Geoff I can confirm there are many ROGERS born 1888, I have print out of all (about 7 pages) would you like me to look up any for you. Cannot speak for Ancestry though Regards Patricia ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Eggleton" <tenniseggpaul@sbcglobal.net> To: <HAMPSHIRE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, December 30, 2005 9:02 PM Subject: Re: [Ham] Missing ancestors > Ancestry takes its records from freebmd and as we know that is not complete. It's quite possible that they have not completed a whole section for that year. > > Paul > > jeffers31 <jeffers31@tinyworld.co.uk> wrote: > I have recently submitted the following question to Ancestry.co.uk :- > > "I have searched the civil records for a ROGERS birth. In 1888 there were no ROGERS births, whereas in 1887 there were 1022 and in 1889 there were 1376. It seems unlikely that there were no births in 1888 for Rogers, can you confirm this? Your comments would be appreciated. > regards Geoff HIGGINS" (of Emsworth) > > I wondered whether any of our erudite members may have an explanation? > Happy searching in 2006 > GEOFF (researching PARGENT in Hampshire) > > > > ==== HAMPSHIRE Mailing List ==== > A genealogist NEVER dies he just grows more roots > > > > > > ==== HAMPSHIRE Mailing List ==== > A genealogist NEVER dies he just grows more roots >

Hi Linda and Tony, When I married, at the end of the 50's, neither my wife nor I were asked to produce any documents of proof of ourselves or the the place of residence at the time. We were, as it says in many records, "botp, of full age," with unknown witnesses and the fact that this was my wife's second marriage didn't enter into the conversation. It would appear that there wern't any objections after the Banns had been read three times. One of my children has a birth certificate showing my wife's maiden name as the mother, whilst another has 'formerly .....' entered as the mother. Fun and games for future generations - although we have the family history fairly well documented by now! Regards. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: <Knightroots@aol.com> To: <HAMPSHIRE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, December 30, 2005 3:48 PM Subject: [Ham] A query > Does anyone know whether when a person marries they have to prove their > identity to te vicar or Register Office? > Floowing on from that, if the bride to be had changed her name (not by > deed > poll or marriage) to something different from that shown on her birth > certificate, would this cause complications in proving who she was? > PS not us). > We look forward to replies, thanks Linda & Tony > > > ==== HAMPSHIRE Mailing List ==== > Visit the knightroots website at www.knightroots.co.uk > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.9/216 - Release Date: 29/12/2005 > >

Hi David Thanks for that information, I do think that the THOMAS FOXALL is my Gt.GT.Grandfather. Yes he was born in 1792 which makes his age correct, so I have just before Christmas ordered from the National Archives ADM 29/61/68 and having being waiting for the postman to deliver. I'll let you know what I find when the data arrives. Happy New Year Alan Foxall DAVID PARKER <parker3250@rogers.com> wrote: Hi Alan, Out of interest I tried some research on my Greenwich Pensioner theory. I found two references in the national archives to Thomas FOXALL RN. They are below. ADM 29 is a series of records that mainly comprises service records compiled by the Navy Pay Office from ships' musters and pay books in respect of ratings, warrant officers, and occasionally commissioned officers, from full and half pay registers, in support of applications made by servicemen for pensions, gratuities, medals. Also included are applications for the admittance of orphaned children into Greenwich Hospital School, the removal of the term 'run' (signifying desertion) entered inaccurately alongside an individual's entry in a ship's muster and applications for certificates of freedom (discharge documents) from foreigners or apprentices press ganged into the Royal Navy. Service records for Royal Marines, Coastguards, Dockyard workers, Sea Fencibles and Convict Guards - many of whom had previously ser! ved in the Royal Navy - making such applications can also be found in this series of records His dob, 1804 minus 13, would be 1891, which could be about right.. It may be of interest. David ADM29/61/67 Thomas FOXALL; Rating; Born: [Not Given]; Age on entry: 13; Dates served: 11 August 1804-28 April 1864; Date and Type of Application: Whitehall 25 April 1859 and others ADM29/62/68 Thomas FOXALL; Rating; Born: [Not Given]; Age on entry: 13; Dates served: 11 August 1804-28 April 1864; Date and Type of Application: Whitehall 25 April 1859 and others ==== HAMPSHIRE Mailing List ==== If all our ancestors were in a tree what a BIG tree -house that would be!

