Nancy, Using Google Earth I found a location called Loritz just south of the city of Darmstadt near Seeheim. I took a look at the census and see that his wife lists that she is from Kleinhausen. I've not found that in Hesse-Darmstadt either. Joel http://www.rafert.org/home At 04:17 PM 2/24/2009, you wrote: >1860 Census - St. Louis, MO lists Peter Anton SCHACHNER - place of birth >"Loritz" Darmstadt and in his naturalization paper (1848) he renounces his >allegiance to "the Grand Duke of Hesse Darmstadt". > >I'm trying to figure out where this is. There is a Loritz in Wurt. but >that's not in Hessen. > >Nancy > > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Thierry Dietrich" <[email protected]> >To: <[email protected]> >Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 3:36 PM >Subject: Re: [HESSE] Need help with symbols in Familienbuch > > >lat. indeed stands for latin. :-) > >Dr. Thierry P. Dietrich >Bartholomäus-Arnoldi-Straße 22 >D-61250 Usingen > > > > >________________________________ >Von: Cindy Phipps <[email protected]> >An: [email protected] >Gesendet: Dienstag, den 24. Februar 2009, 15:02:27 Uhr >Betreff: Re: [HESSE] Need help with symbols in Familienbuch > >Dr. Dietrich, > >in the second group of translations you provided, what does "lat." mean? >Thank you! > >CindyPhipps > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Thierry Dietrich" <[email protected]> >To: <[email protected]> >Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 3:50 PM >Subject: Re: [HESSE] Need help with symbols in Familienbuch > > >* = Birth >~ = Baptisation (?) not sure what the english term is for that... >oo = marriage >Ioo = first marriage >IIoo = second marriage >square (rectangle) = funeral >cross = death > >Actually most are quite logic, common conventions, easy to learn and very >helpful in lists when only followed by the according date. > >morti = lat. dead (singular, genetivum) >sepulti = lat. buried (singular, genetivum) >prolis = lat. offspring, scion (singular, genetivum) >viduus = lat. widower > > >Hope that helps. > >Regards, > >Thierry > >Dr. Thierry P. Dietrich > >D-61250 Usingen > > > > >________________________________ >Von: RAL1 <[email protected]> >An: [email protected] >Gesendet: Montag, den 23. Februar 2009, 21:36:42 Uhr >Betreff: [HESSE] Need help with symbols in Familienbuch > >Can someone please tell me what these symbols mean: > >*/~, oo, cross/square, Ioo, IIoo. Also the words "viduus, viduus ex, >morti/sepulti prolis. > >Thanks, Bob Lohmar > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >[email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in >the subject and the body of the message > > > > > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >[email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in >the subject and the body of the message > > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >[email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in >the subject and the body of the message > > > > > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >[email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in >the subject and the body of the message > > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an >email to [email protected] with the >word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the >subject and the body of the message

1860 Census - St. Louis, MO lists Peter Anton SCHACHNER - place of birth "Loritz" Darmstadt and in his naturalization paper (1848) he renounces his allegiance to "the Grand Duke of Hesse Darmstadt". I'm trying to figure out where this is. There is a Loritz in Wurt. but that's not in Hessen. Nancy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Thierry Dietrich" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 3:36 PM Subject: Re: [HESSE] Need help with symbols in Familienbuch lat. indeed stands for latin. :-) Dr. Thierry P. Dietrich Bartholomäus-Arnoldi-Straße 22 D-61250 Usingen ________________________________ Von: Cindy Phipps <[email protected]> An: [email protected] Gesendet: Dienstag, den 24. Februar 2009, 15:02:27 Uhr Betreff: Re: [HESSE] Need help with symbols in Familienbuch Dr. Dietrich, in the second group of translations you provided, what does "lat." mean? Thank you! CindyPhipps ----- Original Message ----- From: "Thierry Dietrich" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 3:50 PM Subject: Re: [HESSE] Need help with symbols in Familienbuch * = Birth ~ = Baptisation (?) not sure what the english term is for that... oo = marriage Ioo = first marriage IIoo = second marriage square (rectangle) = funeral cross = death Actually most are quite logic, common conventions, easy to learn and very helpful in lists when only followed by the according date. morti = lat. dead (singular, genetivum) sepulti = lat. buried (singular, genetivum) prolis = lat. offspring, scion (singular, genetivum) viduus = lat. widower Hope that helps. Regards, Thierry Dr. Thierry P. Dietrich D-61250 Usingen ________________________________ Von: RAL1 <[email protected]> An: [email protected] Gesendet: Montag, den 23. Februar 2009, 21:36:42 Uhr Betreff: [HESSE] Need help with symbols in Familienbuch Can someone please tell me what these symbols mean: */~, oo, cross/square, Ioo, IIoo. Also the words "viduus, viduus ex, morti/sepulti prolis. Thanks, Bob Lohmar ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Latin. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cindy Phipps" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 9:02 AM Subject: Re: [HESSE] Need help with symbols in Familienbuch > Dr. Dietrich, > > in the second group of translations you provided, what does "lat." mean? > Thank you! > > CindyPhipps > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Thierry Dietrich" <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 3:50 PM > Subject: Re: [HESSE] Need help with symbols in Familienbuch > > > * = Birth > ~ = Baptisation (?) not sure what the english term is for that... > oo = marriage > Ioo = first marriage > IIoo = second marriage > square (rectangle) = funeral > cross = death > > Actually most are quite logic, common conventions, easy to learn and very > helpful in lists when only followed by the according date. > > morti = lat. dead (singular, genetivum) > sepulti = lat. buried (singular, genetivum) > prolis = lat. offspring, scion (singular, genetivum) > viduus = lat. widower > > > Hope that helps. > > Regards, > > Thierry > > Dr. Thierry P. Dietrich > > D-61250 Usingen > > > > > ________________________________ > Von: RAL1 <[email protected]> > An: [email protected] > Gesendet: Montag, den 23. Februar 2009, 21:36:42 Uhr > Betreff: [HESSE] Need help with symbols in Familienbuch > > Can someone please tell me what these symbols mean: > > */~, oo, cross/square, Ioo, IIoo. Also the words "viduus, viduus ex, > morti/sepulti prolis. > > Thanks, Bob Lohmar > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in > the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in > the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Bob, "viduus"= "widower" (and "vidua" = "widow"). You encounter these words often in marriage records. You also see "adolescens" = "young person" for the groom, translated "bachelor" in English records, and "virgo" = "virgin" for the bride, translated "spinster" in English records. "viduus ex" = "widower from" ... and the next word should tell you where he is from "morti" is a variant on "mortuus" = "died" or dead; "sepulti" is a variant on "sepultus" = "buried" "prolis" come from "proles", meaning "descendant" -- exact meaning depends on the words around it, because it could be accusative or gentive (possessive) depending on context. "X" can often mean "Christ-" as in "Xtianus" = "Christian" (the name) or "Xtina" = "Christina". OK, the X abbreviates only the Chris bit of the word. It is really the Greek letter chi, first letter in "Christ" which we use in "Xmas". Unfortunately, I would have to see the symbols and their context to be able to have a stab at those. Thomas. ----- Original Message ----- From: "RAL1" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 7:36 AM Subject: [HESSE] Need help with symbols in Familienbuch > Can someone please tell me what these symbols mean: > > */~, oo, cross/square, Ioo, IIoo. Also the words "viduus, viduus ex, > morti/sepulti prolis. > > Thanks, Bob Lohmar > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > >

Dr. Dietrich, in the second group of translations you provided, what does "lat." mean? Thank you! CindyPhipps ----- Original Message ----- From: "Thierry Dietrich" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 3:50 PM Subject: Re: [HESSE] Need help with symbols in Familienbuch * = Birth ~ = Baptisation (?) not sure what the english term is for that... oo = marriage Ioo = first marriage IIoo = second marriage square (rectangle) = funeral cross = death Actually most are quite logic, common conventions, easy to learn and very helpful in lists when only followed by the according date. morti = lat. dead (singular, genetivum) sepulti = lat. buried (singular, genetivum) prolis = lat. offspring, scion (singular, genetivum) viduus = lat. widower Hope that helps. Regards, Thierry Dr. Thierry P. Dietrich D-61250 Usingen ________________________________ Von: RAL1 <[email protected]> An: [email protected] Gesendet: Montag, den 23. Februar 2009, 21:36:42 Uhr Betreff: [HESSE] Need help with symbols in Familienbuch Can someone please tell me what these symbols mean: */~, oo, cross/square, Ioo, IIoo. Also the words "viduus, viduus ex, morti/sepulti prolis. Thanks, Bob Lohmar ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

