Hi Guys and Peter Never fear Peter, the Huguenot marriages were legitimate because until, the Revocation, the Calvinist faith, which as we all know was what Huguenots were really all about, was recognised under the Edict of Nantes. That is why the Huguenots (Calvinists) were given their own rights of worship although outside city walls in Catholic areas like Paris, were given their own towns to run and even their own fortresses like La Rochelle or Nimes. The role of the Pastor was recognised and the Calvinist Church was part of the fabric of the state. If not, would so many high ranking Calvinists have been close to the royal household? It was not until the Revocation that the religion and its practices were forbidden although some of the Churches/Pastors/members of the various Consistory were still around, working underground, but with no legal authority as they were the people responsible for issuing the temoignages to the refugees. Hope this helps Tony Fuller

Hello to, well you know who you are, Hmm the youngster of the Fuller clan, Tony has some interesting observations. But!! > legitimate because until, the Revocation.... And what if the marriage was after Nantes ? > faith, which as we all know was what Huguenots were > really all about.... Oh sure ! Dante and after him the rise of the "middle class" = merchants = money = more merchants wanting more land = more money = power / authority oh ok then and some wanted to have some religious freedoms. I should prepare a paper on what I really believe to have been the cause and effect of the Reformation and by golly, relgion may just get at least a par. > That is why the Huguenots (Calvinists) were > given their own rights of worship although outside city > walls in Catholic areas like Paris, were given their > own towns to run and .... Yes siree, shut up, go away and out of sight and out of mind. As long as it wasn't on any of the DE GUISE estates or for that matter the DE PONTHIEU... grrrr > The role of the Pastor was > recognised and the Calvinist Church was part of the > fabric of the state. If not, would so many high > ranking Calvinists have been close to the royal > household? Some of the not so high ranking were paid handsomely by either the Romanists or the Calvinists for "protection".. ah a family that continued its origins.. well no no we don't do that kind of things these days of course. My goodness what would people think ? OR Wishing to live a long and varied life of wealth and happiness perhaps ?? > It was not until the Revocation that the religion > and its practices were forbidden...... See Above.. although now I am willing to promote the idea that early (prior to) Calvinist marriages were legal. (now to try and explore any other reason for that batard Leroy child being omitted from a will.) > Hope this helps Well of course it helps, sheesh, everytime that Tony fellow puts fingers to keyboard one of us is assisted and we thank you for that. Kind Regards, Peter Leroy

selected quotes from web: http://www.canterburytrust.co.uk/schools/keysites/staug.htm The abbey of Saints Peter and Paul, which is situated outside the eastern walls of the City of Canterbury, is the oldest Anglo-Saxon abbey in England. It was founded by St Augustine and King Aethelbert in about 598 and from its earliest years was intended as a burial place for the archbishops of Canterbury and the kings of Kent. As it housed the monks sent from Roman for the conversion of the English, it became a great centre of learning. The abbey was the fourteenth richest in England according to a valuation of 1535 with a gross income of £1,733. At the Dissolution in 1538 this income and the great complex shown on the plan overleaf were ripe for exploitation by Henry VIII. As it happened, the king decided to keep the abbot's lodging as a new royal palace in Canterbury. He later ordered that a new adjoining range of buildings be constructed on the south side of the Inner Great Court where the east and west ranges had been adapted for his use. This was for his new queen, Anne of Cleves, who was expected in England shortly. Three hundred or so workmen consequently worked day and night from 5th October to 21st December 1539 (thirty one dozen extra candles were ordered and charcoal in earthenware braziers was used to dry out the plaster in a hurry). Al was just ready for the Lady Anne to stay there one night on 29th December before moving on to meet the king at Rochester. After this the palace was rarely used by Henry VIII and his successors (Elizabeth I briefly in 1573, Charles I in 1625 and Charles II in 1660). It was granted to Cardinal Pole (1556-8) and later part of the palace was leased as a nobleman's house, to Lord Cobham for thirty years from 1564, and to Edward Lord Wotton from 1612. He employed John Tradescant the elder to lay out the gardens east of the palace, as shown on the fine plan of Canterbury of c. 1640. The palace remained intact, though becoming increasingly ruinous, until the end of the seventeenth century and it was perhaps the great storm of 1703 which finally destroyed the buildings, since it caused the fall of the northern half of 'Aethelbert's Tower' _________________________________________________________________ It's fast, it's easy and it's free. Get MSN Messenger today! http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger

Hello Suz, > Marie Louise ROY was born in 1850 > Fanny ROY was born in 1857 > > Sarah CARPENTER was born in 1849 - Binsted, Hampshire Hmm the PRO of England could be a potential source for further enquiry ? And of course the English census. The name ROY in England was not necessarily derived from French orgins, Scotland is also a source. However in this situation it would be safe to assume that the name ROY is of French origin due to the prenoms of Marie Louise and Francis (Francoise) Another suggested potential source may be the Huguenot Society in London, or if you could locate local church records dating back to Huguenot times in Hampshire ? Doesn't help all that much but perhaps given you some more ideas. Kind Regards, Peter Leroy

Hello Folks, A subscriber wrote to me on this topic 'off-list' and so I will not reveal all. However this part has me wondering more about the legality of marriage etc. during the Huguenot times. "Could they have been married secretly and have only family members record the marriage in family bibles" Many accept today that marriage is one of those double requirements. Married in both Church and State. Some believe that there is no requirement to marry with the belssings of the Church and yet the State insists that folks be "legally" married. In casting our collective minds back to the 16th and 17th century the question in my mind is.. Was there a legal requirement by the State to sign documents of marriage according to the laws of the land? If there were no such requirements at law then it is presumed that marriage was by the Church and only the Church ? As there was a time in France, and England for that matter, when there were no other religions tolerated by Church or State, then reason would suggest that if a couple, who claimed to be Protestant / Huguenot wished to become legally married, they would need to remain Romanist. If, on the other hand, they chose to "marry" according to the rights of the Huguenot faith, it would mean that under the then French law, they would not have been legally married and so the children of that union would carry that nasty "tag' commonly asociated with being born of an illegal union. Can one really tell that many of my ancestors were avocat ? In order to allow the mind to consider this puzzle, it may be necessary to remember your old high school history concerning Henry VIII of England and his wishing to marry for the second time. And so boys and girls, perhaps you can see where my current family agument is coming from ? Yes, the Huguenot members of our family "married" in varius Huguenot churches. The question is... were they legally married? And does the fact that these "marriages" were recorded in family bibles, which were Protestant, make them legal according to the laws of France at that time ? "At that time" being the operative phrase. Nit picking, perhaps ? If we are to record the marriages for the future generations who may take up this most wonderful of hobbies, then surely we must record our information accurately, or is there a need to modify current software so that an "illegal marriage" can be recorded ? This family discussion arose from trying to come to terms with why one particular family did not inherit some of the estates held at the time. Unfortunately due to some irate fisherman back in the 1990's, the immediate answer to why this family did not inherit has been lost. The records were stored in the law courts at Rennes which suffered a fire and so records were lost. NB. If you have ancestors from Bretagne, this is still a good potential source as not all was lost An uncle insists that the family did not inherit as they were not "legally married" and so the next generation of that union were not entitled as "legal heirs" Your input is of interest and it may be of even more interest to other subscribers and so responses should be via this HWE list for all to share in discussion. Kind Regards, Peter Leroy

Hi Guys An afterthought about this one - as she was Catholic and was surrounded by priests and at least one Catholic Bishop in her entourage when she came to England for her marriage AND the fact that she refused to be part of the Coronation because of her faith, I wonder if this may have been a Catholic Church as the proxy marriage had been in a Catholic Cathedral. I'll look up some other sources and get back on this later today. Regards Tony Fuller

Hi Andrea I have no idea where the Church is or was BUT as the information is from what is usually an unimpeachable source (Alison Weir's Britain's Royal Families) and because of who these two were (can't see them not having a bit of pomp and circumstance) my guess is that it is likely to be Canterbury Cathedral or one of the Chapels there which may not have parish status. Regards Tony

