Thanks, for the information! -----Original Message----- From: Paul Gwynn [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 4:55 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Origin of the Gwinn, Gwyn, Guin name I have done a lot of research on the Gwynn/Gwinn lines, all spellings and the name variation can be traced back to Owain Gwynedd, the common ancestor of both lines. I had a rich uncle who years ago spent a ton of money to have the name researched and what he found was that Owain Gwynedd was the common ancestor of both lines and was married twice. First to Glawdys, from which the Gwynn/Gwinn line springs and secondly to his cousin Christian. From his first marriage to Glawdys, the main Gwynn line is continued through his son Iowerth. From his marriage to Christian springs the Wynn/Winn lines In those days, you did not want to be the bastard son or daughter of anyone, so to prevent this, Owain Gwynedds decendents of his second marriage dropped the G from the name and were forever afterward known as the Wynn/Winn line. I verified much of this on a trip to the ancestrial home of both lines, Llanwrst, Wales in 2001. I visited Gwydir Castle as well as Gwydir Chapel where Llwellyn the Great is buried in the floor. Fantastic trip. Unfortunately, Gwydir castle is not longer in possession of any one in the Gwynn/Gwinn/Wynn/Winn lines and has been purchased by some other people who have no relationship to the history or the family. Here in it's entirety is the documentation he was given: "The Prehistoric Kings of Britain" 1, Gwenedda Whedig, King of Cumberland, 328 A.D., founder of the Holy Tribe of Britain, first cousin to Constantine the Great, Emperor of Rome, had; 2, Einion Yrth; 3, Caswallawn Lawhir; 4, Maclgwyn Gwynedd; 5, Rhun; 6, Beli; 7, King Iago; 8, Cadvan, King; 9, Cadwaladyr Vindigouel, last King of the Britons, died at Rome in 688 A.D.; 10, Idwal Iurch; 11, Rhodri Molynog, 720 A.D.; 12, Cynan Tyndoethny; 13, Mervyn, King of Manessylt; 14, Rhodri Mawr; 15, Merig Ieuanf; 16, Idwal; 17, Iago, 18, Prince Cynan; 19, Gruffydd; 20, Owain Gwynedd, XI century, first married Glawdys, daughter of Llowarch ap Trahaern, Lord of Pembroke. He married secondly, his cousin Christian, from who was issued the Wynns of Gwydir Llanrwst, of whom the present representatives are Earls and Ancaster; Carrington and Sir W. Wynn, Bart. Here is shown that the Gwynns and Wynns are of the same ancestry, both issued from Owain Gwynedd, the Wynns coming from his second marriage to his cousin, Christian. From his first marriage to Glawdys, the main Gwynn line is continued through his son Iowerth. 21, Prince Iowerth Drwyndwn; 22, Prince Llewelyn, 23, Prince Gruffydd = first Eleanor, daughter of Simon Montfort, and wife, Eleanor, daughter of King John of England, and wife, Isabella de la Marche; 24, Prince Llwelyn, killed by treachery at Bulith, A.D. 1282 = Eleanor, daughter of Princess Eleanor and Henri Compta de Bari, daughter of Edward I, King of England, and wife Eleanor, daughter of Ferdinand III, King of Castile; 25, Princess Eleanor (Goch); 26, Thomas = Princess Catherine; 27, Lady Eleanor, eldest daughter and representative of the Princes of Wales = Gruffydd Nyehan, Lord of Glyntfrdy; 27, Margaret, younger sister and co-heiress = Sir Tudar ap Grono of Pennrynydd, junior line to Henry VII of England. 28, Owain Glyndwr, elder representative of the Princes of Wales, crowned at Mochyulleth; 28, Tudor Glyndwr, second son; junior representative of the Princes of Wales, killed in battle in 1405 = Maude, daughter and heiress to Ienaf ap Hywel, to Tudor Trevor; 29, Gruffydd, and 29, Moredydd, sons of Owain Glyndwr (See Mss of Powy's Fadog and Taicrocsion Mss.). Gruffydd ap Einon of Kors-y-Gedol = Louri, and had Isan Gruffydd, eldest son, and Tudyr. From the two eldest came many American families, among others the Winns and Lloyds, of Philadelphia. From Sir John Wynn, knight and baronet, came Captain Owin Gwynn, ancestor of this branch of the family. To the memory of his father, Sir John Wynn, and wife Sidney Gerard, is erected a tablet in Gwydir Chapel, Llanrwst, in which may be found many tablets confirming this pedigree. (Ref: Meade's "Old Churches and Families," Brown's Genesis of U.S.," and "Cabells and Their Kin")." Sometimes the change in spelling was made in Europe before the family migrated and sometimes after arrival in America. There are few surnames in America, the spelling of which, have not been changed many times. While the roots of our system of family names may be traced to civilized times, actually the hereditary surname as we know it today dates from a time scarcely earlier than 900 years ago. True surnames in the sense of hereditary designations date in England from about 1000 A.D., but even by 1465, hereditary names were not universal. During the reign of Edward V, a law was passed to compel Irish tribes to adopt surnames. Many surnames of today which are difficult to classify or explain are corruption's of ancient forms. Longfellow, for example, was originally Longueville, Diggers was Douglas, Winch was Renshaw, and Gwynn and Wynn were Gwynedd. Variations have resulted from ignorance in spelling variations in pronunciation or merely from preference. Those Americans who possess old and honored names and who can trace the history of their surnames back to sturdy immigrant ancestors or even beyond to the old world and into the dim past, should be proud of their heritage. There were many Gwynns among the early pioneers. We should all be interested in tracing our family lines and in learning the history of our ancestors, for genealogical study represents an interesting and intriguing approach to the history of our country. A study of the individual family records, and certainly a study of the Gwynns, makes our pioneer history come alive. Additionally, it is our heritage, and our past, our legacy to our children. It is a part of who we are and where we came from. Hope this helps. Paul Gwynn [email protected] -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 3:28 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Origin of the Gwinn, Gwyn, Guin name Hi Terry-- My understanding is that the existance of the surname Wynn is because of a mutation that regularly occurs in the Welsh and other Celtic languanges where certain consonants are dropped off or replaced by another. Here is an example of the "G" being dropped: gafr = a goat ei afr = his goat Here is a link to a website that explains how mutations work---but be warned it is complex. It gives me a headache just thinking about it! http://www.clwbmalucachu.co.uk/cheat/cheat_mutations.htm -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Sent: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 15:46:20 EDT Subject: Re: Origin of the Gwinn, Gwyn, Guin name If memory serves, the names of father/ son changed from generation to generation in Welsh naming patterns. The father was a Gwinn his son's surname would be a Winn the son of that Winn would have the surname of Gwinn. I was told this on trip to Wales some years ago. Terry Coats Nashville TN ============================== New! Family Tree Maker 2005. Build your tree and search for your ancestors at the same time. Share your tree with family and friends. 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