* = Birth ~ = Baptisation (?) not sure what the english term is for that... oo = marriage Ioo = first marriage IIoo = second marriage square (rectangle) = funeral cross = death Actually most are quite logic, common conventions, easy to learn and very helpful in lists when only followed by the according date. morti = lat. dead (singular, genetivum) sepulti = lat. buried (singular, genetivum) prolis = lat. offspring, scion (singular, genetivum) viduus = lat. widower Hope that helps. Regards, Thierry   Dr. Thierry P. Dietrich D-61250 Usingen ________________________________ Von: RAL1 <[email protected]> An: [email protected] Gesendet: Montag, den 23. Februar 2009, 21:36:42 Uhr Betreff: [HESSE] Need help with symbols in Familienbuch Can someone please tell me what these symbols mean: */~, oo, cross/square, Ioo, IIoo. Also the words "viduus, viduus ex, morti/sepulti prolis. Thanks, Bob Lohmar ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

In a message dated 2/23/2009 3:37:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, [email protected] writes: > Can someone please tell me what these symbols mean: > > */~, oo, cross/square, Ioo, IIoo. Also the words "viduus, viduus ex, > morti/sepulti prolis. > > Thanks, Bob Lohmar HI, * = born ~ = baptized 00 = married I 00 = first marriage ll 00 = second + = died [] = burried "viduus = widow/er viduus ex = widow of morti/sepulti prolis = ?? * 5/12 = born 5 Dec ... *~ 5-6/12 = born on fifth, baptized on the 6th Jim ************** A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1218822736x1201267884/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fwww.freecreditreport.com%2Fpm%2Fdefault.aspx%3Fsc%3D668072%26hmp gID%3D62%26bcd%3DfebemailfooterNO62)

*??? date of birth ~?? date of baptism +?? date of death I.oo? date of first marriage II.oo date of second marriage Can't help you with the Latin -----Original Message----- From: RAL1 <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 2:36 pm Subject: [HESSE] Need help with symbols in Familienbuch Can someone please tell me what these symbols mean: */~, oo, cross/square, Ioo, IIoo. Also the words "viduus, viduus ex, morti/sepulti prolis. Thanks, Bob Lohmar ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Bob, As I understand them in my research...... * = born oo = married l oo = I'm thinking this is 1st marriage ll oo = is probably 2nd marriage + = died viduus = Latin term that means "widower", vidua is "widow" viduus ex = ex is latin for from, not sure but I think is is "widower of" morti = mortis in Latin is "death" sepulti = sepultus in Latin is "buried" prolis = proles in Latin is "issue" (as in child) I'm other will correct me if I'm wrong. :) Joel http://www.rafert.org/home At 03:36 PM 2/23/2009, RAL1 wrote: >Can someone please tell me what these symbols mean: > >*/~, oo, cross/square, Ioo, IIoo. Also the words "viduus, viduus ex, >morti/sepulti prolis. > >Thanks, Bob Lohmar > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >[email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >quotes in the subject and the body of the message

go to http://en.wiki.genealogy.net/index.php/Abbreviations---or-Google Abkürzungen in aelteren Dokumenten (1) --- On Mon, 2/23/09, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote: > From: [email protected] <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [HESSE] symbols in Familienbuch > To: [email protected], [email protected] > Date: Monday, February 23, 2009, 4:52 PM > In a message dated 2/23/2009 3:37:13 PM Eastern Standard > Time, > [email protected] writes: > > > Can someone please tell me what these symbols mean: > > > > */~, oo, cross/square, Ioo, IIoo. Also the words > "viduus, viduus ex, > > morti/sepulti prolis. > > > > Thanks, Bob Lohmar > > HI, > * = born > ~ = baptized > 00 = married > I 00 = first marriage > ll 00 = second > + = died > [] = burried > "viduus = widow/er > viduus ex = widow of > morti/sepulti prolis = ?? > * 5/12 = born 5 Dec ... > *~ 5-6/12 = born on fifth, baptized on the 6th > > Jim > > > ************** > A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 > easy steps! > (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1218822736x1201267884/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fwww.freecreditreport.com%2Fpm%2Fdefault.aspx%3Fsc%3D668072%26hmp > gID%3D62%26bcd%3DfebemailfooterNO62) > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and > the body of the message

Can someone please tell me what these symbols mean: */~, oo, cross/square, Ioo, IIoo. Also the words "viduus, viduus ex, morti/sepulti prolis. Thanks, Bob Lohmar

