While digging out the answer to the "When were royal offices first denied to Huguenots?" question, I found a lovely map showing the probable population of Calvinists in various parts of the royal demense for the period 1630-1670. The numbers are definitely more....circumspect?...than those of the Victorian-era chroniclers (who relied on people's reportage in a pre-statistics era). http://www.demarests.com/documents/huguenot_population_map.pdf The file is ~250K.

In answer to the question "When were Huguenots prohibited from acting as royal officials?" this, from Roger Mettam's excellent "Louis XIV and the Persection of the Huguenots" (which can be found in Irene Scouloudi, ed. Huguenots in Britain and their French Background, 1550-1800. Published by the Huguenot Society of Great Britain and Ireland). "One striking difference can be seen in the attitude of the crown to the Huguenots after the year 1679. Before then, most (royal) correspondence on that subject had referred to specific individuals or events. Now there began to be a host of more general pronouncements, some asking for information, others commanding royal officials to take action throughout the kingdon. New Protestant institutions were to be closed, and those which were well established were to be scrutinized with extreme care to ensure that they were not adding to their legitimate functions. There was always the danger that secret preaching might be taking place in Huguenot libraries, hospitals and poor-houses. It was decreed that members of the RPR should not be appointed to specific judicial offices, and this prohibition was soon extended to include many other posts. Colbert himself remarked that he would appoint fewer Huguenots to offices which lay in his gift. [MD: Colbert favored Huguenot agents for revenue-related positions, largely because of what he perceived to be their probity and efficiency.] "It should immediately be observed that these royal bans on entry into office for Protestants were far from effective. Frequently the proscription was simply disobeyed and many local officials seemed disinclined to enforce it. When one of the forbidden posts was already in Huguenot hands, it was now required that the holder should convert or sell his position to a Catholic. Often it proved impossible to find such a purchaser, in which case the crown had two laternative courses of action, neither of which was practicable. The government could buy the office itself or could arbitrarily suppress it without compensation. The former course would be costly, and Colbert was unwilling to permit it. Much revenue was being lost from the policy of granting fiscal exemptions to converts (from the RPR to Catholicism, the "abjurers"), because the local communities were not making good the lost taxes. The treasury simply could not have borne this additional burden. As for dismissing a venal officer without reimbursing him, that was the kind of high-handed action which had provoked the first Fronde of 1648-9 and might again prompt bureaucrats, of both faiths, to unite against such a threat to their tenure. Privately Colbert was pleased that it was therefore difficult to remove some of these officials, because many of them were able and skilled bureaucrats." [MD: It is worth remembering that by the mid-1600s, roughly 1 in 2 royal offices was venal: that is, purchased/purchasable. Some of these offices had lovely-sounding titles, including secretary-to-the-King. It is also worth remembering that the paulette, the fee paid by a venal office holder to render his office transferable and inheritable, was a lucrative source of income for the royal treasury. Finally, we need to keep in mind that holding many offices for 3 consecutive generations within a family led to enoblement -- the noblesse de robe. There were, by 1679, quite a number of venal Protestant office-holders, particularly in the financial and judicial networks, with their own clientele networks, and a good bit of political clout. As Peter has said, more than once, this urban, merchantile, moneyed, collaborating Protestant middle class-on-the-make is something that frequently gets washed out in our "prosecuted-and-driven-from-pillar-to-post mythmaking.]

Samuel Smiles indeed has a boatload to say -- bits of it oddly reminiscent of Weiss ;-> -- on Huguenots in Ireland, and in his inimitable fashion has several half-page footnotes that include various clues and pointers worth looking into. My usual caveat: Smiles was not a scholar, and he was definitely the leader of the Society For The Restoration Of Huguenot Descendents' Social Standing, so take care when reading, and verify everything with other sources. To avoid larding up people's inboxes, I have PDF'd the relevant sections and placed the PDF at http://www.demarests.com/documents/smiles_on_ireland.pdf The document is 3.2MB.

