Hi Viki On Thursday 03 April 2003 04:41, you wrote: > Hello again, > My evening out has been cancelled. Aren't you the lucky one. > > The entry in the Notorial Protest Book 1756-1810 Southampton (Southampton > Record Series) is Ref 199, page 85 of 1972 transcript: > > "A local Bill paid 1808 > 10 Oct'r £90 Redbridge Sept'r7 1808 Thirty days after date pay to my order > the sum of ninety pounds for value rec'd Robt HENDY. To Mr MONCHEER, East > Street Southampton (endorsed) Payable at Messrs HUNT, TRIM & Co . > Accepted W. MOUCHER 1808 Oct'r 11 present'd - this was paid upon being > presented." > > The notation at the bottom of page of the transcript says: > "HUNT was a brewer; Joseph, John and Samuel HUNT are to be found leasing > brewhouse and inns from 1765 onwards (SC4/3/655etc) TRIM was a grocer; > Trim and Kellow; grocers 118 High Street (Directory 1803 and 1811) > Partnership set up a bank 25 March 1800: John HUNT, Brewer; Thomas BAKER > merchant; Cornelius TRIM, grocer; Samuel MILLER, gentleman; Thomas BLAKE, > merchant; Edward TOOMER(D/Z?51)" > > From same publication there is another, similar presentment payable at > Messrs HUNT and Co (Ref 201): > > I also have a copy of the Minute Book of the Pavement Commission from the > same Record Series and this entry on page 117 might be relevant, seeing as > this was the rough area where there was definitely a brewery. > Unfortunately, there is no index for this book so it is a case of trolling > thru it entry by entry looking for names: > "Wed 30th March 1785 > Application having been made by Mr HUNT to alter the Pavement to make a > Gutter acorss the Foot Pavement from York Buildings to East Street to carry > the Drain acorss there the Commissioners have given Leave to him to do the > same under the Inspection of the Collector" > > If you contact the Southampton (not Hampshire) Record Office at the Civic > Centre quoting the Lease references as above (SC4/3/655) you might be able > to take your research a bit further. Southampton City Record Office Email > city.archives@southampton.gov.uk > > You might also still be able to obtain copies of the book or others from > the Series. see http://www.soton.ac.uk/~srs/editors.html > > > As an aside: I have an original copy of the NATIONAL ROLL OF THE GREAT WAR > 1914-18 for Southampton. If you think any of your male HUNTs were still > living in Southampton at this time then I am happy to do a look up for > them. The same goes for anyone else reading this. As much detail as > possible will help. > > Hope some of this helps. > Yours > Vicki Turner Sorry that your night out fell through but I'm very grateful for your stay-at-home efforts above on my behalf. Thank you very much. None of these HUNT names jump out immediately as being mine but nevertheless they definitely provide some more pieces for the HUNT jigsaw - even if they do eventually turn out to be a different HUNT family. Lots of pointers for further research too. At this time our only known WW1-era HUNT male in the Southampton area is Arthur Cecil HUNT who died of wounds and whose name is on the Netley Marsh memorial. Thanks also for your other email re the MEATYARD burials in Eling. I checked them out and, while they are somewhat later than my immediate area of interest, they are portentialy useful since MEATYARD is nowhere near as a common a name as HUNT. Thanks again Colin -- Colin Roe, Torrens ACT Australia

Hi Maureen On Thursday 03 April 2003 08:18, you wrote: > Message From: "Colin Roe" <croe@pcug.org.au> > Subject: [HantsLife] HUNT inkeepers in/around Southampton > While visiting Romsey in 2000 I checked the LTVASG's pubs booklet > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Hello Colin > This is an absolute longshot but can you remember if you noticed the names > VANSANTEN or WEEKS in the above booklet, please ? > > My bods of said names were Romsey born, & short-term residents of > Southampton who, like your HUNTs, had connections to inns, Waterloo Place & > All Saints (So'ton) and Bell St. & The Hundred, (Romsey). > > It could all just be a coincidence, of course but would love to hear if > there's anything stirring in your memory. > > Kind regards, Maureen, ex Southampton, NZ No joy I'm afraid. The notes from my 2000 trip to Romsey don't mention either of your names. For the record, the Romsey pubs book was "So Drunk He Must Have Been to Romsey - a History of Romsey's Pubs and Inns" published by the Lower Test Archaeological Study Group in 1974 reprinted 1984. Regards Colin -- Colin Roe, Torrens ACT Australia