I don't need a translator, as I am German.  ;-) It means: "And WHEN will I get your ancestors list, may be you can provide me with a Gedcom file?" Good luck, Thierry   Dr. Thierry P. Dietrich D-61250 Usingen ________________________________ Von: Pam G <[email protected]> An: [email protected] Gesendet: Montag, den 23. Februar 2009, 03:03:05 Uhr Betreff: Re: [HESSE] one sentence German help? Hello, I was sent this and would appreciate help with some clarification from the crazy machine translation I got: Is this person asking me to send them a GEDCOM, and are they asking if I want one from them?  And if they want one from me, would something from Family Tree Maker suffice?  (So a one sentence reply to this back in German would be helpful as well. .??  Thank you so much for any help. Sincerely, Pam Und WANN bekomme ich Deine Ahnenliste, vielleicht sogar als Gedcom ??? ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hello, the person is asking you if you can send your ancestor list, preferably in gedcom format? -Eckhard In einer eMail vom 2009-02-23 03:03:44 Westeuropäische Normalzeit schreibt [email protected]: Hello, I was sent this and would appreciate help with some clarification from the crazy machine translation I got: Is this person asking me to send them a GEDCOM, and are they asking if I want one from them? And if they want one from me, would something from Family Tree Maker suffice? (So a one sentence reply to this back in German would be helpful as well. .?? Thank you so much for any help. Sincerely, Pam Und WANN bekomme ich Deine Ahnenliste, vielleicht sogar als Gedcom ??? ___________________________________________ No work, no skills, just sit back and relax, and earn: http://www.wbwso.com/?ref=ehensel21

According to the google translater http://translate.google.com/translate_t?hl=en# they are asking when the get your gedcom, Yes the gedcom file you have will be fine. --- On Sun, 2/22/09, Pam G <[email protected]> wrote: From: Pam G <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [HESSE] one sentence German help? To: [email protected] Date: Sunday, February 22, 2009, 9:03 PM Hello, I was sent this and would appreciate help with some clarification from the crazy machine translation I got: Is this person asking me to send them a GEDCOM, and are they asking if I want one from them? And if they want one from me, would something from Family Tree Maker suffice? (So a one sentence reply to this back in German would be helpful as well. .?? Thank you so much for any help. Sincerely, Pam Und WANN bekomme ich Deine Ahnenliste, vielleicht sogar als Gedcom ??? ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hello, I was sent this and would appreciate help with some clarification from the crazy machine translation I got: Is this person asking me to send them a GEDCOM, and are they asking if I want one from them? And if they want one from me, would something from Family Tree Maker suffice? (So a one sentence reply to this back in German would be helpful as well. .?? Thank you so much for any help. Sincerely, Pam Und WANN bekomme ich Deine Ahnenliste, vielleicht sogar als Gedcom ???

Thanks, Thierry. Both father (Nicholas) and son (Jakob) were boatmen. Only the father, Nicholas, was referred to (twice) as "ordinari(us)". I have found Jakob's occupation in two records that I didn't cite because he was not referred to as "ordinarius". By the way, I looked up "ordinary" in the "Cabinet of Catholic Information", a very old book, the contents of which would surprise most Catholics under the age of 50. In the Catholic Church -- these were Catholic records, hence in Latin -- "Ordinarius" refers to a bishop. It may have to do with bishops being able to carry out ordination of priests Thomas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Thierry Dietrich" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2009 8:43 PM Subject: Re: [HESSE] strange words As far as I remember your quotes it was not the boatman who was teacher, but his father. I may be wrong but you may like to check this back in your source text. Good luck & cheers, Thierry Dr. Thierry P. Dietrich D-61250 Usingen ________________________________ Von: Thomas Burton <[email protected]> An: [email protected] Gesendet: Freitag, den 20. Februar 2009, 21:32:07 Uhr Betreff: Re: [HESSE] strange words Thank you, Thierry, The words you give for "senator" are good clues. The "ordinarius" ... hmmm. I cannot imagine that these boatmen moonlighted as schoolteachers, and if they were clerics, it was very naughty of them to father children. If they had any non-priestly function in the Church, I would imagine that their records would be a little more elaborate. We shall be visiting my ancestral lands later in the year. Thank you for your advice and good wishes. Thomas. Dr Thomas C Burton Mandurang, Victoria Australia ----- Original Message ----- From: "Thierry Dietrich" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 7:11 PM Subject: Re: [HESSE] strange words Hello Thomas. In some katholic regions "senator" was used