Hello, During a recent discussion with an family member the topic of Huguenot weddings came about. And I wish to propose the same question here so that we may all consider what we think is the answer, if there is one. The year is 1555 and Jean wishes to wed and bed Isabeau whose family are very much Huguenot and so to please the bride Jean takes up this new thinking. Off go the lovers to find a Huguenot wedding official to become man and wife. And so the question. This is still very much Catholic France. Weddings are the sole area of the local Priest. ...If this couple are wedded by a Huguenot, are they technically married under the then laws of France ? Kind Regards, Peter Leroy

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Hi Guys For information about the Muggletonians, try to get a copy of The World of the Muggletonians (London 1983) by Christopher Hill, Barry Reay and William Lamont. I have a copy tucked away somewhere, gift from my other half whilst I was at Uni I seem to recall. And, anything by Christopher Hill who wrote extensively on the English Civil War period and non-conformism, a good starting point is The World Turned Upside Down. Regards Tony Fuller

Will - Most interested in your mention of the Muggletonian sect, about which I know very little. My dear friend Rev. Sydney Smith was somewhat disparaging about many of the Protestant sects, (using the word in a non-disparaging manner), lumping them all to-gether as 'Dissenters', although he fiercely upheld their rights to freedom of thought and expression, much in the same manner as he long fought for Roman Catholic Emancipation. William Wilberforce he described as "Little William of the Clapham Sect", although gave a good report of him on meeting him. He had a regard for the Quakers; he visited Newgate Prison with Elizabeth Fry. He was equally disparaging about that wing of the Established Anglican Church that came into some prominence at that time, known as the Tractarians, Puseyites and the Oxford Movement. (Dr. Pusey was the mentor of a relative mine, Priscilla Lydia Sellon who founded the first Anglican sisterhood, and a High Church Sellon had a stink bomb let off in his very Low Church parish in mid-Suffolk during his sermon). Harriet Martineau was amongst the wide circle of friends with whom he kept up a voluminous correspondence. I had not realised that she was a 'dissenter'. I would dearly like to hear more of the Muggletonians, and how they may have differed from the Unitarians. Yours Aye Andrew Sellon East Anglia I am just come from London, where I have been doing duty at St. Paul's, and preaching against the Puseyites - I. Because they lessen the aversion to the Catholic faith, and the admiration of Protestantism, which I think one of the greatest improvements the world ever made. II. They inculcate the preposterous surrender of the understanding of bishops. III. They make religion an affair of trifles, of postures, and of garments. Rev. Sydney Smith 1771-1854, Canon of St. Paul's. Letter to Miss Martineau, 11th Dec. 1842. From: "William Johnson" <[email protected]> > Hello listers, > My first huguenot ancestor was Amy Vincent born May 21st, 1790 in the > parish of St. Matthew Bethnal Green, London which seems a parish greatly > populated with huguenots along with St. Dunstans Stepney, St. Leonards > Shoreditch, St. Mary Whitechapel, and Christ Church Spitalfields. Amy had 5 > sisters and 1 brother, the first 2 were christened in the church of St. > Matthew Bethnal Green, but all the rest were registered in Dr. Williams > Library and not christened in a church to my knowledge. Their parents were > William Vincent who married Susanna Dedour Dec.17th, 1780 in St. Matthew, > Bethnal Green. William and Susanna became followers of the Muggletonian > christian sect, which had some beliefs similar to the Unitarian movement who > were led by famous literary figures such as William Godwin, Mary > Woolstonecraft, Joseph Johnson, Harriet Martineau (a huguenot?), Joseph > Priestley, Thomas Paine, who also influenced William Blake, the poet and > artist, whose wife happened to be Catherine Boucher, perhaps also a > huguenot. Do other researchers have examples of Huguenots following > reforming religious movements such as the Unitarians, did huguenots > generally follow paths of non conformism or go to the Church of England? > > Will

