This is mere speculation, but I thought that I would throw this out on the Gwin, Kincaid and Lockridge lists to see your reaction. As many of you know, G. W. Cleek in his Early Western Augusta Pioneers states that Robert Gwin of the Calfpasture was married to Jean Kincaid, daughter of David Kincaid (or Kinkead) of Albemarle County. The problem is no one has been able to prove the existence of this Jean. Jean is also supposed to be a sister of an Isabella Kincaid who married James Lockridge. But James Lockridge is a much older man and the timelines just do not work out. In addition, David Kincaid's will does not mention either a Jean or an Isabella. So ... we have all been looking for a Jean without much success. Mr. Cleek also states that Robert had two daughters, Agnes Gwinn (who married William Lockridge) and Nell Gwin This evening, I was taking another look at Holly Wanless Cochran's excellent Gwin website (http://www.riverduck.com/genealogy/gwin/index.html) when another thought occured to me. (Holly I hope you don't mind me quoting from your website.) Holly raises the possibility that Nell Gwin is a sister of Robert Gwin, Sr. To quote: "[Cleek p.96] says she was a dau. of Robert. However, the dates don't make sense for this - she's more of an age to be his sister. Katrin Queen, 10th December, 1746, examined before justices charged with stealing a silver plate belonging to David Kinked and Winefer Kinked, his wife. Witnesses summoned to testify to character of Nell Guin. To be summoned: Margaret Gay, Patrick McDonald and Mary, his wife, and Elizabeth Thompson. Bond by John Tillery, of Albemarle County, bricklayer. David Kinked, of said county, joyner, and William Wright, of Augusta, farmer. John Tillery. [Chalkley vol 1, p.431] If Robert Gwin did marry Jean Kincaid, and Nell is his daughter, then David & Winnefred Kinkead may be Nell's grandparents. But if Nell is involved in a trial in 1746, doesn't that means she's an adult, i.e. born before 1725 or so? Then she could not be Robert's daughter after all. Note Katrin/Catherine Queen has an extensive history of petty crime in Chalkley and was finally ordered to leave the county. I still wonder if Queen is a corruption of Guinn..." I don't know why this never occured to me before. Holly is correct, Nell is the age to be his sister. But ... she is also the age to be his wife! Could Nell Gwin be the wife of Robert Gwin of the Calfpasture????? Best wishes! Ron Gwinn

For the age of Nell Guinn....at that time in the mid 1700s..a child over ten could be tried as an adult. They also worked the same hours...But did not get the same pay. I do not know when Children were given protective rights, but I am pretty sure it wasn't in the mid 1700s. Of course it may be different in the United States. (I'm from Canada). Also, at that time, it was still a British Colony, as the American Revolution didn't happen for another twenty years or so...So I think British Law would have applied there as well as Canada. Just a thought. I've been following the email with great interest...I don't know where my Gwinn connection is to these Guins...Mine were from Saline Co., Missouri, but it is great to see such enthusiasm! Sue..from Canada. ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2002 6:32 PM Subject: Speculation on the Wife of Robert Gwin of the Calfpasture > This is mere speculation, but I thought that I would throw this out on the > Gwin, Kincaid and Lockridge lists to see your reaction. As many of you know, > G. W. Cleek in his Early Western Augusta Pioneers states that Robert Gwin of > the Calfpasture was married to Jean Kincaid, daughter of David Kincaid (or > Kinkead) of Albemarle County. The problem is no one has been able to prove > the existence of this Jean. Jean is also supposed to be a sister of an > Isabella Kincaid who married James Lockridge. But James Lockridge is a much > older man and the timelines just do not work out. In addition, David > Kincaid's will does not mention either a Jean or an Isabella. So ... we have > all been looking for a Jean without much success. > > Mr. Cleek also states that Robert had two daughters, Agnes Gwinn (who married > William Lockridge) and Nell Gwin > > This evening, I was taking another look at Holly Wanless Cochran's excellent > Gwin website (http://www.riverduck.com/genealogy/gwin/index.html) when > another thought occured to me. (Holly I hope you don't mind me quoting from > your website.) > > Holly raises the possibility that Nell Gwin is a sister of Robert Gwin, Sr. > To quote: > > "[Cleek p.96] says she was a dau. of Robert. However, the dates don't make > sense for this - she's more of an age to be his sister. > > Katrin Queen, 10th December, 1746, examined before justices charged with > stealing a silver plate belonging to David Kinked and Winefer Kinked, his > wife. Witnesses summoned to testify to character of Nell Guin. To be > summoned: Margaret Gay, Patrick McDonald and Mary, his wife, and Elizabeth > Thompson. Bond by John Tillery, of Albemarle County, bricklayer. David > Kinked, of said county, joyner, and William Wright, of Augusta, farmer. John > Tillery. [Chalkley vol 1, p.431] > > If Robert Gwin did marry Jean Kincaid, and Nell is his daughter, then David & > Winnefred Kinkead may be Nell's grandparents. But if Nell is involved in a > trial in 1746, doesn't that means she's an adult, i.e. born before 1725 or > so? Then she could not be Robert's daughter after all. Note Katrin/Catherine > Queen has an extensive history of petty crime in Chalkley and was finally > ordered to leave the county. I still wonder if Queen is a corruption of > Guinn..." > > I don't know why this never occured to me before. Holly is correct, Nell is > the age to be his sister. But ... she is also the age to be his wife! Could > Nell Gwin be the wife of Robert Gwin of the Calfpasture????? > > Best wishes! Ron Gwinn > > > ============================== > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 >

