Hi: Would you look up MORDECAI GWIN c. 1720 - 1784...Died in N. C. Thanks, Harris Austin, Tx. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Gwynn" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2005 11:37 AM Subject: The Book of the Gwinns/Gwynns > Me Again, > > Just for your information, probably the best book I have found on the > Gwynn/Gwinn/Gwin line is the one by Jesse Blaine Gwin. I am not sure when > it was written, but the title is "The History of the > Gwin/Gwinn/Gwinne/Gwynn/Gwyn/Gwynne Family" by Jesse Blaine Gwin. It > covers > many different lines of the earliest families that came to America from > Europe. I found my ancestors there and it might be of value to some of > you. > If you would like, I would be most happy to look up information on an > individual for you that you may be having difficulty with. But give me > some > time, especially if I get a lot of requests. I am going out of town this > weekend, so I will not be back before next Tuesday, but if you want, go > ahead and send your requests and I will do what I can. What I will need, > if > at all possible is a time frame, date of birth or death would be great, > spouse if known, names of parents or siblings or children if known, and > the > area or state where they were supposed to have lived. I will do my best > to > find them if they are in the book. However, just saying can you find > James > Gwin from 1840 will not work. There must be 40 James Gwins in the book. > I > need a bit more information that just the name. > > It is easy to see by reading the book that Gwynns/Gwinns changed the > spelling of their name like most of us change socks. I found out that my > great great great grandfather's real name was Joseph Gwynne, however, that > was also the name of his grandfather, his uncle, and his cousin. So to > make > things easier, they gave him the nickname Josephus. Well, I looked for > years for his ancestors until I ran across two wills on the now defunct (I > think) U.S. Gen Web site that had the will of his grandfather and his > grandmother, both prominently listing Josephus. Long story stort, by > luck, > also found him in the court records in Greene County, Pennsylvania and > what > he had done was left home at the age of 18 and headed west, to Indiana, > where he kept his nickname, dropped the e from his name and thus Josephus > Gwynn, my ggg grandfather, who was actually borne Joseph Gwynne in Greene > County, Pennsylvania. > > I have even found ancestors in my line that spelled the name Gwinn, Gwin, > and one Gwyne. Often, it was not them that did the spelling, as with > census > takers. The one writing it down did not necessarily know hnow to spell > it, > neither did the person giving them the information, and often, it was > spelled the way it sounded. Thus, just because it is spelled differently, > don't be too quick to rule that person out as a possible ancestor. The > best > thing they ever came up with is the Soundex system. That way, even though > you get some unrelated names, you do get all the ones of the various > Gwynn/Gwinn spellings and can more easily wade through that information > rather than just concentrating on spelling, which may or may not be the > one > your ancestors used. Lastly, often they spelled it differently in Europe > than here. I know may Gwynne/Gwinne familes that dropped the e on coming > to > America. Someone told me that although the name is indeed of Welsh > lineage > and ancestry, the e on the end was the "Old English" spelling of the name, > just like in England today, color is spelled "colour". > > Paul > > > > ============================== > Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the > last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx > >

