I had sent this message to Gail's private email express, but my experience might help another enthusiastic traveler. Hello Gail: Be careful with cellphone use abroad. Here is my sad tale. Last year, I rented a cellphone at the airport, right across from Hertz where I rented my car. The Hertz agent went with me because my car was not ready. I speak native German, so there were no misunderstandings. The week's rental fee was to be Euro 35. A deposit of Euro 300 would be charged to the contract should I fail to return the equipment. Each domestic call (within Germany) would be 79 cents/minute (Euro-cents, not US cents) and about Euro 1.17/minute for calls to other countries. I made exactly 10 calls within Germany and--having learned the hard way before--kept exact records of the numbers to which I made my calls and for how long they were. Before departing for the USA, I returned the equipment and had the agend initial the place where the equipment return was listed. I also insisted that she put the time of return on the contract next to her initials. As agreed, I would receive a bill for the calls and the week's rental in the US. Yes, the bill arrived, but it was in the amount of Euro 688!! They had charged me for a series of calls to countries which do not even have a country code, and would not acknowledge that these calls had been made from the phone after I had returned it and after my flight had left (I also scanned the boarding passes and sent them via email!) Tthey insisted that I had not returned the equipment. American Express was good and helpful. They credited my account and were willing to have me work on the problem since I speak German and could tell where in Frankfurt the accounting office was. I worked for months with the accountant. They submitted copies of the contract which conveniently left off the time of equipment return and agent's initials. I, on my side, scanned the contracts and sent them as email attachments to Frankfurt and to American Express headquarters for these problems in Florida. Another trick they had up their sleeve was that the cellphone rental place had one name, but the billing was done by another company. It was an ordeal and a half, but after six months or so the accountant over there credited my American Express credit card acct with all but roughly Euro 80 for rental and all 1o calls. You are going to use your own phone, so you will not run into something like this, but be careful all the same. Gisela Meckstroth, Reynoldsburg, OH PS I was born and raised in Germany, emigrated at age 22-1/2 in 1957, and I am not an inexperienced traveler (haved made about 3-4 extensive trips abroad (worldwide) for all those years since then).

In a message dated 7/14/2004 9:09:12 AM Eastern Standard Time, kschilli@hotmail.com writes: Gail wrote: I have not found too much and wanted to see if anyone traveling from another country to Germany, has purchased a SIM card and how it worked. Gail: Have you considered renting a cell phone for your trip. http://www.globalphoneworks.com/ is one suggestion. Regards, Kathleen Folks -- I have AT&T GSM service in the US. I can take it throughout Europe and the former Soviet Union, as well as other parts of the world. No new sims, no rental phones... Cingular does it too. Before that I bought the disposable phones on my trips over. ANy department store/phone kiosk. Werner Saemmler Hindrichs. Attached please find your translation! We hope to have been of service. Please come and visit us at our new facilities at ALS, Inc 8375 West Main Street Marshall, Virginia 20115 540-364-9041 Sincerely, Werner Sämmler-Hindrichs Director of Operations 1-540-627-8881 cell

We rented a satelite Cel phone through our travel agency, one requirement was that you had to rent a full-size car - could have just been the particular rental agency we used. We also took along a global phone card, which was confusing to use, but we were able to make some phone-calls state-side. The cel phone was much easier, however, very expensive. Karen

It is now our turn to go to visit Germany. In early Aug, my husband and I will leave for Hamburg Germany and then travel to Denmark. We have an unlocked GSM cell phone and I tried to research purchasing a SIM card for use while we are in Germany. I have not found too much and wanted to see if anyone traveling from another country to Germany, has purchased a SIM card and how it worked. Thanks, Gail Jorgensen California

Click here: Erbach im Odenwald In a message dated 6/27/2004 7:30:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time, all4lrb@cox.net writes: SEIFERT family came from Erbach. Hi Leslie~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ We were in Erbach back in 1994 and a lady working in the city records was putting family information on index cards. She was able to pull our family cards out for us to see. Erback does have a web site and you should be able to get cintact info there. Go to Google and put the wordErbach in. Good Luck ! Erbach is a beautiful town. If you want a few pictures, contact me off list. Lea in KCMO digging up ROOTS in the Following Trees~~~~~~~~~~~ BLUMFELDER, GERST, MUELLER/MULLER, RIPPER, SIRTAK/CIRTAUTAS, VONDER HAAR