I was searching the 1881 Census for a Louisa who possibly could have been in 1901 the wife of Ebenezer Packman and I came across the following who seems to be the only possible person Louisa PHILLIPS - 1881 British Census / Hampshire Inmate Gender: Female Birth: <1871> Alton, Hampshire, England I was looking for her family and found that she was living at Farnham & Hartley Wintney District School Census Place Crondall, Hampshire, England which appeared to be run by John F. PHILLIPS (Superintendent). I went onto Google and found that it operated under the Poor Law. Three of the children (inmates) at the "school" appear to be brothers and sisters from the same PHILLIP family, William (11), Louisa (10) and Henry (8). John F Phillips, the Superintendent, was 51 and his wife 52 which could probably make them to old to be their parents. What do others think? Does anyone know this family Jim Jim & Beverley Payne NEW ZEALAND jr_bjpayne@xtra.co.nz Our web page has moved to the following URL: http://www.angelfire.com/journal2/shampayne2001/

Hi Chris and Caroline, What a useful and interesting site the Police one is. The book that is being promoted has gone on my "wants" list. Vicki Turner

As somebody complained that the Police website we put up over the weekend was "not" Hampshire related ( It did cover all forces) We found this one which IS Hampshire related!! Chris and Caroline HAMPSHIRE POLICE http://www.hants.gov.uk/hchs/ They also have links to various records and anyone researching their Family History and needing copies of old police personnel records should view their Noticeboard page for details of records available and how to apply for copies. --- All of our Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. And attachments are also scanned before being added. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.465 / Virus Database: 263 - Release Date: 25/03/2003

Message From: "Chris & Caroline" <chris@chayles.freeserve.co.uk> Subject: [HantsLife] Romsey Abbey - website http://www.romseyabbey.org.uk/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~` Thankyou so much for this - just wonderful! It also probably answers a question I've been asking about my bods for ages re the link between Romsey & Eling (Was it boat building? No-one has been able to tell me). Seems the Abbey Vicar during the 1800s was the inventor of a fold-out lifeboat! I'm now very keen to investigate this further. Maureen, NZ

Hello Vicki here are all the SMITH burial entries 1862-1906 from PR11 Bishopstoke, not sure if they will help but here goes............. page 119 no 951 Bernard Wilmhurst SMITH of Stoke buried Feb 20 1862 aged 10mths page 144 no 1147 Martha SMITH of Bishopstoke buried Jan 2 1875 aged 73 page 156 no 1247 Percy Peter SMITH of Bishopstoke buried Sept 29 1884 aged 18 page 164 no 1311 Victor Luigi SMITH of Bishopstoke buried Oct 7 1891 aged 6 page 178 no 1418 Harriett SMITH Stoke Common buried Dec 4 1897 aged 26 page 195 no 1558 Mary Ann SMITH of Stoke Common buried Mar 22 1904 aged 69 Linda & Tony > Hello Vicki > no trouble will check the burials post 1862 for SMITHs and not a pain at > all.Will check in a little while. > Take care,Linda & Tony > > > >> Hello Linda and Tony, >> >> Not sure, as I don't know my Robert SMITH' parents. Burials of SMITHs >> after >> 1862 might show one or t'other of them up. Could I be a pain and ask you >> to >> look up Burials from then to 1906. As I said in my message, I think >> Robert >> was born August 1864 and your records don't cover baptisms for that >> period. >> Thanks. >> Vicki >> >> > >

Hello Linda and Tony, Not sure, as I don't know my Robert SMITH' parents. Burials of SMITHs after 1862 might show one or t'other of them up. Could I be a pain and ask you to look up Burials from then to 1906. As I said in my message, I think Robert was born August 1864 and your records don't cover baptisms for that period. Thanks. Vicki

