Hello to all -- I am posting the following extracts taken from the published indexed records of the Walloon Church at Canterbury (Hug. Soc. of Ldn. Quarto series, vol. 5, LDS films # 0086956 & 0086957). Dates are between 1603/4 and 1700. I'm seeking information about the VERE or VERRÉ surname and have extracted all possible variants in this search (VERRIE, VERET, etc). Because these entries include quite a few other surnames, I am posting them in case they are of interest to others. My 8x great grandmother was Marie VERRE, born c1650 (location not yet found), married to Jacques OLIVE c1670 (location not yet found). Marie and Jacques had eight children baptised at the Canterbury Walloon Church between 1672 and 1690. The marriages of two of those children are included below. Marie died in 1707 -- the burial record was found in the records of Canterbury Holy Cross Westgate. I believe Marie's father's name was possibly Samuel. And I also think it's possible that the Samuel VERRE mentioned below (married to Jane DESPAIGNE) was her brother. No proof as yet. A lot of loose ends. All entries below, whether in French or English, were copied exactly from this source. I have also indicated what page each entry was on. If you find connections to your own research, please share this with us. I know I recognize quite a few names here that have been posted to the list before, although possibly not with the same spellings. Andrea 1603/4 janvier 15 (baptême) -- Jehan, filz de Jehan VERRE. Tem Samuel HOUART; Michel LE CLERCQ; la femme de Jehan DU QUESNE; Marie DE LE BECQUE, jeune fille. 1632 mai 20 -- Marriage contract between Laurent LE ROU, son of the late Jean LE ROU, asisted by Jeanne CAPRON (CAPON), widow of the said Jean, his mother; Martin LE ROU his brother; Hubart VERRÉ his brother-in-law and Jean MABRE his brother-in-law; & Anne PICQUE (PICQUET), daughter of the late Jean PICQUE, assisted by Martin DE LA RUE, her brother-in-law and Jaques DANBRENNE (DANBRIENNE), her friend.Witness: A. DENIS [Vol. iv, No. 44] (Pg. 702) 1632 ----- 3 (mariage) -- Marriage contract between Martin LE ROU, son of Jean LE ROU, native of GAUERELLE, assisted by Hubert VERRIE and Jean MALORIE his brothers-in-law; and Pasquette LAUSEE, daughter of Phelippe LAUSEE, native of Brailleu, assisted by Quintin GUIGNOT (GUIGINOT) & Anthoine DARRAS (DARRAT) her uncles; Pierre GUIGNOT & Pierre DE LA RUE her cousins. Witness: A. Denis. [Vol. iv, No. 51) Married 11 nov 1632. (Pg. 703) 1636 mars 27 (baptême) -- Marie, fille de Hubert VERE et Leurense, sa femme. Tem. Leuren LE ROUX; Jaquemaine, femme de Michel LE CLARQ; Judith CATEAU, fille de Jaques. 1639 Dec 25 (baptême) -- Elie, fils de Laurens LE ROU. Tem. Elie DE LESPAU; Anthoine VERET, jeusne fils tous deux; Elizabeth LE NOBLE, femme de Jaques LE KEUX; Pieronne CONNUELLE. 1640/1 janvier 24 (baptême) -- Judith, fille de Paul DOGIMAN. Tem. Guillaume BEAUME; Jeanne VERREZ, Marte DE LE HAYE. Morte tost apres. 1641 juin 14 (mariage) -- Anthoine, filz de feu Hubert VERRÉ, natif de Cerel en Artois, et Marie, fille de Henry D'ANGIMONT, native de Bailleul en Artois. Fiancez 18 avril 1640. Et espousez apres leurs annonces publiees. 1643 avril 2 (baptême) -- Marye, fille de Jaque JOUUENEAU et de Magerite DOGIMAN, sa femme. Tem. Anthoine VERE; Heleigne DOGIMON; Marye BECCAR. Naquit le 27 du Mars. 1643 décembre 3 (baptême) -- Abraham, fils de Anthoine VERRE et de Marie DOGMION, sa femme. Tem. Paul DOGMION; Gillaume DE BEAUMON; Jenne DESPENNOY; Marye DE LESPAU. (Pg. 199) 1643/4 janvier 13 -- Marriage contract between Jaques GHORICQUE, widower, assisted by Estienne CRICQUERE(?) his brother-in-law; Anthoine MILLON his godfather & Jeanne VERRIE, widow of the late Jean MONNIE, assisted by Jean FERRE (FERRET) her nephew, and Pierre LE CLERCQ, her friend. There is mention of the four children (who are unnamed) of the said Jaques GHORICQUE by Jeanne CRIQUERE, his first wife and also of Jeanne MONNIE, daughter of the aforesaid Jeanne (VERRIE) MONNIE. Witness: A. DENIS. [Vol. iv, No. 159] (Pg. 718) 1644 avril 4 (mariage) -- Jaque GHORICQUE, vef. natif de Lille et Jeanne VERRIE, vefue de Jean MONNIE, natifue de Rumegy, terre de St. Amand. 