Ron, No offense taken and it was not my intention to stir up controversy, just share with others what I had. To me, and this is a personal thing, the origin of the Gwynn/Gwinn name is less important to me than who my ancestors were. And, if I can document them, I don't care if my ggggggg grandfathers name was Virgil Scruggs. I am interested in the genealogy of my line, not the history of the family name. That is where I am coming from. And you are quite right, Jesse Blaine Gwin's book does indeed continue the genealogy of the Ancient Kings of Britain. For me, whether or not it is true is less important that the fact it give me a reference point from which to work to or from. Whether it pans out to be correct or not is not of value to me. All I am interested in is who "my" ancestors are, wherever they came from and whatever name they had. In fact, once I find a direct ancestor, female, then the direct ancestoral line is broken at that point, and I become an ancestor by marriage only and not a direct ancestor. So to me, documentation on one's true ancestors is more valuable that where the "name" might have orginated from. I was only giving the group what my uncle had been given all those years ago. I have not verified anything other than my direct line and those that might be ancestors yet undocumented. It was not my intention to stir up controvery. However, I might point out one salient point. As Johnny Depp pointed out as Jack Sparrow in Pirates of the Caribbean, "Where do the stories come from then, I wonder". Well, prior to 1600, there weren't any Gwynns/Gwinns, etc. in America, just Native Americans. So hey had to come from somewhere. And since most of the earliest colonist came from Europe and Great Britain, one of them must have come here, even if no one has "found" the connection yet............ Paul -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2005 11:17 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Alleged Descent of Gwins from Owain ap Gruffydd, Prince of Gwynnedd (d. 1170) Please forgive me as I hate to be the killjoy of the list , but here goes ... First, and most important, not all Gwins, Gwyns, or Wynns are related—in fact there are probably multiple entirely unrelated Gwin lines. The surname arose from the descriptive nickname “gwyn” that was later adopted in some cases as a family name and not from a single family descended from Owain, Prince of Gwynedd. The Gwin family descent from Owain, Prince of Gwynedd, as contained in the “The Prehistoric Kings of Britain” is a pseudo-genealogy with little relationship to fact. It even mangles the names of important historical figures—for example, Gwenedda Whedig is really Cunedda the Great aka Cunedda Gwledig (in modern English this would be “Kenneth the Landholder”). See http://www.bardsongpress.com/cunedda.htm This pseudo-genealogy is often sited in various works including Jesse Blaine Gwin’s History of the Gwin Family. Here are two of the problems with this genealogy: 1. The Claimed Descent of Sir John Wynn of Gwydir from the Princes of Gwynedd: This part of the pseudo-genealogy is traceable to Sir John Wynn himself. Around 1580 Sir John Wynn wrote the History of the Gwydir Family and Memoirs. This work provides a rare and fascinating look at the rising power and times of an Elizabethan gentry family—the Wynns of Gwydir. In his History, Sir John claims a lineage that dates back several centuries to Owain ap Gruffydd, Prince of Gwynedd and Gruffydd ap Cynan, King of Gwynedd (c1055-1137). However, scholars agree that this lineage was “made up” to increase the political and personal prestige of Sir John and his family. Here is a quote from the introduction to the 1990 Gomer Press publication of the Sir John’s History by J. Gwynfor Jones, Senior Lecturer in Welsh History in the School of History and Archaeology, University of Wales College of Cardiff: “Sir John Wynn’s kinsmen could really only have traced their ancestry and ascendancy to a group of free-holders from Pennant and Penyfed townships in fourteenth-century Eifionydd, though he himself would have his readers believe that his stock had descended from Gruffudd ap Cynan.” The genealogical carving memorialized in the chapel at Gwydir is based on this pseudo-genealogy claimed by Sir John Wynn Here is a link to the Gwydir Castle website http://www.gwydir-castle.co.uk/index.htm for more information on the “castle” and the influential Wynns of Gwydir. 2. The Undocumented Descent of Current Day Gwin Families in America from Sir John Wynn. The pseudo-genealogy attempts to claim Colonel Hugh Gwyn (or Gwin) of Gwynn’s Island, Virginia (c1690s) as a descendent of Sir John Wynn of Gwydir. However, there is no documentation of this and we also know that Sir John’s male line died out! No one has to date successfully identified and documented the ancestors of Colonel Hugh Gwyn of Virginia. Sir John Wynn had an uncle John Gwynn of St. John’s College, Cambridge. It is possible that some American Gwins may be descended from this John Gwynn—but this is only speculation on my part. As late as the nineteenth-century, in the United Kingdom, there were Gwynn gentry families that could, I believe, legitimately trace their ancestry to the ancient Princes of Powys and some that claimed descent from the Irish-born chieftain and sub-King of Brecknock, Brychan Brycheiniog. I don’t know if any of these families continue to this day and again, there is no documented link to any American Gwins or Gwyns. Best wishes! Ron Gwinn -----Original Message----- From: Paul Gwynn <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 15:54:59 -0500 Subject: RE: Origin of the Gwinn, Gwyn, Guin name I have done a lot of research on the Gwynn/Gwinn lines, all spellings and the name variation can be traced back to Owain Gwynedd, the common ancestor of both lines. I had a rich uncle who years ago spent a ton of money to have the name researched and what he found was that Owain Gwynedd was the common ancestor of both lines and was married twice. First to Glawdys, from which the Gwynn/Gwinn line springs and secondly to his cousin Christian. From his first marriage to Glawdys, the main Gwynn line is continued through his son Iowerth. From his marriage to Christian springs the Wynn/Winn lines In those days, you did not want to be the bastard son or daughter of anyone, so to prevent this, Owain Gwynedds decendents of his second marriage dropped the G from the name and were forever afterward known as the Wynn/Winn line. I verified much of this on a trip to the ancestrial home of both lines, Llanwrst, Wales in 2001. I visited Gwydir Castle as well as Gwydir Chapel where Llwellyn the Great is buried in the floor. Fantastic trip. Unfortunately, Gwydir castle is not longer in possession