Hi Folks Will is of course right, the originals of the majority of the French Churches are at the PRO as follows (from Tracing Your Ancestors at the PRO): The registers of several foreign churches are in RG 4, listed separately except for those of the Scottish churches, which are included in the county lists; there are also a few in RG 8. Most are Huguenot (French and Walloon Protestant) registers, from the several churches of London, 1599-1840, and from Bristol I 687-1807, Canterbury 1590-1837, Norwich 1595-1752, Plymouth 1692-1807, Southampton 1567-1779 and Thorpe-le-Soken 1684-1726 (in RG 4); Huguenot registers from Dover, 1646-1731, are in RG 8/14. The Huguenot Society has published most of these registers. The other foreign registers are all from London; they are those of the French Chapel Royal 1700-1754, the Dutch Chapel Royal 1689-1754, the German Lutheran Chapel Royal 1712-1836, the German Lutheran churches 1694-1853, and the Swiss church, 1762-1839, all in RG 4. But, as they are available on microfiche, one set of which have been taken from the Hug Soc Proceedings, it is unlikely that you'll ever get your mits on the originals and unless you have a really good reason for doing so, there's not necessarily any reason (with current conservation policies) that you will. That is why places like the LMA in London and the OIOC at the British Library have copied all their BMD records onto micro-forms, so they don't have to give the public access to the originals which were becoming very tatty because of their continual usage. Regards Tony Fuller

Hello listers, My first huguenot ancestor was Amy Vincent born May 21st, 1790 in the parish of St. Matthew Bethnal Green, London which seems a parish greatly populated with huguenots along with St. Dunstans Stepney, St. Leonards Shoreditch, St. Mary Whitechapel, and Christ Church Spitalfields. Amy had 5 sisters and 1 brother, the first 2 were christened in the church of St. Matthew Bethnal Green, but all the rest were registered in Dr. Williams Library and not christened in a church to my knowledge. Their parents were William Vincent who married Susanna Dedour Dec.17th, 1780 in St. Matthew, Bethnal Green. William and Susanna became followers of the Muggletonian christian sect, which had some beliefs similar to the Unitarian movement who were led by famous literary figures such as William Godwin, Mary Woolstonecraft, Joseph Johnson, Harriet Martineau (a huguenot?), Joseph Priestley, Thomas Paine, who also influenced William Blake, the poet and artist, whose wife happened to be Catherine Boucher, perhaps also a huguenot. Do other researchers have examples of Huguenots following reforming religious movements such as the Unitarians, did huguenots generally follow paths of non conformism or go to the Church of England? Will _________________________________________________________________ Stay in touch with absent friends - get MSN Messenger http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger

Tony Fuller mentioned that he didn't think the original huguenot church registers were availiable to the public. I think they are held at the Public Record Office (PRO) at Kew in SW London I assume for consultation with anyone with a readers ticket, also microfilms/fiche of the registers are held both at Kew and the Family Records Centre in Islington, north London. Will _________________________________________________________________ Use MSN Messenger to send music and pics to your friends http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger

Hi Guys I've scanned the appropriate chapter and some maps from the same book. If anybody wants a copy, please email me privately. Regards Tony Fuller

