Thanks to those who explained about 'Portsea parish church' in 1891 being St Mary's. I didn't expect such a flame to follow! My father's parents were, as I now know, married at St Mary's in 1891, even though they both came from round Woolwich way (the bride's father, a retired Navy & Dockyard bloke, lived in Portsmouth). My father lived and worked in Portsmouth for over 40 years, but never mentioned his parents' marriage there - he probably didn't know! He also told me that the choice of St Thomas as the cathedral was mostly because it was felt to be convenient for folk coming from the Island for events, and a bit because it was a more historic structure - but that, as listers have commented, it was not a generally popular choice. It certainly seemed to me as a boy that St Mary's offered a better venue for large congregations than the (then still truncated) 'Cathedral'. Of course St Thomas would have seemed a more classy sort of place while still surrounded by C17 and C18 houses as it was pre-Blitz, more like Salisbury and other 'traditional' cathedrals with their closes: perhaps some distrust of class and clique also lay behind the opposition to St Thomas being chosen. Anyway, back to genealogy! Toby in Bristol

Hi Listers I am new to this list but not new to genealogy. I'm looking into my husband John's family history. My husband's father was Lloyd George WRIGHT born in January 1915 in the registration district of Hartley Wintney. His mother's maiden name may have been COX, I'll know for certain when his birth certificate arrives. His wife was Florence Ellen JOHNSON born in Worcestershire. They were married in November 1937 in the registration district of Surrey N.W. Lloyd was the youngest of 10 children. He had brothers Paul and Robert and sisters Nellie (Beulah), Norah and Ruth. I'm afraid that my husband doesn't remember the names of the others. Nellie married William E. J. Coe in 1924 in the registration district of Farnham, Norah married Gilbert FORD in 1925 in the registration district of Hartley Wintney and Ruth married William FIDDIS in 1933 in the registration of Alton. If anyone is researching the names I would be happy to hear from them. Elizabeth

Hi Phillip, I only have one Broomfield on my tree. Mary Broomfield was born in Owlesbury in 1828. She married George Houghton Cawte in Owlesbury in 1854. I cannot find them on the 1861 or 1871 census and have no children for them. However, Mary does appear on the 1881, widowed, working as a housekeeper in Abberley Worcestershire. Lynda > From: phillbrett68@optusnet.com.au > Subject: [HAM] Re Hampshire Re Surname Broomfield > > Hi list i am Currently researching my Broomfield Family Which came from the > hampshire area if anyone has this surname please do contact me so that we > can connect up i have a great deal of information on this family now i do > look forward to hearing from you soon all the best > phillip cole > > _________________________________________________________________ Do you have a story that started on Hotmail? Tell us now http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/195013117/direct/01/

Hi list i am Currently researching my Broomfield Family Which came from the hampshire area if anyone has this surname please do contact me so that we can connect up i have a great deal of information on this family now i do look forward to hearing from you soon all the best phillip cole

Hi folks I am new to the list, My dilema is try to trace a John Gray and who he married a Catherine could be spelt with a K who came from Dolgellau Nth Wales according to 1851 census. Sons John Alak Gray 1831 give or take a couple of years according to census sons Robert William 1833 and Henry 1835 in the 1841 census the 3 boys are with a John and Catherine Woods ( 1809) Of St Marys Southampton Living with Charles Woods 1841 son aged 7 mths.I cannot find a marriage for her to John Woods. In 1851census she is a widow with John Alak stating born in Hamble .I would like to know his birth if possible? Robert and Henry born at St Marys in Southampton along with the other children,Southampton born Charles Woods 1841 Emily Woods 1844 Alfred Woods 1846 and Harriet Woods 1847 . On the IGI John Alak Gray married Ann Fairlie 02 06 1855 at All Saints Southampton stating father John Gray? This John Alak went on to be an Iron founder and manufacturer. I have looked at Knightsroots what a credit to Linda and Tony for such a great website thank you. I have found Robert William 1833 and Henry Ison 1835 at St Mary's Southampton.Father John a Gardener mother Katherine /Catherine. Many thanks Jacquie Turner form Brisbane Queensland Australia

