Carolyn and others: << unfortunately all the links on the site are broken. > See the following site for a good summary of the laws during this time period: > http://www.cip.umd.edu/~mddlmddl/791/legal/html/immi1800.html >> The Bureau of Citizenship and Immigration Services (what it's called now--no longer called INS) is at a new address: http://www.immigration.gov/graphics/index.htm Historic information is at: http://www.immigration.gov/graphics/aboutus/history/mar1790.htm Dona Ritchie

Hello Ginni, in pre-1871 Germany you had to apply for citizenship (Bürgerrecht) of a town in order to become a citizen of that town. Usually a man would do so when moving to the town or before marrying and founding a household if his own. Nobody was a citizen (Bürger) of a country in those days. People were subject (Untertan) of their king. What is the "recent citizen" in the original German source? "gewesener Bürger" may indicate the man was already dead when the record was made. Carl ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ginni L. Morey" <glmorey@earthlink.net> To: <HESSE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, August 08, 2003 10:16 PM Subject: [HESSE] Citizen > I'm just getting started in Germany and have found the marriage for my > 4Great Grandparents. It list my grandfather as a recent citizen. What is > the significance of this? Is there a certain age they become citizens? Or > do they become citizens when marrying? > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Ginni Morey from Campbell CA > Santa Clara County Historical & Genealogical Society Web Master: > http://www.rootsweb.com/~cascchgs/ > Personal Home page: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~reinwald > mailto: GLMorey@earthlink.net > > > ==== HESSE Mailing List ==== > Going on Vacation? Longer than 4 days? Go to > http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/intl/DEU/HESSE.html > to unsubscribe > >

I want to thank everyone who helped me understand about the definition of citizen. I am trying to get a better understanding of what their life was like. My 4XGreat grandmother went from being a bride, new mother and a widow in 2 short years. She also watched her father-in-law die months after her husband died. It was a reminder in how short life is. ---------------------------------------------------------------- Ginni Morey from Campbell CA Santa Clara County Historical & Genealogical Society Web Master: http://www.rootsweb.com/~cascchgs/ Personal Home page: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~reinwald mailto: GLMorey@earthlink.net <mailto:GLMorey@earthlink.net> -----Original Message----- From: Carl Becker [mailto:carl@becker-wiesbaden.de] Sent: 09 August, 2003 2:03 AM To: HESSE-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [HESSE] Citizen Hello Ginni, in pre-1871 Germany you had to apply for citizenship (Bürgerrecht) of a town in order to become a citizen of that town. Usually a man would do so when moving to the town or before marrying and founding a household if his own. Nobody was a citizen (Bürger) of a country in those days. People were subject (Untertan) of their king. What is the "recent citizen" in the original German source? "gewesener Bürger" may indicate the man was already dead when the record was made. Carl ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ginni L. Morey" <glmorey@earthlink.net> To: <HESSE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, August 08, 2003 10:16 PM Subject: [HESSE] Citizen > I'm just getting started in Germany and have found the marriage for my > 4Great Grandparents. It list my grandfather as a recent citizen. What is > the significance of this? Is there a certain age they become citizens? Or > do they become citizens when marrying? > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Ginni Morey from Campbell CA > Santa Clara County Historical & Genealogical Society Web Master: > http://www.rootsweb.com/~cascchgs/ > Personal Home page: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~reinwald > mailto: GLMorey@earthlink.net > > > ==== HESSE Mailing List ==== > Going on Vacation? Longer than 4 days? Go to > http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/intl/DEU/HESSE.html > to unsubscribe > > ==== HESSE Mailing List ==== Many towns in Germany have the same name! Add the 5-digit zip code in front of the name! Zip codes explained, http://members.cox.net/hessen/table.htm

Ginni, a) I wrote in reply to your first mail which didn't mention where he was born b) In case he was born there, the expression "recent citizen" makes no sense at all for me c) Things might clear up if you could give us the original German wording, not the translation, which might be faulty. Heinz

No, Ginni. It just means that he has recently moved to the town and is living there now. Think you confused "Citizen of Germany" with "Citizen of Sandlofs". Heinz

I am researching my great-great grandfathers Cornelius HARTUNG and Louis MANTZ. Both of these men migrated to the USA between 1840 and 1860 (Cornelius HARTUNG between 1856 and 1859, and Louis MANTZ sometime between 1840 and 1850). Both of these men would have been born in the 1830's, and I believe would have been of the Lutheran faith. I have found both of them with their wives (also from Germany) and families living in Pittsburgh, PA in the US Census for the years 1850 (for MANTZ only), 1860, 1870 and 1880 (for both). I am new to researching in Germany for ancestors, as well, am hoping that maybe someone out there is also looking for the same surnames. Any information would be greatly appreciated, hints and suggestions welcomed. My goal would be to find out as much as possible concerning these two men, and hopefully their wives families as well. Thanks much in advance. Mike Donahue