of any one in the Gwynn/Gwinn/Wynn/Winn lines and has been purchased by some other people who have no relationship to the history or the family. Here in it's entirety is the documentation he was given: "The Prehistoric Kings of Britain" 1, Gwenedda Whedig, King of Cumberland, 328 A.D., founder of the Holy Tribe of Britain, first cousin to Constantine the Great, Emperor of Rome, had; 2, Einion Yrth; 3, Caswallawn Lawhir; 4, Maclgwyn Gwynedd; 5, Rhun; 6, Beli; 7, King Iago; 8, Cadvan, King; 9, Cadwaladyr Vindigouel, last King of the Britons, died at Rome in 688 A.D.; 10, Idwal Iurch; 11, Rhodri Molynog, 720 A.D.; 12, Cynan Tyndoethny; 13, Mervyn, King of Manessylt; 14, Rhodri Mawr; 15, Merig Ieuanf; 16, Idwal; 17, Iago, 18, Prince Cynan; 19, Gruffydd; 20, Owain Gwynedd, XI century, first married Glawdys, daughter of Llowarch ap Trahaern, Lord of Pembroke. He married secondly, his cousin Christian, from who was issued the Wynns of Gwydir Llanrwst, of whom the present representatives are Earls and Ancaster; Carrington and Sir W. Wynn, Bart. Here is shown that the Gwynns and Wynns are of the same ancestry, both issued from Owain Gwynedd, the Wynns coming from his second marriage to his cousin, Christian. From his first marriage to Glawdys, the main Gwynn line is continued through his son Iowerth. 21, Prince Iowerth Drwyndwn; 22, Prince Llewelyn, 23, Prince Gruffydd = first Eleanor, daughter of Simon Montfort, and wife, Eleanor, daughter of King John of England, and wife, Isabella de la Marche; 24, Prince Llwelyn, killed by treachery at Bulith, A.D. 1282 = Eleanor, daughter of Princess Eleanor and Henri Compta de Bari, daughter of Edward I, King of England, and wife Eleanor, daughter of Ferdinand III, King of Castile; 25, Princess Eleanor (Goch); 26, Thomas = Princess Catherine; 27, Lady Eleanor, eldest daughter and representative of the Princes of Wales = Gruffydd Nyehan, Lord of Glyntfrdy; 27, Margaret, younger sister and co-heiress = Sir Tudar ap Grono of Pennrynydd, junior line to Henry VII of England. 28, Owain Glyndwr, elder representative of the Princes of Wales, crowned at Mochyulleth; 28, Tudor Glyndwr, second son; junior representative of the Princes of Wales, killed in battle in 1405 = Maude, daughter and heiress to Ienaf ap Hywel, to Tudor Trevor; 29, Gruffydd, and 29, Moredydd, sons of Owain Glyndwr (See Mss of Powy's Fadog and Taicrocsion Mss.). Gruffydd ap Einon of Kors-y-Gedol = Louri, and had Isan Gruffydd, eldest son, and Tudyr. From the two eldest came many American families, among others the Winns and Lloyds, of Philadelphia. From Sir John Wynn, knight and baronet, came Captain Owin Gwynn, ancestor of this branch of the family. To the memory of his father, Sir John Wynn, and wife Sidney Gerard, is erected a tablet in Gwydir Chapel, Llanrwst, in which may be found many tablets confirming this pedigree. (Ref: Meade's "Old Churches and Families," Brown's Genesis of U.S.," and "Cabells and Their Kin")." Sometimes the change in spelling was made in Europe before the family migrated and sometimes after arrival in America. There are few surnames in America, the spelling of which, have not been changed many times. While the roots of our system of family names may be traced to civilized times, actually the hereditary surname as we know it today dates from a time scarcely earlier than 900 years ago. True surnames in the sense of hereditary designations date in England from about 1000 A.D., but even by 1465, hereditary names were not universal. During the reign of Edward V, a law was passed to compel Irish tribes to adopt surnames. Many surnames of today which are difficult to classify or explain are corruption's of ancient forms. Longfellow, for example, was originally Longueville, Diggers was Douglas, Winch was Renshaw, and Gwynn and Wynn were Gwynedd. Variations have resulted from ignorance in spelling variations in pronunciation or merely from preference. Those Americans who possess old and honored names and who can trace the history of their surnames back to sturdy immigrant ancestors or even beyond to the old world and into the dim past, should be proud of their heritage. There were many Gwynns among the early pioneers. We should all be interested in tracing our family lines and in learning the history of our ancestors, for genealogical study represents an interesting and intriguing approach to the history of our country. A study of the individual family records, and certainly a study of the Gwynns, makes our pioneer history come alive. Additionally, it is our heritage, and our past, our legacy to our children. It is a part of who we are and where we came from. Hope this helps. Paul Gwynn [email protected] -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 3:28 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Origin of the Gwinn, Gwyn, Guin name Hi Terry-- My understanding is that the existance of the surname Wynn is because of a mutation that regularly occurs in the Welsh and other Celtic languanges where certain consonants are dropped off or replaced by another. Here is an example of the "G" being dropped: gafr = a goat ei afr = his goat Here is a link to a website that explains how mutations work---but be warned it is complex. It gives me a headache just thinking about it! http://www.clwbmalucachu.co.uk/cheat/cheat_mutations.htm -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Sent: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 15:46:20 EDT Subject: Re: Origin of the Gwinn, Gwyn, Guin name If memory serves, the names of father/ son changed from generation to generation in Welsh naming patterns. The father was a Gwinn his son's surname would be a Winn the son of that Winn would have the surname of Gwinn. I was told this on trip to Wales some years ago. Terry Coats Nashville TN ============================== New! Family Tree Maker 2005. Build your tree and search for your ancestors at the same time. Share your tree with family and friends. Learn more: http://landing.ancestry.com/familytreemaker/2005/tour.aspx?sourceid=14599&ta rgetid=5429 ============================== Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your family and the areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the last 12 months. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx ============================== New! Family Tree Maker 2005. Build your tree and search for your ancestors at the same time. Share your tree with family and friends. Learn more: http://landing.ancestry.com/familytreemaker/2005/tour.aspx?sourceid=14599&targetid=5429 ============================== Jumpstart your genealogy with OneWorldTree. Search not only for ancestors, but entire generations. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13972/rd.ashx