-----Original Message----- From: lfriss@usc.edu [mailto:lfriss@usc.edu] There was no French community of note in Jamestown. I have been advised to read Hugenot history for clues. Was there any migration pattern from France to Southern Ireland (could have been County Clare) Lois: Below, find Weiss (the best of the Victorian era historians, I think) on Huguenot migration to Ireland *after* the Revocation. Like all historians of that period, his greatest asset is his voluminous detail and his greatest liability is his sometimes odd interpretations. Weiss, note, was a French scholar, writing in French from French and English primary materials which he does footnote (so if this intrigues you I recommend you get yourself a copy of Weiss from a used dealer, abebooks or alibris). I am sure Samuel Smiles has something to say as well, and I will dig that out in a moment and see if it's complete dreck or not. ---- M. Charles Weiss. History of the French Protestant Refugees From The Revocation Of The Edict Of Nantes To Our Own Day. Translated by Henry William Herbert. New York: Stringer & Townsend, 1854. Volume 1. Pages 253-256 To conclude, Ireland, after the fall of James II., received several thousands of refugees, who spread themselves through the towns of Dublin, Cork, Kilkenny, Waterford, Lisburn, and Portarlington. The French colonies in that island date back to the fourteenth year of Charles II. In 1674, the parliament, established at Dublin, passed an act, by which be promised all the alien Protestants, who should come over and settle in Ireland, letters of naturalization, and free admission into all corporations. The Duke of Ormond, viceroy of Ireland under Charles II., favored, to the utmost of his abilities, the establishment of the Reformed Churches in that country. A faithful servant of Charles I., he had retired to France after the victory of the parliament, and had contracted intimate relations with the ministers of Caen and Paris. In a dedicatory letter, Charles Drelincourt, minister of Chareuton, addressed him with these well-deserved praises—" By the purity of your life, you have vindicated our religion from the charge of libertinage brought against it , and by your inviolable attachment to your sovereign, you have confounded those, who accuse it of rebellion against superior powers." The colony, which the refugees formed in Dublin, partly owed to him its origin and early progress. His agents, scattered throughout France, promised to all Protestants, seeking an asylum in Ireland, great facilities for the manufacture of woollens and linens, and to those who preferred applying themselves to agriculture, fertile pasturages and good arable lands, with all the materials necessary for the construction of houses, on payment of a trifling ground rent. He even engaged to take charge, until they should amount to 50,000 crowns, of all the funds intrusted to him by the emigrants, to deposit them in sure hands, and to pay ten per cent. interest, with permission to the depositors to withdraw their-money at will and to employ it otherwise. He guaranteed free exercise of religion to all who should prefer continuing in the Calvinist religion, on condition of supporting their pastors themselves. But he offered to take on himself the charge of supporting the ministers of those who, after the example of the Dublin colony, should unite themselves to the Church of England. Several Protestant lords followed the example of the viceroy. One of these, whose demesnes lay in the interior of the island, caused numbers of printed notices to be distributed throughout France, with a view to inviting Protestants to come over and settle on his estates. He promised to all who should wish to build, and increase the value of the lands assigned to them, one and twenty years leases, or, should they prefer it, three life leases, without their being subject to any rent for the first seven years—thereafter they should be liable only to a moderate ground rent on which both parties should agree, proportionate to the amount of land brought under cultivation. The English government was laboring at that time to infuse new life into that unhappy country, the population of which, decimated by Cromwell and Ireton, had been forced back, almost entire, into the wild and sterile province of Connaught. The rising of the Irish in favor of James II., and the disastrous war, which was terminated by the battle of the Boyne, having again deluged the kingdom with blood, and covered it with ruins, the Protestant interest required the renewal of the measures adopted under the reign of Charles II. In 1692, the Irish parliament, composed of zealous Orangists, succeeded in reviving the bill of 1674, of which experience had demonstrated the efficiency. The oath of supremacy, which had been exacted from the new colonists up to that time, was abrogated, and the free exercise of their worship was guaranteed throughout the whole island. The French who had accompanied William III., at once profited by the bill. Those who established themselves in Dublin obtained the cession to themselves of the church of the Jesuits, who had been expelled the city by the victors. Many officers, who had accompanied William III., and fought under his banner, reduced to half pay after the peace of Ryswick, united themselves to the Dublin colony, which became one of the bulwarks of the Protestant party, against the enterprises of the Jacobites. Others joined the colonies of Waterford and Lisburn, and their descendants continued to speak French until the end of the eighteenth century, and especially in the colony of Portarlington, on the Barrow, founded in the beginning of the reign of Elizabeth. The Marquis of Ruvigny, who had received a vast concession of lands in the vicinity of the last-named town, invited thither about four hundred French, and built a church and school at his own expense. At the same time with these military colonies, intended to cover Dublin, there arose another at Cork, consisting entirely of merchants. The richest of these were Ardouin, Cazalette, De La Millière, Cozart, Bossy, Bonneval, Maziére, Hardi and Fontaine. During a long space of time, they held aloof from all fusion with the native population. Nearly all of them inhabited the same quarter, which forms to-day the parish of St. Paul's, the principal street of which is still known, from its early settlers, as French Church Street. In the middle of the eighteenth century, the French colonies in Ireland received an increase as considerable as it was unexpected. In 1751, the Count of Saint-Priest, intendant of Languedoc, forced a crowd of religionists to emigrate by the severity with which he executed the edicts. In the first moment of terror, most of the fugitives betook themselves to Switzerland. More than six hundred of them passed through the single Canton of Berne, during the months of June and July, 1752. This band, greatly augmented, descended the Rhine to Rotterdam, and after receiving the generous succors of the Walloon churches, proceeded to take refuge in Ireland, where the cares of the British government, of some bishops, and numbers of private individuals, had prepared them establishments. The principal Irish colonies, therefore, did not exist until after the reign of James II. ***

