Hi William The PCC wills thing is always a difficult way of tracing ancestors. There are a series of extracts of Huguenot family wills at the Hug Soc Library, usually called the Wagner Wills after the guy who made all the extracts, but he does omit some interesting material. Email the Librarian, Donald Pohl, at [email protected] with the names/dates of your people and I'll see whether I have time to do a quick look up next week when I'm in the Library. Regards Tony Fuller

Could any reply please be posted to the list as I too would be interested to know the answer to this one. Best wishes and kind regards to all, Helen, West Sussex, UK ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Johnson" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2003 12:42 PM Subject: [HWE] London Huguenots > Can someone give me an idea of where people who used the Threadneedle St. > church would have been buried in the 1680-1800 period? I have been unable to > find wills of any of my huguenot family in the PCC wills index- did London > huguenots tend to use the smaller London courts more often than the PCC to > prove wills? > > Thanks, > > Will

Hello Listers, I was looking at a French map and a noticed a place called Haguenau north of Strasbourg - does this place have anything to do with the origin of the word Huguenot? Will _________________________________________________________________ It's fast, it's easy and it's free. Get MSN Messenger today! http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger

Can someone give me an idea of where people who used the Threadneedle St. church would have been buried in the 1680-1800 period? I have been unable to find wills of any of my huguenot family in the PCC wills index- did London huguenots tend to use the smaller London courts more often than the PCC to prove wills? Thanks, Will _________________________________________________________________ Use MSN Messenger to send music and pics to your friends http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger

Hello Mary and All, We, as a family project, have an interest in some of the DE SAVOIE family although I venture that our interests are long prior to the period that interests your work. However, in saying such Madeleine DE SAVOIE married Anne DE MONTMORENCY on 10th of January, 1525 which is in the general time period of your enquiry. So that we may all update, add to, or just make further knowledge available to all fellow listers, may we exchange information as best we can via this list ? Kind Regards, Peter Leroy

Thanks Tony for the explanation of the elders and the Huguenot church structure, I had never realised it was so organised. Did the huguenot churches receive any assistance from the Church of England? Will _________________________________________________________________ Get Hotmail on your mobile phone http://www.msn.co.uk/msnmobile

Hello All, Thank you to Howard for his 'point' toward an interesting website. I do note that once again a difference this time in birth dates of the great hero DE COLIGNY Once again there is mention of a second wife. Is this a case of "if enough people say something is right then it is ?" As for Tony's thoughts, I too agree with the notion that there is a difficulty with the lineage of a supposed adopted child of a supposed second wife. I shall remain hopeful and with patience that we can come to a unanimous conclusion to resolve this issue. It is rather difficult to begin a short work on Gaspard, the second one, if one cannot even get the date of birth correct. Kind Regards, Peter Leroy

Hi Guys I know it's nothing to do with this group, but the Dundas' of Arniston, now there's a tale - India stuff tho. And the most wonderful web of HEIC ship names, mariners, it just goes on forever. Obviously, my other passion Regards Tony

Andrea - Thank you for these regular re-postings from the MBP, which I neglect to look at often enough. I give here a rely that I sent, in the hope that it may jog the mind of a lister concerning the name of RENNY, which I have mentioned before. Elizabeth - Most interested in your RANNIE / RAINNEY family with a possible Huguenot or Walloon linkage. I am interested in the name RENNY, (that of my mother), which I have traced back to Ussan, near Montrose, Scotland, as far as the mid C17th, (under the name of RANEY). There is a (very slight) indication that the family came over from the Low Countries; I have not been able to get any further. The name RENNIE is more frequent in Scotland, but I have not made a connection. If you have come across any RENNYs in your wanderings I would be most interested. I have a RANNIE on the other side of my family, (my paternal grandmother was DUNDAS of Arniston), details, such as they are, below: Descendants of David Rannie, Capt, of Melville Castle. 1 RANNIE, David, Capt, of Melville Castle. b: Unknown in ? d: 1764 in ? 2 RANNIE, Elizabeth b: 1750 in ? d: Unknown in ? .... +DUNDAS, Henry, 1st Viscount Melville b: 28 April 1742 in ? m: 16 August 1765 in ? d: 29 May 1811 in ? <snip> Yours Aye Andrew Sellon East Anglia Soup and fish explain half the emotions in life. Rev. Sydney Smith 1771-1854, Canon of St. Paul's. From: "Andrea Vogel" <[email protected]> > Just so you won't think I've disappeared again, > here's another forwarded Message Board Post {MBP}. <snip> > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > Date Posted on HWE Board: June 5, 2003 > > Wondering if any one has come across the surname > RANNIE or RAINNEY in their family tree related to a : > John Thomas RANNIE who married a Ann PEACOCK > 5/8/1819 St Martin in the Fields London England? > <snip>

