In the "Sarum" novel, is there a passage relating to bishop Gordon. He was a witness, as a cousin, at the wedding around 1590 in Paris of one my ancestors, John Menteith who married Suzanne Hotman, daughter of the famous French huguenot jurist François. Luc

Andrea, The passages were great, I hope you will be able to post more. Karen JENTER Michigan USA

Listers, [snip] 1) Kirchenbuch (church books or records), 1556-1803, Evangelische Kirche Annweiler (Evangelical Church). Mikrofilme aufgenommen von Manuskripten im Protestantischen Landeskirchenarchiv der Pfalz, Speyer und im Staatsarachiv Speyer, Bayern, Deutschland. Includes: Kirchenbuch, 1761-1921; Katholische Kirche Annweiler (BA. Bergzabern) -- Kirchenbuch, 1595-1948; Evangelisch-Reformierte Kirche Annweiler (BA. Bergzabern) That is -- Parish register of baptisms, marriages, deaths, confirmations, etc. for the Protestant Church of Annweiler, Bayern, GER. Written in German. Includes entries for Albersweiler, Falkenburg, Frankweiler, Hinterweidenthal, Ilbesheim, Leinsweiler, Queichhambach, Rinnthal, Sarnstall, Spirkelbach, Weidenthal and Wilgartswiesen. Also an index of Catholic, Lutheran and Reformed births, marriages and deaths. [snip] A small point, perhaps already understood by all, "Evangelische Kirche" in Bayern (where we lived for four years) is Lutheran as in "Evangelical Lutheran." The "public" schools in Bavaria, which my son and daughter both attended, are Catholic, and Religion is one of the subjects. There were two types of religion class, Catholic and "Evangelische" (which was used as a catch all for all others even including those of the Islamic faith). Since my wife is Swedish Lutheran and our kids were raised in the Lutheran Church, they fit in nicely in the latter class, but on Sundays they attended an Evangelische Church. Cheers, Ed Rockstein researching: Arents Bakkers Barentz Barentsen Bessonnet Billiou Bode/Boden/Bodine Van Borsum Braisted/(Van) Breestede/Brestead Bridon Coch Cornelise/Corssen/Croessen/Vroom Crocheron Dumont Dey/Dye Egberts(z) Hagewout/Haughwout Harmens(e) Hendricks Hermens(z) Jans(d)/Jansen Kierstede Largillere/Larzelere Lubbertsen/Luycasen Mulliner Van Putten Rapalie/Raperler Stuyvesant Swaim (Sweem) Symonsen Thomassen Thyssem/Tijssen Vandergrift Vannests Van Vliet Vroom

'Sarum'is about Salisbury and the building of the cathedral. I read it before 'London' and of the two novels consider it is the better story. Shirley Arabin from Mount Maunganui "Don't know yo past, don't know yo future" (Bob Marley) ----- Original Message ----- From: "J. Burrell" <binkywa@worldnet.att.net> To: <HUGUENOTS-WALLOONS-EUROPE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, 11 November 2000 18:00 Subject: Re: [HWE] Huguenots in London novel > Both novels are engrossing. Rutherford interweaves subsequent generations > of his mostly fictitious families in a way that triggers the imagination > about unlikely, hidden and merely forgotten connections among our own > ancestors. > > Both are a long read but worth your time and interest. You may see London > and Salisbury with new eyes. > > Joneen > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Andrea Vogel" <andreav@island.net> > To: <HUGUENOTS-WALLOONS-EUROPE-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Friday, November 03, 2000 10:11 AM > Subject: [HWE] Huguenots in London novel > > > Listers -- > Here are a couple of passages on Huguenots in London. They are > from the novel by Edward Rutherfurd, titled "London", published in > 1997 by Ballantine, which is a division of Random House. The ISBN is > 0-449-00263-2. > I have obtained written permission to quote these passages from > the Copyright and Permissions Dept., Random House, Inc. 299 Park Ave., > New York, NY 10171. > For anyone who likes long novels in a historical context with some > genealogy thrown in, this book is a "really good read". As the title > implies, it's a history of London, over 1100 pages long. It begins in > 54 BC with a chapter called "The River", on the Thames where London > does not yet exist. Each succeeding chapter is set in a different > historical period, ending with the last one, also called "The River", > dated 1997. > In the chapter "London's Fire" (set in 1666 when a huge fire > engulfed much of London), we are first introduced to a newly arrived > young French refugee named Eugene DE LA PENISSIÈRE. He is a watchmaker > who is living with his uncle "down by the Savoy" where "a little > French Protestant community and church" had sprung up. > His name is quickly anglicized to PENNY when someone asks his name > and, when told, says: "De la what?...I'll never remember that.....I > think.....you'd do better with PENNY." > > Here's the first passage, from pg. 790, in the chapter "London's Fire" > (1666). > " Despite Englishmen's fear of the popish leanings of the Stuarts, > to any Protestant living in Catholic France the kingdom of England had > seemed a safe haven indeed. Massacred by the thousand by a pious > French king in 1572, they had been protected from actual violence for > a generation by the Edict of Nantes. But these devout French > Calvinists were still subject to constant restrictions, and a modest > but steady stream of them had come to England, where they had been > allowed to worship discreetly. Huguenots, they had come to be called." > > The second passage is on pg. 797 in the chapter titled "Saint Paul's" > and dated ten years later in 1675. > "The Huguenots of London formed a thriving community; the pastor > of the French congregation was as busy as he could wish. They had also > fitted in well. Some like the rich DES BOUVERIES family, has already > risen to social prominence. Their French names -- OLIVIER, LEFANU, > MARTINEAU, BOSANQUET -- had either acquired an English sound or they > had been converted, as PENNY had, to an English equivalent: THIERRY > into TERRY, MAHIEU into MAYHEW, CRESPIN into CRIPPEN, DESCAMPS into > SCAMP. Their liking for such culinary delicacies as snails might seem > strange, but other dishes they brought with them, such as oxtail soup, > were soon popular with the English. Their skills in making furniture, > perfumes, fans, and the newly fashionable wigs were welcome; and > though, like all newcomers, they were regarded with some suspicion, > English Puritans respected their Calvinist religion. As for the king, > he had reached a reasonable compromise. The first French churches -- > at the Savoy and at Threadneedle Street -- might use a Calvinist form > of service as long as they remained loyal and discreet. Any new > churches must use a form of the Anglican service, in the French > language; though if a few differences crept in to salve their Puritan > consciences, they were unlikely to be troubled. Strangely enough, > because they were devout and, unlike so many English Puritans, anxious > not to offend, the Anglican bishops of London were usually rather > protective towards them." > > There are other passages in the novel on this topic. If I can get > further permission to do so, I will post them. > By the way, Rutherfurd has also written another historical novel > of this same type, titled "Sarum". It's about the Stonehenge area. No > Huguenots in that one, though, as far as I know. Andrea > > > > > ==== HUGUENOTS-WALLOONS-EUROPE Mailing List ==== > When posting to the Huguenots-Walloons-Europe list: > SURNAMES written in capitals, s'il vous plaît. > Also, please specify dates and location, including country. > > ============================== > Join the RootsWeb WorldConnect Project: > Linking the world, one GEDCOM at a time. > http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com >