1645 mai 5 (mort) -- Un enfant a......... VERET. 1647 fev. 13 (baptême) -- Isaac, fils de Martin DU HAMEL. Tem. Jean CATEAU; Pierre LE PLAT; Marie CATEAUX; Gillet VERREUX. (Pg. 212) 1647 avril 4 (bapteme) -- Marie, fille de Guillaume HAUE (HOUE?). Tem. Antoine VERRET; Pierre CASTEL; Jeanne VERRET; Marie DEUVILLE. Nasquit le 28 Mars. (Pg. 209) 1655 mai 6 (baptême) -- Anne, fille de Phillipe CARPENTRIE et Margerite DE LESPLUCQUE, sa femme. Tem. Elie GIGON; Jaques LE GRY; Jeane VERRE, femme de Jaque GORIQUE; Judith POUTRE, fille de Jacob POUTRE. Nez le 2 Mai. (Pg. 222) 1655 juillet 15 (baptême) -- Susanne, fille de Jaque CORNUEL. Tem. Clement VERRE; Franchoise CORNUEL; Mrs. Mary WHESTON. (Pg. 222) 1655 juillet 15 (baptême) -- Ester, fille de Michie VERRIE. Tem. Mr. Pierre DE LA PIERRE; Judith DU BOIS, fille de Jean. Naquit de 7 Julet. (Pg. 223) 1656 mai 8 (baptême) -- Paule, fils de Jean VERRIE. Tem. Paule DEFARUAQUE, fils de Nicolas; Elie DEFARUAQUE, fils de Samuel; Marie, femme de Samuel LE NOBLE; Rose DEFFARUAQUE. (Pg. 226) 1656 mai 11, dimanche (baptême) -- Anne, fille de Niocolas FERRETT. Tem. Jean DERNEAU; Marie, femme de Estienne DU THOITH; Gillette, femme de Jean VERREU. 1656/7 jan 31 (baptême) -- Pierre, fils de Michel HOUSE. Tem. Jacob DU BOIS, Marie VERRETT, Susanne LOFFROIE. [Jeudy] (Pg. 225) 1657 avril 19 (baptême) -- Elie, fils de Nicolas BOURGHOIS et d'Esther, sa femme. Tem. Jean VERET, Catherine FOSSE, Marie DU BOIS. (Pg. 230) 1657 mai 3 (baptême) -- Jeane, fille de Michel HOUSE. Tem. Jacob DU BOIS, Susanne LAFFROY, Jeane VERRE. Naquit le 1er Maii. (Pg. 230) 1663 nov 15 (baptême) -- Jean, fils d'Anthoine VEREUX et Ester, sa femme. Tem. Jean VERREU(X), le granpere; Jullet VERUEU(X) le grandmere; Marie, femme de Jaques DE LILLER. (Pg. 242) 1665 aout 13 (baptême) -- Ester, fille d'Anthoine VAUREUX et d'Esther FERRET, sa femme. Tem. Jean WIBER, le jeune; Magdelaine, femme de Saml. LE SEDT; Magueritte, femme du dit WIBER. (Pg. 248) 1665 aout 27 (baptême) -- Elizabeth, fille de Samuel MILLON. Tem. Anthoine VERRE; Elizabeth MILLON, femme de Philipe MOTTE. (Pg. 248) 1666 jan 14 (baptême) -- Jeane, fille de Pierre VISAGE et de Jeane CARDON, sa femme. Tem. Anthoine VERRE; Jeane, femme de Jean CARDON; Esther CHIROUTE. Naquit le 8 ditto. (Pg. 249) 1672 avril 7 (baptême) -- Samuel, fils de Jaques OLIUE. Tem. Samuel VERÉ; Marie VERRE; Elizabeth VERRE. Jour de Pasque. Nasquit le 30 mars. (Pg. 267) 1676 juin 3 (mariage) -- Jean DE LABRE, fils de feu Adrian DE LABRE, natif de Tournay, et Elizabeth VERÉ, fille d'Anthoine VERÉ, native de Cantorbury. Promesse. Ils ont esté marié le 22 Juin dans l'église de Canterbury. (Pg. 521) 1677 sept 23 (mort) La feme de Jean DELABRE, a sauoir Elizabet VERE, mourut subitemen. (Pg. 603) 1681 juillet 5 (mort) -- Esthere VERRÉ, fille de Samuel VERRÉ. (Pg. 606) 1685 dec 13 (baptême) -- Samuel, fils de Samuel VERE et Jenne DESPINGN, sa femme. Tem Henry DESPAIGNE; Ester DESPAIGNE; Marie LE LARBRÉ. Nasquit de 8 du dit mois. (Pg. 310) 1694/5 mars 7 (mariage) -- Samuel OLIVE, fils de Jaques OLIVE et de Marie VERÉ, natif de Canterbury; et Marie LE POINT, fille de Pierre LE POINT et de deffunt Madelinne DECHAUFOUR, native de Leyde. Promesse. Marié le 25 Mars 1695 en cest église. (Pg. 543) 1696 octobre 11 (mort) -- Jenne DESPAIGNE, femme de Samuel VERRÉ. (Pg. 611) 1700 aout 8 (mariage) -- Jean OLIVE, fils de Jaques OLIVE et de Marie VERÉ, natif de Cantorbery; et Susane OLIVE, fille de Abraham OLIVE et de defunte Susane DE TIENVILLE, natif de Bouloigne. Promesse. (pg. 550) 1700 dec 10 (mariage) -- Jean SIX, fils de feu Bartholomy SIX et de Lea DANBRINNE, natif de Londres, et Mary VERÉ, fille de Samuel VERÉ et de Jenne DESPAIGNE, native de Canterbery. Promesse. Marié le 25e de ce mois. (Pg. 548) END

