexed records for any > of the following surnames which Hugh is interested in -- SAYE, SAEY, SOY, > SEAY, SOYEZ, SEY, SAY, SEE. > > However, for DE SAILLY -- as Hugh said, a "sound-alike name > for SAYE" -- > there was some information. I was not sure whether it would be of interest > because Hugh had mentioned that it was "already known to be > associated with > Portarlington" > but I recorded it anyway, just in case. Here it is -- > > 1) Du Dimanche 2me Decembre 1694. Sepulture. Anne MISSANT -- Le > Vendredy 30 > Novembre 1694 sur les deux ou trois heures de matin, est morte en > la foy de > Portarlington, au Comté de la Reine, Dame Anne MISSANT, femme de > Charles DE > BURES, Ecuyer, Sieur de Bethencourt, captaine pensionnaire de > leurs Majesté: > dont l'ame etant allée a Dieu, le corps a été enterré le premier > du present > mois dans la cimitiere de Lea, paroisse du dit lieu, en plein jour a trois > heures apres midy, suivant la discipline et la forme ancienne et ordinaire > de nos Eglises de France, ce que le dit Sieur de Bethencourt a signé avec > quelques uns des assistans audt. enterrement et nous anciens du > Consistoire, > les jours et an susdits. > Charles DE BURES BETHENCOURT, ancien. PROISY D'EPPE, ancien. P. DUPUIS DE > BRUNEVAL. DU PETIT BOSC. Michel DE BURES SAILLY. J. BAUCHER, ancien. Jean > BONNET, ancien. J. MALLANDAIN, ancien. Claude GUIOT, ancien. > > 2) Du Dimanche 14 jour de Fevrier 1696/7. Baptesme. Michel FOUBERT -- Le > Jeudy 4me du dit mois sur les six heures du soir est né un fils a Philippe > FOUBERT et a Marie PATENOSTRE, sa femme qui a été cejourdhuy presenté au > Baptesme par Michel DE BURES, Ecuyer, Sieur DE SAILLY, lnt. pensionné, > parrein, et par Dame Marie MISSANT, mareine, femme de Pierre DU > PUY, Ecuyer, > Sieur DE BRUNEVAL, capne. pensionné, et nom luy a eté imposé Michel par > nous. J. GILLET, Ministre. > Philippe FOUBERT, pere. Michel DE BURES SAILLY, parain. > DELONGUEVERGNES. > Marie MISSANT, marene. DU PETIT BOSC. Charles DE BURES > BETHENCOURT, ancien. > DAUNIS, ancien. PROISY E'EPPE, ancien. J. MALLANDAIN, ancien. > > 3) Sepulture. De Vendredy 16e Octobre 1713. Michel DE SAILLY -- > Le Judy 15e > du courant vers les quattre heures du matin est mort Michel DE > BURES, Sr. DE > SAILLY, lieutenant à la pention, en la foy de Seigneur et dans l'esperance > de la glorieuse resurection, dont lame etant allée à Dieu son corps a eté > enterré cejourdhuy par Monsr. DE BONNEVAL, Mintre. de cette > Eglise, dans la > cimetiere de ce lieu. Ant. BONNEVAL. Min. Louis BULIOD, ancien. > > Michel DE BURES SAILLY was also present at the baptism of twins Josias > and Michel Daniel LE GRAND on 2 Sept 1697. They were the sons of Daniel LE > GRAND and Anne DE VIVEFOY. I did not record this entry but can do so if > requested. > > There is an 11 page foreword in this book re: the > Portarlington refugee > community and church which would probably interest anyone researching this > area. As a reminder, this is in Vol. 19 of the Quarto series, also on LDS > film # 096137. > Once again, I caution that these extractions should not be > taken as true > until they are checked for errors and omissions. > Hope this helps. Andrea > > > > > ==== HUGUENOTS-WALLOONS-EUROPE Mailing List ==== > Have you submitted your surnames for our (future) list web page? > To do so will make your names accessible to others on the Web. > For more info, contact Andrea, list admin, at andreav@island.net. > > ============================== > Genealogy calendars, guestbooks and more: > Visit RootsWeb's Resource Center at > http://resources.rootsweb.com/ >

