I've only known the term "cordonnier" to mean shoemaker, and my husband reminds us that in the old days (when shoes were made by hand), they were highly skilled artisans and therefore in high regard and generally pretty up there in social status. Members of aristocracy (including the royal household) would have had their favorites. Melissa Roy --- Marcia Bignall <mbignall@mac.com> wrote: > Hi Tony & all, > > "Ouvrier des moniaes du roi" seems to translate as > "money handler for > the king" but can someone give me a better > translation and a > description of what that job entailed? > > Cordonnier was a shoemaker but I'm finding that some > men who called > themselves "cordonnier" weren't common cobblers, > rather they seem to > have been of an artisan or merchant class, i.e., > bourgeois. Does > this make sense? > > I remember reading somewhere that beginning in > 1662(?) French > Protestants were denied the right to hold government > positions. Can > someone point me to something concrete regarding > that law? > > Thanks all, > Marcia > > > > ==== HUGUENOTS-WALLOONS-EUROPE Mailing List ==== > Be a participating subscriber! Post your surname > interests often. > Once a month is about right, or more often if you > have new details. > Address your post to > Huguenots-Walloons-Europe-L@rootsweb.com > > ============================== > Census images 1901, 1891, 1881 and 1871, plus so > much more. > Ancestry.com's United Kingdom & Ireland Collection. > Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13968/rd.ashx > > ___________________________________________________________ Win a BlackBerry device from O2 with Yahoo!. Enter now. http://www.yahoo.co.uk/blackberry

Marcia "Ouvrier des monaies du roi" means treasurer (or someone who works at the royal mint, making actual coins). "Patron" is "boss". "Majeure" is "supervisor". "Pescheur". I've seen this in 16th and 17th century text as another word for "sinner". Now, what "the supervisor, boss sinner" has to do with the treasury is probably best left up to another interpretation!! Melissa Roy --- Marcia Bignall <mbignall@mac.com> wrote: > A couple more questions regarding French > terminology; > > One of the 17th century men who originally described > himself as > "ouvrier des monaies du roi" is later termed "le > majeur, patron > pescheur" and sometimes simply "patron." He wasn't > military and as > far as we can tell there wasn't another man with the > same name in the > area, so, can the term "le majeur" indicate has > social class? > > As for "patron pescheur" it seems to translate as > "patron to > fishermen" but I'm not clear on what that would > entail. Can someone > help with this terminology? > > Thanks again, > Marcia > > > ==== HUGUENOTS-WALLOONS-EUROPE Mailing List ==== > Need to unsubscribe but not sure how to do it? > Full instructions are on the list website at: > http://www.island.net/~andreav/unsub.htm. > > ============================== > Jumpstart your genealogy with OneWorldTree. Search > not only for > ancestors, but entire generations. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13972/rd.ashx > > ___________________________________________________________ To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com

Can anyone give me a hint why so many of the Huguenots settling in Palatinate (Mannheim etc) around 1651 left the Thierache at that time? The first birth registered in the French church of Mannheim was David DESMAREST, son of David DESMAREST and his wife Marie SOHIER born 20. Dec. 1651. Did they leave because they could settle savely in Mannheim or did they found a church in Mannheim because so many had to leave? (2 birth in 1652 and 13 in 1653, 30 in 1654) Ina www.hugenotten-uckermark.de

Can anyone give me a hint why so many of the Huguenots settling in Palatinate (Mannheim etc) around 1651 left the Thierache at that time? The first birth registered in the French church of Mannheim was David DESMAREST, son of David DESMAREST and his wife Marie SOHIER born 20. Dec. 1651. Did they leave because they could settle savely in Mannheim or did they found a church in Mannheim because so many had to leave? (2 birth in 1652 and 13 in 1653, 30 in 1654) Ina www.hugenotten-uckermark.de

----- Original Message ----- From: <Inajono@aol.com> To: <HUGUENOTS-WALLOONS-EUROPE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, February 17, 2006 4:22 PM Subject: [HWE] Why leaving Picardie and Thierache shortly after 1650 > Can anyone give me a hint why so many of the Huguenots settling in > Palatinate (Mannheim etc) around 1651 left the Thierache at that time? > The first birth registered in the French church of Mannheim was David > DESMAREST, son of David DESMAREST and his wife Marie SOHIER born 20. Dec. > 1651. > Did they leave because they could settle savely in Mannheim or did they > found a church in Mannheim because so many had to leave? (2 birth in 1652 > and 13 in 1653, 30 in 1654) > > Ina > www.hugenotten-uckermark.de > > > ==== HUGUENOTS-WALLOONS-EUROPE Mailing List ==== > Be a participating subscriber! Post your surname interests often. > Once a month is about right, or more often if you have new details. > Address your post to Huguenots-Walloons-Europe-L@rootsweb.com > > ============================== > Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the > last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx

Ah yes, titles and other such wonderful things we seize upon today. My rabble of ancestors had some which included Maitre des Requetes de l'Hotel du Roi and Maitre d'Hoptel de Jean de France Duc de Berry, Conseiller du Roi, Maitre des Requetes du Roi and a whole boar load of other nifty titles. Oh yes, and thief, highwayman, smuggler, prostitute, farmer etc. How did they get them one might be asking ? Bought most of them or simply poked a local duc in the ribs with a sword or even made horrible threats such as "title or we blow up your chateau". The there was the really neat way to gain a title. Humungous donation to the local church. Still works today in some places. So, to me it very much depends when the document you are reading was actually written. If for instance it was written during the lifetime of the said ancestor then much of the above ways of gaining titles can be used. If, as is often the case, these little extra bits were added after the death, then one may find that, well, you know.. makes really neat story for the grandkids to say that ancestor was a captain of the guard or ship or boss cocky of the farm. All the time ancestor had a falling out with the local authorities, maybe he pinched money while doing the books and so left in a hurry, bought a fishing boat etc. So folks come along later and, well you know, mess with the oral family history so much that when it is written down for posterity, it now turns out that the fishing boat used to sustain ancestor and his family has now become a big fishing boat and he is now captain. Just a reminder to many of us that before we go recording things for those in the future, that we do actually know what the passed was in actuality. If you don't know, or are unsure, then say so in your records. Your descendents will not call you names if you don't know. They surely will if they discover that you continued the enhanced story of the ancestor. Just my waffle for now. Kind Regards, Peter Leroy

Maybe they used the same travel agent ? > Can anyone give me a hint why so many of the Huguenots settling in Palatinate > (Mannheim etc) around 1651 left the Thierache at that time? Kind Regards, Peter Leroy

Ina -- you might want to have a look at the background material at www.demarests.com After that, please feel free to contact me or another director of the Demarest Genealogical Society -- we'll tell you what (little) we know about David and Marie. -----Original Message----- From: Inajono@aol.com [mailto:Inajono@aol.com] Sent: Friday, February 17, 2006 2:20 PM To: HUGUENOTS-WALLOONS-EUROPE-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [HWE] Why leaving Picardie and Thierache shortly after 1650 Can anyone give me a hint why so many of the Huguenots settling in Palatinate (Mannheim etc) around 1651 left the Thierache at that time? The first birth registered in the French church of Mannheim was David DESMAREST, son of David DESMAREST and his wife Marie SOHIER born 20. Dec. 1651. Did they leave because they could settle savely in Mannheim or did they found a church in Mannheim because so many had to leave? (2 birth in 1652 and 13 in 1653, 30 in 1654) Ina www.hugenotten-uckermark.de ==== HUGUENOTS-WALLOONS-EUROPE Mailing List ==== Website for the Huguenots-Walloons-Europe list at: http://www.island.net/~andreav/index.html Lots of information, links to other sites, surnames list. ============================== Find your ancestors in the Birth, Marriage and Death Records. New content added every business day. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13964/rd.ashx