Hello, A real longshot this, because of the common-ness of the surname. Does anyone have access to Parish Records of Bishopstoke? I have just been given some very battered and almost illegible photocopies of family documents of a Robert SMITH. They are discharge papers from the Army in 1897. He was discharged in Capetown South Africa and intended place of residence looks like "Salti River Works". He was a wheelwright then but was a Gunner in the Royal Artillery in 1885 when first entered service. (Attested at Woolwich) He was born in Bishopstoke, and in May 1885 was 21and threequarters. My calculations, then, make him born August 1863. Before I follow up the service side of things, I would be grateful if anyone could look up the PRecords for me to see if his christening appears. This Robert SMITH was an ancestor of Gertrude Catherine STRATFORD born Pyrton Oxfordshire, whose son married into my SELLWOODs, but quite where Robert fits in I am trying to ascertain. Thanks Vicki Turner

In a message dated 06/04/2003 18:02:32 GMT Standard Time, Knightroots writes: > > Hello Vicki > no trouble will check the burials post 1862 for SMITHs and not a pain at > all.Will check in a little while. > Take care,Linda & Tony > > > >> Hello Linda and Tony, >> >> Not sure, as I don't know my Robert SMITH' parents. Burials of SMITHs >> after >> 1862 might show one or t'other of them up. Could I be a pain and ask you >> to >> look up Burials from then to 1906. As I said in my message, I think >> Robert >> was born August 1864 and your records don't cover baptisms for that >> period. >> Thanks. >> Vicki >> >> >

Vicki Thank you I will find there contact and seek there advice on Joseph WORT. Cheers Steve Name Place WORT ALL Blisford, Fordingbridge, Winchester, Southampton, Wiltshire ----------------------------------- How to subscribe. Send a message to WORT-L-request@rootsweb.com that contains (in the body of the message) the command subscribe and no additional text. ----- Original Message ----- From: "historyresearch" <historyresearch@supanet.com> To: <HAMPSHIRE-LIFE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2003 12:52 AM Subject: [HantsLife] Surname - WORT Hello all, Someone just recently was asking about the surname WORT, but I cannot remember who. Today I visited Buckler's Hard near Beaulieu and if the person is interested, there is a plaque on the first house on the right at the top of the slope in Buckler's Hard village which says "Joseph WORT, 1774". I only noticed it as we were about to leave so I know nothing else about it, but thought that you might be interested. If you are then I should think that Buckler's Hard Museum would be the people to tell you more about it. Yours Vicki Turner ==== HAMPSHIRE-LIFE Mailing List ==== Please use common sense when sending or replying to messages on the list. What may not offend you may offend others. Please do not send virus warnings, or other matetial not relevant to Hampshire and its history. ============================== To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237

Hello Vicki we have the following for Bishopstoke..... BISHOPSTOKE(CMB 1658 - 1781; CM 1700 - 1781; CB 1782 - 1812; B 1813 - 1906) Any help? Linda & Tony > Hello, > A real longshot this, because of the common-ness of the surname. Does > anyone have access to Parish Records of Bishopstoke? I have just been > given > some very battered and almost illegible photocopies of family documents of > a > Robert SMITH. They are discharge papers from the Army in 1897. He was > discharged in Capetown South Africa and intended place of residence looks > like "Salti River Works". He was a wheelwright then but was a Gunner in > the > Royal Artillery in 1885 when first entered service. (Attested at Woolwich) > He was born in Bishopstoke, and in May 1885 was 21and threequarters. My > calculations, then, make him born August 1863. Before I follow up the > service side of things, I would be grateful if anyone could look up the > PRecords for me to see if his christening appears. This Robert SMITH was > an > ancestor of Gertrude Catherine STRATFORD born Pyrton Oxfordshire, whose son > married into my SELLWOODs, but quite where Robert fits in I am trying to > ascertain. Thanks > > Vicki Turner >

Great map of Hampshire.Leckford was Lakeford in 1787,Longstock was Longstoke in 1787.............Jan NZ

