Hi Peter and Listers Peter, I agree with all the points that you make. When at Uni, we were told that scientific method was 'If A then B, if B, then C' not 'I think that I might have B now lets see whether I can manufacture A to suit my needs or wants', which is what seems to be happening here. I think that if a child is adopted, post mortem of one of the people in a marriage, there can be NO justification of that adopted child to claim any familial links with the deceased. After all, what they have in common is a name, no more. It's like me saying that I'm related to the Fuller brewing family in the UK, the only known link, which is no more than a coincidence, is that the guy who runs it is also Anthony Fuller, one of 5 people with the same name that I know of and none of us are related. If people are doing so, I think it's part of what I call genealogical social climbing, like people who search for links back to the Norman Conquest, making huge leaps of faith - and often logic - to 'prove' a relationship with a noble or famous (not usually infamous tho) family. Unfortunately, for whatever reasons best known to themselves, there are any number of people who share our family history passion that seem more intent on collecting countries of origin, noble families, being descended from the Mayflower immigrants, married Indian princesses (there are hundreds of reports of British soldiers marrying Indian princesses in India over a period of 200 years, just to cover up the fact they were living with Indian women and having illegitimate children) just to acquire some social kudos. I think that Andrew Sellon has the right idea with his ag labs, pornographers and the like. My lot were all working class, ordinary people and I'm happy with that because they made me what I am. The bottom line is be happy with what you have in your family line and don't invent anything because if you do, eventually the HWE familial analysts will get you!!!!!!!!!!!!! Regards Tony Fuller

Salut! Blanca Pere, For the benefit of the majority of subscribers I shall respond in English language. However if you have any difficulty I will attempt to write in French. Much can be written on the literal translation of the name Pere such as meaning 'Father' or Prénom nom de son père, meaning Fathers given name. Or another meaning is the religious title, Father, as in a priest. Pere also means Volcano in Tahitian if that is of any interest ? All that being so, researching the name can be quite difficult. However, I wonder if you are aware of this family; Étienne DE ST-PÈRE born in 1602 St-Jean-d'Angély, Mortagne and died 18th of May 1639 at Saintonge, Charente-Maritime. He married Madeleine COUTEAU St-Jean-d'Angély, Mortagne in 1626. Two daughters were from this union, Jeanne who would die in far off Canada as would her sister Catherine. Both married in Canada. Hope this assists. Kind Regards, Peter Leroy

Hello Helen, Two thoughts came to mind on reading your post. One was the memory of collecting small metal model cars as a child with the name LESNEY or Matchbox, obviously the name of the company. Secondly is that in department 39 (France) is an area with the name Port Lesney, hence if you have the name DE LESNY, then it is quite possible that the family is 'of' or 'from' Lesney. I will keep my eyes open Kind Regards, Peter Leroy

Hi Everyone I am not sure where the query about Paul Forestier started but I came across this name when I was researching my ancestor Charles du Blés. This extract comes from the History of the Walloon & Huguenot Church at Canterbury by Francis W Cross [in Huguenot Society Quarto series vol.15 fiche 02, p169-171]. There was a paragraph or two about Paul Forestier before this extract. "Du Blés, who was evidently possessed of a somewhat combative disposition, entered into dispute with his colleague Paul Fourestier shortly before the latter's death, and the quarrel was continued by the younger Fourestier and members of the congregation. Pastor Fourestier being aged and infirm resigned his office in or about April 1747, but continued his connection with the Church. He officiated at a baptism in January 1748, and his death at the age of 80, took place in the following December: he was buried in St. Peter's churchyard, where his wife had been laid to rest ten years earlier (February 21, 1738). An offer was made to his son to succeed him in the ministry, and his name has been erroneously included in some lists of the pastors. He declined the appointment2, but while still a "proposant" for the ministry preached in the crypt from October 1747 till February 1748. The controversy in which du Blés engaged with the younger Fourestier and some of the Consistory became of sufficient importance to require the arbitrament of a neighbouring Church." I hope that any descendant of Paul Forestier will forgive my "combative" ancestor. Bronwyn Stuckey Australia