Hello Listers and Listerettes, Reading is fun. And reading the HWE archives http://www.island.net/~andreav/archives.htm can be even more so, especially when I read a story that I wrote a year ago almost to the day. At that time I waffled about one D'AUGIGNE and how he was a nice man. What has this to do with DE BERQUIN ? Well in reading minor work regarding middle age history in France, I fell asleep. On waking I remembered that in a terrible vision I mentioned right in this very list that words about DE LOIGNY were coming forthwith. Ok, ok I am getting to it. err where was I ? Ah yes, DE COLIGNY and how we all know about him. But did you know who his tutor was ? Well some of you do and so you can return to researching you immediate family history while I tell the short tale of the tutor of Gaspard DE COLIGNY, one Louis DE BERQUIN. Oh yes, the vision and how we got to this part. Well in reading up on DE BERQUIN, I discovered that D'AUBIGNE wrote about him in his very well written book "History of the Reformation in Europe in the Time of Calvin" And so who was this martyr for the Huguenot cause ? "The wretched tumbrel upon which he rode, the frowning faces of his persecutors, the dreadful death to which he was going—these he heeded not; He who liveth and was dead, and is alive for evermore, and hath the keys of death and of hell, was beside him. Berquin’s countenance was radiant with the light and peace of heaven. He had attired himself in goodly raiment, wearing ‘a cloak of velvet, a doublet of satin and damask, and golden hose.’ D’Aubigne, History of the Reformation in Europe in the Time of Calvin, book 2, chap. 16.. ok so this is at the end of the life of Louis DE BERQUIN, but at times we must begin at the end so that we are aware of how things end and you become a martyr. Yes, listers, burned him good did those Romanists. And encouraged the guards to make so much noise with their shields that his cries to the Grand Architect could not be heard. It can be said that the 16th of April 1529, was not a good day for Louis DE BERQUIN as it was to be the last day of his life. Of some minor interest is that two other noted historical figures were in Paris at the time of Louis' departure. Calvin and his almost complete opposite in Don Inigo Lopez de Recalde. Take some time and read about him, began the Jesuits you know. Back at the beginning of Louis' life it was about 1485 and all was for the best in the best of all possible worlds for him. He was from a fine family of middle nobility and recieved an outstanding education, University of Paris no less. It was during his educational years that he first heard of what he termed the writings of the heretic Luther. His family tried to prevent him doing further reading and for awhile were successful. Well it seems that Louis was certain that Luther was indeed a heretic until he began to read the bible for himself. Well talk about a turn around. The things that he heard about Luther and his thoughts became his own and so from then on his doubts about the salaried monks etc. and the oddities found in the Romanist bible caused him concern. So much so that he went off to Francis, who happened to be King at the time. Well as it turned out Louis couldn't convince Frank that there was much wrong about these monks and their teachings. In order to attempt to set Frank straight, Louis drew a 12 item list of things that were well, just not right, and sought to get some answers from these very same monks. Damned if you do and damned if you don't, was the fine pickle that the monks found themselves in as if they agreed with this smarty arty DE BERQUIN then they too would be 'heretics' but if they didn't then how would they answer his enquiries ? This was the first of three times that Louis would be banged up in the local cellblocks. He really did cause the Romanists a bad headache and with others running around like Zwingli, Bezia and Calvin, the church told the King that DE BERQUIN goose was cooked. And so he was. There is much more to this Huguenot martyr, some wil suggest that he was the first and I am sure that a hift at your local library will reveal his life in full. Kind Regards, Peter Leroy

From: "lynda hall" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Subject: re drainage of the fens. Date: 17 November 2003 11:34 From: "lynda hall" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Subject: Re,Drainage of the Fens. Date: 17 November 2003 11:27 hi. I am very interested in the drainage of the fens, as I am a yellow belly, (born in the lincs fens.) as where my ancestors for at least 250 years, The first recorded drainage was by the Romans who built a sea wall, Which was washed away by a great flood. Carrs dyke which runs through the village of Peakirk Nr Peterborough. is said to be Roman. The next people to impact the landscape where the salt workers , who made salt pans on the seas edge and made embankments to keep the sea out , this was a good money making idea and the church and monastery where at the forefront. See the doomsday book . The landowners continued to make small inroads on the landscape and in about 1250 the hamlet of Cowbit was built on a bank. later the village of Moulton Chapel was built on a drove This is where my father was born a little later.!!! The villages of Moulton ,Whaplode Gedney, Fleet and other villages made more bank and Dykes and increased the land holding as parishes and not as in other places with group a of rich men. the drainage is still going on today. My Uncle who started the family tree was sure our family where Huguentots. but I still need proof. Lynda Hall nee CULY. ---- Original Message -----