Thanks for your reply Michael unfortunately the surname we have doesn't relate to any other surnames or marriages in the family and no previous marriage took placeit, appears to have just been chosen. Must admit we didn't think we had needed to provide our birth certificates as any proof and checked with our eldest who married this year and neither of the parties needed to provide a proof of ID at their wedding either... Sounds like a flaw in the system bearing in mind our proof of identity appears to be needed for everything else but appears to be a historical one which has been going for years. Take care all, Linda & Tony

Hi Alan, Out of interest I tried some research on my Greenwich Pensioner theory. I found two references in the national archives to Thomas FOXALL RN. They are below. ADM 29 is a series of records that mainly comprises service records compiled by the Navy Pay Office from ships' musters and pay books in respect of ratings, warrant officers, and occasionally commissioned officers, from full and half pay registers, in support of applications made by servicemen for pensions, gratuities, medals. Also included are applications for the admittance of orphaned children into Greenwich Hospital School, the removal of the term 'run' (signifying desertion) entered inaccurately alongside an individual's entry in a ship's muster and applications for certificates of freedom (discharge documents) from foreigners or apprentices press ganged into the Royal Navy. Service records for Royal Marines, Coastguards, Dockyard workers, Sea Fencibles and Convict Guards - many of whom had previously ser! ved in the Royal Navy - making such applications can also be found in this series of records His dob, 1804 minus 13, would be 1891, which could be about right.. It may be of interest. David ADM29/61/67 Thomas FOXALL; Rating; Born: [Not Given]; Age on entry: 13; Dates served: 11 August 1804-28 April 1864; Date and Type of Application: Whitehall 25 April 1859 and others ADM29/62/68 Thomas FOXALL; Rating; Born: [Not Given]; Age on entry: 13; Dates served: 11 August 1804-28 April 1864; Date and Type of Application: Whitehall 25 April 1859 and others

Ancestry takes its records from freebmd and as we know that is not complete. It's quite possible that they have not completed a whole section for that year. Paul jeffers31 <jeffers31@tinyworld.co.uk> wrote: I have recently submitted the following question to Ancestry.co.uk :- "I have searched the civil records for a ROGERS birth. In 1888 there were no ROGERS births, whereas in 1887 there were 1022 and in 1889 there were 1376. It seems unlikely that there were no births in 1888 for Rogers, can you confirm this? Your comments would be appreciated. regards Geoff HIGGINS" (of Emsworth) I wondered whether any of our erudite members may have an explanation? Happy searching in 2006 GEOFF (researching PARGENT in Hampshire) ==== HAMPSHIRE Mailing List ==== A genealogist NEVER dies he just grows more roots

Hi, I borrowed this from another site -- perhaps interesting for those who have sailors in their blood~~~ Partners from organisations in London, Bristol, Southampton, Hartlepool and Liverpool have worked to create the site - www.portcities.org.uk - supported by the National Lottery good causes distributor, The New Opportunities Fund. Also try the excellent TheShips-L and Mariners-L. Cheers, Edna - Ottawa

I have recently submitted the following question to Ancestry.co.uk :- "I have searched the civil records for a ROGERS birth. In 1888 there were no ROGERS births, whereas in 1887 there were 1022 and in 1889 there were 1376. It seems unlikely that there were no births in 1888 for Rogers, can you confirm this? Your comments would be appreciated. regards Geoff HIGGINS" (of Emsworth) I wondered whether any of our erudite members may have an explanation? Happy searching in 2006 GEOFF (researching PARGENT in Hampshire)

Does anyone know whether when a person marries they have to prove their identity to te vicar or Register Office? Floowing on from that, if the bride to be had changed her name (not by deed poll or marriage) to something different from that shown on her birth certificate, would this cause complications in proving who she was? PS not us). We look forward to replies, thanks Linda & Tony

Hello Geoff. Ancestry use FreeBMD's records. I have checked on FreeBMD and they have approx. 55 Rogers Births for 1888, just for the county of Hants. On Ancestry none showed up so there must be an error with their searches. To double check I did the same search for 1888 Hants Marriages on FreeBMD and Ancestry and there were the same no on both.It will be interesting to read their reply. Regards Jean.