Fellow listers -- is anyone researching the Annweiler area of Bavaria (Bayern) in Germany? If so, the following church records have been filmed by LDS. If you are able to do research at an FHC in your area, they may be helpful to you. There are about 20 film reels in all. I hope that subscribers who are researching in this particular area will post with details of their research. Also, does anyone know the history of Protestant churches and communities in this area? Andrea 1) Kirchenbuch (church books or records), 1556-1803, Evangelische Kirche Annweiler (Evangelical Church). Mikrofilme aufgenommen von Manuskripten im Protestantischen Landeskirchenarchiv der Pfalz, Speyer und im Staatsarachiv Speyer, Bayern, Deutschland. Includes: Kirchenbuch, 1761-1921; Katholische Kirche Annweiler (BA. Bergzabern) -- Kirchenbuch, 1595-1948; Evangelisch-Reformierte Kirche Annweiler (BA. Bergzabern) That is -- Parish register of baptisms, marriages, deaths, confirmations, etc. for the Protestant Church of Annweiler, Bayern, GER. Written in German. Includes entries for Albersweiler, Falkenburg, Frankweiler, Hinterweidenthal, Ilbesheim, Leinsweiler, Queichhambach, Rinnthal, Sarnstall, Spirkelbach, Weidenthal and Wilgartswiesen. Also an index of Catholic, Lutheran and Reformed births, marriages and deaths. These records have been filmed by the LDS Church and are on six microfilm reels, as follows -- (Tote=deaths, Heiraten=marriages, Taufen=baptism) LDS film # 193769 -- Heiraten 1556-1597 Taufen, Tote 1556-1593 Verschiedene Akten (various documents) 1584-1592. LDS film # 193771 -- Heiraten, Taufen, Tote 1704-1746. LDS film # 193772 -- Heiraten, Taufen, Tote 1746-1775 Kirchenstrafen (church papers) 1759-1774 Verschiedene Akten 1755-1763 Heiraten, Taufen, Tote 1746-1775 (Abschriften, ie. copies) Heiraten 1775-1803 Taufen 1775-1793 1795-1803 Tote 1775-1803. LDS film # 193773 -- Heiraten, Taufen, Tote 1775-1798 Katholisch, Lutherisch, u. Reformiert: Geburts-Index 1640-1803. LDS film # 193774 -- Heirats-, Toten-Index 1640-1803. LDS film # 1676732 -- Katholisch, Lutherisch, u. Reformiert: Geburts-, Heirats-, Toten-Index 1640-1803 2) Kirchenbuch (church books or records), 1595-1948, Evangelisch-Reformierte Kirche, Annweiler. Mikrofilm aufgenommen von Manuskripten im Protestantischen Landeskirchenarchiv der Pfalz und im Staatsarchiv Speyer, Bayern, GER. Also includes: Kirchenbuch, 1556-1803, Evangelische Kirche Annweiler (BA. Bergzabern) That is -- Baptismal, confirmation, marital, communicant and death records for the Protestant Reformed Church of Annweiler, Bayern, Germany. Includes entries for Queichhambach, Gräfenhausen, Sarnstall, Eußerthal, Ramberg, and Dernbach, Bayern, Germany. Includes index of Roman Catholic, Lutheran and Reformed Church births, marriages and deaths. Written in German. With index. These records have been filmed by LDS and are on many microfilm reels. Note that, in most cases, however, the records do not take up the entire film -- they are just one item on that film. LDS film # 193769 -- Taufen 1595-1599 (Franz. Reform.) Pfarrer 1556-1787 Taufen 1640-1724 Heiraten 1640-1761 Tote 1640-1755 Taufen 1724-1762. LDS film # 193770 -- Konfirm. 1669-1771 Taufen 1724-1779 (Sarnstall) Tote 1756-1779 (Annweiler) Taufen 1762-1775, 1777-1780, 1775-1777 Heiraten 1762-1779 Taufen, Heiraten 1802 Sarnstall: Taufen, Konf., Heiraten, Tote 1780-1803 LDS film # 193773 -- Katholisch, Lutherisch, Reformiert: Geburts-Index 1640-1803. LDS film # 193774 -- Heirats-, Toten-Index 1640-1803. LDS film # 193775 -- Queichhambach: Heiraten 1609-1624, 1650-1779 Taufen 1609-1710, 1719-1773 Konfirm. 1609-1624 Taufen 1773-1779 Tote 1610-1619, 1631-1779 Gräfenhausen: Taufen 1750-1813 Heiraten 1800-1813 Tote 1800-1812 Queichhambach: Taufen 1780-1805. LDS film # 193775 -- Konfirm. 1780-1803 (Gräfenhausen) Heiraten 1780-1804(Queichhambach) Tote 1780-1805 Pfarrer 1577-1787 Queichhambach, Gräfenhausen, Dernbach, Ramberg: Taufen 1800-1833 Heiraten 1800-1838 Tote 1800-1839 Taufen 1833-1839. LDS film # 488503 -- Annweiler: Taufen 1803-1812, 1815-1817 Konfirm. 1815-1817 Heiraten 1806-1812, 1815-1817 Tote 1803-1809, 1814-1817 Taufen, Konf., Heiraten, Tote 1818-1839. LDS film # 488504 -- Heiraten 1839-1865 Tote 1839-1855 Queichhambach, etc.: Heiraten 1839-1885 Tote 1839-1871. LDS film # 1659577 -- Tote 1871-1906. LDS film # 1457536 -- Taufen 1839-1863 (Annweiler) Taufen 1839-1878 (Queichhambach, etc.). LDS film # 1457537 -- Konfirm. 1839-1855 (Annweiler) Konfirm. 1839-1878 Tote 1855-1873, Tote 1873-1918. LDS film # 1475598 -- Konfirm. 1856-1878. LDS film # 1475600 -- Taufen 1864-1882 Heiraten 1865-1895 Konfirm. 1879-1905 Konfirm. 1879-1948 Taufen 1881-1908 Heiraten 1895-1909. LDS film # 1476319 -- Andere Verfilmung (another filming): Taufen 1595-1599. LDS film # 1632514 -- Taufen, Tote, Konf. 1609-1779. LDS film # 1676732 -- Katholisch, Lutherisch u. Reformiert: Geburts-, Heirats-, Toten-Index 1640-1803. LDS film # 193771 -- Taufen, Heiraten, Tote 1780-1817 (Annweiler). LDS film # 1659576 -- Taufen 1803-1812, 1815-1817 Konfirm. 1815-1817 Heiraten 1806-1812, 1815-1817 Tote 1803-1809, 1814-1817 Taufen, Konf. 1818-1839 Heiraten, Tote 1838-1839. LDS film # 1659577 -- Heiraten 1839-1865 Tote 1839-1855. END