Hi again. Marie Louise ROY was born in 1850 Fanny ROY was born in 1857 Sarah Carpenter was born in 1849 - Binsted, Hampshire As far as I know they only went as far as Hampshire, England. We had HOTHER family who later immigrated to Oshawa, Ontario in 1907. Thanks for any help. Suz

Hi Will I currently have 518 Delamains and collateral lines/families related by marriage and the like on my database. I'm currently in touch with another Delamain who has 18th/19thC family portraits, day books, family papers, diaries and that sort of thing which he's willing to let me have access to or to borrow to transcribe them. I've 4 Thomas Delamains, two too early, one born around the right time and one loose end. Will, save boring people rigid on this, email me privately and we can swap material. Regards Tony Fuller

Hi Guys and Will Nicholas Delamain was in England with Henrietta Maria in 1625, Charles I having married her by proxy 1st May 1625 at Notre Dame, Paris and in person at St Augustine's Church, Canterbury, 13 June 1625. Although I have some details of Nicholas, who was her Chef de Suite, a Huguenot in a vast retinue of Catholics, I'm waiting for more detail on him before I can say whether he was father or brother of Richard. I know that after he was finished in the Royal Household, he went to live in Ireland where he became Farmer General for Taxes. I also have the IGI material, be careful tho Will, there are some inaccuracies in it. Regards Tony Fuller

Hello, all -- Re: Tony's mention earlier today of a marriage in 1625 "at St Augustine's Church, Canterbury". Tony, this St. Augustine's church is a new one to me. Know anything else about it? I realize that there were 17 or so (C. of E.) parishes/churches in Canterbury -- All Saints, Christchurch (Cathedral), Holy Cross, St. Alphege, St. Andrew, St. Dunstan, St. George, St. Gregory, St. Margaret, St. Martin, St. Mary Bredin, St. Mary Bredman, St. Mary Northgate, St. Mildred, St. Paul, St. Peter & St. Stephen (Hackington). Not all of them still exist today. But I haven't heard of this St. Augustine's before so I'd be very interested to learn more about it. A quick glance through David Wright's booklet, "East Kent Parishes: A Guide for Genealogists, Local Historians and Others", didn't turn up mention of St. Augustine's in the section on Canterbury parishes/ churches/records or in the section on Canterbury non-conformist churches. But maybe I missed it in there somewhere. Andrea

Hi Tony, I have some information on the Delamaines, such as baptism dates for Alexander Delamaine and his siblings(from IGI), and the will of Alexander and his widow Ann, also the marriage details for Alexander. Edward Delamain, baptist preacher of Marlborough brother of Alexander Delamaine is mentioned in a book of letters that I have, I will make a copy of this and send it if you don't already have a copy. I also am personally related to a James Delamain who was mentioned as a cousin in the will of my greatx uncle Peter Toovey of Wormsley, Lewknor, Oxfordshire, the will was dated March 20th, 1739/40, do you know who this James might be? Will _________________________________________________________________ It's fast, it's easy and it's free. Get MSN Messenger today! http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger

Tony, what an amazing coincidence that you are researching the Delamain family. Alexander Delamaine was baptised Oct.3rd, 1631 in St. Andrews, Holborn, London son of Richard Delamaine, the mathematics tutor to Charles I and his wife Sarah. Alexander as far as I know had 10 siblings, among whom were Richard, a radical preacher, Edward, a baptist preacher, and Nicholas baptised 1634/5- is this Nicholas the same Nicholas which you mentioned or a nephew? Will _________________________________________________________________ It's fast, it's easy and it's free. Get MSN Messenger today! http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger

Our HWE list guideline # 2 says -- SURNAMES should be written in capital letters, both in the subject line and in the actual messages. Reason: This makes the names more noticeable and lets others know quickly if any names in your message are of interest to them. Thanks to everyone who already does capitalize as requested. The rest of the HWE guidelines are on our website at: http://www.island.net/~andreav/hweguide.htm. In English, French, Dutch and German. Andrea (as list concierge)