Andrea, Whilst i've been away from this list for a while , I've been approached by at least 40 odd people looking for the Huguenot/ Wallonn list - in my naivety I suggested that they look up the Rootsweb mailing lists- they did with no luck! It took me a while to find it through cindi's list!!!! Is there any way for people to be made aware that there are some huguenots lists without them trawling through the Net, but just looking up the Mailing lists on the Web? All the best, Peter (de loriol) 74 Elms Road London, SW4 9EW, GB Fax: (0)207 622 4505 Tel : (0)207 622 9623

Hi sarah, I checked out your wonderful tree, and the only person that I had much information on was Elizabeth Roussel, whos ancestry I trace back a few generations. Here is what I know about her family, You may have it already but I hoped that it might be of interest. 1. Elizabeth Roussel was born in 1708-1709. Elizabeth married Pierre Beuzeville. Second Generation 2. Francois Roussel was born about 1679. Francois married Esther Heusse on 4 Jul 1696 in London, England. Children from this marriage were: i. Marie Roussel ii. Anne Roussel iii. Isaac Roussel iv. Magdeleine Roussel v. Etienne Roussel vi. Elizabeth Roussel vii. Moses Roussel viii. Marie Anne Roussel 3. Esther Heusse . Esther married Francois Roussel, son of Laurens Roussel and Marguerite Langlois, on 4 Jul 1696 in London, England. Third Generation 4. Laurens Roussel was born on 2 Dec 1628 in Pont-Audemer, Eure, Normandy, France, died on 1 Aug 1691 in Pont-Audemer, Eure, Normandy, France and was buried in Pont-Audemer, Eure, Normandy, France. Laurens married Marguerite Langlois, daughter of Jacques Langlois and Anne Chefdhostel, on 1 Nov 1665 in Rouen, Seine Maritime, Normandy, France. Children from this marriage were: i. Marie Roussel ii. Isaac Roussel iii. Laurent Roussel iv. Etienne Roussel v. Francois Roussel 5. Marguerite Langlois was christened on 24 Sep 1637 in Rouen, Seine Maritime, Normandy, France. Marguerite married Laurens Roussel, son of Laurens Roussel and Elizabeth Desormeaux, on 1 Nov 1665 in Rouen, Seine Maritime, Normandy, France. Fourth Generation 8. Laurens Roussel was born on 3 Oct 1599, was christened in Quilleboeuf, Normandy, France and died in 1677. Laurens married Elizabeth Desormeaux, daughter of Francois Desormeaux, on 2 May 1627 in Pont-Audemer, Eure, Normandy, France. Children from this marriage were: i. Laurens Roussel 9. Elizabeth Desormeaux , died before Nov 1665. Elizabeth married Laurens Roussel, son of Pierre Roussel and Madeleine Malefrein, on 2 May 1627 in Pont-Audemer, Eure, Normandy, France. 10. Jacques Langlois was born in 1599 and died in 1642. Jacques married Anne Chefdhostel. Children from this marriage were: i. Isaac Langlois ii. Jacob Langlois iii. Jacques Langlois iv. Daniel Langlois v. Pierre Langlois vi. Marguerite Langlois vii. Marie Langlois viii. Pierre Langlois ix. Salomon Langlois x. Abraham Langlois 11. Anne Chefdhostel was born in 1604 and died in 1663. Anne married Jacques Langlois. Fifth Generation 16. Pierre Roussel was born about 1570. Pierre married Madeleine Malefrein, daughter of Malefrein and Marie Belleau. Children from this marriage were: i. Laurens Roussel 17. Madeleine Malefrein . Madeleine married Pierre Roussel. 18. Francois Desormeaux . Francois married. Children from this marriage were: i. Elizabeth Desormeaux Sixth Generation 34. Malefrein Malefrein married Marie Belleau. Children from this marriage were: i. Madeleine Malefrein Thats all I'm afraid Chris Shelley

----- Original Message ----- From: <HUGUENOTS-WALLOONS-EUROPE-D-request@rootsweb.com> To: <HUGUENOTS-WALLOONS-EUROPE-D@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2001 8:00 PM Subject: HUGUENOTS-WALLOONS-EUROPE-D Digest V01 #62 UNSUBSCRIBE

I am working with excerpts from the Mirandole collection and am finding many entries from a place called "La Haye". Does anyone know where this is? I'd also be interested in hearing from anyone that has worked with this collection. I want to get the most out of it and could use some tips. Thanks! Craig Sale

Fellow listers -- It's your list concierge here, with apologies. Normally, I wouldn't clutter up the list with messages like this but since we've had two separate requests to unsubscribe sent to the list in the last couple of days, I thought I would try to clear up any confusion so it doesn't happen again. If you want to unsubscribe, *do not* send your request to the list. This will not do anything to unsubscribe you. It will only let all the rest of us know that you want to leave <g>. Please note that you must use a different address for unsubscribe requests than the one which is used for posting messages. If you're not sure of the procedure to use, instructions on how to unsub are in a number of easily accessible places, as follows -- 1) They're on the list website (http://www.island.net/~andreav/index.html) in The Basics section. 2) They're in the official *welcome message* you received when you first joined the list. (Remember that really long message that maybe you deleted right away, possibly without reading through it??....) 3) If you are subscribed in digest mode (ie. receiving several list messages in a group, about once a day), instructions on how to unsubscribe are *always* included at the beginning of your "package" of messages. I'm not sure how that looks in other e-mail programs but in Outlook Express, just double click on the first envelope icon, then scroll down past the list of subject lines. 3) Instructions are in some of the taglines (short messages) which appear at the very bottom of each list post -- scroll down to the very very end and you'll see one. However, they only appear in messages sent in list mode (ie. when each message is received separately, several times a day), but not in digest mode. There are ten different taglines, appearing in random order. One of those taglines is how to unsubscribe. For example, at the end of Karen's message yesterday (9 March), the tagline read -- ==== HUGUENOTS-WALLOONS-EUROPE Mailing List ==== To unsubscribe (if you are in list mode), type and send only the word unsubscribe to: Huguenots-Walloons-Europe-L-request@rootsweb.com And at the end of Cliff's post, also on 9 March, the tagline read -- ==== HUGUENOTS-WALLOONS-EUROPE Mailing List ==== To unsubscribe (if you are in digest mode), type and send only the word unsubscribe to: Huguenots-Walloons-Europe-D-request@rootsweb.com All You Ever Wanted To Know About Unsubscribing........Hope this makes it all clear. Andrea (as list concierge)