>Here is, as promised in my Nov 9th post ,the translation of the SAYE text from >my belgian friend: > >" The Saye family comes only from Tournai, the name doesn't exist elsewhere >in Tournaisis (the region of which Tournai is the capital). >In the name tables of Tournai , I found: >Rachel Saye born in Tournai (St-Jacques); Jehenne Saye born in Tournai >(St-Jacques) 12/13/1574 >; Jehenne Saye born in Tournai (St-Jacques) 12/13/1574; > Claude Saye born in Tournai (Ste-Catherine) 5/27/1598; >Josse Saye dead in Tournai (St-Jacques) 2/10/1547. > >Other Saye may exist in the wedding and death tables for the other Tournai >parishes. I didn't verify those. The other variations of the name Say, I >can't find them in the birth tables for the 12 parishes >of Tournai or in Valenciennes (city of the north of France called Geneva of >the north). It seems the acts in Tournai don't exist anymore because of the >1940 German bombing. >Tournai and Valenciennes were the first cities where Reform flourished. >Two french ministers ,one in each city , preached in public the Calvin >doctrine in october 1561. Tournai payed an heavy death price to Spanish >soldiers in 1568 , In Tournai , sword hanged over all heads . Many were >burnt alive. > >In Tournai, was taken to the castle Jean Sayé(Saye) , rich merchant who >had invited in his house as a guest (Philippe de Montmorency) the count of Horn. Saye was executed in >Brussels." Luc >PS in the "Petit Robert des noms propres": French dictionnary of >People and places, Tournai is "bastion du calvinisme jusqu'à son >investissement par Alexandre Farnèse en 1581" : "calvinist stronghold till >it was taken by Alexander Farnese in 1581."