Ron, I just came across a will I had forgotten I had. This is in Pennsylvania in 1753, but the names are familiar. This is from a line of my Guinns (an ancestor of Catherine Ann Dobson who married James Washington Guinn, son of John Guinn and Rachel Shields in Greene Co., TN). This line of my cousins says this ancestor is "Alexander Quee", but I am betting it is "Alexander Queen" - possibly the old handwriting was not easy to read, and the person transcribing did not see an "n" on the end of Queen. He gives part of his land to a son, the land adjoining "ye land of Joseph Kindca". What if that name is really Kincaid? If so, we have a Queen and Kincaid living next to each other. These could be ancestors of the Augusta Co. Queens and Kincaids. This Alexander "Quee" has a daughter named Katrin Jenkins, so she would have been Katrin Quee(n) at one time. So I think that Queen is not a variation of Guinn. Cindy Hartman Katrin Queen, 10th December, 1746, examined before justices charged with stealing a silver plate belonging to David Kinked and Winefer Kinked, his wife. Witnesses summoned to testify to character of Nell Guin. To be summoned: Margaret Gay, Patrick McDonald and Mary, his wife, and Elizabeth Thompson. Bond by John Tillery, of Albemarle County, bricklayer. David Kinked, of said county, joyner, and William Wright, of Augusta, farmer. John Tillery. [Chalkley vol 1, p.431] If Robert Gwin did marry Jean Kincaid, and Nell is his daughter, then David & Winnefred Kinkead may be Nell's grandparents. But if Nell is involved in a trial in 1746, doesn't that means she's an adult, i.e. born before 1725 or so? Then she could not be Robert's daughter after all. Note Katrin/Catherine Queen has an extensive history of petty crime in Chalkley and was finally ordered to leave the county. I still wonder if Queen is a corruption of Guinn..."

Here's a thought--say the name Guinn with a Scottish brogue. ?? This stuff really is a dilemma, huh? I wouldn't discount too much of Mr. Cleek's history, though. The Cleek's (a part of my husband's family) still live in the area. There is a lot of OLD oral history there. A Lillian Kinkead and Jacob Cleek still live across the road from each other in Bolar, VA. They are in their 80's. Sharon Guynn Wiley P.S. I am a southern TN Guinn and my husband's great grandmother was Nancy Gwin, daughter of Captain David Gwin. I have researched only his direct line, not the aunts, uncles, etc. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cindy & Steve Hartman" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2002 8:13 PM Subject: Re: Speculation on the Wife of Robert Gwin of the Calfpasture > Ron, > I just came across a will I had forgotten I had. This is in Pennsylvania in 1753, but the names are familiar. This is from a line of my Guinns (an ancestor of Catherine Ann Dobson who married James Washington Guinn, son of John Guinn and Rachel Shields in Greene Co., TN). This line of my cousins says this ancestor is "Alexander Quee", but I am betting it is "Alexander Queen" - possibly the old handwriting was not easy to read, and the person transcribing did not see an "n" on the end of Queen. He gives part of his land to a son, the land adjoining "ye land of Joseph Kindca". What if that name is really Kincaid? If so, we have a Queen and Kincaid living next to each other. These could be ancestors of the Augusta Co. Queens and Kincaids. This Alexander "Quee" has a daughter named Katrin Jenkins, so she would have been Katrin Quee(n) at one time. So I think that Queen is not a variation of Guinn. > > Cindy Hartman > Katrin Queen, 10th December, 1746, examined before justices charged with > stealing a silver plate belonging to David Kinked and Winefer Kinked, his > wife. Witnesses summoned to testify to character of Nell Guin. To be > summoned: Margaret Gay, Patrick McDonald and Mary, his wife, and Elizabeth > Thompson. Bond by John Tillery, of Albemarle County, bricklayer. David > Kinked, of said county, joyner, and William Wright, of Augusta, farmer. John > Tillery. [Chalkley vol 1, p.431] > > If Robert Gwin did marry Jean Kincaid, and Nell is his daughter, then David & > Winnefred Kinkead may be Nell's grandparents. But if Nell is involved in a > trial in 1746, doesn't that means she's an adult, i.e. born before 1725 or > so? Then she could not be Robert's daughter after all. Note Katrin/Catherine > Queen has an extensive history of petty crime in Chalkley and was finally > ordered to leave the county. I still wonder if Queen is a corruption of > Guinn..." > > > > > ============================== > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237