Here I come again. I`m not arguing facts of existence. But the diocese of Portsmouth wasn`t created until 1927. in 1932 plans were published to expand the existing church of St Thomas to become the Cathedral. which was completed in 1991 and consecrated in the Presence of the Queen mother. My argument is that it was not a popular choice, as far as the local population was concerned ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fionnghal" <fionnghalnicphadraig@yahoo.co.uk> To: <hampshire@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, March 20, 2010 9:26 PM Subject: Re: [HAM] Portsea Parish Church in 1891 > Linda & Tony are right, no matter what people wish or prefer. The bishop > has it! > > You'll find it in the dictionary even, like it or lump it, a cathedral is > a church which contains the bishop's seat! That's what turns it into a > cathedral. Nothing else! Can't argue with the facts no matter how plain, > ugly or beautiful the church is nor how sentimental you may feel about the > church. > > try Wikipedia if you wish: > The word cathedral is derived from the Latin word cathedra ("seat" or > "chair"), and refers to the presence of the bishop's or archbishop's chair > or throne. In the ancient world, the chair was the symbol of a teacher and > thus of the bishop's role as teacher, and also of an official presiding as > a magistrate and thus of the bishop's role in governing a diocese. > > Though now grammatically used as a noun, the term cathedral was originally > the adjective in the phrase "cathedral church", from the Latin ecclesia > cathedralis. The seat marks the place set aside in the prominent church of > the diocese for the head of that diocese and is therefore a major symbol > of authority. > > le durachd > > Fionnghal > >> you are entitled to your` opinion, but that is all it >> is and everybody has one >> The many of us were my my family and their friends and >> descendants, and my >> many friends, from when I lived in Portsmouth in the 1960s. >> My g grandmother >> moved there in the 1890s and had 13 kids my father was born >> there, my >> grandparents were bombed out just after the old Guildhall, and >> tonight is the >> first time I've ever heard St, Thomas` called impressive or >> heard of anyone >> agreeing with it being the Portsmouth Cathedral > > > > > > >

I am related to the Broomfields via my Great Aunt Eva Beatrice Gould who married Robert Frederick Broomfield. Robert died in 1918 as the result of war injuries and is buried in Netley Marsh churchyard. I am regularly in touch with his Grandaughter Diana Dingle nee Broomfield who lives in Cornwall. Regards Brian Gould -----Original Message----- From: hampshire-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:hampshire-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of phillip cole Sent: 20 March 2010 22:00 To: HAMPSHIRE@rootsweb.com Subject: [HAM] Re Hampshire Re Surname Broomfield Importance: High Hi list i am Currently researching my Broomfield Family Which came from the hampshire area if anyone has this surname please do contact me so that we can connect up i have a great deal of information on this family now i do look forward to hearing from you soon all the best phillip cole No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.791 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2758 - Release Date: 03/19/10 22:07:00

Hi Phillip You did not indicate which time frame or town you are concerned with regard to your BROOMFIELD family but I have a Hilda K. KNELLER on one of the KNELLER trees I am researching who married Ronald G. BROOMFIELD in 1950 at Southampton. If these names are linked to your BROOMFIELD research I would be happy to hear from you, but as they may both be still alive I would be grateful if you could contact me off-list. David Neller DaveNeller@aol.com London, England Guild of One-Name Studies Registered Researcher (2950) with regard to surnames : NELLER, NELLAR, NELLOR, KNELLER Member of the Society of Genealogists

you are entitled to your` opinion, but that is all it is and everybody has one The many of us were my my family and their friends and descendants, and my many friends, from when I lived in Portsmouth in the 1960s. My g grandmother moved there in the 1890s and had 13 kids my father was born there, my grandparents were bombed just after the old Guildhall, and tonight is the first time I`ve ever heard St, Thomas` called impressive or heard of anyone agreeing with it being the Portsmouth Cathedral ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hampshire OPC" <hampshireopc@btinternet.com> To: <hampshire@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, March 20, 2010 7:32 PM Subject: Re: [HAM] Portsea Parish Church in 1891 > Not sure who the "many of us" are "that believe that St Mary's should have > been the cathedral"! Cathedral status is governed by the presence of a > Bishop and has nothing to do with the building itself. > Parloc as a tool merely shows neighbouring parishes as opposed to churches > within a parish. The name of the programme is derived from Parish Locator. > > > Hope this helps > Linda & Tony > > -----Original Message----- > > On Behalf Of Joe Austen > Sent: 19 March 2010 23:42 > > Anthony a handy little tool is parloc which you can download for free > online, it gives three churches for Portsea, there is the Orange street > independent, St Marys` ( which many of us believed should have been made > the > Cathedral, certainly it is more impressive than St Thomas, and more > central > to the population) and St Johns, parloc also gives links to streetmaps. > HTH > joe Austen in OZ ps where do you think I got names of the three churches from? > > >

Joe - it was yourself who raised the debate when replying to the original posting which had the subject title of Portsea 1891. You can always change the subject of a message thread if the matter being debated strays from the original as we have (above). You stated that many of us would have preferred St Mary to be the cathedral with the "us" meaning members of your family rather than the list subscribers. Why the Authorities chose St Thomas as the Cathedral as opposed to St Mary is maybe archived in the Church records, given the long history of both buildings. Portsmouth only obtained City status in 1926 with the Diocese being created a year later as you correctly state. Possibly the fact that the current St Mary structure was only bult in the 1880's may have been a factor? Linda & Tony >>>>The diocese of Portsmouth wasn`t created until 1927 so what has that got to do with 1891 >>>this is not intended for the list so I`m not trimming the footer. Iwas replying to John Ridley as well as you >>>popular opinion has little to do with ecumenical fact, and popular opinion of the time would rather have seen >>>St Marys` as the Cathedral, >>>Regards Joe Austen in North Queensland. OZ