Well, listers, when I threw in that casual remark about Norman French in my post a couple of days ago, I didn't realize what a flurry it would cause. So much of a flurry, in fact, that we are straying far off the subject of Huguenots/Walloons which is the focus of this list. But it's always gratifying to know that people are paying attention out there <g>. Regrettably, I will have to call a halt to this particular Norman French thread after today (10 Mar). The reason why I'm *not* cutting it off *right now* is that I have a few remarks of my own to make (admin's perogative <g>). So, if anyone has anything further to say on this subject, please do so now or not at all <g>. And to those who are tired of the thread or don't want to read anymore, my apologies and please make use of your Delete button. By mentioning Norman French in my earlier message, I was merely suggesting the idea that "French" names in England are not necessarily always of Huguenot origin and that they may have been in England long before the Huguenots arrived on those shores. Conversely, there are some thoroughly "English" names which *do* have Huguenot origins. P.H. Reaney's book "A Dictonary of British Surnames" mentions that the more widespread use of surnames began in England after the Norman Conquest. He then says: "The earliest local surnames of French origin are chiefly from Normandy, particularly from the departments of Calvados, Eure, Seine-Inférieure and La Manche." (Pg. XV in the Introduction) Also, on page 229 in another book: "History of the Surnames of the British Isles" by Cecil L'Estrange Ewen, under the heading Norman Surnames, is the following -- " Many of the great tenants holding of the Crown under William the Conqueror permanently adopted the names of their estates, English and French, as family names: DE ARUNDEL, DE BEAUCHAMP, DE BELESME, DE FERRERS, DE GAND (GHENT), LE LACY, DE MANDEVILLE, DE MONTGOMERY, DE MORTIMER, DE OILGI, DE PERCI, DE STADFORD, DE WARENNE, etc. Doubtless many other persons who had no interest in the estates, except to labour on them, were dubbed with the same names likewise when they settled in some other place. 'De', like the corresponding Dutch 'van' (and) German 'von' is popularly supposed to be a sign of aristocratic descent but in the records of the middle ages it was extremely common, and had no other function, than that of the English prepositions: 'of', 'from', or 'at'." Ewen then goes on to cite other examples such as servants being given the name of their master and some surnames originating as place names (eg. DE PARIS, DE VALERY, DE CHARTES, DE CORBEY). And, last, and at the risk of repeating what Bob has already said very nicely, here is the "condensed" version on the topic of Normans (ie. who were they?) as it appears in Collier's Enclyclopedia -- "Normans (were) Scandanavian invaders who settled Normandy from about 820, then conquered England, southern Italy and Sicily. Raids by these Northmen or Norsemen up the Seine River began before the middle of the nineth century. They gradually established themselves at the mouths of the Seine and other rivers in northern France. In 911 the Frankish king, Charles the Simple, granted Rollo and his band of Northmen the district about Rouen, to which additional territory was added a few years later. Scandanavian immigrants arrived in great numbers to colonize the land, and the area became known as Normandy. The Normans soon adopted the French language, customs and religion, and identified themselves with their new home, but retained their Scandanavian vigor and warlike proclivities. Although nominally subject to the French king, the Norman dukes remained semi-independent. In 1066, Duke William of Normandy, an illegitimate son of Robert I, the fifth duke, and descendent of Rollo, invaded England, defeated and killed King Harold at Hastings, and was crowned king. The Normans in England eventually became English, and left a permanent impress on the culture of the country. Later they made conquests in Wales and Ireland, and many settled in the Lowlands of Scotland." I'm sure that any search engine will lead you to further information on this topic. Just type in keywords such as William the Conqueror, Bayeux Tapestry, Battle of Hastings or even the date 1066. (Do those word conjure up long-past history lessons, anyone? <g>) Andrea

<snip> Exceptly, not in these times Gallo-Romans had *no* surnames either, at best in addition to the name later they used descriptions, e.g. of origin from a place, a region, or patronymics (what did others, too). Like in Germany, all over Europe surnames came up during the 13th century 'cause population increased. It became necessary then to differentiate between so many Johns, Peter, Henrys and Fredericks, also amongst the noble families. <snip> Well yes, and as it relates to the Normans one of the important things they did in their feudal system was write things down. This is a change William brought to the Norman system. Grants, inquisitions (like a probate after death), lawsuits and such were written down and preserved. Many still survive after 900 years. And as it relates to the Gallo-Romans, I'm not sure. In modern texts, they have something to more closely identify them, other that simply John. And usually it is something of a place name. But that could simply be an invention of the scribes that republished the original accounts as they became unusable. The Franks also have a similar system with their nobility: Charles the Bald, Charles the Fat, Charles the Magnificent, etc etc. But those terms weren't used in their times. Those are modern inventions. Travel was a non existent term to most during the earlier periods of this time, and I have read historical accounts telling that most would never leave their remote agricultural village for many generations. As long as the village was small there was no need for surnames as you say. I have read that the first to have a form of surname were those that traded for a village as they would have to travel to other villages to trade. So John might become John of Anytown. And the nobility had a similar problem and would be identified as Gulliame of Lotsaland, etc etc. Well, when these folks went to England with the Normans, they were now known by the town or fief where they originated. So Guilliame of Lotsaland would get a grant of land and it would be recorded by the king. But in vulgar latin, not French, and that means the latin form. Guiliame de la Lotsalandus. Well, the feudal system had very strict rules of inheritance agreed to often at the original time of the grant. It normally went to the eldest male, who might be named Joseph. Then he would become known as Joseph de la Lotsalandus, and so on down it would pass through the generations. Until around the 1300 to 1400's or so, when the "de" or "de la" went out of fashion or something and now it was simply a surname. So the value of having a "Norman" in the family is that the records are often written and preserved, and one can trace the "surname". Bob Fay