Hello, HWE -- The following is a message that was posted on the HWE Message Board and which I'm now forwarding to the list. It's a transcription of the will of Dr. Lewis MAUZY of Devon, England, dated 1726. There's lots of potentially useful family info in the will and note also that there are family ties to both France and Ireland. If you wish to reply to this Board post, please do so *on the Board* (not on the list) by following the instructions at the very end of this message. The transcriber of the will is not a member of this list. Regards, Andrea (HWE list concierge) Transcript of the 1726 Will of Dr. Lewis MAUZY, of Exeter, Devonshire, England [ Dr Lewis MAUZY (born Aunis Province, France circa 1670-75; died Exeter, England, 1727) was the maternal grandfather of Colonel Richard Hutchinson LONG (1740-1814), of Longfield House, Ardmayle, Cashel, Tipperary, Ireland. Richard Hutchinson LONG was the younger son of Edward LONG (d 1773), of Lacken House, Ardfinnan & of Caher Abbey, Caher, Tipperary, & of the City of Cork, by his wife, Elizabeth MAUZY (d 1799), daughter of Dr Lewis Mauzy, by his wife, Anne HUTCHINSON (d post 1757), daughter of Edward HUTCHINSON (1632-1699), of Knocklofty, Clonmel, Tipperary, Ireland ] I Lewis MAUZY of the City of Exeter M.B. do make my last Will and Testament as followeth Imprimis my Soul into the hands of God Almighty hopeing to find Mercy from him by the mediation of my blessed Redeemer Jesus Christ It is my desire to be buryed in the most private manner my body to be laid in a plain black coffin without any Binding and carried to the Grave by six honest and ordinary Men without any other Bearers or Mourning Whereas there was a Marriage Settlement made the 8th of June 1705 for settling portions for my Children and as a Joynture on my now wife Ann it is my Will that everything therein contained be fulfilled and observed and further it is my will that my daughter Elizabeth shall have out of my personal estate so much money as shall (with what is already settled for the maintenance of younger Children in the above mentioned Settlement to the sume of four hundred pounds and no more that is one hundred and fifty pounds out of the five hundred pounds specified in my Marriage Settlement for the maintenance of younger Children and that my daughter Mary shall likewise have so much money as shall with the Two hundred and fifty pounds being half of the five hundred pounds settled for maintenance of younger Children as aforesaid) make up the sume of three hundred and fifty pounds that is one hundred pounds out of my personal Estate and no more and I do appoint my Brother in Law Andrew MAJENDIE Minister of one of the French Congregations in Exeter and my brother in Law Mr. Richard HUTCHINSON of Knocklofty in the County of Tipperary in Ireland and my Brother in Law Mr. James MASSIOTT Merchant in Cork Trustees for my said two daughters to lay out the said severall Sumes of four hundred pounds and Three hundred and fifty and to reserve the Interest thereof for the use of my said two Daughters respectively paying my said two daughters such reasonable maintenance as they shall think convenient till my said two daughters shall attain the age of one and Twenty or when they or either of them shall be Marryed respectively And Whereas my wife as by the said Settlement to pay twenty pounds per Annum out of Interest of fifteen hundred pounds Settled on her for her Jointure for the use of my Children I desire that the said twenty pounds per Annum may be paid to the above mentioned Trustees for the use of my only son Lewis MAUZY only, my daughter[s] being considered to have as much as before mentioned and this not to be reasoned [?] as taken out of their fortunes And further it is my Will that whenever my wife shall dye and the fifteen hundred pounds Settled as her jointure shall come to my son Lewis that then my son Lewis shall then be oblidged and not before to pay unto my daughter Elizabeth one hundred pounds and one hundred and fifty pounds to my daughter Mary or to the already mentioned Trustees for their respective uses and I do hereby appoint Mr. Andrew MAJENDIE Mr. Richard HUTCHINSON and Mr. James MASSIOTT Executors of this my last Will and Testament to whom I give all the rest and residue of my Goods and Chattells in Trust nevertheless to and for the sole use and behoofe of my son Lewis MAUZY till he attain the age of twenty three desiring the said Trustees to Act towards my said son as they shall think convenient and to bring him up to some Trade or profession as they shall judge proper and he shall like and I do further desire and it is my Will that my said Trustees take care of all my Son's fortune and not pay him the Bulk of such his fortune till he attain the age of three and twenty unless they shall think it proper for his my sons advancement and in case my said son should happen to dye before he attain the age of twenty three then in Trust for my two said daughters ~~ Elizabeth and Mary equally to be divided between 'em as they or either of them shall attain the age of Twenty one or shall be Marryed respectively and if either of my daughters should dye before their respective Marriages or before they attain the age of one and twenty it is my Will that the fortune of the deceased daughter shall be divided equally between my son Lewis and the Surviving Daughter or if my two daughters shall dye before Marriage or the age of 21, then their respective fortunes to come to my son Lewis and if my son and two daughters should all dye without Issue by them lawfully begotten it is my will that that part of the £2000 Settled by my Marriage Settlement for the use of my wife and Children Whereby it is provided that in case our Issue did dye one Thousand pounds or so much out of the Lands (if any were purchased) or out of that £2000 should revert to my heires Executors or Administrators it is my will that if such a case did happen my Sister Elizabeth MAUZY now in France shall have one hundred pounds paid her if she should then be living out of the said £1000, or Lands purchased by it and that my Sister Magdalen MASSIOTT wife of Mr. James MASSIOTT of Cork Merchant should have also one hundred pounds paid her if she should then be alive and the whole remaining part of the said £1000, or Lands purchased by it I give to the Children of my Sister Susanna MAJENDIE then living to be divided between them share and share alike but it is my will that her younger son Andrew MAJENDIE shall have one hundred pounds above the rest of her Children I give to my Wife her Gold Watch but it is my will that if it happens that my Wife and family after my decease did remove out of this kingdom to Ireland that the Trust reposed in my Brother in Law Mr. Andrew MAJENDIE to cease and be as if he had not been mentioned and then the sole Trust to be in my two Brothers in law Mr. Richard HUTCHINSON and Mr. James MASSIOTT and I do hereby revoke all former Wills ratifying and confirming this as my last Will and Testament as Witness my hand and Seal this 8th of Oct. 1726 ~ Lewis MAUZY ~ Signed Sealed and delivered and acknowledged to be the Last Will and Testament of the above mentioned Lewis MAUZY in the presence of us ~ Etheld DAVY [second signature illegible] Probatum [Probate in Latin -- brief English extract follows] Probate in London November 4, 1727. Prerogative Court of Canterbury. Venerable John BETTESWORTH Doctor of Law presiding. Executors Andrew MAJENDIE, Richard HUTCHINSON & James MASSIOT. =================================== To reply to the above Board post, please go to this page on the HWE Board http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec?htx=message&r=rw&p=topics.religious.huguenots.huguenots-walloons-eur&m=361 then click on Post Reply. END

Hello listers, Any body come across the surname of ALLOHEIRE or anything remotely like it (not OLLIVER) I believe it is an English corruption of OLLIER (my ancestors) they seem to have come to Cheshire from know where! c1570. Many thanks. Lawrence Ollier. http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~ollier/