On the subject of maps - this site is dedicated to old Hampshire maps; there are 29 maps dating from 1575 to 1815, also extracts about Hampshire from William Cobbett's Rural Rides, 1830. http://www.envf.port.ac.uk/geo/old_hants_map.html Moya Page (nee Banting) researching BANTING and PERREN in Hampshire

This was in Milton Street Portsmouth which became the St Marys hospital c1930 You can read all about it and its conditions here http://www.institutions.org.uk/workhouses/england/hants/portsmouth_workhouse .htm Chris and Caroline ----- Original Message ----- From: <PeterGen@aol.com> To: <HAMPSHIRE-LIFE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, April 04, 2003 9:43 PM Subject: [HantsLife] Union House, Milton, Portsmouth Dear List, Can anyone tell me please where Union House, Milton (presumably the workhouse) was/is, and whether the building still exists. Many thanks for any assistance. Peter Beckett (PeterGen@aol.com) ==== HAMPSHIRE-LIFE Mailing List ==== Please use common sense when sending or replying to messages on the list. What may not offend you may offend others. Please do not send virus warnings, or other matetial not relevant to Hampshire and its history. ============================== To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 --- All of our Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. And attachments are also scanned before being added. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.465 / Virus Database: 263 - Release Date: 25/03/2003

Hello all, Someone just recently was asking about the surname WORT, but I cannot remember who. Today I visited Buckler's Hard near Beaulieu and if the person is interested, there is a plaque on the first house on the right at the top of the slope in Buckler's Hard village which says "Joseph WORT, 1774". I only noticed it as we were about to leave so I know nothing else about it, but thought that you might be interested. If you are then I should think that Buckler's Hard Museum would be the people to tell you more about it. Yours Vicki Turner

Thanks for those -- excellent site! Edna - Ottawa ----- Original Message ----- From: "historyresearch" <historyresearch@supanet.com> To: <HAMPSHIRE-LIFE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, April 04, 2003 8:05 PM Subject: [HantsLife] New map site There is an excellent map of Hampshire 1787 (as well as many others of other places) on this new site. And they are free. http://www.yourmapsonline.org.uk Vicki ==== HAMPSHIRE-LIFE Mailing List ==== Please use common sense when sending or replying to messages on the list. What may not offend you may offend others. Please do not send virus warnings, or other matetial not relevant to Hampshire and its history. ============================== To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237

There is an excellent map of Hampshire 1787 (as well as many others of other places) on this new site. And they are free. http://www.yourmapsonline.org.uk Vicki

We found the following website which may be useful for others. Chris and Caroline Welcome to what we believe is the first and only online Metropolitan police orders database. All information supplied online can be sourced via the public records office at Kew. We are an independent Group supporting the present Metropolitan Police Museum based at Charlton. This site helps family historians trace records of relatives who served in the metropolitan police Service. http://www.policeorders.co.uk/ It also answered one of our questions on how the police became to be known as "The Old Bill" "The Old Bill" or "The Bill" as slang names for the police. The simple answer is that no one really knows for sure. Over the years at least 13 different possibilities have been proposed, as follows: 1. "Old Bill" was King William IV, whose constables were an early form of police. (It is often said erroneously that he was on the throne when the police were founded. Actually he did not succeed George IV until 1830) 2. The play "The Custom of the Country" written by John Fletcher in 1619 has constables of the watch refer to themselves as 'us peacemakers and all our bill of authority'. 3. Constables of the watch were sometimes nicknamed for the bills, or billhooks they carried as weapons. 4. Kaiser Wilhelm I of Prussia visited England around the time in 1864 when the police uniform changed from top hat and swallowtail coat to helmet and tunic. Such 'Prussian militarism' may have led to the police being nicknamed after the first (and today less remembered) Kaiser Bill. 5. The 'old bill' was, in Victorian times, a bill presumed to be presented by the police for a bribe to persuade them to turn a blind eye to some nefarious activity. 6. New laws for the police to enforce all come from bills passed through Parliament 7. "Old Bill" might refer to Bill Bailey of the music hall song 'Won't You Come Home...?' used in conjunction with a pun on the Central Criminal Court at the Old Bailey. 8. In the 1860s there was a Sergeant Bill Smith in Limehouse. He was a popular character and people used to ask after 'Old Bill'. 9. Many police officers wore authoritarian-looking "Old Bill" moustaches like that adorning a famous W.W.1 cartoon character 'the wily old soldier in the trenches' by Bruce Bairnsfather. 10. In 1917 the government used Bairnsfather's character in posters and advertisements putting over wartime messages under the heading "Old Bill says...". For this campaign the character was dressed in a special constable's uniform. 11. The original vehicles used by the Flying Squad all had the registration letters BYL, so the squad became known as 'the Bill'. 12. The London County Council at one time registered all police, fire and ambulance vehicles with the letters BYL 13. According to old Etonian illegal gaming club organizer and author the late Robin Cook ('Derek Raymond'), 'old bill' is a racing term for an outsider or unknown quantity. From the point of view of the underworld, police would be outsiders Despite all these suggestions, the earliest documented usage traced by the Metropolitan Police Historical Museum is from 1970 and 'Partridge's Dictionary of Slang'. Without giving citations the book dates "Old Bill" from the 1950s "or perhaps earlier". So the term may possibly be post W.W.2. --- All of our Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. And attachments are also scanned before being added. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.465 / Virus Database: 263 - Release Date: 25/03/2003