I guess what Joe was referring to was that St Thomas of Canterbury only became designated as the Cathedral Church in 1927, when the diocese of Portsmouth was created from the former part of the Diocese of Winchester. At the time, it was possibly discussed which of the major parish churches in Portsea/Portsmouth would be given this title and where the new Bishop would be enthroned. Whilst people may have had different opinions to the Anglican Church authorities, the fact as Linda & Tony have stated is that this was the choice made. It has to be said that in comparison to most Cathedrals in England, neither are particularly memorable, reflecting perhaps the relatively short history of the Diocese of Portsmouth and the fact that it was expedient to use an existing building rather than mark the occasion with a new cathedral as, for instance happened in Guildford. Jon Baker -----Original Message----- Linda & Tony are right, no matter what people wish or prefer. The bishop has it! Fionnghal

Linda & Tony are right, no matter what people wish or prefer. The bishop has it! You'll find it in the dictionary even, like it or lump it, a cathedral is a church which contains the bishop's seat! That's what turns it into a cathedral. Nothing else! Can't argue with the facts no matter how plain, ugly or beautiful the church is nor how sentimental you may feel about the church. try Wikipedia if you wish: The word cathedral is derived from the Latin word cathedra ("seat" or "chair"), and refers to the presence of the bishop's or archbishop's chair or throne. In the ancient world, the chair was the symbol of a teacher and thus of the bishop's role as teacher, and also of an official presiding as a magistrate and thus of the bishop's role in governing a diocese. Though now grammatically used as a noun, the term cathedral was originally the adjective in the phrase "cathedral church", from the Latin ecclesia cathedralis. The seat marks the place set aside in the prominent church of the diocese for the head of that diocese and is therefore a major symbol of authority. le durachd Fionnghal > you are entitled to your` opinion, but that is all it > is and everybody has one > The many of us were my my family and their friends and > descendants, and my > many friends, from when I lived in Portsmouth in the 1960s. > My g grandmother > moved there in the 1890s and had 13 kids my father was born > there, my > grandparents were bombed just after the old Guildhall, and > tonight is the > first time I've ever heard St, Thomas` called impressive or > heard of anyone > agreeing with it being the Portsmouth Cathedral

The original prefabricated structure of St Bartholomew was indeed known as the crinoline church because of the circular roof design which gave it the appearance of a crinoline skirt. It was originally a mobile hospital building used in the Crimean War. Once the permanent St Bartholomew building had been completed the Crinoline church was moved to a temporary site near to the present location of St Simon's Church where it occupied a similar role whilst St Simon was under construction. When no longer required on this site the Crinoline Church was moved to Eastney Barracks where it remained until demolished. St Bartholomews was bombed in WW2 and later demolished Regards Linda & Tony -----Original Message----- On Behalf Of The Orange Wasps Sent: 20 March 2010 10:37 To: hampshire@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [HAM] Portsea Parish Church in 1891 It's a shame that the Crinoline Church (St Bartholomew) is no longer in existence - I understand that it was a prefabricated edifice that was moved as required. The only relic of its existence is St Bartholomew Gardens which is a crescent of the same shape and size as the old church. An image of the church may be seen at Dennis Bill's FH site http://www.dennisbillfamilyhistory.co.uk/Dreamon_v4_p4.htm

Our reply was not an opinion but a statement of fact. St Thomas is the Cathedral because that is where the Bishop is "allocated" St Mary does not have a Bishop. Linda & Tony -----Original Message----- From: hampshire-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:hampshire-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Joe Austen Sent: 20 March 2010 10:15 To: hampshire@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [HAM] Portsea Parish Church in 1891 you are entitled to your` opinion, but that is all it is and everybody has one The many of us were my my family and their friends and descendants, From: "Hampshire OPC" <hampshireopc@btinternet.com> To: <hampshire@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, March 20, 2010 7:32 PM Subject: Re: [HAM] Portsea Parish Church in 1891 > Not sure who the "many of us" are "that believe that St Mary's should have > been the cathedral"! Cathedral status is governed by the presence of a > Bishop and has nothing to do with the building itself.

It's a shame that the Crinoline Church (St Bartholomew) is no longer in existence - I understand that it was a prefabricated edifice that was moved as required. The only relic of its existence is St Bartholomew Gardens which is a crescent of the same shape and size as the old church. An image of the church may be seen at Dennis Bill's FH site http://www.dennisbillfamilyhistory.co.uk/Dreamon_v4_p4.htm Ruth in Hambledon, Hampshire "The Cradle of Cricket" -----Original Message----- From: hampshire-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:hampshire-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of John Ridley Sent: 20 March 2010 09:44 To: hampshire@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [HAM] Portsea Parish Church in 1891 I'm not sure who the "many of us" are either? I think St Thomas's Church is far more impressive than St Mary's, also far older with far more history.