Hi, Sharon, Was just re-reading your family info a few minutes ago. I don't remember if I told you that my husband knew a Ward Cleek in WV. He was the manager of a lodge that my father-in-law's company owned in White Sulphur Springs, WV. The info you sent says the Cleeks in Rob's family moved to Pocahontas Co., and that is next door to Greenbriar, where White Sulphur Springs is located. I am betting that Steve knew one of your distant relatives. I think you are right - we cannot discount too much of the old oral history. If Queen is in fact a corruption of Guinn/Gwin, then it may have became a completely separate line. I have another friend who has Queen ancestors from VA. Cindy ----- Original Message ----- From: Sharon Wiley To: [email protected] Sent: Monday, April 08, 2002 9:48 AM Subject: Re: Speculation on the Wife of Robert Gwin of the Calfpasture Here's a thought--say the name Guinn with a Scottish brogue. ?? This stuff really is a dilemma, huh? I wouldn't discount too much of Mr. Cleek's history, though. The Cleek's (a part of my husband's family) still live in the area. There is a lot of OLD oral history there. A Lillian Kinkead and Jacob Cleek still live across the road from each other in Bolar, VA. They are in their 80's. Sharon Guynn Wiley P.S. I am a southern TN Guinn and my husband's great grandmother was Nancy Gwin, daughter of Captain David Gwin. I have researched only his direct line, not the aunts, uncles, etc.

Ron, Stir the soup! Since we are speculating. To some researchers, Robert Gwin Sr. father--was another Robert Gwin. And since Nell is said to be both daughter & sister and maybe even a wife of Robert Sr. [below]. Since we are speculating on dates too, could Nell be the wife of the other (father) Robert and that would make Nell--Robert Gwin Sr. his mother. Cleek would then be right, but I doubt it. (Witnesses summoned to testify to character of Nell Guin.) What does 'character' encompass? [Dictionary: All those qualities that make a person. . .,a person's moral nature, moral strength, a noticeable or eccentric person, etc.] Maybe Nell needed some [ah] help! Therefore, we speculate, Robert Gwin Sr. mother could be born about 1700 [somewhere in this world] and be about 46 to 50 years old in 1746 for the trial. Robert Sr. would be about 26 to 30 years old, with David, Samuel, James, [& who knows] born, and Joseph, Agnes, Robert,Jr. and others to be born later! Just a thought. Remember, just speculating. Harry ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2002 7:32 PM Subject: Speculation on the Wife of Robert Gwin of the Calfpasture > This is mere speculation, but I thought that I would throw this out on the > Gwin, Kincaid and Lockridge lists to see your reaction. As many of you know, > G. W. Cleek in his Early Western Augusta Pioneers states that Robert Gwin of > the Calfpasture was married to Jean Kincaid, daughter of David Kincaid (or > Kinkead) of Albemarle County. The problem is no one has been able to prove > the existence of this Jean. Jean is also supposed to be a sister of an > Isabella Kincaid who married James Lockridge. But James Lockridge is a much > older man and the timelines just do not work out. In addition, David > Kincaid's will does not mention either a Jean or an Isabella. So ... we have > all been looking for a Jean without much success. > > Mr. Cleek also states that Robert had two daughters, Agnes Gwinn (who married > William Lockridge) and Nell Gwin > > This evening, I was taking another look at Holly Wanless Cochran's excellent > Gwin website (http://www.riverduck.com/genealogy/gwin/index.html) when > another thought occured to me. (Holly I hope you don't mind me quoting from > your website.) > > Holly raises the possibility that Nell Gwin is a sister of Robert Gwin, Sr. > To quote: > > "[Cleek p.96] says she was a dau. of Robert. However, the dates don't make > sense for this - she's more of an age to be his sister. > > Katrin Queen, 10th December, 1746, examined before justices charged with > stealing a silver plate belonging to David Kinked and Winefer Kinked, his > wife. Witnesses summoned to testify to character of Nell Guin. To be > summoned: Margaret Gay, Patrick McDonald and Mary, his wife, and Elizabeth > Thompson. Bond by John Tillery, of Albemarle County, bricklayer. David > Kinked, of said county, joyner, and William Wright, of Augusta, farmer. John > Tillery. [Chalkley vol 1, p.431] > > If Robert Gwin did marry Jean Kincaid, and Nell is his daughter, then David & > Winnefred Kinkead may be Nell's grandparents. But if Nell is involved in a > trial in 1746, doesn't that means she's an adult, i.e. born before 1725 or > so? Then she could not be Robert's daughter after all. Note Katrin/Catherine > Queen has an extensive history of petty crime in Chalkley and was finally > ordered to leave the county. I still wonder if Queen is a corruption of > Guinn..." > > I don't know why this never occured to me before. Holly is correct, Nell is > the age to be his sister. But ... she is also the age to be his wife! Could > Nell Gwin be the wife of Robert Gwin of the Calfpasture????? > > Best wishes! Ron Gwinn