Hallo everyone, I have recently purchased a couple of very interesting little booklets: Title: The River Makers Author: Trevor Bevis ISBN: 0 901680 66 4 Publisher: Trevor Bevis BA, 28 St. Peters Road, March, Cambs. PE15 9NA Tel: 01354 657286 Price: £3.95 Description:Linked Huguenot and Walloon colonies anciently at Sandtoft (North Lincolnshire) and Thorney (North Cambridgeshire) and secondary settlements at Parsons Drove and Guyhirn. With account of Dutch and Scottish prisoners and their forced labour in the reclamation of the Cambridgeshire Fens. Title: Water, Water Everywhere Author: Trevor Bevis ISBN: 0 901680 46 1 Publisher: Trevor Bevis BA, 28 St. Peters Road, March, Cambs. PE15 9NA Tel: 01354 657286 Price: £3.90 Both booklets are about 40-50 pages. The first one contains extracts of Dutch and Walloon names taken from the 'lost' Sandtoft Baptismal Register. The second one contains some interesting maps relating to Vermuydens scheme in about 1642. Both booklets are excellent. Suzie Morley in Suffolk, England Looking for: ALLISON, BRADLEY, MILLER (in London) JEE/GEE, HOLLAND, KIRKMAN, MORLEY, RUSHTON, SPICE (in Lincolnshire) TABOURDEUX, TOUCHARD, URAND (Anywhere) > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] > Sent: 17 November 2003 01:36 > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [HWE] Drainage of the Fens > > > Hello All, > > A very informative short story of the beginnings of the > work in the Fens and I for one wish to thank Lynda for > all the information. Like many of us, I was aware of > some of the details but now feel more comfortable with > a more complete story. > > Imagine being the very first Huguenots to arrive in the > area ? Are there records which show just who they may > have been ? > > Kind Regards, > Peter Leroy > > > ==== HUGUENOTS-WALLOONS-EUROPE Mailing List ==== > Website for the Huguenots-Walloons-Europe list at: http://www.island.net/~andreav/index.html Lots of information, links to other sites, surnames list. ============================== To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237

From: "lynda hall" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Subject: Re Fen drainage Cambs. Date: 17 November 2003 00:34 The Romans had a stab at Fen Drainage in Cambridgeshire this lasted longer as the sea was to far away to wash it away. Cambridgeshire problems where different, they had lots of rivers from high ground flowing out to the sea.Which caused awful flooding and lost of crops. The most noted early drain was Morton's Leam which is 14 miles long from Peterborough to Guyhirn and built in the 13th century by a Rev or Bishop Morton. 1629 Cornelus Vermuyden and Charles First with the a Duke of Bedford. start to drain the fens. Oliver Cromwell wasec against the idea. When Oliver Cromwell is Lord Protector he changes his mind and is for the draining of the fens . The Fen men do not like a turncoat and there was trouble. With the return of Charles the 2nd. He is need of money and takes up the draining again ,with Cornelus Vermuyden and a Duke of Bedford and some rich men. The King had a parcel of land to build a new place on. But it did not get built. The land was drained over the next three centuries. and many riots and disputes continued for many years. see website . Thisiswisbeach.co.uk/triw/index. Right here is the Huguenots bit. The Duke of Bedford pal of Charles the 2nd. Has an estate in the Fens, Guess where ? Thorney which is a bit untidy and needs work doing, so he asked the Huguenot's to come to stay, some arrive it is said from Sandtoft and Norwich some from other areas Southampton (these where perhaps Walloons).The old Abbey at Thorney was made watertight and a French Pastor appointed. Facts. The Legend , says that some of the people who worship at the abbey thought it too grand and not grim enough. So they moved to Guyhirn .which must have been grim enough for they stayed. A Dissenter started a group which opened as a church in 1698 This man went on to write 96 hymens and letters and sermons some of which where published after his death in 1725. He was a pain in the neck to the bishop of Ely and as he was not a land owner he was sent to work on ship . It is said that he was put on board ship at Wisbeach or Kings Lynn , and that he sung hymns all day and some of the night and the sailors where so fed up that they put him ashore at Great Yarmouth. He then walked back home preaching as he went. On his return his flock raised money to buy him a plot of land so this could not happen again. If this man started a church which lasted for about 100 years, why is there so little written about him. It is possible that he is a relation of mine , David CULY and his followers the CULYMITES. He may have Huguenots or Walloon Blood. Time will tell. There are many good sites on draining the fens. and lots more people like Sir Philibert Vernatti, to name one . Lynda Hall nee CULY.