Hello Karen & Heinz, For a discussion of the multitude of meanings for Geschworene go here: http://www.rzuser.uni-heidelberg.de/~cd2/drw/frameset.htm In the Box Suchtext enter "Geschworene" and click on Index. Geschworene will be highlighted; click on Uebersicht. You'll find links to about 12 possible meanings for the word. In general, a Geschworenerer seems to have been an appointed office in connection with a court or with the administration of a manor, town or district, or even a crafts guild. Karen, I'm afraid this doesn't settle the question of what your particular Geschworener actually did, but most likely it was not his "full-time job" (Beruf). Probably similar to the office of small-town councilman or clerk or maybe surveyor as Denise pointed out. Hope this helps. George |-----Original Message----- |From: herero@myrealbox.com [mailto:herero@myrealbox.com] |Sent: Sunday, July 11, 2004 10:40 PM |To: HESSE-L@rootsweb.com |Subject: Re: [HESSE] Occupations - Geschworener | | |OK, Karen | |well understood and a fascinating story. With regard to your |"Geschworener", I would just recommend (as a native German speaker) to |stay with the translation "juror at a court" and consider it a honorary |position and not an occupation. That's all :) | | |Heinz |

----- Original Message ----- From: <herero > As I tried to say: the word "Geschworener" is not meant to be an > occupation. The best way to look at this entrie in the church or other > bokks is to see it as a characterization of the "social position" of a > person. I do understand what your saying - and I am not sure how to read Geschworener as I don't have access to the original source. This information was sent to me by the Stadt in Rodgau and I do not know what they used as a source. All I know is that they have responded to a letter I sent asking them to help me find the family of my grandfathers sister for me. I presume that the information has not come from church records but another source. The reason that I am saying that is that years ago I paid a genealogist to travel to Rodgau and look at the church records for me (they had not been copied by LDS at that point) There are subtle and not so subtle differences in the information sent by the genealogist and that from the Stadt. For example I know that the genealogist gave me christening / baptism dates, yet the information from the Stadt matches the actual birth certificate dates. The information from the Stadt also points out some obvious inconcsistencies at times. But not others that we are aware of - eg on my grandfathers birth certificate it states that he was the second son of his father, yet we cannot find any record, nor is there any family knowledge of another older son. The letter from the Stadt states, translated simply says that they looked at the documents in the archives and worked in co-operation with the Homeland Researcher. So I have no idea what documents. They certainly added information that I doubt would have been in church records eg military information for WW1 and WW2 plus census information and so on. Not every person has an occupation listed, but those that are are. are definitely listed as occupations. There are three family members who have Geschworener listed, a number who were Maurer's (Builder) and a number who were Maurermeister's (master builder), one Leineweber (Linen Weaver), two Lehrer's (Teacher), one Schuster (shoemaker) and one Fabr. Arbeiter. Actually the person listed as Fabr. Arbeiter (Factory worker) was listed on his marriage certificate and his sons birth certificate as a gardener. His death certificate states that he was a labourer. So as I said I have no idea what sources they have used. I do have a book with a very detailed history of Rodgau here and I will read that a little more closely over the next few weeks and see what it says about these ancestors. I do know at this point that at least one of the gentlemen that has his occupation listed as Geschworener was also the Bürgermeister for a number of years. The two people that I asked about Geschworener were native German's. One is 92 and the other 54. (unrelated). The elder person stumbled with a literal translation, she said a person in the court, but was emphatic it was not a judge, "more like a solicitor" but said that even that was not adequate. Its such fun when there is no direct translation :-) At the moment these people are too far back on the family tree for me to be overly concerned, except as a matter of translation and understanding for record keeping. I am one of the odd family researchers who is more interested in finding living relatives. From all accounts my grandfather, even though he was living here in Australia since he was 16, was very close to his family in Germany and his brothers in America (we think thats where they were). A very tragic event broke the connection between Germany and Australia. I am very conscious that because of circumstance his German family were never told what happened here. As I said I wrote to the Stadt asking them to help me locate my grandfathers sisters family and they very generously not only sent me that information but also the family tree back to 1600. They weren't to know that I had already done that part, it was living relatives that I was having trouble with. I am just amazed that they were able to take the two addresses, one in Nieder-Roden and one in Dieburg that I sent them. Addresses that my grandfather had written in a mix of Old German, English, modern German and Latin on a scrap of paper about 1920. Judging from the way that they are scrawled as opposed to his usual very neat and precise hand I would say that they were written in a hurry.And from that identify who these people were to my grandfather, and who the living relatives in Rodgau were now. One family had moved to Frankfurt am Main and apparently they are working on more information regarding living descendents from this branch. They even went to great lengths to explain that my grandfathers sister was not really his "direkt" sister but his "stiefschwester" - step sister. I am totally in awe that the Stadt would do this for me. I sent the request not really expectng a response. Instead they not only answered but went way above and beyond. You may be able to tell me how I can thank them for what they have done. They have sent me no account for the information and I feel so guilty - 10 years ago it cost me over $300 Australian for similar information from a genealogist. There must be some way that I can thank them, even if its to write to their boss?? And for interests sake given the length of my ramblings, I did phone the grandson of my grandfathers sister yesterday and was in luck. His daughter was there and she spoke english. So between my lousy German and her excellent English we were able talk a little and understand each other. Letters are going to go back and forth :-) sadly both his parents have died but apparently there are cousins who will also be able to help. Its been a great weekend!!! A Happy Karen from a cold Australia :-))