Thank you David, your idea of finding the senior officer worked after a fashion, the penny dropped once I realised that each battalion's senior officer signed the schedules at the end of the men under his command (this was in the margin right at the bottom of the relevant page). Anyway it would seem that my man was in the Rifle Brigade. Regards Colin -----Original Message----- From: DAVID PARKER [mailto:parker3250@rogers.com] Sent: Friday, December 30, 2005 1:07 AM To: HAMPSHIRE-L@rootsweb.com Cc: colin.harris4@btinternet.com Subject: Re: [Ham] Winchester Garrison 1861 I can give you two Colin; 1. 47th North Hampshire Regiment 2. 7th Depot Battalion Rifle Brigade When you searched the 1861, did you go back through the previous pages until you reached the senior officer? His regiment is usually named, and it is usually safe to assume that your relative would be in the same regiment. Secondments were not too common in those days. David ----- Original Message ----- From: "Colin Harris" <colin.harris4@btinternet.com> To: <HAMPSHIRE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2005 4:35 PM Subject: [Ham] Winchester Garrison 1861 > Compliments of the Season to everyone, > > Does anyone know which regiment's) were based in Winchester in 1861? > > I have found my Gt. Grandfather's brother Andrew GURDLER, together > with his wife > Eliza (nee HEDGES) and son Henry, listed in the garrison schedules for > the 1861 > census and would be interested in discovering his regiment (Ancestry > do not seem > to provide this information). > > Andrew is something of an enigma as he seems to have later left his > wife in > England and travelled to Australia in 1874, where he, apparently, > changed his > name to Richard Andrew GURDLER and married for a second time whilst > his first > wife was still alive and well back in England, the only explanation I > can think > of for this is that he set off with the intention of bringing his > family out > later on but changed his mind when he became involved with his second wife, whom > he did not marry until 2 years after their first child was born. > > Regards > > Colin Harris > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.9/216 - Release Date: 29/12/2005 > > > > > ==== HAMPSHIRE Mailing List ==== > If all our ancestors were in a tree what a BIG tree -house that would > be! > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.9/216 - Release Date: 29/12/2005

Colin this one is better http://www.winchestermilitarymuseums.co.uk/ Regards Sharon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Colin Harris" <colin.harris4@btinternet.com> To: <HAMPSHIRE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2005 9:35 PM Subject: [Ham] Winchester Garrison 1861 > Compliments of the Season to everyone, > > Does anyone know which regiment's) were based in Winchester in 1861? > > I have found my Gt. Grandfather's brother Andrew GURDLER, together with > his wife > Eliza (nee HEDGES) and son Henry, listed in the garrison schedules for the > 1861 > census and would be interested in discovering his regiment (Ancestry do > not seem > to provide this information). > > Andrew is something of an enigma as he seems to have later left his wife > in > England and travelled to Australia in 1874, where he, apparently, changed > his > name to Richard Andrew GURDLER and married for a second time whilst his > first > wife was still alive and well back in England, the only explanation I can > think > of for this is that he set off with the intention of bringing his family > out > later on but changed his mind when he became involved with his second > wife, whom > he did not marry until 2 years after their first child was born. > > Regards > > Colin Harris > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.9/216 - Release Date: 29/12/2005 > > > > > ==== HAMPSHIRE Mailing List ==== > If all our ancestors were in a tree what a BIG tree -house that would be! > >

colin, this site might be useful http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/militaryhistory/army/ kind regards Shafron ----- Original Message ----- From: "Colin Harris" <colin.harris4@btinternet.com> To: <HAMPSHIRE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2005 9:35 PM Subject: [Ham] Winchester Garrison 1861 > Compliments of the Season to everyone, > > Does anyone know which regiment's) were based in Winchester in 1861? > > I have found my Gt. Grandfather's brother Andrew GURDLER, together with > his wife > Eliza (nee HEDGES) and son Henry, listed in the garrison schedules for the > 1861 > census and would be interested in discovering his regiment (Ancestry do > not seem > to provide this information). > > Andrew is something of an enigma as he seems to have later left his wife > in > England and travelled to Australia in 1874, where he, apparently, changed > his > name to Richard Andrew GURDLER and married for a second time whilst his > first > wife was still alive and well back in England, the only explanation I can > think > of for this is that he set off with the intention of bringing his family > out > later on but changed his mind when he became involved with his second > wife, whom > he did not marry until 2 years after their first child was born. > > Regards > > Colin Harris > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.9/216 - Release Date: 29/12/2005 > > > > > ==== HAMPSHIRE Mailing List ==== > If all our ancestors were in a tree what a BIG tree -house that would be! > >