Just found this on my old army email list and thought it might interest you all Chris The Proceedings of the Old Bailey London 1674 to 1834. A fully searchable online edition of the largest body of texts detailing the lives of non- elite people ever published, containing accounts of over 100,000 criminal trials held at London's central criminal court. http://www.oldbaileyonline.org ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Where could you be whipped, shipped to Australia or hung just for stealing? Thu Apr 3, 6:32 PM ET By Christina S. N. Lewis, Court TV (Court TV) - When filmmaker Michael Moore called George W. Bush a "fictitious president" during his Academy Award acceptance speech, he was greeted with a few boos from the audience and, later, some unfavorable comments in the media. Still, he walked away with an Oscar for his documentary "Bowling for Columbine" and continued to garner the esteem of many. Peter Matson said pretty much the same thing about King George I, and he was sentenced to a year's imprisonment, fined 20 marks (a servant's annual wages) and ordered to stand twice in the pillory (a wooden board with holes for the neck and arms) for an hour as disapproving crowds jeered and threw things at him. It was 18th century England, where kidnapping a 15-year-old girl was a misdemeanor but pickpocketing a capital offense. And it is all documented on oldbaileyonline.org, an Internet archive containing contemporary accounts of practically every trial at the Old Bailey courthouse, the country's largest and most famous criminal court. The court's sessions, which happened eight times a year, were preserved thanks to "The Proceedings," a broadsheet that went into print in 1678. It began as a profitable venture that entertained the public with accounts of the more lewd, humorous or scandalous cases, but was eventually overseen by the city, which used it as an official record of trials. The Web site, which went online March 5, is the brainchild of two British historians, Tim Hitchcock and Robert Shoemaker, who realized that technology could make the documents a lot easier to access and read. "It is a source that's been used by 18th century historians for 20 years, but it does take six months to read it in its original form in microfilm. And ... that's not a pleasant occupation" said = Hitchcock. Now, the digital archive, which currently contains about 22,000 trials, from 1714 to 1759, and by next year will include about 100,000 trials dating to 1834, is searchable by name, date, crime, and keyword, among many other ways. For instance, a reader interested in the Irish could search for Irish, Ireland, a specific city or even the common Irish prefix "Mc" and find a number of trials involving Irish. Before the Web site arrived, a similar search would take months. Although Hitchcock originally saw the site as a resource for professional and amateur historians, he said it has received considerable attention from the legal community. The proceedings are contemporary accounts of how the law was enforced nearly 300 years ago in the courts that sired the American judicial system. "Most striking is the speed of the trials. You could literally be brought before the court, tried and convicted for a capital offense in less than 40 minutes. For lesser offenses the proceedings could last 10 minutes," said Hitchcock. The site reveals a number of stark differences between the judicial system then and now. First, lawyers were almost never used in the early 17th century. The victim of the crime was responsible for prosecuting the offender, and the person accused had to handle his own defense. Witnesses could be questioned by either party and also by the judge and even the jury. Also, defendants were not presumed innocent, they had no right to remain silent (indeed, they couldn't since they were their own lawyers) and no evidence was excluded. While today a person's prior crimes are not admissible, during an 18th century English trial, anything and everything about the accused was fair game in court. In fact, it was considered best if jurors knew the defendant or his family personally because they could then make