This email is a reply to the one by Martin who raised the idea of surnames making transitions over the years. It does seem that surnames evolve or go through some transitions. It also depends on where the surname is being used. An easy example which comes to mind is Smith, Schmidt, Smid -- English, German, and Dutch versions of the same surname. One of my surnames that I know was definitely Walloon is Meijnet in the Netherlands. It is also spelled Meynet and Meinet. I read somewhere that these are surnames that are related to a French Huguenot surname of "Menet". My 2nd great-grandmother had been born in Groningen, the Netherlands. There are several spellings of her maiden name Reiseger amongst the Dutch. It can be spelled Reiseger, Reijseger, Reisiger, Reiziger, Reisseger. Sometimes her cousins or ancestors spelled the surname one way while other relatives spelled it differently. It didn't seem to matter if they lived in the same city or not because it was spelled in all sorts of ways. Yet, when the genealogical lines for a person were traced, they most likely led back to the earliest found "Reiseger" families about 1700 and then the families disappeared. Recently I found some records of the same time period in Germany as "Reisiger". The families were living in the city of Meinerzhagen and some of these individuals then show up in the northern part of the Netherlands and even Denmark. About a year ago, another researcher from France contacted me about a French family he was researching and he thought they would eventually be connected to the Dutch "Reiseger" families. The French spelling was "Ressegaire". Since then I have learned another French spelling which was "Ressiguier". Families living in England who might be related spelled the name "Recequiere" and "Reseguerre". Spelling was never standardized until relatively recently (maybe 150 to 200 years). So it is the pronunication and meanings which may link similar surnames together and not the spelling. While I originally thought my Reiseger family were only Dutch, I'm starting to wonder if they weren't also Huguenots. (Now to prove my hypothesis it might take another 20 years of research.) To be honest, it hadn't occurred to me that the heritage of my Reiseger family might eventually lead to France and that the family could also be Huguenot. Of course we have to trace one individual and generation at a time but it still is an intriguing thought to me. It illustrates to me once more that well-known genealogical principle of "thinking outside the box". (I always thought my friends held fast to their box flaps but not me -- smile.) Not everything has to be the way we always assumed. The are many other possibilities in many cases. While I am no expert in languages, I know that there are many participants on this list who speak multiple languages. So someone might look at Martin's surname "Blignaut" and see a variety of spelling possibilities he might check. It could save him a lot of research time. Surely the surname doesn't simply disappear in modern France but perhaps is a different version of the same surname. By the way, I'm really enjoying reading the submissions on this list. There is always something new that I'm learning from all the participants. Thank you for the valuable lessons and insights you've provided me over the last several months. It is expanding my world and makes life so interesting. Mary Scott from Michigan in USA Martin <moslins@myway.com> wrote: My surname [ Blignaut ] does not seem to exist in present-day France - it probably disappeared along with my Huguenot ancestors when they fled to Holland in the 17th Century. Is there anybody else in the same position with regard to their surname ? ... --------------------------------- Yahoo! Autos. Looking for a sweet ride? Get pricing, reviews, & more on new and used cars.

Hello, I wil shortly be "unsubscribing" for a while. Before I go I am submitting my family names. As well as the areas I have shown I am interested in others. On returning from my holidays I will hopefully find a full email box with messages from interested folk. , BRITTON - Weeley, Essex and East End of London. FOX - Devon and Canning Town, London. SIMISTER - Manchester, Canning Town, London, Australia, USA. PULSFORD - London, Essex, Norfolk, Devon, Bournemouth, Eastbourne, Spain. TREERS - London, USA Sheila.

Hello Lawrence, For what it's worth--I've seen an OILLER/OILER family in Marseille who were French Protestants and may have left France with others in late 1685. But this seems to be 100 years too late for your research. They may have removed to London where I've seen the name as HOLLIER and other variant spellings. Marcia On Feb 19, 2006, at 1:29 PM, Lawrence Ollier wrote: > Hello listers, > Any body come across the surname of ALLOHEIRE or anything remotely > like it (not OLLIVER) I believe it is an English corruption of > OLLIER (my ancestors) they seem to have come to Cheshire from know > where! c1570.

This is a reply to Sheila who posted today regarding some of her surnames of interest before she unsubs termporarily. Sheila, I certainly hope others will reply to the list with info for you but it would also be helpful if you mentioned -- even if just briefly and generally if that's all you have time for right now -- the Huguenot and/or Walloon origins or connections to these surnames. I am asking this not only because that is the focus of this list but also because I don't think you've posted about any of these surnames before (or at least an archives search didn't turn up any previous posts which mentioned them during the last three years). Lastly, I notice that one of the locations you mentioned was "London, USA". Was this a typo? If not, an indication of exactly where in the US this London was would be helpful. There must be at least a few of them. Regards, Andrea (list concierge)

Hi<br><br><br>My surname [ Blignaut ] does not seem to exist in present-day France - it probably disappeared along with my Huguenot ancestors when they fled to Holland in the 17th Century. Is there anybody else in the same position with regard to their surname ? In addition, is there anyone amongst you whose ancestors came from the Champagne Region, especially the Marne Department ? Information about this area of north-eastern France during the Reformation, is a little scarce. Indeed, the World Wars apart, not much seems to have been written about the History of the Marne Department,unless of course, you are only interested in the famous fizzy drink which was developed after most of our ancestors departed ! <br><br><br>_______________________________________________<br>No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding.<br>Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com<br><br> _______________________________________________ No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding. Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com