Melissa & Michel, Another thought regarding the "patron" pecheur title; one of the online translators translated this as "skipper" so I wondered if perhaps he was captain of a fishing vessel or possibly commanded a fleet of fishing boats (this was on the south coast of France). If this man was in a royal job, wouldn't his position have dried up as the noose tightened around the protestants? At some point he began signing his name with "dit Fustier." We haven't seen any sign that he was ever a carpenter or fustier (which I take to mean an artisan carpenter) although his grandfather was termed as both. The surname Fustier may have been in his family, but not in his direct line. Interestingly, he had a brother who also was an "ouvrier des monaies du roi" and later became a plain "pecheur" but he too signed his name "dit Fustier" on at least one occasion. Could this have been a way of distinguishing himself as a member of the bourgeois? And one last question (I think!) regarding the cordonnier title; they sometimes were termed "me cordonnier" and "me? cordonnier." I guessed the "me" may mean a "master" shoemaker," but why the question mark symbol? Did it have a different meaning in 17th century French script? Thanks for all your help, Marcia On Feb 17, 2006, at 1:15 PM, Melissa Roy wrote: > Me again! > > Further discussion about "patron pescheur". We agree > that "pescheur" also means "sinner", but it doesn't > make sense in context. > > What makes more sense is "Head of Fisheries". We are > not certain whether this was a royal appointment. > Bearing in mind that France was an absolute monarchy > during the 17th c., the Roi would not just be the > owner of ancestral lands but of territorial waters. > However, there's a slight disagreement in this > household on how that all operated. Michel believes > they operated on a system of royal warrants at the > time whereby there were fishmonger(s) which supplied > fish and seafood exclusively to the royal household > (much as food merchants provide food stuffs > non-exclusively to the royal household in the UK > today). However, I think because their would have > been a Royal Gameskeeper, a Master of Swans, etc., > there must have also been someone in charge of > procurement of fish and seafood who was an actual > member of the Royal household and not just a trade > supplier under warrant or seal. > > These are two opinions on which we would also be > interested in other views/clarification. > > Melissa Roy > --- Marcia Bignall <mbignall@mac.com> wrote: > >> A couple more questions regarding French >> terminology; >> >> One of the 17th century men who originally described >> himself as >> "ouvrier des monaies du roi" is later termed "le >> majeur, patron >> pescheur" and sometimes simply "patron." He wasn't >> military and as >> far as we can tell there wasn't another man with the >> same name in the >> area, so, can the term "le majeur" indicate has >> social class? >> >> As for "patron pescheur" it seems to translate as >> "patron to >> fishermen" but I'm not clear on what that would >> entail. Can someone >> help with this terminology? >> >> Thanks again, >> Marcia >> >> >> ==== HUGUENOTS-WALLOONS-EUROPE Mailing List ==== >> Need to unsubscribe but not sure how to do it? >> Full instructions are on the list website at: >> http://www.island.net/~andreav/unsub.htm. >> >> ============================== >> Jumpstart your genealogy with OneWorldTree. Search >> not only for >> ancestors, but entire generations. Learn more: >> http://www.ancestry.com/s13972/rd.ashx >> >> > > > > > ___________________________________________________________ > NEW Yahoo! Cars - sell your car and browse thousands of new and > used cars online! http://uk.cars.yahoo.com/

Hello Listers et Listerettes, Marc is offering some very good opinion in : > We have to be clear about what we mean by "government positions". During the > period of the Wars of Religion, the French state (the machinery of > government) was being formed, at first haphazardly and mostly for the > purposes of tax collection and other finance-related needs (wars and royal > lifestyles costing a great deal of money) and then later (and particularly > under Mazarin and Richelieu) systematically, for bureaucratic and > intelligence-gathering purposes. The French "state", as such, can be read as those who did as they were told by the Kings' closest associates and not necessarily the way in which we today use the term. Equality , Fraternity was a yet to be heard of term, during this period. > At that same time, the new "state" machinery was clashing with older > bureaucratic forms -- those of individual principalities, of self-governing > cities, of the church, and of the law, all of which operated > semi-autonomously from, and often at odds with, the national "state". Exactly the point. While the puppets of the King were busily attempting to keep their own little power bases, there were many others in local seats of power attempting to use their own family interests to gain further estates and power. The church, (Catholic) and its struggles with the Protestants (Huguenot) was really just a side issue to the struggles of those forming the new middle class. Remember folks that until this period there was no such thing as what we today refer to as the middle classes. Prior to the rising of the accountants and merchants there were only two ways. The "haves" and the "have nots". "Haves" being minor nobility and upward, the "have nots" those who worked for the "haves" Much of the rise of the Huguenot had to do with those merchants, lawyers and accountants who saw a way of increasing their own estates under the guise of the religious wars. For some odd reason much of this is buried by historians as they just love the fanciful idea that this period of history was all about religion. Marc continued on with : > This would NOT mean that Protestants were not in positions of state power in > parts of modern-day France during the period under discussion. They most > assuredly were, and in some areas dominated the 'government' of a particular > city or region, in power if not in number. All history is local and specific > in this period, so know WHERE you are researching.... Once again calling a spade a shovel ! In far of Bretagne, there were many locals with ideas of using the religious quarrel to their own seperate advantage. In some towns, cities in Normandie there were several families who did as Marc is suggesting. By sheer weight of numbers, dominated the local decision making. If they did not have the numbers then they certainly used their financial clout to have things done in their favor. None of which had anything to do with the King of France or the squabbles of the religious proponents. Sounds familiar to modern day democracy, doesn't it now ? Every one is equal, but those with money or supply food, are more equal than others. Hmm I wonder if Marx had Huguenot ancestors ? Oh yes, yes.. suffering , torture and badly done by were our Huguenot ancestors, but let us not confuse the creation of the middle class with the wars of religion in France. Easily done, as they occured at the same time. Kind Regards, Peter Leroy