In a message dated 8/8/03 1:17:44 PM, glmorey@earthlink.net writes: << I'm just getting started in Germany and have found the marriage for my 4Great Grandparents. It list my grandfather as a recent citizen. What is the significance of this? Is there a certain age they become citizens? Or do they become citizens when marrying? >> Before 1906 the rules about naturalization were different than they are now. Your grandfather would have had to apply for naturalization after a certain period of time in this country, and wait for five years after his entry to obtain it. Marrying a woman who was a citizen of the U.S. at that time made her a non-citizen, and did not help him at all. If your ancestor was a recent citizen, then he'd probably have been in the U.S. for a number of years before his marriage. Unless, of course, the word "citizen" was not referring to his legal status but merely to his residence in the given place. See the following site for a good summary of the laws during this time period: http://www.cip.umd.edu/~mddlmddl/791/legal/html/immi1800.html Dona Ritchie

Now I'm really confused. Heinrich was born in Sandlofs as was his father. I know that he was born in Sandlof because I have his birth registration. So that's why I thought maybe it meant he had reached the age of majority. So what would recent citizen mean in this case???? ---------------------------------------------------------------- Ginni Morey from Campbell CA Santa Clara County Historical & Genealogical Society Web Master: http://www.rootsweb.com/~cascchgs/ Personal Home page: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~reinwald mailto: GLMorey@earthlink.net <mailto:GLMorey@earthlink.net> -----Original Message----- From: 7iron@gmx.de [mailto:7iron@gmx.de] Sent: 08 August, 2003 2:33 PM To: HESSE-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [HESSE] Citizen No, Ginni. It just means that he has recently moved to the town and is living there now. Think you confused "Citizen of Germany" with "Citizen of Sandlofs". Heinz ==== HESSE Mailing List ==== Postal Codes, How to Pay for Research, German Language Letters, Archive Addresses, German Telephone directory, http://members.cox.net/hessen/table.htm

Dona, I should have made it clearer. They were married in Sandlofs, Hesse, Germany in 1830. Heinrich was born there and so was his father. So I am confused as to why he would have become "a recent citizen" according to the marriage registration. Is this the same as reaching the age of majority here? ---------------------------------------------------------------- Ginni Morey from Campbell CA Santa Clara County Historical & Genealogical Society Web Master: http://www.rootsweb.com/~cascchgs/ Personal Home page: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~reinwald mailto: GLMorey@earthlink.net <mailto:GLMorey@earthlink.net> -----Original Message----- From: DonaRitchi@aol.com [mailto:DonaRitchi@aol.com] Sent: 08 August, 2003 1:52 PM To: HESSE-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [HESSE] Citizen In a message dated 8/8/03 1:17:44 PM, glmorey@earthlink.net writes: << I'm just getting started in Germany and have found the marriage for my 4Great Grandparents. It list my grandfather as a recent citizen. What is the significance of this? Is there a certain age they become citizens? Or do they become citizens when marrying? >> Before 1906 the rules about naturalization were different than they are now. Your grandfather would have had to apply for naturalization after a certain period of time in this country, and wait for five years after his entry to obtain it. Marrying a woman who was a citizen of the U.S. at that time made her a non-citizen, and did not help him at all. If your ancestor was a recent citizen, then he'd probably have been in the U.S. for a number of years before his marriage. Unless, of course, the word "citizen" was not referring to his legal status but merely to his residence in the given place. See the following site for a good summary of the laws during this time period: http://www.cip.umd.edu/~mddlmddl/791/legal/html/immi1800.html Dona Ritchie ==== HESSE Mailing List ==== Many towns in Germany have the same name! Add the 5-digit zip code in front of the name! Zip codes explained, http://members.cox.net/hessen/table.htm

I'm just getting started in Germany and have found the marriage for my 4Great Grandparents. It list my grandfather as a recent citizen. What is the significance of this? Is there a certain age they become citizens? Or do they become citizens when marrying? ---------------------------------------------------------------- Ginni Morey from Campbell CA Santa Clara County Historical & Genealogical Society Web Master: http://www.rootsweb.com/~cascchgs/ Personal Home page: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~reinwald mailto: GLMorey@earthlink.net

Hello, can someone tell me any information on the sons' of Johann Friedrich STARCK; Johann Martin, having a PhD in law and ordinary law (Rechte Doctor und Advocat. ordin.), and Johann Jakob, preacher (Prediger) at St. Katharinen in Frankfurt/Main? I believe they were born in Frankfurt am Main about 1730. Thank you, Alan Rossing, Monterey, California, USA

Don Loose <donloose@mac.com> wrote: "I am seeking contact with/about a Christina Dixon, German genealogy researcher for the area in and around Darmstadt, Hessen, Germany. A message to the "aol.com" address posted on the http://members.cox.net/hessen/special.htm website came back as "user unknown". If anyone knows of her current address or other means of contact, please get in touch with me directly." Don, I found one Dixon (no first name) in Darmstadt in the german telephone book online. The listing is: Dixon, Kittlerstr. 45, 64289 Darmstadt. the german telephone book is located at http://www.telefonbuch.de/NSAP Carl in Texas