I'm not sure who the "many of us" are either? I think St Thomas's Church is far more impressive than St Mary's, also far older with far more history. -----Original Message----- From: hampshire-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:hampshire-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Parker Sent: 19 March 2010 1:00 PM To: Hampshire_posts rootsweb Subject: [HAM] Portsea Parish Church in 1891 March 21 1891, Marriage solemnized at The Parish Church in the Parish of Portsea in the County of Hants. So says Rev A B Mynors on the cert of my grandparents' wedding. In 1891, was the parish church of Portsea St Thomas (Old Portsmouth, now Cathedral) or St Mary (what we always used to call Kingston), or somewhere else altogether? I'm not sure about parish changes in late C19 and someone please put me right! Anthony Parker. For FREE online parish register transcriptions and other information visit www.knightroots.co.uk. Please trim ALL messages to a minimum & remove the footer as this is added automatically at the end of all messages. Thanks To subscribe or unsubscribe please send a message to hampshire-request@rootsweb.com with the appropriate subject header.Thanks ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to HAMPSHIRE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Anthony a handy little tool is parloc which you can download for free online, it gives three churches for Portsea, there is the Orange street independent, St Marys` ( which many of us believed should have been made the Cathedral, certainly it is more impressive than St Thomas, and more central to the population) and St Johns, parloc also gives links to streetmaps. HTH joe Austen in OZ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anthony Parker" <ajparker42@hotmail.com> To: "Hampshire_posts rootsweb" <hampshire@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, March 19, 2010 11:00 PM Subject: [HAM] Portsea Parish Church in 1891 > > March 21 1891, Marriage solemnized at The Parish Church in the Parish of > Portsea in the County of Hants. > > So says Rev A B Mynors on the cert of my grandparents' wedding. In 1891, > was the parish church of Portsea St Thomas (Old Portsmouth, now Cathedral) > or St Mary (what we always used to call Kingston), or somewhere else > altogether? I'm not sure about parish changes in late C19 and someone > please put me right! Anthony Parker. >

Not sure who the "many of us" are "that believe that St Mary's should have been the cathedral"! Cathedral status is governed by the presence of a Bishop and has nothing to do with the building itself. Parloc as a tool merely shows neighbouring parishes as opposed to churches within a parish. The name of the programme is derived from Parish Locator. Historically, St John, Portsea (principally serving the dockyard area inside the walls of which was the church of St Anne), St Mary, Portsea (serving that part of the Parish adjoining St John and the parish of Portsmouth) and St Thomas were always separate parishes, within which there were by 1891, many different churches. St Thomas served a large proportion of the merchant and wealthier portion of the population. As the population of Portsea grew, additional church capacity was required and many of what were initially chapelries of St Mary eventually became parishes in their own right - whilst others were awarded parish status on completion. These "newer" churches would include All Saints, St George, St Agatha as well as the many Southsea parishes such as St Jude, St Simon and the like. Hope this helps Linda & Tony -----Original Message----- On Behalf Of Joe Austen Sent: 19 March 2010 23:42 Anthony a handy little tool is parloc which you can download for free online, it gives three churches for Portsea, there is the Orange street independent, St Marys` ( which many of us believed should have been made the Cathedral, certainly it is more impressive than St Thomas, and more central to the population) and St Johns, parloc also gives links to streetmaps. HTH joe Austen in OZ

Hello Anthony The parish church of Portsea would have been St Marys. St Thomas' is Portsmouth as opposed to the parish church of Portsea. Linda & Tony -----Original Message----- From: hampshire-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:hampshire-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Parker Sent: 19 March 2010 13:00 To: Hampshire_posts rootsweb Subject: [HAM] Portsea Parish Church in 1891 March 21 1891, Marriage solemnized at The Parish Church in the Parish of Portsea in the County of Hants. So says Rev A B Mynors on the cert of my grandparents' wedding. In 1891, was the parish church of Portsea St Thomas (Old Portsmouth, now Cathedral) or St Mary (what we always used to call Kingston), or somewhere else altogether? I'm not sure about parish changes in late C19 and someone please put me right! Anthony Parker.

March 21 1891, Marriage solemnized at The Parish Church in the Parish of Portsea in the County of Hants. So says Rev A B Mynors on the cert of my grandparents' wedding. In 1891, was the parish church of Portsea St Thomas (Old Portsmouth, now Cathedral) or St Mary (what we always used to call Kingston), or somewhere else altogether? I'm not sure about parish changes in late C19 and someone please put me right! Anthony Parker.