for german functions such as "Schöffe" or (if the person was a professional soldier) for "Offizier". Sometimes in some regions it also may refer to "Ratsherr" or "Ältester". "Ordinarius" may signify a clerical position in the church, but may also signify the person bearing this title was a teacher at a somewhat special or higher school. Whoever speaks german or is able to manage german books I strongly recommend: E. Habel/F. Gröbel, "Mittellateinisches Glossar", ISBN 3-8252-1551-2 This latin-german dictionary is NOT refering to the old latin language, but is reflecting the use of the mediaval and clerical latin such as in church records genealogist are dealing with. I also recommend: Johann Heinrich Barth, "Genealogische-Etymologisches Lexikon - Band 1 Deutsch", ISBN 3-937504-15-X Which bears a wealth of knowledge regarding genealogy (more than 27.000 terms), including "senator" and "ordinarius" for instance. Both books may be found on Amazon, also look for used books which often are much cheeper and are absolutely fine for use as frequently used reference books. Good luck towards the other side of the ocean to all genealogists interested in where their roots are. :-) Best regards from good old Germany (I live in the former residencial city of the dynasty of the first duke of Nassau, in Usingen; the duchy of Nassau also being my primary area of interest in genealogy), Thierry Dr. Thierry P. Dietrich D-61250 Usingen ________________________________ Von: Thomas Burton <[email protected]> An: Hesse <[email protected]> Gesendet: Freitag, den 20. Februar 2009, 01:28:54 Uhr Betreff: [HESSE] strange words Hello, I have recently "found" parish records of some forebears in Winkel, Rheingaukreis, and the records contain some not very strange Latin words in strange contexts, and I wonder if anyone know why they are used. The two words are variants of "ordinarius" and "senator". They are being used in some technical or local sense as in these extracts dating from 1685 to 1705. but I have not been able to find anything in dictionaries on paper or on the web that makes sense of them: Joes Jacobus Klüppel Nicholai Klippel nautae olim nostri(?) ordinarii filius relictus Sepult Nicholaus Klüppel nauta ordinarius sacri provisi pm quinquagenaris maioris Anna Catharina D. Conradi Henneman Senatoris Maria Catherina Christiani Ochsenkopf Senatoris huiatis filia (Capitals and spellings as in the originals of these snippets; the word "nostri" is a guess -- certainly "nost-something"; "Joes" is abbrev of "Joannes", "sepult" of "sepultus" = buried; "Klippel" had two versions; Latin in records was often ungrammatical.) "Ordinarius" appears to go with "nauta" (which, despite its feminine ending is a masculine word), but that may be coincidence. Why would a boatman on the Rhine be described as ordinary in church documents? Can anybody help? Thank you, Thomas. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I see. Pls take care, although ordinarius indeed may refer to a bishop, this word is NOT as narrowly defined in general. It may also refer to other clerical positions below a bishop and as I said in my message, also may refer to a teacher as well. For this very special entry I don't believe bishop would be possible. Not only he wouldn't have children as a catholic bishop, he certainly would not have a 2nd profession as boatman nor would he live in that little town, but rather in Mainz. Bishop certainly is the wrong translation. Pls note words are not always that precise, this also counts for latin words. And actually the use of words may even have regional differentiation which only a local hictorican may be able to say. If you want to be sure, then more entries of the church records and other types of records should be checked in the closer surroundings of the town you are searching in. All citations of this profession then should be analysed and only then you would know what exactly may be meant. Btw, depending on the profession there might be more sources you may like to consult, such as court records for instance. Best regards, Thierry   Dr. Thierry P. Dietrich D-61250 Usingen ________________________________ Von: Thomas Burton <[email protected]> An: [email protected] Gesendet: Sonntag, den 22. Februar 2009, 00:21:14 Uhr Betreff: Re: [HESSE] strange words Thanks, Thierry. Both father (Nicholas) and son (Jakob) were boatmen.  Only the father, Nicholas, was referred to (twice) as "ordinari(us)".  I have found Jakob's occupation in two records that I didn't cite because he was not referred to as "ordinarius". By the way, I looked up "ordinary" in the "Cabinet of Catholic Information", a very old book, the contents of which would surprise most Catholics under the age of 50.  In the Catholic Church -- these were Catholic records, hence in Latin -- "Ordinarius" refers to a bishop.  