Hi everyone! 1. "DES" The only place I've ever seen "Des" (Martin Des HARKEY) is in the LDS ancestral file. I never found out its meaning, and so I decided that the submitter had tried to enter "Martin der Alte" or "Martin der Vater" or something like that (to distinguish him from "Martin der Junge") and something had gone amiss--perhaps the first word had been misread or mistyped, and there wasn't enough room on the submission to write both words. That's a pretty fanciful rationalization but the best I could do. 2. BIRTH YEARS All I can offer is Joseph Harkey's statement about Martin: >>Evidently, Martin was born in Lancaster Co., PA, between 1740 and 1745, perhaps earlier. His father had come from Holland shortly before that. . . .>> I've never seen any evidence for confirmed or even inferred birth years, but it would be great if someone answers your request. Otherwise, it looks like you get to pick. 3. JOHN Do you have a John as a BROTHER to "Old" Martin and David "the Loyalist"?? I have never seen mention of one, although it seems reasonable that there would be one. (I thought there might have been one but he died early.) I hope that you get lots of responses to your message, and that they are more helpful than mine. Alma [email protected]