Great, Bob! ... and correct! My understanding and knowledge of these time periods, policies and terms is exactly the same. Exceptly, not in these times Gallo-Romans had *no* surnames either, at best in addition to the name later they used descriptions, e.g. of origin from a place, a region, or patronymics (what did others, too). Like in Germany, all over Europe surnames came up during the 13th century 'cause population increased. It became necessary then to differentiate between so many Johns, Peter, Henrys and Fredericks, also amongst the noble families. Juergen ***************************** Jürgen Fritsche (Germany) ----------------------------- genealogy@ib-fritsche.de ***************************** > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- > Von: Robert W Fay [mailto:madgrad77@clsurf.com] > Gesendet am: Freitag, 9. März 2001 21:04 > An: HUGUENOTS-WALLOONS-EUROPE-L@rootsweb.com > Betreff: RE: [HWE] Norman French > > Hi Marty & Peter and all, > > Well, now be a little careful here. > > First, the ancient period is generally defined as prior to 500AD. > From 500AD to > 1000AD is usually called the early medieval period (formerly Dark > Ages), from > 1000AD to 1500AD the later medieval period, and after 1500AD the > modern age. > > As far as I know there was no Norway in 911AD. What there were > was nomadic bands > or tribes of barbarians roaming the entire area now known as > Scandinavia. Historians > believe they were under population or food pressure and thus > sought out other lands. > As a group they are known as Vikings and attempted many invasions > all along the > coast of Western Europe, England, Ireland, Iceland, Greenland and > probably other > places as well. > > But the Normandy that was granted to Rollo was subsequently > enlarged over the years > and became what we know as Normandy of the medieval period. > > But the socalled Northmen were a minority there. The Frankish > people were in the > majority, probably followed by the Gallo-Romans. Neither the > Northmen nor the > Frankish were literate and neither had surnames. But Gallo-Romans > of this era had a > higher rate of literacy and were often employed by the rulers, > particularly among the > Frankish, in high government administrative positions and high > military position. And > the Gallo-Romans often had surnames and family histories some > predating this era by > hundreds of years. The Normans have a long history of > intermarriage with the > indigenous peoples and so it was in Normandy. > > So when you use the term Norman, are you referring to someone who > is actually a > "Northman" or someone who may be of Frankish or Gallo-Roman descent that > happened to live in Normandy at this time? The family histories > are really quite > different. > > But that is hardly the end of the problems with using the term Norman. > > The next big problem occurs when William invades England; the > socalled Norman > Conquest of England. He made large grants of land to those that > accompanied or > otherwise helped him in this endeavor. > > So, if an ancestor is found among those that accompanied William, > then they must be > from Normandy right? > > Well, no not exactly. Seems only about a third were actually from > Normandy. About a > third were from Flanders and another third from Brittany. And > people of those duchys > have very different family histories. > > So when you use the term Norman, do you mean someone from Normandy or > someone from Normandy, Brittany or Flanders that accompanied William? > > Well, it seems next William overhauled the English feudal system > and in the process > 92% of the real estate held by the "english" inhabitants changed > hands and most passed > into "Norman" hands. He did this by taking the best of the feudal > system in the Duchy > of Normandy and elsewhere on the continent, modifying it, and > then instituting it in > England. This was considered the most highly developed feudal > system of the time and > is known as the Norman feudal system. > > So when you use the term Norman, do you mean someone who has adopted and > pledged to live under the Norman feudal system and holds property > within that > system? Thats a common usage. > > But that is not the end of it. The Normans started in 911AD with > the most highly > developed naval craft, and built upon it with the addition of the > armored knight on > horseback. This was considered the most highly developed military > technology of the > time is often called the Norman Knight.. > > So if one has a Norman Knight in ones family history, does that > mean the family traces > back to Normandy? Hardly. They could have been from many places > and are only > called Norman because they adopted the Norman military technology > and feudal > system. > > I'm not sure of the exact ending date for the period termed the > "Norman" period, but > de Braise and de Lacy and many other Norman lords were ejected > from England by > John, and subsequently he was forced to agree to the Magna Carta > in the early 1200's > so the date of 1200 may be a few years too early. > > But Henry II clearly ruled within the Norman period and employed > many Norman > knights for his military endeveors in the Norman Conquest of > Ireland and and the > many battles in Western Europe. > > So if someone was a Norman of this period, where were they from? > Well, actually it > turns out Henry married Eleanor of Aquitaine and many or most of > these knights were > actually from what is now southern France. > > So, the term Norman to me has many different meanings, and it is > important to > consider the exact time and place and context that it is used in > order to derive any > useful information from it. > > Bob Fay > > > <snip> > Normandy was so named after this area was given over to Rollo the > Viking or > Hrolf the Ganger AKA Robert 1 Duke of Normandy in 911 A.D. by Charles the > Simple, 4th Great Grandson of Charlemagne. This was the main area > of Viking > invasion into the heart of France. Rollo was given this area of > the North of > France if he would protect it against the invasions of other > Vikings, and if > Rollo would be baptised which he was in 911 at Rouen. Rollo was the 3rd > Great Grandfather of William the Conqueror. > The area of Normandy was known as such after it was given to Rollo the > Viking or Northmen of Norway. > Marty Graybill > <snip> > > > ==== HUGUENOTS-WALLOONS-EUROPE Mailing List ==== > Be a participating subscriber! Post your surname interests often. > Once a month is about right, or more often if you have new details. > Address your post to Huguenots-Walloons-Europe-L@rootsweb.com > > > ============================== > The easiest way to stay in touch with your family and friends! > http://www.myfamily.com/banner.asp?ID=RWLIST1 >

Hi Everyone, It has been a while since I posted my surname. I am researching Laux JENTER born circa 1580 in France. He escaped into Germany and settled into Heselwangen. His son was Laux Richter JENTER born 1633, I am not sure where. Laux Richter JENTER's son was Laux JENTER and he was born in Heselwangen, Germany in 1654. I have church records from that date for Laux JENTER born 1654 in Germany, forward to myself. I am attempting to link JENTER's found on the IGI in the United Kingdom with my JENTER's, in Germany. Dates of birth on the IGI for the UK from lead me to believe that the UK JENTER's were also Huguenots, and may have been related to my Huguenots. There is a possibility that the JENTER name might have been JENDRE, JENDER, and have come from Herbsheim, Alsace Lorraine, France. The name could have also been GENDER, GENDRE. Any information about any of these names would be most appreciated. Thank you. Karen JENTER Michigan USA