It may have to do with bishops being able to carry out ordination of priests Thomas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Thierry Dietrich" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2009 8:43 PM Subject: Re: [HESSE] strange words As far as I remember your quotes it was not the boatman who was teacher, but his father. I may be wrong but you may like to check this back in your source text. Good luck & cheers, Thierry Dr. Thierry P. Dietrich D-61250 Usingen ________________________________ Von: Thomas Burton <[email protected]> An: [email protected] Gesendet: Freitag, den 20. Februar 2009, 21:32:07 Uhr Betreff: Re: [HESSE] strange words Thank you, Thierry, The words you give for "senator" are good clues. The "ordinarius" ... hmmm. I cannot imagine that these boatmen moonlighted as schoolteachers, and if they were clerics, it was very naughty of them to father children. If they had any non-priestly function in the Church, I would imagine that their records would be a little more elaborate. We shall be visiting my ancestral lands later in the year. Thank you for your advice and good wishes. Thomas. Dr Thomas C Burton Mandurang, Victoria Australia ----- Original Message ----- From: "Thierry Dietrich" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 7:11 PM Subject: Re: [HESSE] strange words Hello Thomas. In some katholic regions "senator" was used for german functions such as "Schöffe" or (if the person was a professional soldier) for "Offizier". Sometimes in some regions it also may refer to "Ratsherr" or "Ältester". "Ordinarius" may signify a clerical position in the church, but may also signify the person bearing this title was a teacher at a somewhat special or higher school. Whoever speaks german or is able to manage german books I strongly recommend: E. Habel/F. Gröbel, "Mittellateinisches Glossar", ISBN 3-8252-1551-2 This latin-german dictionary is NOT refering to the old latin language, but is reflecting the use of the mediaval and clerical latin such as in church records genealogist are dealing with. I also recommend: Johann Heinrich Barth, "Genealogische-Etymologisches Lexikon - Band 1 Deutsch", ISBN 3-937504-15-X Which bears a wealth of knowledge regarding genealogy (more than 27.000 terms), including "senator" and "ordinarius" for instance. Both books may be found on Amazon, also look for used books which often are much cheeper and are absolutely fine for use as frequently used reference books. Good luck towards the other side of the ocean to all genealogists interested in where their roots are. :-) Best regards from good old Germany (I live in the former residencial city of the dynasty of the first duke of Nassau, in Usingen; the duchy of Nassau also being my primary area of interest in genealogy), Thierry Dr. Thierry P. Dietrich D-61250 Usingen ________________________________ Von: Thomas Burton <[email protected]> An: Hesse <[email protected]> Gesendet: Freitag, den 20. Februar 2009, 01:28:54 Uhr Betreff: [HESSE] strange words Hello, I have recently "found" parish records of some forebears in Winkel, Rheingaukreis, and the records contain some not very strange Latin words in strange contexts, and I wonder if anyone know why they are used. The two words are variants of "ordinarius" and "senator". They are being used in some technical or local sense as in these extracts dating from 1685 to 1705. but I have not been able to find anything in dictionaries on paper or on the web that makes sense of them: Joes Jacobus Klüppel Nicholai Klippel nautae olim nostri(?) ordinarii filius relictus Sepult Nicholaus Klüppel nauta ordinarius sacri provisi pm quinquagenaris maioris Anna Catharina D. Conradi Henneman Senatoris Maria Catherina Christiani Ochsenkopf Senatoris huiatis filia (Capitals and spellings as in the originals of these snippets; the word "nostri" is a guess -- certainly "nost-something"; "Joes" is abbrev of "Joannes", "sepult" of "sepultus" = buried; "Klippel" had two versions; Latin in records was often ungrammatical.) "Ordinarius" appears to go with "nauta" (which, despite its feminine ending is a masculine word), but that may be coincidence. Why would a boatman on the Rhine be described as ordinary in church documents? Can anybody help? Thank you, Thomas. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Bonjour, Je viens (enfin !) de me décider à mettre à jour mes données généalogiques sur mon site. Il n’y avait aucune information nouvelle depuis 2006 :( Je vous encourage donc à aller y faire un petit tour, tout en espérant que vous y trouverez votre bonheur ! N’hésitez pas non plus à me retourner toute correction ou information utiles. Bonne lecture, -- Amicalement, Olivier. ########### Site : http://olaroche.club.fr/index.html

