Please forgive me as I hate to be the killjoy of the list , but here goes ... First, and most important, not all Gwins, Gwyns, or Wynns are related—in fact there are probably multiple entirely unrelated Gwin lines. The surname arose from the descriptive nickname “gwyn” that was later adopted in some cases as a family name and not from a single family descended from Owain, Prince of Gwynedd. The Gwin family descent from Owain, Prince of Gwynedd, as contained in the “The Prehistoric Kings of Britain” is a pseudo-genealogy with little relationship to fact. It even mangles the names of important historical figures—for example, Gwenedda Whedig is really Cunedda the Great aka Cunedda Gwledig (in modern English this would be “Kenneth the Landholder”). See http://www.bardsongpress.com/cunedda.htm This pseudo-genealogy is often sited in various works including Jesse Blaine Gwin’s History of the Gwin Family. Here are two of the problems with this genealogy: 1. The Claimed Descent of Sir John Wynn of Gwydir from the Princes of Gwynedd: This part of the pseudo-genealogy is traceable to Sir John Wynn himself. Around 1580 Sir John Wynn wrote the History of the Gwydir Family and Memoirs. This work provides a rare and fascinating look at the rising power and times of an Elizabethan gentry family—the Wynns of Gwydir. In his History, Sir John claims a lineage that dates back several centuries to Owain ap Gruffydd, Prince of Gwynedd and Gruffydd ap Cynan, King of Gwynedd (c1055-1137). However, scholars agree that this lineage was “made up” to increase the political and personal prestige of Sir John and his family. Here is a quote from the introduction to the 1990 Gomer Press publication of the Sir John’s History by J. Gwynfor Jones, Senior Lecturer in Welsh History in the School of History and Archaeology, University of Wales College of Cardiff: “Sir John Wynn’s kinsmen could really only have traced their ancestry and ascendancy to a group of free-holders from Pennant and Penyfed townships in fourteenth-century Eifionydd, though he himself would have his readers believe that his stock had descended from Gruffudd ap Cynan.” The genealogical carving memorialized in the chapel at Gwydir is based on this pseudo-genealogy claimed by Sir John Wynn Here is a link to the Gwydir Castle website http://www.gwydir-castle.co.uk/index.htm for more information on the “castle” and the influential Wynns of Gwydir. 2. The Undocumented Descent of Current Day Gwin Families in America from Sir John Wynn. The pseudo-genealogy attempts to claim Colonel Hugh Gwyn (or Gwin) of Gwynn’s Island, Virginia (c1690s) as a descendent of Sir John Wynn of Gwydir. However, there is no documentation of this and we also know that Sir John’s male line died out! No one has to date successfully identified and documented the ancestors of Colonel Hugh Gwyn of Virginia. Sir John Wynn had an uncle John Gwynn of St. John’s College, Cambridge. It is possible that some American Gwins may be descended from this John Gwynn—but this is only speculation on my part. As late as the nineteenth-century, in the United Kingdom, there were Gwynn gentry families that could, I believe, legitimately trace their ancestry to the ancient Princes of Powys and some that claimed descent from the Irish-born chieftain and sub-King of Brecknock, Brychan Brycheiniog. I don’t know if any of these families continue to this day and again, there is no documented link to any American Gwins or Gwyns. Best wishes! Ron Gwinn -----Original Message----- From: Paul Gwynn <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 15:54:59 -0500 Subject: RE: Origin of the Gwinn, Gwyn, Guin name I have done a lot of research on the Gwynn/Gwinn lines, all spellings and the name variation can be traced back to Owain Gwynedd, the common ancestor of both lines. I had a rich uncle who years ago spent a ton of money to have the name researched and what he found was that Owain Gwynedd was the common ancestor of both lines and was married twice. First to Glawdys, from which the Gwynn/Gwinn line springs and secondly to his cousin Christian. From his first marriage to Glawdys, the main Gwynn line is continued through his son Iowerth. From his marriage to Christian springs the Wynn/Winn lines In those days, you did not want to be the bastard son or daughter of anyone, so to prevent this, Owain Gwynedds decendents of his second marriage dropped the G from the name and were forever afterward known as the Wynn/Winn line. I verified much of this on a trip to the ancestrial home of both lines, Llanwrst, Wales in 2001. I visited Gwydir Castle as well as Gwydir Chapel where Llwellyn the Great is buried in the floor. Fantastic trip. Unfortunately, Gwydir castle is not longer in possession of any one in the Gwynn/Gwinn/Wynn/Winn lines and has been purchased by some other people who have no relationship to the history or the family. Here in it's entirety is the documentation he was given: "The Prehistoric Kings of