Listers -- Here are the results of the look-up in Portarlington, IRL church records which was requested by Hugh < HDELMAR@aol.com > in his post of 7 Aug. Sorry to say that I found no listings in these indexed records for any of the following surnames which Hugh is interested in -- SAYE, SAEY, SOY, SEAY, SOYEZ, SEY, SAY, SEE. However, for DE SAILLY -- as Hugh said, a "sound-alike name for SAYE" -- there was some information. I was not sure whether it would be of interest because Hugh had mentioned that it was "already known to be associated with Portarlington" but I recorded it anyway, just in case. Here it is -- 1) Du Dimanche 2me Decembre 1694. Sepulture. Anne MISSANT -- Le Vendredy 30 Novembre 1694 sur les deux ou trois heures de matin, est morte en la foy de Portarlington, au Comté de la Reine, Dame Anne MISSANT, femme de Charles DE BURES, Ecuyer, Sieur de Bethencourt, captaine pensionnaire de leurs Majesté: dont l'ame etant allée a Dieu, le corps a été enterré le premier du present mois dans la cimitiere de Lea, paroisse du dit lieu, en plein jour a trois heures apres midy, suivant la discipline et la forme ancienne et ordinaire de nos Eglises de France, ce que le dit Sieur de Bethencourt a signé avec quelques uns des assistans audt. enterrement et nous anciens du Consistoire, les jours et an susdits. Charles DE BURES BETHENCOURT, ancien. PROISY D'EPPE, ancien. P. DUPUIS DE BRUNEVAL. DU PETIT BOSC. Michel DE BURES SAILLY. J. BAUCHER, ancien. Jean BONNET, ancien. J. MALLANDAIN, ancien. Claude GUIOT, ancien. 2) Du Dimanche 14 jour de Fevrier 1696/7. Baptesme. Michel FOUBERT -- Le Jeudy 4me du dit mois sur les six heures du soir est né un fils a Philippe FOUBERT et a Marie PATENOSTRE, sa femme qui a été cejourdhuy presenté au Baptesme par Michel DE BURES, Ecuyer, Sieur DE SAILLY, lnt. pensionné, parrein, et par Dame Marie MISSANT, mareine, femme de Pierre DU PUY, Ecuyer, Sieur DE BRUNEVAL, capne. pensionné, et nom luy a eté imposé Michel par nous. J. GILLET, Ministre. Philippe FOUBERT, pere. Michel DE BURES SAILLY, parain. DELONGUEVERGNES. Marie MISSANT, marene. DU PETIT BOSC. Charles DE BURES BETHENCOURT, ancien. DAUNIS, ancien. PROISY E'EPPE, ancien. J. MALLANDAIN, ancien. 3) Sepulture. De Vendredy 16e Octobre 1713. Michel DE SAILLY -- Le Judy 15e du courant vers les quattre heures du matin est mort Michel DE BURES, Sr. DE SAILLY, lieutenant à la pention, en la foy de Seigneur et dans l'esperance de la glorieuse resurection, dont lame etant allée à Dieu son corps a eté enterré cejourdhuy par Monsr. DE BONNEVAL, Mintre. de cette Eglise, dans la cimetiere de ce lieu. Ant. BONNEVAL. Min. Louis BULIOD, ancien. Michel DE BURES SAILLY was also present at the baptism of twins Josias and Michel Daniel LE GRAND on 2 Sept 1697. They were the sons of Daniel LE GRAND and Anne DE VIVEFOY. I did not record this entry but can do so if requested. There is an 11 page foreword in this book re: the Portarlington refugee community and church which would probably interest anyone researching this area. As a reminder, this is in Vol. 19 of the Quarto series, also on LDS film # 096137. Once again, I caution that these extractions should not be taken as true until they are checked for errors and omissions. Hope this helps. Andrea

I thought this may help some researchers place "lost" ancestors in Virginia. Once again from the VA-Roots list WILL OF ADAM VIGNE IN FRENCH WITH ENGLISH TRANSLATION. A NATIVE OF CASTAGNAL , KINGDOM OF FRANCE. TO ELIZABETH MAONFORD MY PLANTATION SITUATED BETWEEN ABRAHAM SALLE AND JAUE LACASE, FOR LIFE, AND THEN TO MARIE SASSIN AND HER HEIRS. TO ELIAZABETH DACKERY 1 SHILLING DATED 16 MARCH 1725 WITN PAUL CHOIY, JOHN LEVINGSTON, BARTHOLEMY DUPUY. RECORDED 21 MAY 1728 ON MOTION OF STEPHEN MONFORD. DANIEL GUERRANT, JR. MADE OATH THIS WAS A TRUE TRANSLATION. Marty ================================================= http://www.familytreemaker.com/users/g/r/a/Marty-Graybill/index.html ================================================= "Sometimes I eat the bear, sometimes it eats me" =================================================