Hello All, Does this mean that we can add the title F.A., following our names (familial analyst) ? I beleive that much has now been written on the topic and strongly support the views of Tony Fuller and others regarding the non link theory. That being said, perhaps we can put to rest this thread and send it off to the archives. It is my hope that some of you who are just beginning to fill in those genealogy pages take some note of potential hazards of making "claim". One more time it needs to be said, check your sources. Indeed Tony sums it up with the folowing :- > The bottom line is be happy with what you have in your > family line and don't invent anything because if you > do, eventually the HWE familial analysts will get > you!!!!!!!!!!!!! Now then, after running around examining this minor hiccup in the world of one Gaspard DE COLIGNY, I find that many other more learned folk have written of his adventures and so there is no real need for me to do so. Mention of scallywags and rogues in family trees reminds me of a few that we have in our tree. And a few of those were Huguenot, so don't go beleiving, fellow listers, that all Huguenots were in fear of authority or a greater spiritual force. A story about two might be of interest. Shoplifters they were, and the last view of this world was from Tower Hill. Then of course there were our Huguenot legal beagles and accountants. A couple of them would do well in todays corporate world of the United States. No sir, our tree might have the "nice" line of do-gooders, but I can assure you folks that many were good solid French farmers, sailors, soldiers and thieves. Hmm I don't recall any women of the night. I wonder if I shake the tree if some skeletons will descend ? As an aside. Anyone interested in Francois HOTMAN ? All good fun. Kind Regards, Peter Leroy

Hello everyone, Firstly a big thankyou to Tony for the photo copies they arrived in the post today. Secondly some information I came across today which may be of some interest help to others. Cosme Brevint was the first minister of sark and began the first register in 1570, his son Elie Brevint kept records for the following dates 1620-1628, 1635, 1644, 1649-1650,1660 and 1663 there are transcripts of this document at The Priaulx library Guernsey and Societe Jersiase. Karen PS other huguenots who were part of the colonisation of Sark were Jean Quesle and his wife Remy Du Puits _________________________________________________________________ Use MSN Messenger to send music and pics to your friends http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger

There was another Huguenot cemetery in Dublin in Peter Street and in c1966 the remains were disinterred (?) and then re interred in Mount Jerome cemetery in Dublin where a memorial wall records all the names. (The first is Bartelemy Arabin d. 1713) Shirley > And as for cemeteries, there were Huguenot specific cemeteries, most of which havedisappeared. There is one at Nab Hill in Wandsworth which has just been saved after acampaign involving Hug Soc members and local historians and, of course, the famous MerrionRow Cemetery on the corner of Merrion Row and St Stephen's Green in Dublin. > > Regards > > Tony Fuller > > > ==== HUGUENOTS-WALLOONS-EUROPE Mailing List ==== > When posting to the Huguenots-Walloons-Europe list: > Make your subject line specific and relevent. > eg. include topic or surname(s) and/or date and/or location. > > ============================== > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 > This message was sent using Wave Mail. www.wave.co.nz

Not too sure how many Suisse folk or descendents thereof are subscribed, however this URL might be of some interest if you happen to be from the Canton Vaud region. http://www.rootsweb.com/~chevaud/ballens/bindex.htm Kind Regards, Peter Leroy

Hello again, list -- Is anyone out there interested in the surname DENARO (possible Huguenots) with apparent origins in Italy and, from there, branches in England, Sicily and Malta? If so, hop over to the Board to view a thread of four messages on this subject, two of which contain details about the various DENARO lines. You can get to the initial query on the Board, and then read it, by clicking on: http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec/msg/an/Fq.2ADEAE/170. Then simply scroll down and click on the subject line of your choice in order to read any of the three other messages in the same thread. Andrea (as list concierge)

Listers -- Here's another post forwarded from the Board. I'm embarrassed to say that it was posted last June. My apologies for this tardiness. This forwarded post has also received four replies on the Board over the past few months. If you'd like to reply to the message below and/or view any of the replies to it on the Board, there are details at the very end of this message on how to do that. I will not be forwarding any of the existing replies from the Board to the list because it's just too cumbersome. You'll have to go to the Board to see them. Andrea (as list concierge) -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] (Ruth Jarvis) Date Posted on HWE Board: June 29, 2003 Message Board Post as follows: I have a bit of a family mystery. My father hailed from London and his name was James JAGOT JARVIS, the JAGOT bit being a middle name as opposed to a double barrel. My eldest sister (the first born) is Julie JAGOT JARVIS, but my other sister and myself do not bear this middle name. The story is that JAGOT is a name handed down to the first born, no matter what sex they are and it has been a tradition of this branch of the JARVIS family for goodness knows how long. In my research, it has been suggested that this is of huguenot origin and I would really like to find out. Julie has handed down the name to her son, but has chosen to make it a double barrel because it is obviously a name that needs to be passed on for some reason now forgotten and that is a way of making it more permanent. Has anyone any ideas, please? Where should I look to find out the JAGOT JARVIS link, has anyone ever heard of it, etc. Many thanks indeed! ============================================== To view and then reply to the original message on the Board, click on: http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec/msg/rw/Fq.2ADEAE/178 and then click on Post Reply. Any replies to the message which are already on the Board can be viewed by scrolling down below the message and then clicking on the subject line of any of the replies you want to see. END of Message Board Post

hello everyone can some kind person give me the web address for the archives regards David Anker