Britain" 1, Gwenedda Whedig, King of Cumberland, 328 A.D., founder of the Holy Tribe of Britain, first cousin to Constantine the Great, Emperor of Rome, had; 2, Einion Yrth; 3, Caswallawn Lawhir; 4, Maclgwyn Gwynedd; 5, Rhun; 6, Beli; 7, King Iago; 8, Cadvan, King; 9, Cadwaladyr Vindigouel, last King of the Britons, died at Rome in 688 A.D.; 10, Idwal Iurch; 11, Rhodri Molynog, 720 A.D.; 12, Cynan Tyndoethny; 13, Mervyn, King of Manessylt; 14, Rhodri Mawr; 15, Merig Ieuanf; 16, Idwal; 17, Iago, 18, Prince Cynan; 19, Gruffydd; 20, Owain Gwynedd, XI century, first married Glawdys, daughter of Llowarch ap Trahaern, Lord of Pembroke. He married secondly, his cousin Christian, from who was issued the Wynns of Gwydir Llanrwst, of whom the present representatives are Earls and Ancaster; Carrington and Sir W. Wynn, Bart. Here is shown that the Gwynns and Wynns are of the same ancestry, both issued from Owain Gwynedd, the Wynns coming from his second marriage to his cousin, Christian. From his first marriage to Glawdys, the main Gwynn line is continued through his son Iowerth. 21, Prince Iowerth Drwyndwn; 22, Prince Llewelyn, 23, Prince Gruffydd = first Eleanor, daughter of Simon Montfort, and wife, Eleanor, daughter of King John of England, and wife, Isabella de la Marche; 24, Prince Llwelyn, killed by treachery at Bulith, A.D. 1282 = Eleanor, daughter of Princess Eleanor and Henri Compta de Bari, daughter of Edward I, King of England, and wife Eleanor, daughter of Ferdinand III, King of Castile; 25, Princess Eleanor (Goch); 26, Thomas = Princess Catherine; 27, Lady Eleanor, eldest daughter and representative of the Princes of Wales = Gruffydd Nyehan, Lord of Glyntfrdy; 27, Margaret, younger sister and co-heiress = Sir Tudar ap Grono of Pennrynydd, junior line to Henry VII of England. 28, Owain Glyndwr, elder representative of the Princes of Wales, crowned at Mochyulleth; 28, Tudor Glyndwr, second son; junior representative of the Princes of Wales, killed in battle in 1405 = Maude, daughter and heiress to Ienaf ap Hywel, to Tudor Trevor; 29, Gruffydd, and 29, Moredydd, sons of Owain Glyndwr (See Mss of Powy's Fadog and Taicrocsion Mss.). Gruffydd ap Einon of Kors-y-Gedol = Louri, and had Isan Gruffydd, eldest son, and Tudyr. From the two eldest came many American families, among others the Winns and Lloyds, of Philadelphia. From Sir John Wynn, knight and baronet, came Captain Owin Gwynn, ancestor of this branch of the family. To the memory of his father, Sir John Wynn, and wife Sidney Gerard, is erected a tablet in Gwydir Chapel, Llanrwst, in which may be found many tablets confirming this pedigree. (Ref: Meade's "Old Churches and Families," Brown's Genesis of U.S.," and "Cabells and Their Kin")." Sometimes the change in spelling was made in Europe before the family migrated and sometimes after arrival in America. There are few surnames in America, the spelling of which, have not been changed many times. While the roots of our system of family names may be traced to civilized times, actually the hereditary surname as we know it today dates from a time scarcely earlier than 900 years ago. True surnames in the sense of hereditary designations date in England from about 1000 A.D., but even by 1465, hereditary names were not universal. During the reign of Edward V, a law was passed to compel Irish tribes to adopt surnames. Many surnames of today which are difficult to classify or explain are corruption's of ancient forms. Longfellow, for example, was originally Longueville, Diggers was Douglas, Winch was Renshaw, and Gwynn and Wynn were Gwynedd. Variations have resulted from ignorance in spelling variations in pronunciation or merely from preference. Those Americans who possess old and honored names and who can trace the history of their surnames back to sturdy immigrant ancestors or even beyond to the old world and into the dim past, should be proud of their heritage. There were many Gwynns among the early pioneers. We should all be interested in tracing our family lines and in learning the history of our ancestors, for genealogical study represents an interesting and intriguing approach to the history of our country. A study of the individual family records, and certainly a study of the Gwynns, makes our pioneer history come alive. Additionally, it is our heritage, and our past, our legacy to our children. It is a part of who we are and where we came from. Hope this helps. Paul Gwynn [email protected] -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 3:28 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Origin of the Gwinn, Gwyn, Guin name Hi Terry-- My understanding is that the existance of the surname Wynn is because of a mutation that regularly occurs in the Welsh and other Celtic languanges where certain consonants are dropped off or replaced by another. Here is an example of the "G" being dropped: gafr = a goat ei afr = his goat Here is a link to a website that explains how mutations