> Hi Chris and other Listers > > Thank you for your response. I realise that my family history is about these > names, BUT in London after they fled France. It would be interesting to me > to make a link back to northern France. This is where I have to go next. I > have included some of my information here and maybe you will spot a common > ancestor to yours. > > A direct line can be traced back from: > Terry and Tresa Knight and their children, (Abingdon U.K.) > Matthew, David and Thomas Maisey, (Portsmouth U.K) > And Heather and Elaine Maisey, (Onoda NY State) > to Jaques BEUZEVILLE and Marianne GUILLEMAND. These are all the > grandchildren of Jean Barbet, my mother-in-law. > > Jacques BEUZEVILLE fled France with his wife Marianne GUILLEMAND. Marianne > was also a member of a Huguenot family and many of her relatives also set up > residence in the Spitalfields area of London. Her brothers lived as > neighbors in Duke Street and the Old Artillery Ground. Enclosed here is some > information from the GUILLEMAND family tree as compiled by Hugh Casement. > The GUILLEMAND Family tree is an example of a very well documented family > history. The detail in this family tree is the result of research through > several generations and fastidious recording of sources and facts. This > family is fortunate in having some artefacts passed down through the > generations. This family history is linked to MARIANNE GUILLEMAND and ours > through Jacques BEUZEVILLE. > > Jaques BEUZEVILLE with his wife Marianne Guillemard escaped from France to > England in 1709 or 1710, with their eldest child, James. Their second son, > Pierre was born in London about 1712. They then returned to France, and > several more children were born there. They moved permanently to London > again before 1728 and Jaques commenced a silk manufactory. The mulberry > trees, necessary for the silk worms to thrive, were planted on land behind > the factory at 24, Steward Street, which was finally sold in 1827. The > BEUZEVILLE sons shared the running of the Beuzeville business and were also > active members of the Huguenot Society in London and the Church. > > The Spitalfields area of London has, for centuries, been a place of > settlement for new refugee groups. Today a prominent religious group is > Islamic and buildings once used as synagogues and/or churches are now used > as mosques. > > Spitalfields, in the early years of the eighteenth century, prospered as > Huguenot refugees from Canterbury also migrated there to join those already > established. By the middle of the eighteenth century a thriving > manufacturing industry existed, assisted by a growing export trade to > America, and the proximity of London where silks were much in demand. > > > > Line of Descent of Samuel BEUZEVILLE of Gruchet-le-Vallas Normandy, France > through Jaques BARBET to Jeanette Claire, Sheila and Sylvia BARBET > (Note – the line going back to Pierre GUILLEMAND can be taken from Marianne > GUILLEMAND - the information about the GUILLEMAND was passed to me by Hugh > Casement) > > Generation 1 Samuel BEUZEVILLE > Children: Jacques BEUZEVILLE (c. 1685-1745) > Anne BEUZEVILLE > Esther BEUZEVILLE > > Generation 2 Jacques BEUZEVILLE (c. 1685-1745) married Marie Guillemard > (daughter of Pierre Guillemard). > Children: Jacques BEUZEVILLE (c. 1709-1763) > Pierre BEUZEVILLE (1711-1767) > Stephen BEUZEVILLE > Samuel BEUZEVILLE (1717-1781) > Jean Baptiste BEUZEVILLE (died 1771) > Abraham BEUZEVILLE (born 1 October 1724) > Susanne BEUZEVILLE (born 26 March 1728) > Judith BEUZEVILLE (born 17 August 1729) > Esther Anne BEUZEVILLE (born 5 September 1730) > Daniel BEUZEVILLE (born 4 May 1731) > > Generation 3 Jacques BEUZEVILLE (c. 1709-1763) married Elizabeth BARBET on 4 > October 1736 (daughter of Pierre BARBET) > Children Elizabeth BEUZEVILLE (born 10 March 1738) > Magdaleine BEUZEVILLE (born December 1742) > Esther BEUZEVILLE (born 1743) married (1) Daniel Oliver; > > (2) Pierre Huet > Mary BEUZEVILLE (born 1745) > James BEUZEVILLE (1750-1799) married (1) Elizabeth? (2) > Mary Jacob > Pierre BEUZEVILLE (1711-1767) married (1) Elizabeth > Roussel (born 18 March 1708/09) > > (2) Susannah Davids in 1760 (no issue). > > Generation 4 James BEUZEVILLE (1750-1799) married (1) Elizabeth? (2) Mary > Jacob > Children James and Elizabeth no issue (as far as I know) > James and Mary > Stephen (1784 – 1862) > Elizabeth (1798 issue) > Sophia married John Perrel and had 1 daughter > Amelia died unmarried > > Generation 5 Elizabeth BEUZEVILLE, b.1775, married James BARBET, (refer to > notes below) > Children Elizabeth, b.1798, married Samuel Byles, son of John Curtis > Byles and Brigette BEUZEVILLE. > James, b.1799, no issue > Marie, b.1800, no issue > Stephen, b.1803, no issue > Anne, b.1804, no issue > Caroline Anne, b1806, married Elli Lawrence, issue. > John William, b.1807, issue > Sophie, b.1813 > Amelia, b.1816 > > Generation 6 John William BARBET (1807) married Harriet Kemp in 1826. > Children Harriet 1826 > John Charles 1829 married Mary Ann Bone (1850) > Amelia 1831 > Emma 1834 > Edwin 1836 married Mary Ann (18?) > James Alfred 1840 married Martha (18) > Arthur 1845 married Ellen Clayton > Frederick1848 married Georgina Ellis > Stephen 1849 married Mercy Simpson 1850 > > Generation 7 Arthur BARBET married Ellen Clayton > Children Arthur Richard 1867 > Alfred 1869 > Eliza 1874 > Florence 1877 > Martha 1880 > > Generation 8 Arthur BARBET married Clara Watt > Children included Arthur Henry 1900 married Alice Janet Ashwell (b.1895) > James > Nell > > Generation 9 Arthur Henry BARBET (1900) married Alice Janet Ashwell (b.1895) > Children Jeanette Claire married Charles Henry Peter Maisey > Sheila married Arthur King > Sylvia married Sydney Revell > > Here this line of BARBET stops. > Looking back at the family tree, there do seem to be a lot of female births > and descendants who died without children. John William and Harriet BARBET > had a son Edwin from whom are descended the Harrison-BARBETs . > > > Jacques BARBET was the son of Jean BARBET and Susanne LEVESQUE > Evidence such as I have so far suggests that the Barbet refugees originated > from Bolbec and its surroundings in Normandy, Northern France. This is the > most likely location as other family ancestors, the Beuzeville, and Levesque > families also have their roots in this region. However, Jean Barbet and > Susanne Levesque are as far back as I can be sure of the line. There then > appear three possible grand fathers for Jaques (born 1729?) They are > >  Jean Barbet a Merchant and explorer from Isle de Re, Western France; >  Jean Barbet whose family were priests and doctors in the Montauban region > of southern France >  Jean Barbet from Pont Audemer, in Normandy > > All are in England at the end of the 17th century, but a making definite > link further back than Jacques Barbet and Susanne Levesque is a challenge > for the future. Two Susanne Levesques from separate families are christened > at Huguenot churches in London within 10 years of each other. Which of the > two is an ancestor is not clear. As already indicated, there are several > Jean Barbet’s who could be Jacques Barbet’s father. > > This is a brick wall in the sense I have visited the Huguenot Library in > London and have done what I can, but I know there are other avenues to > follow one day (when I retire!) > > Another question I have not answered is who Elizabeth Barbet was. Was she > related to Jaques? > > Hope I haven't put too much info here but if you are linked it will be worth > it. Its strange that one of my own line BESANT is being researched by many > distant cousins and we all seem to share a gene that makes us interested in > genealogy! I have not had this luck with others lines. > > Sylvia M. > > P.S. Maisey was originally supposed to havew been de MAISIED - again > Huguenot refugees. I cannot verify this at all - any clues? > > > >