De Waalse Hervormde Kerk is presently a part of the Nederlandse Hervormde Kerk, which is momentarily in a state of federation with the Evangelisch-Lutherse Kerk in het Koninkrijk der Nederlanden (The Lutheran Church in the Netherlands, also) and the Gereformeerde Kerken in Nederland. Together, he last three are called: Samen-op-Weg Kerken (which means something like: Together on the Way Churches) abbr: SoW-Kerken http://www.kerknet.smra.nl/ Best regards Fred fromvlee@wishmail.nl -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Andrea Vogel <andreav@island.net> Aan: HUGUENOTS-WALLOONS-EUROPE-L@rootsweb.com <HUGUENOTS-WALLOONS-EUROPE-L@rootsweb.com> Datum: vrijdag 10 november 2000 19:19 Onderwerp: [HWE] Dutch Reformed vs Walloon Reformed Churches, NL > Listers -- I'd appreciate it if someone could please explain the >difference between the Dutch Reformed Church (Nederlands Hervormde Kerk) and >the Walloon Reformed Church (Waalse Hervormde Kerk) as they existed in the >Netherlands. Thanks for any clarification offered. Andrea > > > > >==== HUGUENOTS-WALLOONS-EUROPE Mailing List ==== >When posting to the Huguenots-Walloons-Europe list: >Your subject line must reflect the content of your message. >eg. include topic or surname(s) and/or date and/or location. > >============================== >Ancestry.com Genealogical Databases >http://www.ancestry.com/rd/rwlist2.asp >Search over 2500 databases with one easy query! > >

Fellow listers -- This is a continuation of my recent postings of surnames from the records of the Threadneedle Street Church (London) tésmoignages. For example, the first post in this series was on 11 Oct and included the A surnames. Names beginning with letters B, C & DA were posted afterwards. All these earlier posts can be accessed through the list archives. Also, an explanation of what the tésmoignages were is in the list archives, dated 16 March. Today's post contains surnames DEL to DEN. Please check the following list even if your surnames of interest do not begin with these letters. You may find them with DE or DE LA in front of them. However, if you find a surname here which is the same as one in your family, this *does not prove* your Huguenot connection. To have this proof, you must verify the generational links between your particular family members and those individuals named in the tésmoignages. As you can see, I have not named individuals here, only surnames. These records are in Volume 21 of the Quarto series published by the Hug. Soc. of London -- Livre des Tésmoignages de l'Église de Threadneedle Street, 1669-1789 -- and are also on LDS film # 0962137. Some surnames below are followed by a second one in brackets. This means that they are cross-referenced in this source, usually indicating a spouse's surname. Many surnames have several alternate spellings so it's a good idea to check for every possible variant. Andrea DE LA, DE LA BAL, DE LA BALE, DE LA BALLE (HEBERT), DE LA BARRE (BOURGAIN), DELABAUME, DE LA BAUX, DE LA BORDE, DELABOURDE, DELABOURSE, DE LA BRUNE, DELABYE, DE LA CARTE, DE LA CARTHE, DE LA CASTEL, DE LA CASTILLE, DE LA CHABOISSIERE, DE LA CHAMBRE, DE LA CHANA, DE LA CHAUMETTE, DE LACONSEILLÈRE, DE LA COUDE, DE LA COUR, DE LA COURT, DE LA CROIX, DE LA DERNIER, DE LA DOUAYE, DE LADOUESPE, DE LA DOYE, DE LADRIERE, DE LAEST, DE LA FERTÉ, DE LA FEUILLE, DE LAFFIT, DE LA FINE, DELAFOND, DE LA FONS, DELAFONTAINE, DE LA FOREST (L'ECUYER), DELAFOREST, DE LA FOSSE, DE LA FOUN, DE LA GARANE, DE LA HAIRE, DELAHAISE, DE LA HAIZE, DELAHAY, DE LA HAYE, DE LAHAYS, DE LA HAYSE, DE LA HERISE, DE LA HES, DELAHEUZE, DE LA HOULIERE, DE LA JAILE, DELAJAILLE, DE LA LANDE, DELAMAIRE, DE LA MARC, DE LA MARCHE, DE LA MARE (HUE), DE LA MARRE, DELAMBE, DE LAMBRE, DE LAMBRES, DELAMETAIRIE, DE LA MOTTE, DE LANCY, DE LA LANDE, DE LANE, DELANÉE, DE LANGAYNE, DE LA NEUVE MAISON, DELANGUETUIT, DE LANGUETUITE, DELANOY, DE LA NOZE, DE LA PARELLE, DE LA PIERRE, DE LA PLACE, DE LA PLUIE, DE LA PORT, DE LA PORTE, DE LA RATTE, DE LARBE, DE LA ROCHE, DELARRE, DE LA RUE, DE LA SAUX, DE LA SON, DE LASSART, DELAT, DE LA TAISSONERE, DE LA TANIERE, DE LA TASTE, DE LA TOUR, DE LAUAUX, DE LAUNAY, DELAUNEY, DE LAUNOY, DE LA VALLEE, DELAVAND, DE LA VAU, DE LA VAUX, DE LA VEAUX, DE LA VIELLE, DE LA VIGNE, DE LA VINETTE, DELBAR, DELBARE, DELBEC, DELBECQ, DELBES, DELBORDE, DELBOS, DELBOSE, DELDARE, DELDEN, DELDESME, DELDIC, DEL DIK, DELDIN, DELDISME, DELEBAT, DELEBEC, DELEBECQ, DE LECHELLE, DE L'ECLUSE, DE LE PAIGORE, DE LEPAU, DE L'EPAULE, DE L'EPINE, DELERS, DELERUOIR, DE LESPAUL, DE LESPAULE, DE LESPAUX, DE L'ESPINE (COUILLETTE), DE L'ESPINIERE, DE LESPOSE, DE LESSAR, DE LESSART, DE L'ETANG, DELEUZE, DELFOS, DELFOSSE, DE L'HOMME, DELIAN, DE L'ILLE, DE LILLIERS, D'ELIN, DELISARD, DELISLE, DE LIVET, DELIVETTE, DELLEGUIL, DELLSPINOI, DELMAISTRE, DELME, DELO, DE LOBELLE, DELOELLES, DE L'ONCLE, DE LONGUEVILLE, DELORME, DE LORTAN, DELOSSE, DELOURANGE, DELPECH, DELPIER, DELPORT, DELPORTE, DELROT, DELTANIEL, DELTOUR, DE LUGRE, DE LUSSEGNEIS, DELUZE, DELVEU, DEL VOIDE, DELWARDE, DELWART, DE LYON, DE MAGOULAIS, DE MAILLY, DE MALORTIE, DE MANTE, DE MAR, DEMARES, DE MARSEILLE, DE MASSE, DE MATHA, DE MAZIERE, DE MAZURE, DE MEDE, DE MEDIS, DE MEIRE, DE MERAY, DE MERE, DE MERSEILLE, DEMERY, DEMONCE, DE MONCEAUX, DE MONS, DE MONSEAU, DE MONSY, DEMONT, DE MONTAUX, DE MONTERBY, DE MOORE, DE MOUCHE, DE MOUSON, DE MOUTIER (DAM), DE MUN, DE NAIS, DENAU, DE NAUR, DENEFEUILLE, DENEN, DENESCHAUD, DE NEU, DE NEUE, DENEUFUEILLE, DE NEUX, DE NEVEU, DENGRADE, DENIAR, DENIER, DENIOR, DENIS, DE NIUMEGIN, DE NOEL, DE NORNAY, DE NORS, DE NOUELLE, DE NOUVELLE, DENOYER, DENPURÉ, DENU, DE NUN, DEN NUNC, DE NUNCQ (BLONDEL), DE NYORT. End for DEL-DEN surnames, Threadneedle St. tésmoignages