Me Again, Just for your information, probably the best book I have found on the Gwynn/Gwinn/Gwin line is the one by Jesse Blaine Gwin. I am not sure when it was written, but the title is "The History of the Gwin/Gwinn/Gwinne/Gwynn/Gwyn/Gwynne Family" by Jesse Blaine Gwin. It covers many different lines of the earliest families that came to America from Europe. I found my ancestors there and it might be of value to some of you. If you would like, I would be most happy to look up information on an individual for you that you may be having difficulty with. But give me some time, especially if I get a lot of requests. I am going out of town this weekend, so I will not be back before next Tuesday, but if you want, go ahead and send your requests and I will do what I can. What I will need, if at all possible is a time frame, date of birth or death would be great, spouse if known, names of parents or siblings or children if known, and the area or state where they were supposed to have lived. I will do my best to find them if they are in the book. However, just saying can you find James Gwin from 1840 will not work. There must be 40 James Gwins in the book. I need a bit more information that just the name. It is easy to see by reading the book that Gwynns/Gwinns changed the spelling of their name like most of us change socks. I found out that my great great great grandfather's real name was Joseph Gwynne, however, that was also the name of his grandfather, his uncle, and his cousin. So to make things easier, they gave him the nickname Josephus. Well, I looked for years for his ancestors until I ran across two wills on the now defunct (I think) U.S. Gen Web site that had the will of his grandfather and his grandmother, both prominently listing Josephus. Long story stort, by luck, also found him in the court records in Greene County, Pennsylvania and what he had done was left home at the age of 18 and headed west, to Indiana, where he kept his nickname, dropped the e from his name and thus Josephus Gwynn, my ggg grandfather, who was actually borne Joseph Gwynne in Greene County, Pennsylvania. I have even found ancestors in my line that spelled the name Gwinn, Gwin, and one Gwyne. Often, it was not them that did the spelling, as with census takers. The one writing it down did not necessarily know hnow to spell it, neither did the person giving them the information, and often, it was spelled the way it sounded. Thus, just because it is spelled differently, don't be too quick to rule that person out as a possible ancestor. The best thing they ever came up with is the Soundex system. That way, even though you get some unrelated names, you do get all the ones of the various Gwynn/Gwinn spellings and can more easily wade through that information rather than just concentrating on spelling, which may or may not be the one your ancestors used. Lastly, often they spelled it differently in Europe than here. I know may Gwynne/Gwinne familes that dropped the e on coming to America. Someone told me that although the name is indeed of Welsh lineage and ancestry, the e on the end was the "Old English" spelling of the name, just like in England today, color is spelled "colour". Paul