Thanks Melissa! A maker of coins for the royal mint is just what I was looking for. "Money handler" didn't do it for me. This is all making sense (except for the supervisor of "sinners" of course). The last time this man is found described as an "ouvrier des monaies du roi" was in 1663. As a Protestant I bet he had to find another line of work not associated with the royal mint or any other government position. And yes, the upper classes needed their cordonniers too, so that does explain why I'm seeing bourgeois shoemakers. Marcia On Feb 17, 2006, at 12:41 PM, Melissa Roy wrote: > Marcia > > "Ouvrier des monaies du roi" means treasurer (or > someone who works at the royal mint, making actual > coins). > > "Patron" is "boss". > "Majeure" is "supervisor". > "Pescheur". I've seen this in 16th and 17th century > text as another word for "sinner". Now, what "the > supervisor, boss sinner" has to do with the treasury > is probably best left up to another interpretation!! > > Melissa Roy > --- Marcia Bignall <mbignall@mac.com> wrote: > >> A couple more questions regarding French >> terminology; >> >> One of the 17th century men who originally described >> himself as >> "ouvrier des monaies du roi" is later termed "le >> majeur, patron >> pescheur" and sometimes simply "patron." He wasn't >> military and as >> far as we can tell there wasn't another man with the >> same name in the >> area, so, can the term "le majeur" indicate has >> social class? >> >> As for "patron pescheur" it seems to translate as >> "patron to >> fishermen" but I'm not clear on what that would >> entail. Can someone >> help with this terminology? >> >> Thanks again, >> Marcia >> >> >> ==== HUGUENOTS-WALLOONS-EUROPE Mailing List ==== >> Need to unsubscribe but not sure how to do it? >> Full instructions are on the list website at: >> http://www.island.net/~andreav/unsub.htm. >> >> ============================== >> Jumpstart your genealogy with OneWorldTree. Search >> not only for >> ancestors, but entire generations. Learn more: >> http://www.ancestry.com/s13972/rd.ashx >> >> > > > > > ___________________________________________________________ > To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all > new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com

Hello listers -- I'm glad to see some chat amongst subscribers but I see that a reminder is in order about one of our guidelines. Please help to cut down on the amount of previously posted material being sent, quite unneccessarily, back to the list multiple times. You can do this by following the advice in one of our HWE guidelines (see below). My grateful thanks in advance. Your list concierge, Andrea This is HWE guideline number five: "When replying to a previous post by another subscriber, it's important to: a) delete most or all of that previous post in your reply, b) make sure the subject line is appropriate, changing it if necessary and c) place a short summary or <snip> of the previous message at the beginning of your reply. Reason: a) Deleting previously posted material eliminates duplication of information, both on the list and in the list archives. b) Subject lines should match message content. c) A summary or <snip> lets others know immediately what you are talking about. It's a reminder of the previous post and brings new subscribers into the discussion without them wondering what it's all about." All of our list guidelines are on the HWE website here (in four different languages): http://www.island.net/~andreav/hweguide.htm. END