Both novels are engrossing. Rutherford interweaves subsequent generations of his mostly fictitious families in a way that triggers the imagination about unlikely, hidden and merely forgotten connections among our own ancestors. Both are a long read but worth your time and interest. You may see London and Salisbury with new eyes. Joneen ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrea Vogel" <andreav@island.net> To: <HUGUENOTS-WALLOONS-EUROPE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, November 03, 2000 10:11 AM Subject: [HWE] Huguenots in London novel Listers -- Here are a couple of passages on Huguenots in London. They are from the novel by Edward Rutherfurd, titled "London", published in 1997 by Ballantine, which is a division of Random House. The ISBN is 0-449-00263-2. I have obtained written permission to quote these passages from the Copyright and Permissions Dept., Random House, Inc. 299 Park Ave., New York, NY 10171. For anyone who likes long novels in a historical context with some genealogy thrown in, this book is a "really good read". As the title implies, it's a history of London, over 1100 pages long. It begins in 54 BC with a chapter called "The River", on the Thames where London does not yet exist. Each succeeding chapter is set in a different historical period, ending with the last one, also called "The River", dated 1997. In the chapter "London's Fire" (set in 1666 when a huge fire engulfed much of London), we are first introduced to a newly arrived young French refugee named Eugene DE LA PENISSIÈRE. He is a watchmaker who is living with his uncle "down by the Savoy" where "a little French Protestant community and church" had sprung up. His name is quickly anglicized to PENNY when someone asks his name and, when told, says: "De la what?...I'll never remember that.....I think.....you'd do better with PENNY." Here's the first passage, from pg. 790, in the chapter "London's Fire" (1666). " Despite Englishmen's fear of the popish leanings of the Stuarts, to any Protestant living in Catholic France the kingdom of England had seemed a safe haven indeed. Massacred by the thousand by a pious French king in 1572, they had been protected from actual violence for a generation by the Edict of Nantes. But these devout French Calvinists were still subject to constant restrictions, and a modest but steady stream of them had come to England, where they had been allowed to worship discreetly. Huguenots, they had come to be called." The second passage is on pg. 797 in the chapter titled "Saint Paul's" and dated ten years later in 1675. "The Huguenots of London formed a thriving community; the pastor of the French congregation was as busy as he could wish. They had also fitted in well. Some like the rich DES BOUVERIES family, has already risen to social prominence. Their French names -- OLIVIER, LEFANU, MARTINEAU, BOSANQUET -- had either acquired an English sound or they had been converted, as PENNY had, to an English equivalent: THIERRY into TERRY, MAHIEU into MAYHEW, CRESPIN into CRIPPEN, DESCAMPS into SCAMP. Their liking for such culinary delicacies as snails might seem strange, but other dishes they brought with them, such as oxtail soup, were soon popular with the English. Their skills in making furniture, perfumes, fans, and the newly fashionable wigs were welcome; and though, like all newcomers, they were regarded with some suspicion, English Puritans respected their Calvinist religion. As for the king, he had reached a reasonable compromise. The first French churches -- at the Savoy and at Threadneedle Street -- might use a Calvinist form of service as long as they remained loyal and discreet. Any new churches must use a form of the Anglican service, in the French language; though if a few differences crept in to salve their Puritan consciences, they were unlikely to be troubled. Strangely enough, because they were devout and, unlike so many English Puritans, anxious not to offend, the Anglican bishops of London were usually rather protective towards them." There are other passages in the novel on this topic. If I can get further permission to do so, I will post them. By the way, Rutherfurd has also written another historical novel of this same type, titled "Sarum". It's about the Stonehenge area. No Huguenots in that one, though, as far as I know. Andrea ==== HUGUENOTS-WALLOONS-EUROPE Mailing List ==== When posting to the Huguenots-Walloons-Europe list: SURNAMES written in capitals, s'il vous plaît. Also, please specify dates and location, including country. ============================== Join the RootsWeb WorldConnect Project: Linking the world, one GEDCOM at a time. http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com