Hello Researchers of Gwin Families I am searching for information on the following Gwin families who in Va. to Woodruff, Spartanburg, SC. later in and around Euphoria Webster Co. MS. William Thomas Gwin Born 21 July 1853 Woodruff, Spartanburg, SC. Died JUl 1934 Euphoria, MS. married 1st. abt. 1874 Webster Co. MS. To Gennella Inez Pounds Born Oct, 1854 Ms. Died 1915 Ms by this marriage there were 8 children I have some information on all 8 chn. he married 2nd. widow Sarah Wells Hood.No chn by this marriage. he was a son of, John N. Gwin Born abt. 1859 Va. Died in MS. Married date unknown Margaret Ann Phillips Born SC. Died in MS. parents of following known 6 children 1. J.B. Gwin 2. Sallie Gwin who married ___Finley 3. Mary Gwin who married ___Hereon 4. Arilda Gwin who married Banyan Loller 5. C. Gwin 6. William Thomas Gwin above I would like very much to correspond with anyone who may be able to share information on any of these families. Thank you so very much.

Subscripe

Thanks so much for taking the time to post this very interesting information. Davine

Thanks, for the information! -----Original Message----- From: Paul Gwynn [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 4:55 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Origin of the Gwinn, Gwyn, Guin name I have done a lot of research on the Gwynn/Gwinn lines, all spellings and the name variation can be traced back to Owain Gwynedd, the common ancestor of both lines. I had a rich uncle who years ago spent a ton of money to have the name researched and what he found was that Owain Gwynedd was the common ancestor of both lines and was married twice. First to Glawdys, from which the Gwynn/Gwinn line springs and secondly to his cousin Christian. From his first marriage to Glawdys, the main Gwynn line is continued through his son Iowerth. From his marriage to Christian springs the Wynn/Winn lines In those days, you did not want to be the bastard son or daughter of anyone, so to prevent this, Owain Gwynedds decendents of his second marriage dropped the G from the name and were forever afterward known as the Wynn/Winn line. I verified much of this on a trip to the ancestrial home of both lines, Llanwrst, Wales in 2001. I visited Gwydir Castle as well as Gwydir Chapel where Llwellyn the Great is buried in the floor. Fantastic trip. Unfortunately, Gwydir castle is not longer in possession of any one in the Gwynn/Gwinn/Wynn/Winn lines and has been purchased by some other people who have no relationship to the history or the family. Here in it's entirety is the documentation he was given: "The Prehistoric Kings of Britain" 1, Gwenedda Whedig, King of Cumberland, 328 A.D., founder of the Holy Tribe of Britain, first cousin to Constantine the Great, Emperor of Rome, had; 2, Einion Yrth; 3, Caswallawn Lawhir; 4, Maclgwyn Gwynedd; 5, Rhun; 6, Beli; 7, King Iago; 8, Cadvan, King; 9, Cadwaladyr Vindigouel, last King of the Britons, died at Rome in 688 A.D.; 10, Idwal Iurch; 11, Rhodri Molynog, 720 A.D.; 12, Cynan Tyndoethny; 13, Mervyn, King of Manessylt; 14, Rhodri Mawr; 15, Merig Ieuanf; 16, Idwal; 17, Iago, 18, Prince Cynan; 19, Gruffydd; 20, Owain Gwynedd, XI century, first married Glawdys, daughter of Llowarch ap Trahaern, Lord of Pembroke. He married secondly, his cousin Christian, from who was issued the Wynns of Gwydir Llanrwst, of whom the present representatives are Earls and Ancaster; Carrington and Sir W. Wynn, Bart. Here is shown that the Gwynns and Wynns are of the same ancestry, both issued from Owain Gwynedd, the Wynns coming from his second marriage to his cousin, Christian. From his first marriage to Glawdys, the main Gwynn line is continued through his son Iowerth. 21, Prince Iowerth Drwyndwn; 22, Prince Llewelyn, 23, Prince Gruffydd = first Eleanor, daughter of Simon Montfort, and wife, Eleanor, daughter of King John of England, and wife, Isabella de la Marche; 24, Prince Llwelyn, killed by treachery at Bulith, A.D. 1282 = Eleanor, daughter of Princess Eleanor and Henri Compta de Bari, daughter of Edward I, King of England, and wife Eleanor, daughter of Ferdinand III, King of Castile; 25, Princess Eleanor (Goch); 26, Thomas = Princess Catherine; 27, Lady Eleanor, eldest daughter and representative of the Princes of Wales = Gruffydd Nyehan, Lord of Glyntfrdy; 27, Margaret, younger sister and co-heiress = Sir Tudar ap Grono of Pennrynydd, junior line to Henry VII of England. 28, Owain Glyndwr, elder representative of the Princes of Wales, crowned at Mochyulleth; 28, Tudor Glyndwr, second son; junior representative of the Princes of Wales, killed in battle in 1405 = Maude, daughter and heiress to Ienaf ap Hywel, to Tudor Trevor; 29, Gruffydd, and 29, Moredydd, sons of Owain Glyndwr (See Mss of Powy's Fadog and Taicrocsion Mss.). Gruffydd ap Einon of Kors-y-Gedol = Louri, and had Isan Gruffydd, eldest son, and Tudyr. From the two eldest came many American families, among others the Winns and Lloyds, of Philadelphia. From Sir John Wynn, knight and baronet, came Captain Owin Gwynn, ancestor of this branch of the family. To the memory of his father, Sir John Wynn, and wife Sidney Gerard, is erected a tablet in Gwydir Chapel, Llanrwst, in which may be found many tablets confirming this pedigree. (Ref: Meade's "Old Churches and Families," Brown's Genesis of U.S.," and "Cabells and Their Kin")." Sometimes the change in spelling was made in Europe before the family migrated and sometimes after arrival in America. There are few surnames in America, the spelling of which, have not been changed many times. While the roots of our system of family names may be traced to civilized times, actually the hereditary surname as we know it today dates from a time scarcely earlier than 900 years ago. True surnames in the sense of hereditary designations date in England from about 1000 A.D., but even by 1465, hereditary names were not universal. During the reign of Edward V, a law was passed to compel Irish tribes to adopt surnames. Many surnames of today which are difficult to classify or explain are corruption's of ancient forms. Longfellow, for example, was originally Longueville, Diggers was Douglas, Winch was Renshaw, and Gwynn and Wynn were Gwynedd. Variations have resulted from ignorance in spelling variations in pronunciation or merely from preference. Those Americans who possess old and honored names and who can trace the history of their surnames back to sturdy immigrant ancestors or even beyond to the old world and into the dim past, should be proud of their heritage. There were many Gwynns among the early pioneers. We should all be interested in tracing our family lines and in learning the history of our ancestors, for genealogical study represents an interesting and intriguing approach to the history of our country. A study of the individual family records, and certainly a study of the Gwynns, makes our pioneer history come alive. Additionally, it is our heritage, and our past, our legacy to our children. It is a part of who we are and where we came from. Hope this helps. Paul Gwynn [email protected] -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 3:28 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Origin of the Gwinn, Gwyn, Guin name Hi Terry-- My understanding is that the existance of the surname Wynn is because of a mutation that regularly occurs in the Welsh and other Celtic languanges where certain consonants are dropped off or replaced by another. Here is an example of the "G" being dropped: gafr = a goat ei afr = his goat Here is a link to a website that explains how mutations work---but be warned it is complex. It gives me a headache just thinking about it! http://www.clwbmalucachu.co.uk/cheat/cheat_mutations.htm -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Sent: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 15:46:20 EDT Subject: Re: Origin of the Gwinn, Gwyn, Guin name If memory serves, the names of father/ son changed from generation to generation in Welsh naming patterns. The father was a Gwinn his son's surname would be a Winn the son of that Winn would have the surname of Gwinn. I was told this on trip to Wales some years ago. Terry Coats Nashville TN ============================== New! Family Tree Maker 2005. Build your tree and search for your ancestors at the same time. Share your tree with family and friends. Learn more: http://landing.ancestry.com/familytreemaker/2005/tour.aspx?sourceid=1459 9&ta rgetid=5429 ============================== Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your family and the areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the last 12 months. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx ============================== New! Family Tree Maker 2005. Build your tree and search for your ancestors at the same time. Share your tree with family and friends. Learn more: http://landing.ancestry.com/familytreemaker/2005/tour.aspx?sourceid=1459 9&targetid=5429