I've hit a wall with Sarah DYETT (b. 1835). I believe she had a child Ann Eliza in 1855 but I can find no record of a marriage, or a death. Ann appears living with her grandparents in 1861, no Sarah in sight. Same in 1871. I've looked for her in all relevant censuses and the BMD records to no avail. I wonder if SKS has access to the New Milton parish records and could look her up for me? I can only presume she died between 1855 and 1861. Please reply off-list. Thanks! Alan (in very hot Brisbane)

Compliments of the Season to everyone, Does anyone know which regiment's) were based in Winchester in 1861? I have found my Gt. Grandfather's brother Andrew GURDLER, together with his wife Eliza (nee HEDGES) and son Henry, listed in the garrison schedules for the 1861 census and would be interested in discovering his regiment (Ancestry do not seem to provide this information). Andrew is something of an enigma as he seems to have later left his wife in England and travelled to Australia in 1874, where he, apparently, changed his name to Richard Andrew GURDLER and married for a second time whilst his first wife was still alive and well back in England, the only explanation I can think of for this is that he set off with the intention of bringing his family out later on but changed his mind when he became involved with his second wife, whom he did not marry until 2 years after their first child was born. Regards Colin Harris -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.9/216 - Release Date: 29/12/2005

The occupation of one of my husband's great, great grandfathers was a coachman on his daughter's marriage certificate. I can't find a description of the job in one of the old occupations web sites. Has anyone any ideas on what his line of work would have been? Coach and horses perhaps between towns? Working for local lords of the manor? He died around 1850/1851 (his wife was described as a widow of 36 with 7 children in 1851 census, youngest 9 months). Any other websites giving old occupations? Many thanks for help. Mary Haskell, Slough, Berkshire Researching: HASKELL; WHITEAR Hampshire & Wiltshire CHIVERS,KNIGHT,KNELLER, BRICE; MORRIS; HOLDER; WHITE, PARKER; BELL; MOORE, BURTON; WITT; PERN; MOUNTAINE; COLE Hampshire WILSON, Surrey; BROWN Hants/Wilts, MATTINGLEY, Berks CARR Middlesex

Hi Alan Divorce would be highly unlikely at the time. I am reading a book about Horatio Nelson and it gives the reason for him abandoning his wife and not divorcing her for Emma Hamilton as the fact that to get a divorce would have required an act of Parliament! My grandfather divorved in Australia in the 1920's and it was quite unusual even then and was not an easy procedure, if there was any hint that both parties were in agreement then the divorce would not be granted. The normal procedure at the time was for the husband to commit (or appear to commit) adultery (there were apparently women who you could book into a hotel with so that witnesses could swear to adultery (even if it had not occurred). In my grandfather's case he didn't need to resort to this I understand as his wife had already got a boyfriend! Anyway the point is, that you can rule out divorce for your chap. It'd be interesting to know the real reason! Regards Jane -----Original Message----- From: ALAN FOXALL [mailto:alan.foxall@btinternet.com] Sent: Thursday, 29 December 2005 4:46 a.m. To: HAMPSHIRE-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [Ham] Married Twice Hi Linda & Tony Yes both the Fathers match on both certificates. Regarding the vows that what I oringally thought, but the first wedding was in Church and the second in the Register Office, so I tend to thing that is unlikely. The only other thought is that they got divorced and the re-married, but as a Seaman I would not have thought they had the money for that. Alan Knightroots@aol.com wrote: Possibly re establishing their vows in church. Presumably the fathers match on both ? (when you mention the age discrepancy just checking, but imagine they would be) Linda & Tony: I would welcome you comments or opinions on the following:- My Great Great Grandfather- Thomas William Foxall seems to have been married twice to the same woman. The first time was on July 6th 1845 @ the Parish Church of alverstoke (Sept Quarter Volume 7 Page 31) on the certificate for this marriage his wife Ann Jones nee Cleverley uses her widows name of Jones. Now nine years later on September 4,1854 @ Alverstoke Register Office (Sept Quarter volume 26 page 629) they seem to tie the knot again, although this time Ann sign in as Ann Cleverley. The major difference in the details of the certificates is Thomas's age is out by six years as he would have been 62 in 1854 and not 56 as shown on the second certificate. At face value there seems to be no reason to go through another wedding , but I would like any suggestion or opinions that might explain this occurance? Can I wish you all a very Happy New Year. Alan Foxall ==== HAMPSHIRE Mailing List ==== A genealogist NEVER dies he just grows more roots ==== HAMPSHIRE Mailing List ==== Spring clean your tree and see if you can dust off some new rellies Visit the knightroots website at www.knightroots.co.uk also Hampshire Look up Exchange at http://members.madasafish.com/~caroldolton/index.htm -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.7/180 - Release Date: 23/11/2005 -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.7/180 - Release Date: 23/11/2005