As far as I remember your quotes it was not the boatman who was teacher, but his father. I may be wrong but you may like to check this back in your source text. Good luck & cheers, Thierry   Dr. Thierry P. Dietrich D-61250 Usingen ________________________________ Von: Thomas Burton <[email protected]> An: [email protected] Gesendet: Freitag, den 20. Februar 2009, 21:32:07 Uhr Betreff: Re: [HESSE] strange words Thank you, Thierry, The words you give for "senator" are good clues.  The "ordinarius" ... hmmm. I cannot imagine that these boatmen moonlighted as schoolteachers, and if they were clerics, it was very naughty of them to father children.  If they had any non-priestly function in the Church, I would imagine that their records would be a little more elaborate. We shall be visiting my ancestral lands later in the year.  Thank you for your advice and good wishes. Thomas. Dr Thomas C Burton Mandurang, Victoria Australia ----- Original Message ----- From: "Thierry Dietrich" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 7:11 PM Subject: Re: [HESSE] strange words Hello Thomas. In some katholic regions "senator" was used for german functions such as "Schöffe" or (if the person was a professional soldier) for "Offizier". Sometimes in some regions it also may refer to "Ratsherr" or "Ältester". "Ordinarius" may signify a clerical position in the church, but may also signify the person bearing this title was a teacher at a somewhat special or higher school. Whoever speaks german or is able to manage german books I strongly recommend: E. Habel/F. Gröbel, "Mittellateinisches Glossar", ISBN 3-8252-1551-2 This latin-german dictionary is NOT refering to the old latin language, but is reflecting the use of the mediaval and clerical latin such as in church records genealogist are dealing with. I also recommend: Johann Heinrich Barth, "Genealogische-Etymologisches Lexikon - Band 1 Deutsch", ISBN 3-937504-15-X Which bears a wealth of knowledge regarding genealogy (more than 27.000 terms), including "senator" and "ordinarius" for instance. Both books may be found on Amazon, also look for used books which often are much cheeper and are absolutely fine for use as frequently used reference books. Good luck towards the other side of the ocean to all genealogists interested in where their roots are. :-) Best regards from good old Germany (I live in the former residencial city of the dynasty of the first duke of Nassau, in Usingen; the duchy of Nassau also being my primary area of interest in genealogy), Thierry Dr. Thierry P. Dietrich D-61250 Usingen ________________________________ Von: Thomas Burton <[email protected]> An: Hesse <[email protected]> Gesendet: Freitag, den 20. Februar 2009, 01:28:54 Uhr Betreff: [HESSE] strange words Hello, I have recently "found" parish records of some forebears in Winkel, Rheingaukreis, and the records contain some not very strange Latin words in strange contexts, and I wonder if anyone know why they are used. The two words are variants of "ordinarius" and "senator". They are being used in some technical or local sense as in these extracts dating from 1685 to 1705. but I have not been able to find anything in dictionaries on paper or on the web that makes sense of them: Joes Jacobus Klüppel Nicholai Klippel nautae olim nostri(?) ordinarii filius relictus Sepult Nicholaus Klüppel nauta ordinarius sacri provisi pm quinquagenaris maioris Anna Catharina D. Conradi Henneman Senatoris Maria Catherina Christiani Ochsenkopf Senatoris huiatis filia (Capitals and spellings as in the originals of these snippets; the word "nostri" is a guess -- certainly "nost-something"; "Joes" is abbrev of "Joannes", "sepult" of "sepultus" = buried; "Klippel" had two versions; Latin in records was often ungrammatical.) "Ordinarius" appears to go with "nauta" (which, despite its feminine ending is a masculine word), but that may be coincidence. Why would a boatman on the Rhine be described as ordinary in church documents? Can anybody help? Thank you, Thomas. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Le petite fils avec les livres est tres mignon, Olivier- c'est un a bonne site! Sue ( j'ai obiliez mon Francais- c'est domage! Pour cinqs annees j'ai habitee en Belgique) -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of olivier Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2009 3:04 AM To: Hesse Subject: [HESSE] Mise a jour de mon site 2006-2009 Bonjour, Je viens (enfin !) de me décider à mettre à jour mes données généalogiques sur mon site. Il n’y avait aucune information nouvelle depuis 2006 :( Je vous encourage donc à aller y faire un petit tour, tout en espérant que vous y trouverez votre bonheur ! N’hésitez pas non plus à me retourner toute correction ou information utiles. Bonne lecture, -- Amicalement, Olivier. ########### Site : http://olaroche.club.fr/index.html ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message