Well done, Squire Bob Fay! Tis a good presentation as an introduction to the multi-facted Norman cultures. Squire Cliff of Canada

Hi Cliff, Thanks. I hope I didn't make any mistakes! But the worst of it is, in the interest of brevity, it leaves out so much. Heck, I didn't even mention my favorite: The Angevin Empire! And those "Normans" Bob Fay Date forwarded: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 14:10:12 -0700 Date sent: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 16:10:07 -0500 From: Cliff Huber <chuber@alumni.lakeheadu.ca> Subject: Re: [HWE] Norman French To: HUGUENOTS-WALLOONS-EUROPE-L@rootsweb.com Forwarded by: HUGUENOTS-WALLOONS-EUROPE-L@rootsweb.com Well done, Squire Bob Fay! Tis a good presentation as an introduction to the multi-facted Norman cultures. Squire Cliff of Canada ==== HUGUENOTS-WALLOONS-EUROPE Mailing List ==== To unsubscribe (if you are in digest mode), type and send only the word unsubscribe to: Huguenots-Walloons-Europe-D-request@rootsweb.com ============================== Visit Ancestry.com for a FREE 14-Day Trial and enjoy access to the #1 Source for Family History Online. Go to: http://www.ancestry.com/subscribe/subscribetrial1y.asp?sourcecode=F11HB

Hi Marty & Peter and all, Well, now be a little careful here. First, the ancient period is generally defined as prior to 500AD. From 500AD to 1000AD is usually called the early medieval period (formerly Dark Ages), from 1000AD to 1500AD the later medieval period, and after 1500AD the modern age. As far as I know there was no Norway in 911AD. What there were was nomadic bands or tribes of barbarians roaming the entire area now known as Scandinavia. Historians believe they were under population or food pressure and thus sought out other lands. As a group they are known as Vikings and attempted many invasions all along the coast of Western Europe, England, Ireland, Iceland, Greenland and probably other places as well. But the Normandy that was granted to Rollo was subsequently enlarged over the years and became what we know as Normandy of the medieval period. But the socalled Northmen were a minority there. The Frankish people were in the majority, probably followed by the Gallo-Romans. Neither the Northmen nor the Frankish were literate and neither had surnames. But Gallo-Romans of this era had a higher rate of literacy and were often employed by the rulers, particularly among the Frankish, in high government administrative positions and high military position. And the Gallo-Romans often had surnames and family histories some predating this era by hundreds of years. The Normans have a long history of intermarriage with the indigenous peoples and so it was in Normandy. So when you use the term Norman, are you referring to someone who is actually a "Northman" or someone who may be of Frankish or Gallo-Roman descent that happened to live in Normandy at this time? The family histories are really quite different. But that is hardly the end of the problems with using the term Norman. The next big problem occurs when William invades England; the socalled Norman Conquest of England. He made large grants of land to those that accompanied or otherwise helped him in this endeavor. So, if an ancestor is found among those that accompanied William, then they must be from Normandy right? Well, no not exactly. Seems only about a third were actually from Normandy. About a third were from Flanders and another third from Brittany. And people of those duchys have very different family histories. So when you use the term Norman, do you mean someone from Normandy or someone from Normandy, Brittany or Flanders that accompanied William? Well, it seems next William overhauled the English feudal system and in the process 92% of the real estate held by the "english" inhabitants changed hands and most passed into "Norman" hands. He did this by taking the best of the feudal system in the Duchy of Normandy and elsewhere on the continent, modifying it, and then instituting it in England. This was considered the most highly developed feudal system of the time and is known as the Norman feudal system. So when you use the term Norman, do you mean someone who has adopted and pledged to live under the Norman feudal system and holds property within that system? Thats a common usage. But that is not the end of it. The Normans started in 911AD with the most highly developed naval craft, and built upon it with the addition of the armored knight on horseback. This was considered the most highly developed military technology of the time is often called the Norman Knight.. So if one has a Norman Knight in ones family history, does that mean the family traces back to Normandy? Hardly. They could have been from many places and are only called Norman because they adopted the Norman military technology and feudal system. I'm not sure of the exact ending date for the period termed the "Norman" period, but de Braise and de Lacy and many other Norman lords were ejected from England by John, and subsequently he was forced to agree to the Magna Carta in the early 1200's so the date of 1200 may be a few years too early. But Henry II clearly ruled within the Norman period and employed many Norman knights for his military endeveors in the Norman Conquest of Ireland and and the many battles in Western Europe. So if someone was a Norman of this period, where were they from? Well, actually it turns out Henry married Eleanor of Aquitaine and many or most of these knights were actually from what is now southern France. So, the term Norman to me has many different meanings, and it is important to consider the exact time and place and context that it is used in order to derive any useful information from it. Bob Fay <snip> Normandy was so named after this area was given over to Rollo the Viking or Hrolf the Ganger AKA Robert 1 Duke of Normandy in 911 A.D. by Charles the Simple, 4th Great Grandson of Charlemagne. This was the main area of Viking invasion into the heart of France. Rollo was given this area of the North of France if he would protect it against the invasions of other Vikings, and if Rollo would be baptised which he was in 911 at Rouen. Rollo was the 3rd Great Grandfather of William the Conqueror. The area of Normandy was known as such after it was given to Rollo the Viking or Northmen of Norway. Marty Graybill <snip>