work---but be warned it is complex. It gives me a headache just thinking about it! http://www.clwbmalucachu.co.uk/cheat/cheat_mutations.htm -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Sent: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 15:46:20 EDT Subject: Re: Origin of the Gwinn, Gwyn, Guin name If memory serves, the names of father/ son changed from generation to generation in Welsh naming patterns. The father was a Gwinn his son's surname would be a Winn the son of that Winn would have the surname of Gwinn. I was told this on trip to Wales some years ago. Terry Coats Nashville TN ============================== New! Family Tree Maker 2005. Build your tree and search for your ancestors at the same time. Share your tree with family and friends. Learn more: http://landing.ancestry.com/familytreemaker/2005/tour.aspx?sourceid=14599&ta rgetid=5429 ============================== Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your family and the areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the last 12 months. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx ============================== New! Family Tree Maker 2005. Build your tree and search for your ancestors at the same time. Share your tree with family and friends. Learn more: http://landing.ancestry.com/familytreemaker/2005/tour.aspx?sourceid=14599&targetid=5429

Ron, No offense taken and it was not my intention to stir up controversy, just share with others what I had. To me, and this is a personal thing, the origin of the Gwynn/Gwinn name is less important to me than who my ancestors were. And, if I can document them, I don't care if my ggggggg grandfathers name was Virgil Scruggs. I am interested in the genealogy of my line, not the history of the family name. That is where I am coming from. And you are quite right, Jesse Blaine Gwin's book does indeed continue the genealogy of the Ancient Kings of Britain. For me, whether or not it is true is less important that the fact it give me a reference point from which to work to or from. Whether it pans out to be correct or not is not of value to me. All I am interested in is who "my" ancestors are, wherever they came from and whatever name they had. In fact, once I find a direct ancestor, female, then the direct ancestoral line is broken at that point, and I become an ancestor by marriage only and not a direct ancestor. So to me, documentation on one's true ancestors is more valuable that where the "name" might have orginated from. I was only giving the group what my uncle had been given all those years ago. I have not verified anything other than my direct line and those that might be ancestors yet undocumented. It was not my intention to stir up controvery. However, I might point out one salient point. As Johnny Depp pointed out as Jack Sparrow in Pirates of the Caribbean, "Where do the stories come from then, I wonder". Well, prior to 1600, there weren't any Gwynns/Gwinns, etc. in America, just Native Americans. So hey had to come from somewhere. And since most of the earliest colonist came from Europe and Great Britain, one of them must have come here, even if no one has "found" the connection yet............ Paul -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2005 11:17 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Alleged Descent of Gwins from Owain ap Gruffydd, Prince of Gwynnedd (d. 1170) Please forgive me as I hate to be the killjoy of the list , but here goes ... First, and most important, not all Gwins, Gwyns, or Wynns are related—in fact there are probably multiple entirely unrelated Gwin lines. The surname arose from the descriptive nickname “gwyn” that was later adopted in some cases as a family name and not from a single family descended from Owain, Prince of Gwynedd. The Gwin family descent from Owain, Prince of Gwynedd, as contained in the “The Prehistoric Kings of Britain” is a pseudo-genealogy with little relationship to fact. It even mangles the names of important historical figures—for example, Gwenedda Whedig is really Cunedda the Great aka Cunedda Gwledig (in modern English this would be “Kenneth the Landholder”). See http://www.bardsongpress.com/cunedda.htm This pseudo-genealogy is often sited in various works including Jesse Blaine Gwin’s History of the Gwin Family. Here are two of the problems with this genealogy: 1. The Claimed Descent of Sir John Wynn of Gwydir from the Princes of Gwynedd: This part of the pseudo-genealogy is traceable to Sir John Wynn himself. Around 1580 Sir John Wynn wrote the History of the Gwydir Family and Memoirs. This work provides a rare and fascinating look at the rising power and times of an Elizabethan gentry family—the Wynns of Gwydir. In his History, Sir John claims a lineage that dates back several centuries to Owain ap Gruffydd, Prince of Gwynedd and Gruffydd ap Cynan, King of Gwynedd (c1055-1137). However, scholars agree that this lineage was “made up” to increase the political