I can give you two Colin; 1. 47th North Hampshire Regiment 2. 7th Depot Battalion Rifle Brigade When you searched the 1861, did you go back through the previous pages until you reached the senior officer? His regiment is usually named, and it is usually safe to assume that your relative would be in the same regiment. Secondments were not too common in those days. David ----- Original Message ----- From: "Colin Harris" <colin.harris4@btinternet.com> To: <HAMPSHIRE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2005 4:35 PM Subject: [Ham] Winchester Garrison 1861 > Compliments of the Season to everyone, > > Does anyone know which regiment's) were based in Winchester in 1861? > > I have found my Gt. Grandfather's brother Andrew GURDLER, together with his wife > Eliza (nee HEDGES) and son Henry, listed in the garrison schedules for the 1861 > census and would be interested in discovering his regiment (Ancestry do not seem > to provide this information). > > Andrew is something of an enigma as he seems to have later left his wife in > England and travelled to Australia in 1874, where he, apparently, changed his > name to Richard Andrew GURDLER and married for a second time whilst his first > wife was still alive and well back in England, the only explanation I can think > of for this is that he set off with the intention of bringing his family out > later on but changed his mind when he became involved with his second wife, whom > he did not marry until 2 years after their first child was born. > > Regards > > Colin Harris > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.9/216 - Release Date: 29/12/2005 > > > > > ==== HAMPSHIRE Mailing List ==== > If all our ancestors were in a tree what a BIG tree -house that would be! >

What a group! I had more than enough replies and I thank you ALL so sincerely GAIL in Ontario

Hi Mary. I believe that there were a number classification of men who drove a horse drawn vehicle in the Victorian era. As their employment depended on the health of the horses - theirs or their employers - they would act as grooms as well as drivers. 1. Cabmen who drove a small passenger vehicle or hackney carriage for hire which were available in large cities in England and France since the 17thC 2. Coachmen who drove stagecoaches on longer journeys from town to town. Like the Hackney Carriages these were available from the mid 17th C 3. Carters who drove a horse drawn vehicle to transport goods. These were sometimes independent self-employed men. 4. Coachman usually employed by a family, for whom a coach and the number of coaches indicated their standing. These were often referred to as "Domestic Coachmen" and "outdoor servants". Their responsibilities could also include acting as a groom and/or guard. 5. Tram drivers - but that was after the period you quoted The census asked the individual to classify their occupation so one class may opt to list themselves as another. Hope that this helps a little David ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mary Haskell" <dh014a7479@blueyonder.co.uk> To: <HAMPSHIRE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2005 4:23 PM Subject: [Ham] James MOORE - coachman > The occupation of one of my husband's great, great grandfathers was a coachman on his daughter's marriage certificate. I can't find a description of the job in one of the old occupations web sites. Has anyone any ideas on what his line of work would have been? Coach and horses perhaps between towns? Working for local lords of the manor? He died around 1850/1851 (his wife was described as a widow of 36 with 7 children in 1851 census, youngest 9 months). Any other websites giving old occupations? > > Many thanks for help. Mary Haskell, Slough, Berkshire > Researching: > HASKELL; WHITEAR Hampshire & Wiltshire > CHIVERS,KNIGHT,KNELLER, BRICE; MORRIS; HOLDER; WHITE, PARKER; BELL; MOORE, BURTON; > WITT; PERN; MOUNTAINE; COLE Hampshire > WILSON, Surrey; > BROWN Hants/Wilts, > MATTINGLEY, Berks > CARR Middlesex > > > ==== HAMPSHIRE Mailing List ==== > Parish Register transcriptions for some parishes are available on line at www.knightroots.co.uk - click "parish registers" >