In a message dated 7/11/2004 4:06:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time, karens@optushome.com.au writes: As I tried to say: the word "Geschworener" is not meant to be an > occupation. The best way to look at this entrie in the church or other > bokks is to see it as a characterization of the "social position" of a > person. Werner replies: the quote below from is from the Rechtswoerterbuch. Accordingly, and literally translated, Geschworener is the former designation of an honorific adjunct to a Court of Assizes. The concept has been replaced with the concept Schoeffe. Geschworener ist die frühere Bezeichnung eines ehrenamtlichen Beisitzers des Schwurgerichts. Der Begriff wurde ersetzt durch den Begriff Schöffe. Accordingly: Geschworener -- lay assessor Schoeffe -- juror. These are the terms we use at our translation agency as well. What this term is NOT is an indicator of social status. (For the person seeking to use "Stand" as a descriptor. It is an honoris causa position, and has nothing to do with education or social standing. There are also several other translating mistakes in the German. A Maurer is a mason, NOT a builder. There is no dichotomy between the various varieties of laborer, because a factory worker is not considered a skilled labor position for the presumable period of the reference. The recording official was obliged to enter a current occupation. You also mention a scrap of paper written in a mix. "Old German" has not been used anywhere in Germany since Luther published the Bible in the sixteenth century. Frequently, westerners will confuse the Suetterlin script (handwriting) with "old German" even though its a very late change in the cursive script. As far as the collated sources from which the municipal civil registry office is taking its additional information, well into the 1970s such information was cross-referenced by hand in the ledger books of the Civil Registry Office (Standesamt). Hope that helped a little, Werner Saemmler-Hindrichs I do understand what your saying - and I am not sure how to read Geschworener as I don't have access to the original source. This information was sent to me by the Stadt in Rodgau and I do not know what they used as a source. All I know is that they have responded to a letter I sent asking them to help me find the family of my grandfathers sister for me. I presume that the information has not come from church records but another source. The reason that I am saying that is that years ago I paid a genealogist to travel to Rodgau and look at the church records for me (they had not been copied by LDS at that point) There are subtle and not so subtle differences in the information sent by the genealogist and that from the Stadt. For example I know that the genealogist gave me christening / baptism dates, yet the information from the Stadt matches the actual birth certificate dates. The information from the Stadt also points out some obvious inconcsistencies at times. But not others that we are aware of - eg on my grandfathers birth certificate it states that he was the second son of his father, yet we cannot find any record, nor is there any family knowledge of another older son. The letter from the Stadt states, translated simply says that they looked at the documents in the archives and worked in co-operation with the Homeland Researcher. So I have no idea what documents. They certainly added information that I doubt would have been in church records eg military information for WW1 and WW2 plus census information and so on. Not every person has an occupation listed, but those that are are. are definitely listed as occupations. There are three family members who have Geschworener listed, a number who were Maurer's (Builder) and a number who were Maurermeister's (master builder), one Leineweber (Linen Weaver), two Lehrer's (Teacher), one Schuster (shoemaker) and one Fabr. Arbeiter. Actually the person listed as Fabr. Arbeiter (Factory worker) was listed on his marriage certificate and his sons birth certificate as a gardener. His death certificate states that he was a labourer. So as I said I have no idea what sources they have used. I do have a book with a very detailed history of Rodgau here and I will read that a little more closely over the next few weeks and see what it says about these ancestors. I do know at this point that at least one of the gentlemen that has his occupation listed as Geschworener was also the Bürgermeister for a number of years. The two people that I asked about Geschworener were native German's. One is 92 and the other 54. (unrelated). The elder person stumbled with a literal translation, she said a person in the court, but was emphatic it was not a judge, "more like a solicitor" but said that even that was not adequate. Its such fun when there is no direct translation :-) At the moment these people are too far back on the family tree for me to be overly concerned, except as a matter of translation and understanding for record keeping. I am one of the odd family researchers who is more interested in finding living relatives. From all accounts my grandfather, even though he was living here in Australia since he was 16, was very close to his family in Germany and his brothers in America (we think thats where they were). A very tragic event broke the connection between Germany and Australia. I am very conscious that because of circumstance his German family were never told what happened here. As I said I wrote to the Stadt asking them to help me locate my grandfathers sisters family and they very generously not only sent me that information but also the family tree back to 1600. They weren't to know that I had already done that part, it was living relatives that I was having trouble with. I am just amazed that they were able to take the two addresses, one in Nieder-Roden and one in Dieburg that I sent them. Addresses that my grandfather had written in a mix of Old German, English, modern German and Latin on a scrap of paper about 1920. Judging from the way that they are scrawled as opposed to his usual very neat and precise hand I would say that they were written in a hurry.And from that identify who these people were to my grandfather, and who the living relatives in Rodgau were now. One family had moved to Frankfurt am Main and apparently they are working on more information regarding living descendents from this branch. They even went to great lengths to explain that my grandfathers sister was not really his "direkt" sister but his "stiefschwester" - step sister. I am totally in awe that the Stadt would do this for me. I sent the request not really expectng a response. Instead they not only answered but went way above and beyond. You may be able to tell me how I can thank them for what they have done. They have sent me no account for the information and I feel so guilty - 10 years ago it cost me over $300 Australian for similar information from a genealogist. There must be some way that I can thank them, even if its to write to their boss?? And for interests sake given the length of my ramblings, I did phone the grandson of my grandfathers sister yesterday and was in luck. His daughter was there and she spoke english. So between my lousy German and her excellent English we were able talk a little and understand each other. Letters are going to go back and forth :-) sadly both his parents have died but apparently there are cousins who will also be able to help.