and personal prestige of Sir John and his family. Here is a quote from the introduction to the 1990 Gomer Press publication of the Sir John’s History by J. Gwynfor Jones, Senior Lecturer in Welsh History in the School of History and Archaeology, University of Wales College of Cardiff: “Sir John Wynn’s kinsmen could really only have traced their ancestry and ascendancy to a group of free-holders from Pennant and Penyfed townships in fourteenth-century Eifionydd, though he himself would have his readers believe that his stock had descended from Gruffudd ap Cynan.” The genealogical carving memorialized in the chapel at Gwydir is based on this pseudo-genealogy claimed by Sir John Wynn Here is a link to the Gwydir Castle website http://www.gwydir-castle.co.uk/index.htm for more information on the “castle” and the influential Wynns of Gwydir. 2. The Undocumented Descent of Current Day Gwin Families in America from Sir John Wynn. The pseudo-genealogy attempts to claim Colonel Hugh Gwyn (or Gwin) of Gwynn’s Island, Virginia (c1690s) as a descendent of Sir John Wynn of Gwydir. However, there is no documentation of this and we also know that Sir John’s male line died out! No one has to date successfully identified and documented the ancestors of Colonel Hugh Gwyn of Virginia. Sir John Wynn had an uncle John Gwynn of St. John’s College, Cambridge. It is possible that some American Gwins may be descended from this John Gwynn—but this is only speculation on my part. As late as the nineteenth-century, in the United Kingdom, there were Gwynn gentry families that could, I believe, legitimately trace their ancestry to the ancient Princes of Powys and some that claimed descent from the Irish-born chieftain and sub-King of Brecknock, Brychan Brycheiniog. I don’t know if any of these families continue to this day and again, there is no documented link to any American Gwins or Gwyns. Best wishes! Ron Gwinn -----Original Message----- From: Paul Gwynn <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 15:54:59 -0500 Subject: RE: Origin of the Gwinn, Gwyn, Guin name I have done a lot of research on the Gwynn/Gwinn lines, all spellings and the name variation can be traced back to Owain Gwynedd, the common ancestor of both lines. I had a rich uncle who years ago spent a ton of money to have the name researched and what he found was that Owain Gwynedd was the common ancestor of both lines and was married twice. First to Glawdys, from which the Gwynn/Gwinn line springs and secondly to his cousin Christian. From his first marriage to Glawdys, the main Gwynn line is continued through his son Iowerth. From his marriage to Christian springs the Wynn/Winn lines In those days, you did not want to be the bastard son or daughter of anyone, so to prevent this, Owain Gwynedds decendents of his second marriage dropped the G from the name and were forever afterward known as the Wynn/Winn line. I verified much of this on a trip to the ancestrial home of both lines, Llanwrst, Wales in 2001. I visited Gwydir Castle as well as Gwydir Chapel where Llwellyn the Great is buried in the floor. Fantastic trip. Unfortunately, Gwydir castle is not longer in possession of any one in the Gwynn/Gwinn/Wynn/Winn lines and has been purchased by some other people who have no relationship to the history or the family. Here in it's entirety is the documentation he was given: "The Prehistoric Kings of Britain" 1, Gwenedda Whedig, King of Cumberland, 328 A.D., founder of the Holy Tribe of Britain, first cousin to Constantine the Great, Emperor of Rome, had; 2, Einion Yrth; 3, Caswallawn Lawhir; 4, Maclgwyn Gwynedd; 5, Rhun; 6, Beli; 7, King Iago; 8, Cadvan, King; 9, Cadwaladyr Vindigouel, last King of the Britons, died at Rome in 688 A.D.; 10, Idwal Iurch; 11, Rhodri Molynog, 720 A.D.; 12, Cynan Tyndoethny; 13, Mervyn, King of Manessylt; 14, Rhodri Mawr; 15, Merig Ieuanf; 16, Idwal; 17, Iago, 18, Prince Cynan; 19, Gruffydd; 20, Owain Gwynedd, XI century, first married Glawdys, daughter of Llowarch ap Trahaern, Lord of Pembroke. He married secondly, his cousin Christian, from who was issued the Wynns of Gwydir Llanrwst, of whom the present representatives are Earls and Ancaster; Carrington and Sir W. Wynn, Bart. Here is shown that the Gwynns and Wynns are of the same ancestry, both issued from Owain Gwynedd, the Wynns coming from his second marriage to his cousin, Christian. From his first marriage to Glawdys, the main Gwynn line is continued through his son Iowerth. 21, Prince Iowerth Drwyndwn; 22, Prince Llewelyn, 23, Prince Gruffydd = first Eleanor, daughter of Simon Montfort, and wife, Eleanor, daughter of King John of England, and wife, Isabella de la Marche; 24, Prince Llwelyn, killed by treachery at Bulith, A.D. 1282 = Eleanor, daughter of Princess Eleanor and Henri Compta de Bari, daughter of Edward I, King of England, and wife Eleanor, daughter of Ferdinand III, King of Castile; 25, Princess Eleanor (Goch); 26, Thomas = Princess Catherine; 27, Lady Eleanor, eldest daughter and representative of the Princes of Wales = Gruffydd Nyehan, Lord of Glyntfrdy; 27, Margaret, younger sister and co-heiress = Sir Tudar ap Grono of Pennrynydd, junior line to Henry VII of England. 