Steve, People don't read requests like yours. Here are the instructions I got when I signed up (pertaining to getting off the list): 1. How to unsubscribe. Send a message to [email protected] that contains (in the body of the message) the command unsubscribe and no additional text. At 06:41 PM 4/5/05 -0400, you wrote: >Please unsubscribe me from the Rootsweb list for Gwin. > >Thank you > >Yours sincerely, > >Steve Kirby >E-mail (personal): [email protected] > > > >============================== >Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the >last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: >http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx

Please unsubscribe me from the Rootsweb list for Gwin. Thank you Yours sincerely, Steve Kirby E-mail (personal): [email protected]

I should have also said that as with others surname, consistency in spelling or usage was not a big issue until about the 1800s. There were families where one brother called himself a Wynn and another called himself a Gwyn. Sometimes one individual would be a Wynn in one document and a Gwyn in another. -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Sent: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 16:27:34 -0400 Subject: Re: Origin of the Gwinn, Gwyn, Guin name Hi Terry-- My understanding is that the existance of the surname Wynn is because of a mutation that regularly occurs in the Welsh and other Celtic languanges where certain consonants are dropped off or replaced by another. Here is an example of the "G" being dropped: gafr = a goat ei afr = his goat Here is a link to a website that explains how mutations work---but be warned it is complex. It gives me a headache just thinking about it! http://www.clwbmalucachu.co.uk/cheat/cheat_mutations.htm -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Sent: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 15:46:20 EDT Subject: Re: Origin of the Gwinn, Gwyn, Guin name If memory serves, the names of father/ son changed from generation to generation in Welsh naming patterns. The father was a Gwinn his son's surname would be a Winn the son of that Winn would have the surname of Gwinn. I was told this on trip to Wales some years ago. Terry Coats Nashville TN ============================== New! Family Tree Maker 2005. Build your tree and search for your ancestors at the same time. Share your tree with family and friends. Learn more: http://landing.ancestry.com/familytreemaker/2005/tour.aspx?sourceid=14599&targetid=5429 ============================== Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your family and the areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the last 12 months. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx

Hi Terry-- My understanding is that the existance of the surname Wynn is because of a mutation that regularly occurs in the Welsh and other Celtic languanges where certain consonants are dropped off or replaced by another. Here is an example of the "G" being dropped: gafr = a goat ei afr = his goat Here is a link to a website that explains how mutations work---but be warned it is complex. It gives me a headache just thinking about it! http://www.clwbmalucachu.co.uk/cheat/cheat_mutations.htm -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Sent: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 15:46:20 EDT Subject: Re: Origin of the Gwinn, Gwyn, Guin name If memory serves, the names of father/ son changed from generation to generation in Welsh naming patterns. The father was a Gwinn his son's surname would be a Winn the son of that Winn would have the surname of Gwinn. I was told this on trip to Wales some years ago. Terry Coats Nashville TN ============================== New! Family Tree Maker 2005. Build your tree and search for your ancestors at the same time. Share your tree with family and friends. Learn more: http://landing.ancestry.com/familytreemaker/2005/tour.aspx?sourceid=14599&targetid=5429