Not sure if it helps but there is mention of a francoise de SAYE the wife of d'anthoine BOCQUET at Guisnes in October 1668 Roy Day. ----- Original Message ----- From: "The Siegers" <cottnile@xtn.net> To: <HUGUENOTS-WALLOONS-EUROPE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, November 10, 2000 4:16 PM Subject: Re:[HWE]Posting SEAY, SAIS & variants snip | . The SAIS family (also | spelled SAYE, SAY, SAIE, SEY, SEYE, SEE, SEES, SAYES, SAYZE, DE | SAIDES) | were from Tournais and the surrounding area of the Tournaisis,

Many thanks to Luc Chaput and his Belgian genealogist friend, for the vital statistics information re Sayes is new to me, and most welcome. The only name I know is that of Jehenne Saye, who of course, cannot be the Jean Saye who was executed in 1567. Primary sources were not and probably still are not available to me, so I have used the works of various Belgian authors/editors, including de Coussemaker, Hocquet, Moreau, Verheyden for the information I have. I have also a copy of a "Carte du Tournaisis au XVI-siecle", but I am still not sure as to what exactly is included - unfortunately, geography is not one of my strong points. The names I found, (with various spellings) all date from the time of the"troubles" that beset the area from 1567-1573. They are:Jean SAIS/SAYS (also Jehan SEIS/SAYS) and associated with him in Tournai, Loys SAIS/SAYS (Louis SAIS). Others also on the List of the Condemned are Antoine & Jacquot SEIS (brothers)/ Antoine & Jacques SAYE (La Gorgue); Pierre SAY, (Furnes); Adrienne SAYE, Tournai; Ghyleyn SEYE, Bailleul; Christoffee SEYS, Gant; Josse SEYS, Nevele; Jehan DE SEY, Dalhem. These may well include names that actually are not variants of SAYE,etc., and they may well be inaccurate, both because they are secondary sources, and also through human error on my part. Thus, they need to be checked with primary sources. Many of these names, as well as others on the list, appear in England. Wordy though this is, it is a brief summary of my information concerning the Calvinist uprising in 16th century Flanders. But do they lead to anything fruitful??? Joanne Deane Sieger

Many thanks to Roy Day. It happens that I do have this information and don't know where it goes, but appreciate the posting. Joanne Deane Sieger