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Hello, list, InaFri@aol.com wrote: > Could you please post a brief statement, what families you are looking for in > which area and the time range, and maybe tell a bit about their profession if > known. I would love to be able to post all that information about my Huguenot ancestors - if only I knew it! I know the name - Charles DE AZELEY, and the country or origin - FRANCE - and the country he settled in - N. IRELAND - and that's all! Granted, I have done very little searching, even in NIR, as it seems such an insurmountable task. Well, maybe in my next life.....sigh. In the meantime, shortly I'll be unsubbing for a few days while I switch to a new computer and a new ISP. Talk to you later. Cheers! Betty

Normandy was a separte entity in the 11th Century, its ruling class being mostly 'Norse-men' (hence Normandy) who had settled there in the previous centuries. The Norman invasion of england took place in 1066 AD, thus the Norman period would best be put between 1000-1200 maximum, this can also be placed as mid Medieval as the Medieval period stretched from about 900-the end of the 15th Century. Peter de Loriol 74 Elms Road London, SW4 9EW, GB Fax: (0)207 622 4505 Tel : (0)207 622 9623

Hello, Normandy was so named after this area was given over to Rollo the Viking or Hrolf the Ganger AKA Robert 1 Duke of Normandy in 911 A.D. by Charles the Simple, 4th Great Grandson of Charlemagne. This was the main area of Viking invasion into the heart of France. Rollo was given this area of the North of France if he would protect it against the invasions of other Vikings, and if Rollo would be baptised which he was in 911 at Rouen. Rollo was the 3rd Great Grandfather of William the Conqueror. The area of Normandy was known as such after it was given to Rollo the Viking or Northmen of Norway. Marty Graybill > -----Original Message----- > From: Robert W Fay [mailto:madgrad77@clsurf.com] > Sent: Friday, March 09, 2001 5:38 AM > To: HUGUENOTS-WALLOONS-EUROPE-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: [HWE] Norman French > > > Hi Andrea and all! > > What exactly do you mean by the term "Norman" and in what period > of time are you > referring to Andrea? This term seems to have a multitude of > meanings, and that can > create confusion. > > Bob Fay > <snip> > For example, the name may have arrived in England through the > Norman French -- "amis" translates as "friends". > <snip> > Would welcome comments from lurkers and others! Andrea > > > ==== HUGUENOTS-WALLOONS-EUROPE Mailing List ==== > When posting to the Huguenots-Walloons-Europe list: > Your subject line must reflect the content of your message. > eg. include topic or surname(s) and/or date and/or location. > > > ============================== > Create a FREE family website at MyFamily.com! > http://www.myfamily.com/banner.asp?ID=RWLIST2 >

Hi Andrea and all! What exactly do you mean by the term "Norman" and in what period of time are you referring to Andrea? This term seems to have a multitude of meanings, and that can create confusion. Bob Fay <snip> For example, the name may have arrived in England through the Norman French -- "amis" translates as "friends". <snip> Would welcome comments from lurkers and others! Andrea

Greetings, all -- This is in response to the post from Dynda <Dynalan@aol.com> on 27 Feb re: surname AMOS/AMICE. I'm always happy to hear from one of our many many lurkers! <g> I'm also very interested in AMOS (in Kent, ENG) because that was my great grandmother's maiden name (but no Huguenot connection in that line, as far as I know). Dynda, you're right that the AMOS name I mentioned in my own post -- which was on 27 Feb, with subject line: Huguenot connection? re: FLEET/VAN FLEET (ENG) -- had no Huguenot connection himself but he did marry into a French/Huguenot line (in Canterbury). In fact, I have not found the AMOS surname (or its spelling variants) in any of the French Protestant records I have studied. I would be interested to hear from you any details you have about Huguenots with this surname. (Hope you'll come out of lurking mode and post again soon <g>.) I am not discounting the fact that the name may originally have been French -- I just haven't found evidence of it in England. Dynda, you cite the AMICE surname in France. However, not everyone who left France was a Huguenot. For example, the name may have arrived in England through the Norman French -- "amis" translates as "friends". You also mentioned that AMICE and AMOS were frequently interchangeable in your French research. The case is similar in Kent records with AMOS being the the most common but other spellings popping up often, usually because the writer was spelling the name phonetically and because people were not as concerned about "correct" spelling in centuries past. As a result, it isn't uncommon to find various spellings in different records for the same individual(s). For example, as well as AMOS and AMICE, there is AMES, AMIES, AMIS, AMOSS, AMYS and EMMIS. Would welcome comments from lurkers and others! Andrea