Hello All, A snippet to add to the story is as follows, Jacqueline DE MONTBEL, Countess of d'Entremont and of Nottage, heiress of the branch, was born in 1541; she first married in 1561, Claude de Batarnay, Count of Boushage, Baron of d'Anthon, who was killed in the battle of Saint-Denis in 1567, leaving no posterity. Source:- Translated from a copy of a letter found at the residence of Eugene à Hilaire d'Entremont. The letter was not signed but Father Clarence d'Entremont believes that it was written by his uncle Léander d'Entremont http://collections.ic.gc.ca/argyle/html/body_egenealogy4.htm Kind Regards, Peter Leroy

Hello again, Looking closer at Europäische Stammtafeln vol XIV table 61, I see that Jacqueline was imprisoned in 1573 and died in prison in 1599 widow of Claude de Bâtarnay Count du Bouchage. I don't know when she married Claude. But unless they let her out of prison and then put her back, it looks pretty unlikely that she was adopting anybody "after he, Gaspard, is long dead". Regards, Howard [email protected]

Ah! New style. I seem to remember the term. And yes the calendar dates now make sense to this reader. Howard has the answer to birth dates : > Europäische Stammtafeln (vol XIV, table 61): 17.II > 1518 New Style > (By New Style, I assume they mean the year begins > Jan 1; which will make the 2nd month Feb.) And see now all can be resolved listers if one asks. There a many learned folk subscribed as Howard has demonstrated here in answer to the date of Gaspard's birth. Now then to the next item of the second marriage. Once again Howard has provided us with reliable source and so I shall accept that indeed Gaspard DE COLIGNY had a second wife. I was not arguing that he did not, simply sought reliable source other than someone else's family collection of information. > No, it seems well documented. > Europäische Stammtafeln also shows that he married > secondly at La Rochelle 25.III 1571 Jacqueline de > Montbel, countess d'Entremont > (his first wife died at Orléans 3.III 1568) Thank you Howard for your information. And so now to the thrid part for ongoing discussion. The apparent adopted child. Firstly is there documentation that can be accepted as reliable that this adoption was legal and did actually occur ? Let us for now accept that all is above board on that front. Please deny if you have cause to do so. The question now would be limited to : Is, or was, the child a DE COLIGNY? I believe we have a couple of listers who offer that the answer is definitely no. Are there any subscribers who wish to plead the case for the Yes ? Be not afraid and go ahead, present your postulation on that question, while I propose a further question on this topic. Gaspard and his first wife Charlotte DE LAVAL were Huguenot and so it is reasonable to assume that the children of that union were also Huguenot? Was Jacqueline DE MONTBEL also Huguenot ? Was the adopted child brought up with Huguenot belief ? As an aside just who was the child, he/she has a name I presume ? And I most humbly apologise Howard in causing you to rush off to a library. I will only propose easy questions from now on. Well maybe I wont Kind Regards, Peter Leroy

Hi Peter and all, From: <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2003 2:22 PM > Gaspard DE COLIGNY, the son of Gaspard DE COLGINY > marries Charlotte DE LAVAL-MONTFORT and they have a > tribe of children. > snip > And now folks for the really really biggie. > > Gaspard DE COLIGNY is recorded by some as having a > second wife and no natural children with that union, or > is there ? (Add information if you have documentation > that indicates that there was a child of this union) Yes, there was. One. Europäische Stammtafeln agrees with Mr. van de Pas' web page. See vol XIV table 61. Gaspard and Jacqueline had a dau. Beatrix born 21.XII 1572 at Saint-Andre-de-Briord. Note that this is 4 months after Gaspard was murdered, so it is all legit. But she was born after his death. > And so Gaspard dies, this second wife reportedly > "Adopts" a child after he, Gaspard, is long dead. What is the alleged name of this alleged adopted child, please? Is it the above Beatrix or somebody else? When did it allegedly occur? Remember, Jackie died in 1599. > What relation to you is this adopted child as he is, > technically (ie by blood), not related to Gaspard DE > COLIGNY at all ? None, if adopted, it seems to me. How about a step-cousin-in-law, N times removed? :) But some people try to claim that kind of thing. They talk of "collateral" relatives. But these are not ancestors. Eg. My aunt had traced an alleged ascent to a Magna Charta Baron that went along ok till it jumped to an in-law that was not an ancestor. But first things first. Did this alleged adoption even occur? Or is it just some bogus invention like the non-existent illegitimate child of William the Silent invented to be the ancestor of Anneke Jans? Regards, Howard [email protected]