Subject: [HWE]SEAY,SAIS & variants, FLANDERS,ENGLAND, 16th & 17th CENTURIES Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2000 11:24:17 -0500 From: The Siegers <cottnile@xtn.net> To: HUGUENOTS-WALLOONS-EUROPE-L@rootsweb.com Is this the way to post a message??? Although I have been following this site for several months, this is my first posting - didn't think I had anything of relevance. I have found the Huguenot/Walloon exchanges quite interesting as well as informative, and am greatly impressed with Andrea Vogel's work. I am particularly interested in those concerning the name SEAY and its variants, because SEAY is the surname of my grandmother's family. They considered themselves to be descended from French-speaking Calvinists from England and France, whose name had been pronounced to rhyme with "say" (which seems to have been the usual pronunciation in England during the 16th through part of the 18th century of words like "sea", "tea", etc.) Anecdotal evidence, to be sure, but that was my starting point for research on the SEAYS a number of years ago. I found little information of help in France, but did learn that SAIS/SAYE was the name of a family from Flanders. In information found in publications of the Huguenot Society of London, as well as in a number of Belgian sources dealing with the Calvinist uprisings in 16th - 17th century Flanders I found quite a bit of information about this family as well as families with whom they were associated, both in France and in England. The SAIS family (also spelled SAYE, SAY, SAIE, SEY, SEYE, SEE, SEES, SAYES, SAYZE, DE SAIDES) were from Tournais and the surrounding area of the Tournaisis, and were merchants, artisans, etc., in the wool trade. (It is intriguing to me that WICRES, mentioned as a possible site for the SEAYS in the 17th century was in the same general area.) Many of the SAIS family were active in Calvinism; some were on the list of the condemned in FLANDERS, were either executed or exiled, usually fleeing to England. By early 1568 some appear on the various tax and census returns of the Tudor and early Jacobean reigns collected by Irene Scoloudi. I found their names also in records of foreign churches in London, Canterbury, Norwich, Thorney-le-Sokem Colchester (SEIJS, SEY, SIJS, etc) and in the latter 17th century in Guisnes. English parish records were not available to me, nor did I find traces of SEAY/SAYE, etc. after ca. 1660, so I reached a dead end - did they immigrate to the British colonies, or are they even relevant? Wordy though this is, it is a condensation of the many notes I have, but I have finally come to my point. Has anyone on the list done research on this Walloon line as a possible source for the SEAY name? I would be glad to hear what people think of this, and of course, share any information I have that might be helpful. Joanne Deane Sieger

Fellow listers -- I would like some input from you all concerning the content of two sections on our website (still workin' on it....<g>). Those two sections are: 1) Who were the Huguenots and Walloons? and 2) Huguenot History and Timelines. At this time, I am asking for contributions *specifically* about Huguenot/Walloon identity (ie. who were they?) and also history/timeline. Other sites with more general information about Huguenots will go into a different section of the website (but I haven't gotten to that one yet <g>). Also please keep in mind that info entirely about Huguenots in the US would not be appropriate, considering the focus of our list. Here is what I have managed to gather together so far (in no particular order). Does anyone have further sites to add? If so, please post to the list, with the URL and a brief description of what is to be found on that site. http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Acres/4040/hist-hug.htm Who Were the Huguenots? Part of the Viljoen Family website.Includes a chronology and description of historical events concerning Huguenots. http://www.genealogyforum.com/gfaol/resource/Huguenot/hug0006.htm Huguenot Timeline: Huguenot & Protestant Reformed Chronology. This is part of the Genealogy Forum Huguenot Resource Center website at: http://www.genealogyforum.com/gfaol/resource/Huguenot/index.htm http://www.kopower.com/~jimchstn/timeline.htm Huguenot & Protestant Reformed Chronology. Part of the Pierre Chastain Family Association website. http://www.lepg.org/wars.htm The Wars of Religion, Part 1 http://www.lepg.org/wars2.htm The Wars of Religion, Part 2 These are part of Le Poulet Gauche website which is "a guide to the history, culture, and daily life of 16th century France". http://palissy.humana.univ-nantes.fr/CETE/TXT/EDN/index.html Complete French text of L'edict de Nantes. Bibliography. http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/3809/Huguen.htm Brief historical background. English translation of the Revocation of the Edict of Nantes, 1685. Poem, several related links. http://www.rootsweb.com/~ote/hw.htm Article about Huguenots and Walloons, part of The Olive Tree Genealogy website. http://www.HightowerTrail.com/Index.html+1 Huguenot History: Timeline. Includes further links. http://www.home.aone.net.au/mclark/huguenot_history.htm Huguenot History. Includes further links. Is there more out there that should be included? Andrea

Listers -- I'd appreciate it if someone could please explain the difference between the Dutch Reformed Church (Nederlands Hervormde Kerk) and the Walloon Reformed Church (Waalse Hervormde Kerk) as they existed in the Netherlands. Thanks for any clarification offered. Andrea

The D'Entremont name in the de Coligny is a fiefdom which the daughter got , so she kept the name, that's one explanation. Children often even kept names of fiefs for a certain period even though they may have lost the titles. I hav seen it happen. Regarding Say, I sent the post to a belgian genealogist friend . I'm sending you today the post in french I'll translate it or summarize it soon. Luc «La famille SAYE est une ancienne famille de TOURNAI uniquement. Dans la région,arrondissement de Tournais ou Tournaisis ce patronyme n'apparait pas. J'ai trouvé dans les tables de Tournai: Rachel Saye née à Tournai (St-Jacques) le 14 avril 1577 Jehenne Saye née le 13 décembre 1574 à Tournai (St-Jacques) Claude Saye né le 27 mai 1598 à Tournai (Ste Catherine) Josse Saye mort à Tournai le 10 février 1547 (St-Jacques) D'autres Saye peuvent exister dans les tables de mariages et décès des autres paroisses.Je n'ai pas vérifier. C'est le seul patronyme que j'ai trouvé.Les autres déformations je ne les trouvent pas dans les tables de baptêmes des 12 paroisses de Tournai ni à Valenciennes (la "Genève du Nord"). On dit que les actes n'existent plus (destruction lors du bombardement de Tournai par les Allemands en 1940). Les premières villes où la réforme leva la tête furent Valenciennes et Tournai.Deux ministres français,l'un à Tournai,l'autre à Valenciennes, prêchèrent la doctrine de Calvin sur la place publique en octobre 1561. Tournai fournit un large tribut de sang au Moloch espagnol en 1568. A Tournai,le glaive était suspendu sur toutes les têtes.Beaucoup moururent brûlés vifs. Le mardi 16 septembre 1567,fut pris au château Jean Sayé (Saye) riche marchand chez qui s'était logé le comte de Horn.Saye fut exécuté à Bruxelles.»