Evening Guys As this seems to be a hot topic at the moment, something that may be of interest, which I'm willing to scan and share. I have a book, which I think I posted details of ages ago, The Making of the English Landscape series, The Cambridgeshire Landscape by Christopher Taylor. The book obviously concentrates on the southern fens but if anybody wants a copy of the chapter on Drainage of the Fens, I'll scan it and send it to them as an email attachment. I don't think that it's anything groundbreaking or new but it does have some interesting maps of fen drainage, especially in the Swaffam areas. Regards Tony Fuller

Hello All, A very informative short story of the beginnings of the work in the Fens and I for one wish to thank Lynda for all the information. Like many of us, I was aware of some of the details but now feel more comfortable with a more complete story. Imagine being the very first Huguenots to arrive in the area ? Are there records which show just who they may have been ? Kind Regards, Peter Leroy

Hello All, Now this is why, boys and girls, Andrea is our most wonderful and skilled of all concierge aka list administrors. Before diving headlong into asking a specific question, delv into the achives of the HWE mailing list, followed very soon by the resources of the Hugienot Society of Great Britain and Ireland. If still unsure, then here is the mine of information to all manner of things Huguenot / Wallon in Europe. It is a shame in some ways that the young Andrea is not some 30 or 40 years older. Had she been, then I would have not wasted so many decades searching for information. I would have subscribed to the HWE way back then. Hmm had Andrea become concierge when I started she would have been similar to many records found on the LDS.. ie. Andrea would have be born before her date of birth. Who me hint at the inaccuracies of the LDS records in some case ? Kind Regards, Peter Leroy

Yes, sireee, a very interesting topic is the Fens and Huguenot workers. First up, just who had the original idea to go digging around the place ? Kind Regards, Peter Leroy

Hello, all -- Continuing on the subject of Sandtoft, we've got some info on our website in the Beyond the Basics section. Look under the heading Huguenot Links & Sites for England at: http://www.island.net/~andreav/hugseng.htm . Once you're on that page, scroll down to see the third item listed there, ie. a link leading to a "description of the Huguenot settlement at Sandtoft, Lincolnshire. Includes transcription from surviving chapel register. Also mentions Thorney and Whittlesey, two other Huguenot settlements (both in Cambridgeshire)". This website page re: Sandtoft is more of the work of Alan Stanier who Peter mentioned a couple of days ago in connection with the State Papers (1656). Andrea

Hello Will, William Johnson wrote concerning the list of signatures relating to the Sandtoft documents. > can you tell us what the purpose of the document > and its signing was? If you head off to the URL contained on that post all will be revealed. It and another document were a partition to the crown or Cromwell. Makes for some interestin reading. And I, for one, find it less than suprising that a name would be of interest to many. This area of England was a hot item among Huguenots and the locals during the period concerned and so became one of the places of choice for many immigrants from France. Kind Regards, Peter Leroy

Peter- Thankyou for the list of signatures relating to Sandtoft, can you tell us what the purpose of the document and its signing was? I noticed a Jean + James (Jaques) Pinchon mentioned, I have men of both these names in my tree, but my family were down in Canterbury. I have a Jaques Pinchon chr. Feb.6th, 1592, son of Antoine Pinchon and Jane Poillou, a Jaques son of Jean chr. Oct.8th, 1592, and a Jaques Pincon chr. July 21st, 1605 in Canterbury, son of Jaques, a Jaques chr. May 10th, 1635 son Samuel Pinchon and Susanne Heurtaux / Hertault etc who also had a Jean chr. Mar.25th, 1632. I'm afraid I don't have any more information about the family because I'm not sure where else to look (I've looked at the indexed registers in book form so far). Will _________________________________________________________________ On the move? Get Hotmail on your mobile phone http://www.msn.co.uk/msnmobile