Hi Peter and all, From: <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2003 12:28 PM > Hello All, > > Thank you to Howard for his 'point' toward an > interesting website. I do note that once again a > difference this time in birth dates of the great hero > DE COLIGNY Here is what I've seen: Peter (source unnamed): 16th of February 1519. Encyclopaedia Britannica (1974): 16 Feb 1519 Leo van de Pas (web site prev. mentioned): 16 Feb 1516 Europäische Stammtafeln (vol XIV, table 61): 17.II 1518 New Style (By New Style, I assume they mean the year begins Jan 1; which will make the 2nd month Feb.) [Yes, you got me curious enough to go to the library. :) ] It is a puzzlement. From this site: http://www.genfair.com/dates.htm I see that France changed to Jan 1 as New Years Day in 1564. So, I wondered if some calendar interpretation problems could account for the difference between 1518 and 1519; but I can't come up with a scenario that would account for it. > Once again there is mention of a second wife. Is this a > case of "if enough people say something is right then > it is ?" No, it seems well documented. Europäische Stammtafeln also shows that he married secondly at La Rochelle 25.III 1571 Jacqueline de Montbel, countess d'Entremont (his first wife died at Orléans 3.III 1568) Regards, Howard [email protected]

Hello All, Now isn't this just what we all wonder at times ? When is a person a relative ? I shall attempt to shorten the situation for those of you who just came in to this discussion. Gaspard DE COLIGNY, the son of Gaspard DE COLGINY marries Charlotte DE LAVAL-MONTFORT and they have a tribe of children. These children would then be recorded as an anscestor if you happen to be related. But what is a relationship ? In most situations if your name is say DE COLGINY then your mother is very much a relative, well she is your mother. Now that is simple enough. And so we extend this line way back to Gaspard DE COLIGNY and so he is your umpteenth Grandfather. Again very simplistic genealogy. In some cases there is a second marriage and so what is the relationship between you and the second wife ? By blood, nil. By marrage, she is the wife of your Grandfather so many times removed. Now lets make this even more complicated. The second wife already has children. So what is the relationship between you and these children ? Some genealogy programs allow for the term "Step-Child" and so therefore they are step cousins or are they step something else to you ? And so listers we come to the topic of this subject. Gaspard DE COLIGNY dies 24th August, 1572. His wife passes away prior to him on 3rd of March, 1567. He "supposedly" marries a second time and so his natural children by Charlotte DE LAVAL now have a "Step-Mother", simply put, she is no relative to Gaspard descendents other than that, the second wife. And now folks for the really really biggie. Gaspard DE COLIGNY is recorded by some as having a second wife and no natural children with that union, or is there ? (Add information if you have documentation that indicates that there was a child of this union) And so Gaspard dies, this second wife reportedly "Adopts" a child after he, Gaspard, is long dead. What relation to you is this adopted child as he is, technically (ie by blood), not related to Gaspard DE COLIGNY at all ? Well how could he/she possibly be related to the DE COLIGNY family as the child does or at least did have a natural mother and father prior to being adopted by the second wife. So if the second wife is not related to you then surely the adopted child of the second wife is not even nearly related to you. Especially when the adopted child was adopted "after" the death of Gaspard DE COLIGNY. And so how can it be that a familly can claim the DE COLIGNY family as anscestors by way of the adopted child when there is no relationship between the adopted child and the DE COLIGNY line ? All clear as mud now ? I suppose one could place a note in the file that says that "I am related to the child who was adopted by the second wife of Gaspard DE COLIGNY after his death", which makes for some nice reading, but like many other historical points in all our genealogical research, that is all that it would be, a 'Remark' for future family members to delight in. Maybe I have a different understanding and some of you have another perspective on this topic, please go ahead and present your scenario for open discussion without any fear of ridicule or abuse from any listers. Discussion not damnation, please. Kind Regards, Peter Leroy

Hi Carol In an idle moment yesterday and whilst looking for something else, I looked at the Proceedings Vol II and found the references to Axholme. Email me outside the main room to discuss how we might get a photocopy of the articles to you. Regards Tony Fuller

Hi William Well organised it most certainly was, popular with the Anglican Church, well, not always. Yes, it did receive a good deal of support from the State (Crown, Government and Clergy) but at various times, it also was the subject of great hostility, even suppression (by Laud in the early/mid 17th century), complaints, victimisation and arguments about things ecclesiastical and practical. But, by and large, it was supported by Anglicanism. And as for cemeteries, there were Huguenot specific cemeteries, most of which have disappeared. There is one at Nab Hill in Wandsworth which has just been saved after a campaign involving Hug Soc members and local historians and, of course, the famous Merrion Row Cemetery on the corner of Merrion Row and St Stephen's Green in Dublin. Regards Tony Fuller

Hi William We've done this to death here in the past. Have a look in the HWE archive, there are many messages about the origin of the word. And please don't ask about the origin or Protestant, that really gets us all going, it's all in the archive. Regards Tony Fuller