Tony - Yes, to you and other list members this is only too obvious. However, it is amazing the desperate claims that some wanting people will make, and tricks they play, in attempts to link themselves to notable people. The question they should ask themselves is whether or not they are descended by BLOOD. As an instance, I am a blood relative of Rev. Sydney Smith's wife, a PYBUS, but not of him. (Although working on it, I believe there is a good but unproven possibility of a blood link between his and my Smiths in Northants; Smith is not the most easy of names to work on!). The most I could claim is that he is 'a connection' of mine. If I print out my tree in full the topmost name is SMITH and the last JONES, which keeps me firmly in my place. From one who has ag. labs, farriers, millers, murderers and pornographers in his tree. Yours Aye Andrew Sellon East Anglia She seems to suppose, because she has dedicated her mind to the subject, that her opinion must necessarily be valuable upon it; forgetting it to be barely possible that her application may have made her more wrong. Rev. Sydney Smith 1771-1854, Canon of St. Paul's From: "Tony Fuller" <[email protected]> > > Perhaps I'm stating the obvious here but if somebody adopts a child after the death of her husband - who would, by virtue of the laws of nature, physics even common sense (which I appreciate might not be too common) never have seen the child, except in some post mortem, cosmological way - how can the child claim to be a child of the marriage (which is dissolved with the death of the partner) and surely any descendants of that child cannot claim the male - DEAD - person as an ancestor. > > They may have inherited a name, but that is all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Doesn't mean that they are his descendants at all, just her legal descendants. >

Hi Peter and all, From: <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2003 7:35 PM snip > My enquiry concerns his wife or is that wives ? > > I have multiple and very reliable sources for attaching > Charlotte DE LAVAL (Montfort) as his wife and mother of > his children, 5 sons and 2 daughters. > > I have read with some doubts that he married for a > second time in the year before his death. Supposedly he > married Jacqueline D'ENTREMONT > snip > There is also a story by a Pere Clarence d'Entremont, > Histoire du Cap-Sable de l'an Mil au Traité de Paris > (1763), Volume 3, pp. 806-810 where he offers that this > supposed second wife adopted a child after the death of > Gaspard and from there many on the North American > continent seem to be making claim to an attachment to > the DE COLIGNY family. > > And so my enquiry, and please do quote sources that you > believe to be reliable. > > Who married Gaspar (Gaspard) DE COLIGNY born 16th of > February, 1518 Chatillon sur Loing, with when and where ? snip For those who do not have easy access to one of the best sources, viz. Europäische Stammtafeln, then I will suggest a relative new web resource which may well be the best on the web right now for what you want. See: http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00003730&tree=LEO Note that he shows a different birth date than what you found for Gaspard de Coligny. He also shows a dau. born to Coligny's second wife a few months after he was murdered. Is this the one your other source had alleged was adopted? Be sure to click on the Pedagree and Descendancy links at the top of the page. And note his sources at the bottom, which include Europäische Stammtafeln. Regards, Howard [email protected]

Hi Peter Perhaps I'm stating the obvious here but if somebody adopts a child after the death of her husband - who would, by virtue of the laws of nature, physics even common sense (which I appreciate might not be too common) never have seen the child, except in some post mortem, cosmological way - how can the child claim to be a child of the marriage (which is dissolved with the death of the partner) and surely any descendants of that child cannot claim the male - DEAD - person as an ancestor. They may have inherited a name, but that is all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Doesn't mean that they are his descendants at all, just her legal descendants. Regards Tony Fuller

A list Bull's Eye? It is such coincidences that I find make this addictive interest of ours so fascinating. Yours Aye Andrew Sellon East Anglia No eel in the well-sanded fist of a cook-maid, upon the eve of being skinned, ever twisted and writhed as an orthodox parson does when he is compelled by the gripe of reason to admit anything in favour of a Dissenter. Rev. Sydney Smith 1771-1854, Canon of St. Paul's. From: "Tony Fuller" <[email protected]> > <snip> > Two people responded with enquiries about the same person, one US and the other Aus - do you know about each other, both researching the same person. > <snip>