Lois, Huguenots actually migrated to England over a 150-year period, (1550-1700). Ireland was looking for settlers and many French/Flanders folk wound up there. During the period of continuous Huguenot migration to England, there were two main waves: the first, during the persecution of the late sixteenth century, and the second, after the Revocation of the Edict of Nantes in 1685. We need to keep in mind that while many of Huguenots and later arrivals were refugees on account of their Protestant beliefs, not all were. Some were economic migrants looking for a better living and some were social migrants joining friends and family already living here. For others a number of reasons combined to influence their migrability e.g., newlyweds were disproportionately represented. In the sixteenth century Calvinism won as followers about half of France's nobility and a third of the bourgeoisie. They were scattered through France, with clusters in the south, south-west, in Poitou, Normandy and Alsace-Lorraine. In the St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre (1572), when about 3,000 prominent Huguenots who had gathered in Paris for the marriage of the king's sister, Marguerite, to Henry of Navarre, were murdered, a further 8,000 Huguenots were later killed in outer provinces. In my family's line: There was a Jane (Jeanette) JENNIN, who was born in Croisilles, Pas de Calais, France d/o Francois JENNIN and Louis MORON and later brought to Ireland by her Uncle, Jean Jennin with his family in abt. 1570. Concurrently, John (Jean) PADOC bapt. 19 July 1550 in Le Cateau, France; came with his parents to Ireland via England from France well before 1580. John learned the blacksmith trade and met Jane Jennings or a marriage was arranged for them in Ireland. He m. Jane 12 Aug 1580. One of their children, Robert Paddock, was in Plymouth MA by 1634, working as a blacksmith. Though he had been born in France among the "landed gentry", Jean (John) alledgedly fled to England, then settled with his family for "religious as well as political reasons" and became a blacksmith, settling in Stephenstown, Balrothery Parish, County Dublin, Ireland in 1580, and later purchased land in Tullygovan near Killany, Barony of Ardee, County Louth, Ireland, from Nicholas Ball and his wife. The early history of Paddocks in France may be accurate but then again may be subject to conjecture. Jean (John) Padoc could have have left Le Cateau a few years after the St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre. Maybe it was for economic or religious reasons, or just wanting to be rid of the more or less constant fighting and upheaval in the area where they lived. Additionally, if the Paddock lineage traced back to the 13th or 14th century is accurate, then the Padocs were likely a prominent family. LE CATEAU, or CATEAU-CAMBRESIS, is a town now in northern France, in the department of Nord, on the River Selle, 15 m. E.S.E. of Cambrai by road. Formed by the union of the two villages of Peronne and Vendelgies, under the protection of a castle built by the bishop of Cambrai, Le Cateau became the seat of an abbey in the 11th century. In the 16th it was frequently taken and retaken, and in 1556 it was burned by the French, who in 1559 signed a celebrated treaty with Spain in the town. It was finally ceded to France in 1678. The Paddocks were prominent people; landed barons, and thus to some degree their descendency would have been tracked; regular citizens generally weren't. It is quite feasible the family was fearful, fled their comfortable lives in France and later got involved in blacksmithing as a means of survival and became commoners. Quite a fall from grace there, in one generation. Hope this helps a bit or elicits more comment. ----- Original Message ----- From: Lois Friss To: HUGUENOTS-WALLOONS-EUROPE-L@rootsweb.com Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2006 10:24 AM Subject: [HWE] French in Ireland My 2nd great grandparents (O'Brien, O'Leary) lived in County Kildare Ireland; born abt. 1815. Their paternal grandparents were also in Ireland although I have no proof that they were born there; no information on their wives. The O'Brien's immigrated with 3 teen age sons to Jamestown New York in the early 1850s where they read French newspapers and were considered well educated. They were Catholics. She supposedly taught French before she immigrated. There was no French community of note in Jamestown. I have been advised to read Hugenot history for clues. Was there any migration pattern from France to Southern Ireland (could have been County Clare) Thanks Lois Friss Thousand Oaks, CA ==============================

-----Original Message----- From: peter@leroy.ws [mailto:peter@leroy.ws] Maybe they used the same travel agent ? MD: Not so funny as it sounds. The David Demarest mentioned in Ina's inquiry (the father, not the son) clearly traveled in a pack...several of the people at Mannheim during his time there (and with whom he founded and built the Temple) are also listed in the manifest of the ship in which he traveled from Amsterdam to New Amsterdam and/or noted among the citizenry of New Amsterdam immediately before or after David's arrival there. And the names of his fellow-travelers are *not* all (or mostly) French names.... One gets a sense of a kind of extended international family -- French-speaking, Dutch-speaking and later English-speaking -- united by religious persuasion, traveling around Europe and ultimately to the New World, looking for commercial opportunities.

From: peter@leroy.ws [mailto:peter@leroy.ws] My rabble of ancestors had some which included Maitre des Requetes de l'Hotel du Roi and Maitre d'Hoptel de Jean de France Duc de Berry, Conseiller du Roi, Maitre des Requetes du Roi and a whole boar load of other nifty titles. Oh yes, and thief, highwayman, smuggler, prostitute, farmer etc. How did they get them one might be asking ? Bought most of them or simply poked a local duc in the ribs with a sword or even made horrible threats such as "title or we blow up your chateau". -- Or subsequently arranged for an early twentieth-century researcher to "link" known ancestors to titled nobility, as was the case with my family, which believed for nearly 60 years that the Huguenot David Demarest (husband of Marie Sohier, mentioned in a post yesterday) who founded a line of the family in the US, was of the Cambray desMarets (one of whom was a minor king in the Holy Land during the period of the Crusades) AND (since it's better to get it on both sides) his wife was descended fro David Sohier de Mons (and that means....tada..... Descended from Charlesmagne!). Neither, alas, proves to be anything more than fiction; our David Demarest was in all likelihood David deMarais -- David of the Marsh ;-> The most interesting part of this story is, however, that the enthusiastic genealogist who paid the researcher who committed this fiction was himself a trained academic, a published scholar and president of a respected academic institution... Which goes to show that the will to believe is a (if not the most) powerful motive force in genealogical research. For anyone interested in the details... http://www.demarests.com/origins/index.html