28, Owain Glyndwr, elder representative of the Princes of Wales, crowned at Mochyulleth; 28, Tudor Glyndwr, second son; junior representative of the Princes of Wales, killed in battle in 1405 = Maude, daughter and heiress to Ienaf ap Hywel, to Tudor Trevor; 29, Gruffydd, and 29, Moredydd, sons of Owain Glyndwr (See Mss of Powy's Fadog and Taicrocsion Mss.). Gruffydd ap Einon of Kors-y-Gedol = Louri, and had Isan Gruffydd, eldest son, and Tudyr. From the two eldest came many American families, among others the Winns and Lloyds, of Philadelphia. From Sir John Wynn, knight and baronet, came Captain Owin Gwynn, ancestor of this branch of the family. To the memory of his father, Sir John Wynn, and wife Sidney Gerard, is erected a tablet in Gwydir Chapel, Llanrwst, in which may be found many tablets confirming this pedigree. (Ref: Meade's "Old Churches and Families," Brown's Genesis of U.S.," and "Cabells and Their Kin")." Sometimes the change in spelling was made in Europe before the family migrated and sometimes after arrival in America. There are few surnames in America, the spelling of which, have not been changed many times. While the roots of our system of family names may be traced to civilized times, actually the hereditary surname as we know it today dates from a time scarcely earlier than 900 years ago. True surnames in the sense of hereditary designations date in England from about 1000 A.D., but even by 1465, hereditary names were not universal. During the reign of Edward V, a law was passed to compel Irish tribes to adopt surnames. Many surnames of today which are difficult to classify or explain are corruption's of ancient forms. Longfellow, for example, was originally Longueville, Diggers was Douglas, Winch was Renshaw, and Gwynn and Wynn were Gwynedd. Variations have resulted from ignorance in spelling variations in pronunciation or merely from preference. Those Americans who possess old and honored names and who can trace the history of their surnames back to sturdy immigrant ancestors or even beyond to the old world and into the dim past, should be proud of their heritage. There were many Gwynns among the early pioneers. We should all be interested in tracing our family lines and in learning the history of our ancestors, for genealogical study represents an interesting and intriguing approach to the history of our country. A study of the individual family records, and certainly a study of the Gwynns, makes our pioneer history come alive. Additionally, it is our heritage, and our past, our legacy to our children. It is a part of who we are and where we came from. Hope this helps. Paul Gwynn [email protected] -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 3:28 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Origin of the Gwinn, Gwyn, Guin name Hi Terry-- My understanding is that the existance of the surname Wynn is because of a mutation that regularly occurs in the Welsh and other Celtic languanges where certain consonants are dropped off or replaced by another. Here is an example of the "G" being dropped: gafr = a goat ei afr = his goat Here is a link to a website that explains how mutations work---but be warned it is complex. It gives me a headache just thinking about it! http://www.clwbmalucachu.co.uk/cheat/cheat_mutations.htm -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Sent: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 15:46:20 EDT Subject: Re: Origin of the Gwinn, Gwyn, Guin name If memory serves, the names of father/ son changed from generation to generation in Welsh naming patterns. The father was a Gwinn his son's surname would be a Winn the son of that Winn would have the surname of Gwinn. I was told this on trip to Wales some years ago. Terry Coats Nashville TN ============================== New! Family Tree Maker 2005. Build your tree and search for your ancestors at the same time. Share your tree with family and friends. Learn more: http://landing.ancestry.com/familytreemaker/2005/tour.aspx?sourceid=14599&ta rgetid=5429 ============================== Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your family and the areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the last 12 months. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx ============================== New! Family Tree Maker 2005. Build your tree and search for your ancestors at the same time. Share your tree with family and friends. Learn more: http://landing.ancestry.com/familytreemaker/2005/tour.aspx?sourceid=14599&targetid=5429 ============================== Jumpstart your genealogy with OneWorldTree. Search not only for ancestors, but entire generations. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13972/rd.ashx