Hi Guys Although Paul Forestier appears in the list of Ministers for St Jean, there are no references to him or his family in the general index. In addition, I can't find anything about him for the same period in the La Patente Spitalfields Index, the only Forestier reference being a baptism of 1737 where the mother was a Marie Forestier, married to Jean Gabart. >From the Threadneedle Street Consistory Minutes of 28 September 1679, my comments in parenthesis: Mr Henri Forestier, previously student of theology, repented before the Consistory his great fault in abjuring our religion in Paris nearly two years ago. For special reasons (unspecified) he was received to make reconnaissance before the Consistory, after his promises and our prayers that he would persevere in the truth to the end. (This is a very odd entry, I have not found any written in a similar and such a strong way) There are five temoignages for Forestier in the Threadneedle Street records for the period 1673 to 1713, tho none for Paul, one for a female Forrestier in 1681 and a further two (1681 and 1686) for Foretier. Found a Paul Forestier as a Godfather in a Threadneedle Street baptism (26 October 1709) of Jean Arnaud, son of Jean and Ester Arnaud, Godmother Margaurite Arnaud. And two Forestier women, one with 4 un-named children were given relief by Threadneedle Street Consistory because of their poor state, 1680s/1690s. Hope this lot help in some way Regards Tony Fuller

Hi William Yes, the places given next to the Elders names were their town of origin in France. And yes, again, once the furore in France over Religion had died down a substantial number, but not a majority, of Huguenots did return to France (ask Peter Leroy about his family) and many of them were able to reclaim land and property. But, quite often the process was difficult, especially when the property had already been occupied, sold on or whatever and many Huguenot families became involved in substantial legal cases over this issue. For a good overview of the French take on this, try to get The Persecution of Huguenots and French Economic Development by Scoville. Although some of his arguments are flawed, and its academic, its still worth a reading. The French and other Stranger Churches were not organised on a Parish basis as we would recognise it but attracted attendees who were attracted by the various elements of the particular Church or Chapel, for example whether the Church was conformist (followed the Anglican Book of Prayer) or non-conformist, the style of the preacher, any number of variables. But, Threadneedle Street was the senior of the French/Walloon Churches and the other Churches tended to spring up as the number of Strangers in an area started to increase. The Church was 'managed' by a Consistory, effectively a Church Council, which employed the Minister/Ministers, managed the affairs of the Church and dispensed Charity and punishment as they needed to. The various French Churches in London then sent delegates to a Coetus, the equivalent of a Synod, where matters of joint interest were discussed, doctrinal issues were discussed, legal matters resolved (or not) and that type of thing. The Elders were the equivalent of Church Wardens, they were the people in the various Churches with the most power, being able to dispense pain and pleasure in equal amount and being responsible for the good order of the Church, including the appointment or dismissal of the Minister/s. Probably, more importantly from our research point of view, they were the people responsible for examining new applicants for the Church, mainly (but not exclusively) Huguenot refugees having first heard their reconnaissance or examined their temongnages from their previous French or English Church. If the churches' area of influence was large enough, the 'parish' would be divided into areas (quartiers) and there would usually be one or two Elders allocated/assigned to each area to look after the parishioners, each of the Elders then sitting on the Consistory. Between 1679-1692 for example, Threadneedle Street had 18 quartiers showing both the size of the community/congregation and the size of the Consistory. In Churches with smaller area of influence, like some of the Spitalfields Chapels, there may have been only two Elders at any one time, giving them quite a lot of power. In all cases, especially Threadneedle Street, the Elders tended to be the better-off, great and the good, community or national political brokers, rather than the average member of the congregation. The Elders were supported by the Deacons, again elected on a congregation/church/area basis, who were also members of the Consistory but had a lesser role than the Elders, being more involved in the 'hands-on' end of what happened, visiting the poor, making sure that fines were paid, reporting scallywags, that sort of thing. Deacons would often be upwardly socially mobile and later were elected Elder. Hope this helps Regards Tony Fuller