In regards to my previous question about if & when Protestants were denied the right to hold government positions (probably should have said public positions), here's an edited excerpt from the Huguenots topic in the "Catholic Encyclopedia" on the New Advent Website <http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07527b.htm>. ³. . . as Louis XIV got the reins of government into his own hands, the position of the Huguenots became increasingly unfavourable. After 1660 they were forbidden to hold national synods. . . A royal order of 1663 deprived relapsed persons ‹ i.e. those who had returned to Protestantism after having abjured it ‹ of the benefit of the Edict of Nantes, and condemned them to perpetual banishment. A year later, it is true, this order was suspended, and proceedings under it were arrested. . . the children of Protestants were declared competent to embrace Catholicism at the age of seven, their parents being obliged to make an allowance for their separate support conformably with their station in life. The Protestants soon saw themselves excluded from public office; the chambers in which the parties were equally represented were suppressed, Huguenot preaching was restrained and emigration was forbidden under pain of confiscation of property." Some of the families I¹m working on lived in areas where Protestants were a very small minority and had limited access to their Reformed temples prior to the final Revocation in Oct 1685. On the New Advent website there's also an interesting section which states that in areas where Protestants were numerous and wielded some power, they could be just as intolerant as their Catholic counterparts were in other areas of France: "Truth compels the less prejudiced among their historians to admit that the Huguenots, who complained so much of Catholic intolerance, were themselves just as intolerant wherever they happened to be the stronger. Not only did they retain the church property and the exclusive use of the churches, but, wherever possible (as at Béarn), they even opposed the enforcement of those clauses of the Edict of Nantes which were favourable to Catholics. They went so far as to prohibit Catholic worship in the towns that had been ceded to them."

My 2nd great grandparents (O'Brien, O'Leary) lived in County Kildare Ireland; born abt. 1815. Their paternal grandparents were also in Ireland although I have no proof that they were born there; no information on their wives. The O'Brien's immigrated with 3 teen age sons to Jamestown New York in the early 1850s where they read French newspapers and were considered well educated. They were Catholics. She supposedly taught French before she immigrated. There was no French community of note in Jamestown. I have been advised to read Hugenot history for clues. Was there any migration pattern from France to Southern Ireland (could have been County Clare) Thanks Lois Friss Thousand Oaks, CA