----- Original Message ----- From: <herero > No, it would never mean judge, not even in the 1700s. It would always > mean juror. I think you are well advised to not consider it an > occupation but a honorary title, which was quite often added to the > occupation. Thankyou so much Heinz. I did some checking and apparently the closest occupation in terms that we can understand in modern day is a lawyer. Karen Schüler Sydney, Australia

OK, Karen well understood and a fascinating story. With regard to your "Geschworener", I would just recommend (as a native German speaker) to stay with the translation "juror at a court" and consider it a honorary position and not an occupation. That's all :) Heinz

<<I did some checking and apparently the closest occupation in terms that we can understand in modern day is a lawyer>> Sorry, Karen. This is totally wrong. As I tried to say: the word "Geschworener" is not meant to be an occupation. The best way to look at this entrie in the church or other bokks is to see it as a characterization of the "social position" of a person. In German the correct word would be "Stand" for which there is unfortunately no adequate translation into English. But if you really want to see your ancestor as a "lawyer", it's up to you. :) Heinz

<<I came across the occupation of "Feldgeschworener." It seems that these men checked the boundaries of the fields and settled boundary disputes to make sure no one was plowing a tract of land that actually belonged to someone else.>> Very true. But it would be wrong to believe that this was an "occupation" in the present sense of this word (German: "Beruf"). If one would look up the original sources, I think it would never say "Beruf" anywhere. Example: There are many entries that say "Hausbesitzer" = house owner. Or: "Bauer und Schiedsmann" = farmer and arbitrator. And so on. In other words: these characterizations were used to show the "status" of person with regard to both, his "real" occupation and his other merits and activities. Heinz

To add my two cent's worth: In my readings about the town where many of my Bavarian ancestors came from, I came across the occupation of "Feldgeschworener." It seems that these men checked the boundaries of the fields and settled boundary disputes to make sure no one was plowing a tract of land that actually belonged to someone else. There were no fences, just stones marking where one property started and someone else's ended. Denise