I am seeking contact with/about a Christina Dixon, German genealogy researcher for the area in and around Darmstadt, Hessen, Germany. A message to the "aol.com" address posted on the http://members.cox.net/hessen/special.htm website came back as "user unknown". If anyone knows of her current address or other means of contact, please get in touch with me directly. Don Loose Warren, Michigan, USA

Ok. Nassau-Weilburg was one of the two Nassau Duchies that existed till they were combined in 1806. The other was Nassau-Dillenburg. (They were differenced by the name of their capital) Groistadt appears to be a misspelling of Grossstadt and intended to mean Country though this is an unusual usage. Dorf is German for Village and Dorf Moran is the village of Moran. So he was a native of the village of Moran in the country of Nassau-Weilburg. Nassau-Weilburg was along the east bank of the Rhine north of the Main river. You will find the city (stadt) of Nassau on the Rhine river. David Rorer ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Barton" <GBarton1@kc.rr.com> To: <HESSE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 10:31 AM Subject: [HESSE] Groistadt Nassaue Weilburg, Dorf Moran > Groistadt Nassaue Weilburg, Dorf Moran. > > I have struggle with this place name for about five years, and still unable > to come up with a good translation. Any help with the German language and > places around 1715 ­ 1740 would be appreciated. I realize these 1804 > spellings may not be correct. > > Johann Gottfried ORWIG (ORBIG, URBICH, URBECH): > The Zion (Red) Lutheran church of Brunswick Township, Schuylkill County, > Pennsylvania, register lists Gottfried's death (a native of Groistadt > Nassaue Weilburg, Dorf Moran) as May 26, 1804 at age 84 years, 9 months, and > 2 days which places his birth date as August 24, 1719. He arrived in America > 1741. > > Thanks for the help, > gary > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > "It's never too late to have a happy childhood." > Still Life With Woodpecker, by Tom Robbins > > > > ==== HESSE Mailing List ==== > Postal Codes, How to Pay for Research, German Language > Letters, Archive Addresses, German Telephone directory, > http://members.cox.net/hessen/table.htm >

Groistadt Nassaue Weilburg, Dorf Moran. I have struggle with this place name for about five years, and still unable to come up with a good translation. Any help with the German language and places around 1715 ­ 1740 would be appreciated. I realize these 1804 spellings may not be correct. Johann Gottfried ORWIG (ORBIG, URBICH, URBECH): The Zion (Red) Lutheran church of Brunswick Township, Schuylkill County, Pennsylvania, register lists Gottfried's death (a native of Groistadt Nassaue Weilburg, Dorf Moran) as May 26, 1804 at age 84 years, 9 months, and 2 days which places his birth date as August 24, 1719. He arrived in America 1741. Thanks for the help, gary --------------------------------------------------------------------- "It's never too late to have a happy childhood." Still Life With Woodpecker, by Tom Robbins

Looking for descendants and ancestors of Nicholas Muller/Mueller/Miller born abt. 1820. Wife, Katherine. Arrived Pittsburg in 1860. Children: Tomas, Francisca and Theresa. On passenger list he says: Native Rodergrund. Those familiar with Hesse, do you think this might be Roedergrund-Egelmes? On census they state they are from Hesse. I am new at my German research. Any help would be appreciated. Lee Smith in Texas

Hello Barb, According to Ernest Thode's "German-English Genealogical Dictionary", Ludovicus is a male given name, a form of Ludwig. Ludwig is a form of Louis or Lewis. Larry ----Original Message---- From: baschr@yahoo.com (Barbara Schroy) Date: Thu, Jul 31, 2003, 11:13am (EDT-3) To: HESSE-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [HESSE] German Given Names I am trying to read LDS files, old German church records. One given name has me stumped. It is in records around 1760's and the name looks like Ludovius or Lectovius maybe. Has anyone ever heard of a first name for a man anything like that in that time period? Barb

I believe that is the Latin Spelling for Ludovika ( Translates to Louise in English) C WEIDEMEYER

In a message dated 7/30/03 2:11:21 PM, mikael@writeme.com writes: << I have an ancestor born 1682 in Riga who is supposed to decend from an old noble family, Winter zu Fronkirchen, probably from the Darmstadt area in Hessen. Does anyone know where on the map Fronkirchen is or were situated? >> There is a Frauenkirchen in Austria. Was this name printed out in a book or elsewhere? If it's a passed-down story, perhaps the name has been corrupted. Places that you perhaps should explore: Fraenkisch Crumbach, east of the city of Darmstadt, in Odenwaldkreis. And, there are a couple of places called Feldkirchen in Bayern. Dona Ritchie

I am trying to read LDS files, old German church records. One given name has me stumped. It is in records around 1760's and the name looks like Ludovius or Lectovius maybe. Has anyone ever heard of a first name for a man anything like that in that time period? Barb --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software