--- Marcia Bignall <mbignall@mac.com> wrote: > Hi Tony & all, > > I remember reading somewhere that beginning in > 1662(?) French > Protestants were denied the right to hold government positions. Can > someone point me to something concrete regarding that law? > We have to be clear about what we mean by "government positions". During the period of the Wars of Religion, the French state (the machinery of government) was being formed, at first haphazardly and mostly for the purposes of tax collection and other finance-related needs (wars and royal lifestyles costing a great deal of money) and then later (and particularly under Mazarin and Richelieu) systematically, for bureaucratic and intelligence-gathering purposes. At that same time, the new "state" machinery was clashing with older bureaucratic forms -- those of individual principalities, of self-governing cities, of the church, and of the law, all of which operated semi-autonomously from, and often at odds with, the national "state". I will get you the specific cites in a bit (have to go cite-diving) that I think get at what you are asking, which is I take it "were Protestants prevented by royal decree and/or treaty from holding 'national' government posts and if so during what periods?" This would NOT mean that Protestants were not in positions of state power in parts of modern-day France during the period under discussion. They most assuredly were, and in some areas dominated the 'government' of a particular city or region, in power if not in number. All history is local and specific in this period, so know WHERE you are researching.... As others have been saying with respect to class and profession, indirectly -- let's not export our 'modern' notions of government back to the 17th century. The modern nation-state system did not exist in any real form (in terms of international law) prior to the peace of Westphalia (1648), and the modern notion of the internal state (strong, unitary central government with a bureaucratic hierarchy reaching into the hinterlands) was itself a product of the turmoil of the 1600s and 1700s, could not be said to be the norm prior (IMHO) to the Congress of Vienna, and was still being contested (according to some historians) as late as the revolutions of 1848.

A couple more questions regarding French terminology; One of the 17th century men who originally described himself as "ouvrier des monaies du roi" is later termed "le majeur, patron pescheur" and sometimes simply "patron." He wasn't military and as far as we can tell there wasn't another man with the same name in the area, so, can the term "le majeur" indicate has social class? As for "patron pescheur" it seems to translate as "patron to fishermen" but I'm not clear on what that would entail. Can someone help with this terminology? Thanks again, Marcia

Hi Tony & all, "Ouvrier des moniaes du roi" seems to translate as "money handler for the king" but can someone give me a better translation and a description of what that job entailed? Cordonnier was a shoemaker but I'm finding that some men who called themselves "cordonnier" weren't common cobblers, rather they seem to have been of an artisan or merchant class, i.e., bourgeois. Does this make sense? I remember reading somewhere that beginning in 1662(?) French Protestants were denied the right to hold government positions. Can someone point me to something concrete regarding that law? Thanks all, Marcia

I get closer each day.but I must unsub keep on-keeping on-never quit. Roger http://community.webtv.net/zgordo/GORDOSGENEALOGY

Mullett's and LeHuquets keep on-keeping on-never quit. Roger http://community.webtv.net/zgordo/GORDOSGENEALOGY

See "Silver, Sails and Silk' by Alicia St Leger about the Huguenots in Cork. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Barnard" <alan_barnard@telus.net> To: <HUGUENOTS-WALLOONS-EUROPE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2006 1:19 PM Subject: Re: [HWE] BESNARD CORK IRELAND > Your message interested me when you mentioned the name BESNARD because I > have never heard of it before. Family legend has it that our > BARNARD/BERNARD family were Huguenots. My family do not appear to have > ever been wealthy but could those names be anglicised versions of Besnard > ? > > Any thoughts anyone? > > Alan > > At 14:35 06-02-06, Lorraine wrote: >>JULIUS BESNARD owned linen mills Douglas, CORK IRE. His gt gfr PIERRE >>BESNARD md,MARIE DUBOIS in France. Born about 1630/1650. Does anyone >>have info. which would tell me what area of France they came from? My 6xgt >>gparents. Thank you. Lorra > > > ==== HUGUENOTS-WALLOONS-EUROPE Mailing List ==== > Have you submitted your surnames for our list web site? > To do so will make your names accessible to others on the Web. > For more info, contact Andrea (list admin)at andreav@island.net. > > ============================== > Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the > last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx > >

JULIUS BESNARD owned linen mills Douglas, CORK IRE. His gt gfr PIERRE BESNARD md,MARIE DUBOIS in France. Born about 1630/1650. Does anyone have info. which would tell me what area of France they came from? My 6xgt gparents. Thank you. Lorra

http://web.city.victoria.bc.ca/archives/marriagepic.htm> .......................................................................... <http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:AMSJmp-Vcv4J:www.queensjournal.ca/vol132/issue38/+LeHuquet&hl=en&ie=UTF-8> ......................................................................... The first woman looks like my mother and the second look like me.Especially the Teeth and Facial features. keep on-keeping on-never quit. Roger http://community.webtv.net/zgordo/GORDOSGENEALOGY