a more informed judgment about his guilt. Many offenses considered very serious today were treated lightly at the Old Bailey. Attempted rape, beating one's wife or servant, and kidnapping were mere misdemeanors. But if you were a noble who found a commoner hunting in the king's forest, you could execute him on the spot. And pickpocketing, riot, horse theft, willfully damaging someone's house, stealing goods worth more than 40 shillings and - if you weren't a gentleman - hunting, were capital crimes. Fortunately for the convicted, cheating death was often a possibility. Juries could commit "pious perjury" and convict the defendant of a less serious crime that did not carry a death sentence. A pregnant woman could "plead her belly" and avoid death until after her baby's birth and then be almost certain to receive a pardon to care for the child. And a holdover from the Middle Ages called "Benefit of the Clergy" let any man who could read the Bible's "neck verse" (Psalm 52) avoid hanging. He was branded on the thumb instead so that the exemption could only be used once. "Benefit of the clergy became simply a test of literacy," said Hitchcock. Finally, the monarchy used pardons far more liberally than most U.S. governors. In the 18th century, His Royal Highness granted half of all pardon petitions and usually commuted the sentences to deportation to the United States or Australia. By the 19th century, the death penalty had lost most of its bite since the king granted 90 percent of pardon requests. "At that point everyone in the court, even the defendant, would be smirking as the solemn sentence of death was read out," said Peter King, a British historian who uses the site with his students at the University of Hertfordshire. "They knew it wasn't going to happen." 'The Hole' Many of the accounts are very detailed. One notable case is the murder of four women in 1742 by William Bird, the keeper of St. Martin's round-house, which served as a local jail. Bird was accused of arresting and imprisoning more than 20 women without food and water inside a 6-foot-by-6- foot underground room known as "The Hole." Four of the women died. The testimony was graphic. Sarah Bland, a friend of the deceased Mary Maurice, was the first witness. "Court. What State of Health was Mary Maurice in, when she went down into the Hole?" "Bland. She was very well then; but about four or five o'Clock, she was very light-headed, and said to me, Cousin, let me die, let me die, for God's Sake. She laid her Head upon my Lap for some Time; and her Head dropped off my Lap, she sunk down and I saw her no more afterwards, I was in a Fit myself." John Leathes, a resident who visited the round-house to see if he knew any of the prisoners, testified that he could see that the conditions inside the Hole were deadly. "Q. Was there any Stench in the Place?" "Leathes. Yes, a very great one; and not being used to such Smells, I thought I should have been suffocated ... I told him the Danger these poor unhappy Creatures were in, and that if he put any more in, or let them stay there till Morning, they would be dead; and he said, 'Let them die and be damned.'" Finally Bird's fellow jailor, Robert Bushel the round-house deputy, admitted after repeated questioning from the Judge that "[Bird] is pretty cruel my Lord." Not surprisingly, Bird was found guilty of murder and sentenced to death. According to Hitchcock, the story didn't end there. His sentence was commuted and he was sent to America but never made it. He was killed by the ship's captain, who was then tried in his turn at the Old Bailey for the murder. "I like that case," said Hitchcock "because you can see how the mechanism of the laws was enforced." --- All of our Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. And attachments are also scanned before being added. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.465 / Virus Database: 263 - Release Date: 25/03/2003 --- All of our Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. And attachments are also scanned before being added. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.465 / Virus Database: 263 - Release Date: 25/03/2003