Hi Guys I think Dorothy meant to send the message to me personally and instead sent it to the wider room. I have expressed my views to her directly. I think points have been made now, perhaps we can drop this. Regards Tony Fuller

Hi Guys Whoops Nicholas was the guy who came over with Henrietta Maria. Silly me Tony

Hi Guys I'm currently writing the family history of the Huguenot Delamain family for Jack Delamain and his wife Kinta, who are on the other Rootsweb Huguenot group and for whom I've recently finished a detailed linear family history, especially as there are strong Ireland/London/India connections. I also gave a paper on the Delamains at the recent Dublin Seminar. Jack and Kinta have a direct line back to the Delamains who came over with the entourage of Henrietta Maria of France, when she came over to marry Charles I. The Richard Delamain that William mentioned is still a loose end but all the current evidence is that he was Nicholas Delamain's brother. There are several lines of Delamains still around, all contributing to the family history which is likely to be published towards the end of next year. Regards Tony Fuller

Hi List, I am new to the list and wondering if someone could help me. I am researching the following names: Marie Louise ROY married Angelo CARPENTER Fanny ROY married John FLOWER Sarah CARPENTER married James HOTHER The two ROY sisters are supposedly from Montbeliard, France. Noticing that some of the Huguenots come from this area I thought someone on the list may be able to help. According to an old tree CARPENTER could also be CARPENTIER and somehow all the girls are related which I believe is outside of the fact that Angelo was Sarah's sister. Marie's Dad was Charles Frederick ROY a watchmaker Sarah's Dad was Charles CARPENTER an ag. lab. Any help would be really appreciated. Thanks. Suz

Well now, there is a familiar name. I am assuming that the ROY family or their descendents went of to far off Canada or perhaps only went as far as England ? If Suz could offer some time period it may make offering any suggestions or potential exchange of information a little easier. Kind Regards, Peter Leroy

Hello listers, the Muggletonians seem to stimulate interest by their name alone! My grandfather was the last known Muggletonian and keeper of the Muggletonian archive which he rescued from Bishopsgate in the blitz in 1940. The archive consisting of proceedings of the sect dating back to 17th century, books and letters was thought to have been lost by historians, and was only rediscovered by them when my father wrote to the Times Literary Supplement in response to an article which mentioned the lost archive in the early 1970s. The sect began in 1652 when John Reeve, a tailor of London had a vision proclaiming him God's last prophet. He together with his cousin Lodowick Muggleton, also a tailor of London then went and preached their beliefs around London and further afield. The book that Tony mentioned "The World of Muggletonians" gives a thorough study of the sect, also a website that gives a good explanation of the sect and other radical dissenters may be found here: http://www.exlibris.org/nonconform/engdis/muggleton.html I would also recommend "The Acts of the Witnesses" ed.T.L.Underwood OUP 1999, ISBN 0-19-512074-4 the autobiography of Lodowick Muggleton and other writings which gives a often amusing insight into the mind of Lodowick and some explanation of his beliefs. This and other second hand books may be found cheaply at the http://www.abebooks.com , a very useful website that gathers together 1000s of second hand booksellers catalogues and allows you to purchase online. Alexander Delamain who Tony mentioned was a follower of Muggleton and a citizen and salter of London, he was probably son of Richard Delamain, mathematics tutor to Charles I: "Originally he(Rich. Delamain) was a joiner. After studying in Gresham College, he supported himself by teaching practical mathematics in London. Later he became mathematical tutor to King Charles I, and (according to his widow) Quartermaster-general. We know from governmental records that he was employed by the Master of Ordnance in measuring forts and castles." DNB I don't know whether Richard was a huguenot or whether the family had been in England previous to the huguenot migrations, does anyone have any info on whether the Delamains were huguenots? Will _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail messages direct to your mobile phone http://www.msn.co.uk/msnmobile