In researching Marguerite D'AILLY 1560- daughter of Antone & grdaug of Charles, married Francois Coligny. Francois's father, Gaspar II 1518-1572 married twice. His daughter by Jeanne Charlotte de Laval Monfort is known as Jean Louise De Coligny 1555-1620 but his daughter with Jacqueline de Montbel D'Entremont is known as Beatrice De Coligny D'Entremont. How are these generally alphabitized? Is it true that French women kept their names when married. In researching a Nicholas D'AILLY of Artois, FR, his son Jan went to the states and used the name ALJIE. Jan's son Pierre used the name ALYEA and Jan's brother used the name ALLEE. Tom Dally

In researching D'AILLY came across Susannah LaROIX (La RUE, La ROE) 1658-1708, b. in "the Huguenot Colony, Manneheim, Germany". Tom Dally

Hello, listers -- This is in response to a post on 5 Nov from Derek <derek@icetea.demon.co.uk> who has been told that there are Huguenot connections in his JEFFRYES & JOHNSON lines. Hopefully, my comments will be helpful to Derek and also to others who may have similar questions in their own research. Sorry for the length of this. Anyone not interested in tracing ancestors in the UK in the 1800's can delete *now* <g>. Derek, first of all, there is no way to tell, from the info you have sent, if there is a Huguenot connection in your family. For example, the time period you mentioned, c1840's-60's, is much too late to discover Huguenot links. You need to get back a few generations, eg. at least to late 1600's-early 1700's). Also, there is no such thing as a name which is *always* Huguenot or of Huguenot connections. There are only Huguenot *individuals* (ie. those who fled their homelands several centuries ago and are to be found in the records of that day). But.....even if a JEFFRYES or a JOHNSON name were found in Huguenot records, it would not prove any connection at all with your own surnames. They're quite common names, for one thing. There must be many people in the UK with either name but who have no Huguenot ancestry. But, don't give up hope! There *may be* Huguenot ancestry in your background. I'm not discounting it -- I'm just saying that the proof is not there as yet. Also consider that your Huguenot ancestors (if you have any) may not have originally been a JEFFRYES or a JOHNSON at all. Instead, they may have had a completely different surname whiich you haven't discovered as yet. Derek, what you need to do is to start tracing the generations back, starting with what you know, and see where this leads you. This may not be easy because, as I said, the surnames are common ones, and you will have to begin searching in a densely populated area (London). For example -- and you may have done this already -- you need to get a copy of that 1863 marriage certificate. This will confirm the fathers' names for both Elizabeth JEFFRYES and William JOHNSON. Addresses are usually part of the info provided on the certificate and, if they are, you can look in the 1861 census to see who was living at those addresses two years before the marriage. Hopefully, it will be the entire family, complete with everything you need to know (ages, occupations, birthplaces). If they aren't found at that address, they may have been living in the same neighbourhood. If you are lucky to find them in 1861, try the 1851 and 1871 censuses for the same area to see if they are still there. This may provide further valuable info. Also check the 1881 census if William and Elizabeth were still alive at that time.This census has been fully indexed so you should be able to locate them in there. You will also need to obtain the birth certificate for William, born July 1838. This will again confirm his father's name but also tell you his mother's name, including maiden name. There may also be a family address on there too. But keep your fingers crossed that William's birth was registered -- not all were, in the years just after the introduction of UK civil registration in July 1837. Unfortunately, your Elizabeth seems to have been born just before civil registration began so you won't get a birth certificate for her. Instead, you will have to find her baptism in church records. As to where to start looking, I'd start with a parish where you know they were. If you find nothing there, begin looking in records for adjoining parishes, moving outwards in a concentric circle if you find nothing. People often didn't move far in centuries past, if they moved at all. Also, find out if anyone has done any baptism or marriage indexes for London parishes. This might save you some searching. Join a London mailing list, too, and put some queries on there. Hope this has helped Derek and has not just re-hashed things which have already been tried. The key is tracing back about 150 years. Good luck with it! Andrea

I am new to this list. Have looked at past messages and found no-one researching these names yet, although they are mentioned in various pieces of information given on the site. I am particularly interested in possibility of Spanish /Jewish ancestry in person of the name CLEMENT, whom I have found as Minister in Church of Ireland in Tipperary, 1621, possibly refugee from Spanish-occupied Belgium, from whom I am probably descended. (I am basing country of origin only on time and appearance of descendants, at present.) Would like to hear from anyone else studying Huguenot-Jewish intermarriage in Ireland or elsewhere. COTTIN family were in Armagh and DELAHAYS in Limerick in 18th and 19th centuries. Barbara Holt in NZ