Hi Ida and others Immigrants in Palatinate Calvinists can be found in any region of Palatinate: Metz and the area called Metzer Land, Courcelles and Zweibrücken. They came from Netherlands and the area close to Liège and Verviers and Picardie.In Zweibrücken you will find the families Grandam, Hardi, and Raquet from Verviers by Liège.[1] Many arrived at Zweibrücken from Metz or Metzer Land or Courcelles. The Walloons have spread into all directions, and many of them came to the Palatinate area. Here it might be possible by research in the future to find connections from the emigration from the Netherlands and the refugees, who later arrived at Brandenburg. We have for many families an empty "gap" between 1550-1650, and because of that gap, we can't connect the families to families in their home countries. Probably a lot of Walloons came through Frankfurt a.M. and/or Strassbourg. The first group of religious refugiés in Palatinate were from The Spanish Netherlands and Flemish-speaking. Later the refugiés from the French-speaking part of The Spanish Netherlands arrived. The first colony was in Frankenthal, and these colonist did not come directly from the Netherlands, but came through Schönau by Heidelberg. Ludwig III wanted them to become Lutherans, and then the Palatinate count Johann Casimir invited them to come. The first one had left their home as early as 1521, 1525 and 1529 under Karl V, but in the years 1567-1573 the emigration was more like a flight because of Filip II, duke Alba and the Spanish Inquisition.[2] Frankenthal About 1562 Frederik III (the pious) takes over the souverenity. He closes the monastery in Frankenthal, which became home for 58 refugee families, who had left the Netherlands because of Calvinistic religion. Flemish as well as Walloons came to Frankenthal, and the Germanspeaking population were there of course also, so Flemish, Walloon (a language close to French) and German were spoken in this city. Some information as a contract from 1562 and a landbook from 1596 exist. The people from The Netherlands arrived from Frankfurt in to ships to Roxheim with their Priest Petrus Dathenus (Piet Daets)[3]. They used Flemish as church-language, and the churchbooks are still existing[4]. In 1578 36 Walloon families arrive, in total 72 persons, expelled from Heidelberg by Ludwig IV. They make another Walloon parish. In 1618 they get their own church (Walloon-language). In Gross Frankenthal was also a monastery with Augustinian monks until 1562, and in Klein Frankenthal since the Middle Ages has been a convent with women. This town was occupied by the Spanish in 1623-1632 and 1635-1652. Here a French Reformed Church was started in 1578 by Walloons from the Flemish Church in the town, who had been started as early as 1562. Some more people arrived from Heidelberg and the towns near by, and 1577-1689 the Walloon Church was the same as the old convent church. From 1674 more people arrived. The name of the church is changing l'Eglise réformée Wallone, L'Eglise francaise and Ecclesia Gallica. Frankenthal was totally destroyed by the French the 15.th of September 1689. The parish registers are placed in the town archive.[5] From 1618-1651 the town was occupied by Spanish, Swedish, and again Spanish soldiers[6]. 1689 the town was destroyed by the French; the town is burned down, the church destroyed, the town is robbed, and the Walloon church would never be replaced. The Walloons took of in direction of Hanau and Magdeburg. The Netherlands (Flemish?) and Walloon parish was destroyed.[7] Mutterstadt and Billigheim Walloons and French were living as colonists in the wardestroyed village from 1651. Their church was belonging to French Reformed Church of Alsheim-Gronau. From 1689 most of the community took of for Uckermark.[8] In Billigheim was also a colony, probably people from Schönau or Frankenthal, and during the 30-yearswar there was also occupation by French and Swedish troops. In 1664 some new refugiés arrived from the area Pays de l'Alloeu, and the area was at that time called "L'alloeu Nouveau". During these years are mentioned some names of the colonists: Poillon, de Camps, Salinger, Charlet, Boquay, Segon, Baleu, le Doux, Vattier, de la Place, Harlem and de Lattre. In the colony arrived in 1665 also Valdensians from Piemonte. During the years 1669-1686 are found these names: Layro, Broe, de Faese, Balleux, Herlan, Herpain, Guemar and Ardin. The parish had to fight for its rights, and in this regard are mentioned Boidin, Salomé, Salangre, Combert, and they even got af new house for their priest.[9] The Calvinists in Billigheim left their town in the same way as the colonists of Altenstadt, Archenweyer, Impflingen, Insheim, Offenbach, Rohrbach and Steinweiler Palatinate in the autumn 1686 after harvest. They were called Brigade d'Alsace, And marched directly to Nordhessen, among these were the families: Fouquet, Desrameaux, Delattre, Perrin and Bouché. These families had been living in Oberamt Germersheim, wich Ludwig XIV had claimed the right for. The family Fouquet came from Minfeld, the family Lefèvre from Oberhausen and Bevière from Winden.[10] Oggersheim and Friesenheim In 16.th and 17.th century were in Oggersheim a strong French Reformed Parish and community. In 1652 they had a priest, who were helping out a lot of refugiés in i Friesenheim, Oppau, Edigheim and Studernheim. In taxpaying list from 1584 no Walloon family names are mentioned, perhaps the Walloons were free from paying or were to poor to pay tax. Oppau was a new colony in a destroyed place, and Walloons had arrived here from 1648. Oppau was a minor village belonging to Oggersheim.[11] In Friesenheim were refugiés and Walloons arriving in 1652. Friesenheim was also belonging to Oggersheim. In 1689 a big part of the population took of heading for Uckermark, Brandenburg.[12] Mannheim Mannheim was destroyed in 1606 by Friedrich IV of Palatinate. The name was at that time Friedrichsburg. Mannheim was a fortress. The 24.th of January 1607 the privileges were printed in 4 languages and all confessions were equal[13]. To have more inhabitants some more good privileges were added by Karl Ludwig in 1663 for the citizens of Mannheim.[14] Many new people arrived. Two thirds of the inhabitants were French-speaking (Perhaps Walloon?), and only one third were German speaking. Only ¼ of the houses were owned by Germans. Also Jews and Portuguese were owing houses.[15] In Mannheim were have all kind of Huguenots. Walloon speaking Walloons arrived 1568 from The Spanish Netherlands[16], many of them took of in 1623 heading for Hanau og Frankfurt a.M., but some other new ones arrived 1651[17]. It seams as the Spanish occupation ended in the area about 1551-1552, and the new colonies were founded. But what happened in Picardie and Thierache in these years. Was the war going on in that area, og was the Calvinists thrown out of the area by force or threats. I would like to know that too. Hanne Thorup Koudal http://home5.inet.tele.dk/koudal/slaegt -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [1] Fritz Leonhardt: "Hugenotten im Zweibrücker Land", s. 109 [2] http://www.evpfalz.de/ingenheim/startseite_CB6B2009FC204BE5A9D2FB2A42BF31EA.htm [3] Erich Keyser: "Städtebuch Rheinland-Pfalz und Saarland. Bind 4, hefte 3", s. 137 angiver født 1531 i Kassel (Flandern), død 1588 i Elbing. En af de betydeligste teologer i den nederlandske reformerte kirke i det 16. årh. [4] Johannes E. Bischoff: "Lexikon deutscher Hugenotten-Orte mit Literatur- und Quellen-Nachweisen für ihre evangelisch-reformierten Réfugiés-Gemeinden von Flamen, Franzosen, Waldensern und Wallonen", s. 104 [5] Johannes E. Bischoff: "Lexikon deutscher Hugenotten-Orte", s. 104 [6] http://www.zak-ft.de [7] http://www.zak-ft.de [8] Johannes E. Bischoff: "Lexikon deutscher Hugenotten-Orte", s. 202 [9] http://www.evpfalz.de/ingenheim/startseite_CB6B2009FC204BE5A9D2FB2A42BF31EA.htm [10] Wilhelm Beuleke: "Die Hugenottenkolonie zu Strasburg in der Uckermark", s. 7 [11] Johannes E. Bischoff: "Lexikon deutscher Hugenotten-Orte", s. 215-216 [12] Johannes E. Bischoff: "Lexikon deutscher Hugenotten-Orte", s. 114 [13] Johannes E. Bischoff: "Lexikon deutscher Hugenotten-Orte mit Literatur- und Quellen-Nachweisen für ihre evangelisch-reformierten Réfugiés-Gemeinden von Flamen, Franzosen, Waldensern und Wallonen", s. 187 [14] http://www.uni-mannheim.de/mateo/start5.html [15] Helmut Friedmann: "Alt-Mannheim im Wandel seiner Physiognomie, Struktur und Funktionen", s. 18 [16] Johannes E. Bischoff: "Lexikon deutscher Hugenotten-Orte mit Literatur- und Quellen-Nachweisen für ihre evangelisch-reformierten Réfugiés-Gemeinden von Flamen, Franzosen, Waldensern und Wallonen", s. 188 henviser til F. Hupp: "Die Heimat der Stadt Mannheim" (1939, s. 159) [17] Johannes E. Bischoff: "Lexikon deutscher Hugenotten-Orte mit Literatur- und Quellen-Nachweisen für ihre evangelisch-reformierten Réfugiés-Gemeinden von Flamen, Franzosen, Waldensern und Wallonen", s. 188