With regards to abbreviations in German genealogy transcripts- does anyone know what cop. is? I think it is referring to marriage but I am not sure Also u and ua. For example against my great grandfather they have his first wife listed and after her name are the initials u.a. Specifically Fides Fuller u.a. The only thing "odd" that I know about this marriage is that maybe she was married after the birth of her son - its hard to tell as this marriage and birth occur in the year that the calendars changed. Also she may have been a Jewess and her husband was definitely a Roman Catholic. This information has come from the Stadt in Rodgau whereas she was married in Frankfurt am Main. (hence Rodgau did not give me a marriage date but I have a copy of their marriage certificate from the Stadt in Frankfurt a.m.) and in the same block, next to my great grandfathers sisters they have put the men they married but I do not think the names are complete one reads Christian Ott V and the other Jakob Schrod V The roman numerals (and I am guessing that the V is a roman numeral) appear after other names and I know them to be the first, second, third with that name. It appears to be in those situations where they adopted the family christian name eg 6 sons with the name Anthon or Johannes and so on. But I am sure that the Ott and Schrod are also contractions/ abbreviations - but for what? And the final abbreviation is um - I am guessing that is the equivalent of our "about" "after" or "before" when we don't know an exact date. None of those go to a direct translation of um that I can see. Any thoughts and help would be greatly appreciated!! Many Thanks Keep Looking For Rainbows!! _--_|\ /Karen \ \ _.--._ / v Karen http://members.optushome.com.au/karens

Hi Karen - my latin is not great, but I'm learning. In my own research, marriages are given the latin title "copulati" and I might guess that "cop" is an abbreviation of that. Sorry I can't help with the others, Anita

In this information sent to me by the researcher in Stadt they have included occupations. One of those occupations listed for an ancestor (born in the late 1600's) is Geschworener. I know that literally translated it means juror. I am wondering what it would actually mean as an occupation in the early 1700's. A judge? Does anyone have any thoughts? Keep Looking For Rainbows!! _--_|\ /Karen \ \ _.--._ / v Karen http://members.optushome.com.au/karens

No, it would never mean judge, not even in the 1700s. It would always mean juror. I think you are well advised to not consider it an occupation but a honorary title, which was quite often added to the occupation. Heinz

----- Original Message ----- From: <DonaRitchi@aol.com> To: <HESSE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 5:57 PM Subject: Re: [HESSE] Query re Wattenheim, etc. > In a message dated 7/8/04 12:40:49 PM, PROSK@aol.com writes: > > << I have some genealogical workpapers that refer to: > 1. Wattenheim, Lampertheim, Hessen > 2. Wattenheim, Bensheim, Hessen > > Can anyone tell me if these are the same villages and, if so, why the > references to Lampertheim and Bensheim are used? > > Also, the same papers have a reference to "Bechtolsheim, O, Hessen." Can > anyone suggest to what the "O" refers. >> > > There is a Wattenheim in Kreis Bergstrasse, just west of Biblis. Lampertheim, > also in Kreis Bergstrasse, is about 6 miles south of Biblis. So, I'd guess > they're talking about the same village. However, another Wattenheim is in Kreis > Bad Dürkheim, Rheinland-Pfalz, not too far west of these places in Hessen. > > Bechtolsheim in is Kreis Alzey, Rheinland-Pfalz now. If this paper is > referring to a time when this area was Rhein-Hessen, that may be another clue that > the Wattenheim is the place in Kreis Bad Dürkheim. > > Dona Ritchie > Rhein-Hessen the province of Hesse-Darmstadt that was west of the Rhine River, now part of the state of Rheinland-Pfalz

> Also, the same papers have a reference to "Bechtolsheim, O, Hessen." Can > anyone suggest to what the "O" refers. > Oberhessen, the province of Hesse-Darmstadt north of the Main River

Look up the English word "Juror" in the German-English dictionary. The last definition is that of Juryman = Geschworener. Possibly an officer of the law courts? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Karen" <karens@optushome.com.au> To: <HESSE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, July 10, 2004 4:38 PM Subject: [HESSE] Occupations - Geschworener > In this information sent to me by the researcher in Stadt they have included occupations. One of those occupations listed for an ancestor (born in the late 1600's) is Geschworener. I know that literally translated it means juror. I am wondering what it would actually mean as an occupation in the early 1700's. A judge? > > Does anyone have any thoughts? > > Keep Looking For Rainbows!! > _--_|\ > /Karen \ > \ _.--._ / > v Karen > http://members.optushome.com.au/karens > > > ==== HESSE Mailing List ==== > Many towns in Germany have the same name! Add the 5-digit > zip code in front of the name! Zip codes explained, > http://members.cox.net/hessen/table.htm >