Is anyone researching the de Savoie/Savoy family? Isaac de Savoie was christened at the French Huguenot Church on Threadneedle Street in London in 1617. His parents were Joshue and Madeleine de Savoie. In 1670 he was in the colony of Maryland where his name became Savoy, and in 1677 he was in the colony of New Jersey. He died in New Jersey around 1695. I've been told that before he went to Maryland he was in the New England states, but I've not found any proof of that. Any info will be greatly appreciated. Thanks. Mary

Hi Guys Well, HWE works in mysterious ways, its wonders to perform .... Two people responded with enquiries about the same person, one US and the other Aus - do you know about each other, both researching the same person. You probably do but if not, mail again and if the other person says its ok, I'll put you in touch. In the meantime, I know nothing about him at all but I'll have a look through what I have here today and get back to you. Regards Tony Fuller

Tony, Thankyou very much for posting the list- could someone explain what the elders of the church were? Were the places written by their names their place of origin or the place they were living at the time? When did it become safe for huguenots to return to France? Were they able to reclaim any lost land or possessions? Thanks, Will _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail messages direct to your mobile phone http://www.msn.co.uk/msnmobile

Here's another forwarded Board post, listers. Since it mentions the Channel Islands, I've already replied to it, giving info about two pages on our website which outline resources for the Channel Islands. In case you're interested in this too, those two pages are here: http://www.island.net/~andreav/hugschi.htm and here: http://www.island.net/~andreav/orgsaddschi.htm. And if you want to add a reply yourself, see end of message for instructions on how to do that. Andrea (as list concierge) -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] Date Posted on HWE Board : July 10, 2003 Message Board Post as follows: According to Agnew's Third Volume of the French Protestant Exiles from France (London: Reeves and Turner, 1874), the family FERDANT settled in UK and Ireland during the reign of Louis XIV (1643-1714). My 5XGreat-grandmother was a Marie FERDANT married in Guernsey, channel islands c.1740. Guernsey could easily have been a stopping-off place between France and England. Perhaps the family stayed? Does anyone know of any good resources where I can track the history of the family? I have so far come up completely blank. I know her father was born in France and his name was Jean. There seem to be FEUARDENTs in Grosville, but that is as much as I know. Any help hugely appreciated! Mandy Bennett ============================================== To reply to the above message, go to the HWE Board via: http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec/msg/rw/Fq.2ADEAE/180 then click on Post Reply. Your reply may then be forwarded to this list. END of Message Board Post

Hello, all -- Just so you won't think I've disappeared again, here's another forwarded Message Board Post {MBP}. It outlines a commonly-heard problem -- ie. that there is a family story about a French connection but just what that connection is is unknown and, as well, the time period (1800s) is too late for Huguenots. So, really, what needs to be done is to get back a few generations, at least somewhere into the 1700s, and preferably earlier than that. However, in English research, that's easier said than done because there was no national index of records of any sort before mid-1837 when civil registration began. So, unless you have a good idea where to start looking for a person -- ie. a particular parish or group of parishes -- it's like the typical needle and haystack situation. If you want to reply to this forwarded post, see the very end of the message. Andrea (as list concierge) -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] Date Posted on HWE Board: June 5, 2003 Message Board Post as follows: Hello: Wondering if any one has come across the surname RANNIE or RAINNEY in their family tree related to a : John Thomas RANNIE who married a Ann PEACOCK 5/8/1819 St Martin in the Fields London England? Children: William 1821, Ann 1822, Amy 1823-1826, Rachel 1826, Amy 1831, Thomas 1834. All born & Baptised in Chelsea St Lukes Church MDX/London. Believe that John Thomas RANNIE's parents may be a Thomas & Amy RANNIE? That he had a brother Thomas RANNIE (~1800-1844 Chelsea ). John Thomas RANNIE was born unknown ~ 1799 (probably London/MDX). He died November 1846 prior to 1851 census. His wife Ann PEACOCK RANNIE died 1848 -again prior to 1851 census. So no help in establishing where they were born. All avenues to connect them to a Scottish line have failed. We have been told there was 'French blood in the family'. Could RANNIE / RAINNEY be a French Huguenot name? Any help & advice much appreciated - we have come to a block and not sure where to go from here! Many thanks . Regards Elizabeth Visser (Perth WA) [email protected] =============================================== To reply, go to the original message on the HWE Board by clicking on: http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec/msg/an/Fq.2ADEAE/171 then, once you're on the Board, click on Post Reply. Your reply may then be forwarded to this list. END of Message Board Post