Interesting thoughts all. Now "dit" of course means "called" or "known as". "Patron pecheur" could ostensibly mean the captain of a fishing vessel or fleet. "Royal job" - it depends what you mean by "royal"! There were still parts of France which were relatively autonomous for a long time, especially in the Southwest, but most interesting of all is the seeming change in careers of these men. That could certainly indicate a change in social status. Tradespeople, especially artisans, didn't just decide one day to chuck it all in and take up fishing. "Fustier" sounds like a family name to me. The title of "maitre" was usually combined with another word as a title of distinguishment (and still is. It could also mean "merite" or "meullier" but most likely "maitre". It wouldn't mean that one was affiliated with the aristocracy, but that he had attained a certain level of education or expertise in his field. ___________________________________________________________ To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com

Not sure. Certainly the Edict of Fontainbleu (1685) drove most of our Huguenot ancestors out by closing Protestant churches and schools. Remember that all the Treaty of Westphalia did was decree national sovereignty, it did not prescribe any panaceas for the trouble which France brought on herself by excluding and discriminating against the religious minority. I look forward to your links/citations on whether Protestants were allowed to hold positions in government. --- Marc Demarest <marc@noumenal.com> wrote: > > --- Marcia Bignall <mbignall@mac.com> wrote: > > > Hi Tony & all, > > > > I remember reading somewhere that beginning in > > 1662(?) French > > Protestants were denied the right to hold > government positions. Can > > someone point me to something concrete regarding > that law? > > > > We have to be clear about what we mean by > "government positions". During the > period of the Wars of Religion, the French state > (the machinery of > government) was being formed, at first haphazardly > and mostly for the > purposes of tax collection and other finance-related > needs (wars and royal > lifestyles costing a great deal of money) and then > later (and particularly > under Mazarin and Richelieu) systematically, for > bureaucratic and > intelligence-gathering purposes. > > At that same time, the new "state" machinery was > clashing with older > bureaucratic forms -- those of individual > principalities, of self-governing > cities, of the church, and of the law, all of which > operated > semi-autonomously from, and often at odds with, the > national "state". > > I will get you the specific cites in a bit (have to > go cite-diving) that I > think get at what you are asking, which is I take it > "were Protestants > prevented by royal decree and/or treaty from holding > 'national' government > posts and if so during what periods?" > > This would NOT mean that Protestants were not in > positions of state power in > parts of modern-day France during the period under > discussion. They most > assuredly were, and in some areas dominated the > 'government' of a particular > city or region, in power if not in number. All > history is local and specific > in this period, so know WHERE you are > researching.... > > As others have been saying with respect to class and > profession, indirectly > -- let's not export our 'modern' notions of > government back to the 17th > century. The modern nation-state system did not > exist in any real form (in > terms of international law) prior to the peace of > Westphalia (1648), and the > modern notion of the internal state (strong, unitary > central government with > a bureaucratic hierarchy reaching into the > hinterlands) was itself a product > of the turmoil of the 1600s and 1700s, could not be > said to be the norm > prior (IMHO) to the Congress of Vienna, and was > still being contested > (according to some historians) as late as the > revolutions of 1848. > > > > ==== HUGUENOTS-WALLOONS-EUROPE Mailing List ==== > Messages posted to this (or any)list are the > property of their writers. > Therefore, if you want to forward or use info seen > on a mailing list, > first obtain the permission of the person who wrote > it. > > ============================== > Find your ancestors in the Birth, Marriage and Death > Records. > New content added every business day. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13964/rd.ashx > > ___________________________________________________________ Win a BlackBerry device from O2 with Yahoo!. Enter now. http://www.yahoo.co.uk/blackberry

Me again! Further discussion about "patron pescheur". We agree that "pescheur" also means "sinner", but it doesn't make sense in context. What makes more sense is "Head of Fisheries". We are not certain whether this was a royal appointment. Bearing in mind that France was an absolute monarchy during the 17th c., the Roi would not just be the owner of ancestral lands but of territorial waters. However, there's a slight disagreement in this household on how that all operated. Michel believes they operated on a system of royal warrants at the time whereby there were fishmonger(s) which supplied fish and seafood exclusively to the royal household (much as food merchants provide food stuffs non-exclusively to the royal household in the UK today). However, I think because their would have been a Royal Gameskeeper, a Master of Swans, etc., there must have also been someone in charge of procurement of fish and seafood who was an actual member of the Royal household and not just a trade supplier under warrant or seal. These are two opinions on which we would also be interested in other views/clarification. Melissa Roy --- Marcia Bignall <mbignall@mac.com> wrote: > A couple more questions regarding French > terminology; > > One of the 17th century men who originally described > himself as > "ouvrier des monaies du roi" is later termed "le > majeur, patron > pescheur" and sometimes simply "patron." He wasn't > military and as > far as we can tell there wasn't another man with the > same name in the > area, so, can the term "le majeur" indicate has > social class? > > As for "patron pescheur" it seems to translate as > "patron to > fishermen" but I'm not clear on what that would > entail. Can someone > help with this terminology? > > Thanks again, > Marcia > > > ==== HUGUENOTS-WALLOONS-EUROPE Mailing List ==== > Need to unsubscribe but not sure how to do it? > Full instructions are on the list website at: > http://www.island.net/~andreav/unsub.htm. > > ============================== > Jumpstart your genealogy with OneWorldTree. Search > not only for > ancestors, but entire generations. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13972/rd.ashx > > ___________________________________________________________ NEW Yahoo! Cars - sell your car and browse thousands of new and used cars online! http://uk.cars.yahoo.com/