I have done a lot of research on the Gwynn/Gwinn lines, all spellings and the name variation can be traced back to Owain Gwynedd, the common ancestor of both lines. I had a rich uncle who years ago spent a ton of money to have the name researched and what he found was that Owain Gwynedd was the common ancestor of both lines and was married twice. First to Glawdys, from which the Gwynn/Gwinn line springs and secondly to his cousin Christian. From his first marriage to Glawdys, the main Gwynn line is continued through his son Iowerth. From his marriage to Christian springs the Wynn/Winn lines In those days, you did not want to be the bastard son or daughter of anyone, so to prevent this, Owain Gwynedds decendents of his second marriage dropped the G from the name and were forever afterward known as the Wynn/Winn line. I verified much of this on a trip to the ancestrial home of both lines, Llanwrst, Wales in 2001. I visited Gwydir Castle as well as Gwydir Chapel where Llwellyn the Great is buried in the floor. Fantastic trip. Unfortunately, Gwydir castle is not longer in possession of any one in the Gwynn/Gwinn/Wynn/Winn lines and has been purchased by some other people who have no relationship to the history or the family. Here in it's entirety is the documentation he was given: "The Prehistoric Kings of Britain" 1, Gwenedda Whedig, King of Cumberland, 328 A.D., founder of the Holy Tribe of Britain, first cousin to Constantine the Great, Emperor of Rome, had; 2, Einion Yrth; 3, Caswallawn Lawhir; 4, Maclgwyn Gwynedd; 5, Rhun; 6, Beli; 7, King Iago; 8, Cadvan, King; 9, Cadwaladyr Vindigouel, last King of the Britons, died at Rome in 688 A.D.; 10, Idwal Iurch; 11, Rhodri Molynog, 720 A.D.; 12, Cynan Tyndoethny; 13, Mervyn, King of Manessylt; 14, Rhodri Mawr; 15, Merig Ieuanf; 16, Idwal; 17, Iago, 18, Prince Cynan; 19, Gruffydd; 20, Owain Gwynedd, XI century, first married Glawdys, daughter of Llowarch ap Trahaern, Lord of Pembroke. He married secondly, his cousin Christian, from who was issued the Wynns of Gwydir Llanrwst, of whom the present representatives are Earls and Ancaster; Carrington and Sir W. Wynn, Bart. Here is shown that the Gwynns and Wynns are of the same ancestry, both issued from Owain Gwynedd, the Wynns coming from his second marriage to his cousin, Christian. From his first marriage to Glawdys, the main Gwynn line is continued through his son Iowerth. 21, Prince Iowerth Drwyndwn; 22, Prince Llewelyn, 23, Prince Gruffydd = first Eleanor, daughter of Simon Montfort, and wife, Eleanor, daughter of King John of England, and wife, Isabella de la Marche; 24, Prince Llwelyn, killed by treachery at Bulith, A.D. 1282 = Eleanor, daughter of Princess Eleanor and Henri Compta de Bari, daughter of Edward I, King of England, and wife Eleanor, daughter of Ferdinand III, King of Castile; 25, Princess Eleanor (Goch); 26, Thomas = Princess Catherine; 27, Lady Eleanor, eldest daughter and representative of the Princes of Wales = Gruffydd Nyehan, Lord of Glyntfrdy; 27, Margaret, younger sister and co-heiress = Sir Tudar ap Grono of Pennrynydd, junior line to Henry VII of England. 28, Owain Glyndwr, elder representative of the Princes of Wales, crowned at Mochyulleth; 28, Tudor Glyndwr, second son; junior representative of the Princes of Wales, killed in battle in 1405 = Maude, daughter and heiress to Ienaf ap Hywel, to Tudor Trevor; 29, Gruffydd, and 29, Moredydd, sons of Owain Glyndwr (See Mss of Powy's Fadog and Taicrocsion Mss.). Gruffydd ap Einon of Kors-y-Gedol = Louri, and had Isan Gruffydd, eldest son, and Tudyr. From the two eldest came many American families, among others the Winns and Lloyds, of Philadelphia. From Sir John Wynn, knight and baronet, came Captain Owin Gwynn, ancestor of this branch of the family. To the memory of his father, Sir John Wynn, and wife Sidney Gerard, is erected a tablet in Gwydir Chapel, Llanrwst, in which may be found many tablets confirming this pedigree. (Ref: Meade's "Old Churches and Families," Brown's Genesis of U.S.," and "Cabells and Their Kin")." Sometimes the change in spelling was made in Europe before the family migrated and sometimes after arrival in America. There are few surnames in America, the spelling of which, have not been changed many times. While the roots of our system of family names may be traced to civilized times, actually the hereditary surname as we know it today dates from a time scarcely earlier than 900 years ago. True surnames in the sense of hereditary designations date in England from about 1000 A.D., but even by 1465, hereditary names were not universal. During the reign of Edward V, a law was passed to compel Irish tribes to adopt surnames. Many surnames of today which are difficult to classify or explain are corruption's of ancient forms. Longfellow, for example, was originally Longueville, Diggers was Douglas, Winch was Renshaw, and Gwynn and Wynn were Gwynedd. Variations have resulted from ignorance in spelling variations in pronunciation or merely from preference. Those Americans who possess old and honored names and who can trace the history of their surnames back to sturdy immigrant ancestors or even beyond to the old world and into the dim past, should be proud of their heritage. There were many Gwynns among the early pioneers. We should all be interested in tracing our family lines and in learning the history of our ancestors, for genealogical study represents an interesting and intriguing approach to the history of our country. A study of the individual family records, and certainly a study of the Gwynns, makes our pioneer history come alive. Additionally, it is our heritage, and our past, our legacy to our children. It is a part of who we are and where we came from. Hope this helps. Paul Gwynn [email protected] -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 3:28 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Origin of the Gwinn, Gwyn, Guin name Hi Terry-- My understanding is that the existance of the surname Wynn is because of a mutation that regularly occurs in the Welsh and other Celtic languanges where certain consonants are dropped off or replaced by another. Here is an example of the "G" being dropped: gafr = a goat ei afr = his goat Here is a link to a website that explains how mutations work---but be warned it is complex. It gives me a headache just thinking about it! http://www.clwbmalucachu.co.uk/cheat/cheat_mutations.htm -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Sent: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 15:46:20 EDT Subject: Re: Origin of the Gwinn, Gwyn, Guin name If memory serves, the names of father/ son changed from generation to generation in Welsh naming patterns. The father was a Gwinn his son's surname would be a Winn the son of that Winn would have the surname of Gwinn. I was told this on trip to Wales some years ago. Terry Coats Nashville TN ============================== New! Family Tree Maker 2005. Build your tree and search for your ancestors at the same time. Share your tree with family and friends. Learn more: http://landing.ancestry.com/familytreemaker/2005/tour.aspx?sourceid=14599&ta rgetid=5429 ============================== Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your family and the areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the last 12 months. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx

If memory serves, the names of father/ son changed from generation to generation in Welsh naming patterns. The father was a Gwinn his son's surname would be a Winn the son of that Winn would have the surname of Gwinn. I was told this on trip to Wales some years ago. Terry Coats Nashville TN

As a general rule, the Gwinn name has an entirely separate origin from the Irish (Gaelic) name Quinn. The Gwinns are Welsh and the surname is derived from the Welsh word "gwyn" which literally means "white." Depending on the context in which it is used, it can also mean "light-colored, fair, bright, shining, blessed, virginal, etc." The name started out as a descriptive nickname which in some cases evolved into a family surname. For example, an early historical ancestor of one Gwyn family was Dafydd goch-gwyn which literally means David "red-white". This David reportedly had red hair and very fair skin---thus the nickname "red-white." He never bore Gwyn as a surname but some of his descendents did. The Irish cognate of the Welsh "gwyn" is "fionn" as in Huckleberry Finn. I always like to joke that if Mark Twain had made Huck of Welsh instead of Irish descent, his name would have been Huckleberry Gwinn. Best wishes! Ron Gwinn -----Original Message----- From: Bethel, April D, NEO <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 01:06:48 -0500 Subject: RE: Gwin Family Hello, I don't know how I happen to get your email, but I have a question for you. My gg grandmother was a Gwinn. As far as I know no one has ever been able to trace the Gwinns back to Ireland. I was in Ireland in November, and I saw the name Quinn everywhere. I was wondering then if it could be a variation of Gwinn. Thanks, April Bethel

Hi, Thanks, to all of you who answered my question about Quinn's in Ireland. It is all very interesting. April Bethel -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 11:42 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Gwin Family Absolutely! Davine Roberts Jacksonville, FL -----Original Message----- From: Bethel, April D, NEO <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 01:06:48 -0500 Subject: RE: Gwin Family Hello, I don't know how I happen to get your email, but I have a question for you. My gg grandmother was a Gwinn. As far as I know no one has ever been able to trace the Gwinns back to Ireland. I was in Ireland in November, and I saw the name Quinn everywhere. I was wondering then if it could be a variation of Gwinn. Thanks, April Bethel -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2005 11:00 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Gwin Family there were Quinns in Slater, Saline Co., Missouri ==Halifax, Va. and Quinn Island in Va. This is were my line run and menytimes the family(brothers and cousins, etc) would follow and live with one another until the house was build. So sometimes the record did not pick them up as a family my themself. Virginia ============================== Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your family and the areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the last 12 months. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx ============================== Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your family and the areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the last 12 months. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx ============================== New! Family Tree Maker 2005. Build your tree and search for your ancestors at the same time. Share your tree with family and friends. Learn more: http://landing.ancestry.com/familytreemaker/2005/tour.aspx?sourceid=1459 9&targetid=5429

Peggy, I told him about that and he blew me off! Some brother... Now I can tell "I told you so!" Thanks ;-) -Mike -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 3:16 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Gwinn family website www.gwinnfamily.org Hi, I went to your brother's website and had two problems. One is, there is no scroll bar on the side to access what appears to be more items down below on the page. The other is, there is a sentence in black that looks like it should be a link, that is, in blue that you can click on. Maybe I'm wrong, but check it out. The sentence says, What are the Gwinn Papers and where did they come from? You might want to pass this on. Thanks, Peggy ============================== Jumpstart your genealogy with OneWorldTree. Search not only for ancestors, but entire generations. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13972/rd.ashx

Hi: Did you learn anything????? Harris ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 1:19 PM Subject: Re: Gwin Family > > In a message dated 4/4/05 9:24:27 AM, [email protected] writes: > > >> What I have seen say the name >> was at one time Gwydir in Wales.. >> >> > > Gwydir Castle is the name of the castle I visited in No. Wales. > > Terry L. Coats > Goodlettsville, TN. > 615-859-3830 > [email protected] > > > ============================== > Find your ancestors in the Birth, Marriage and Death Records. > New content added every business day. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13964/rd.ashx > > >

www.gwinnfamily.org Hi, I went to your brother's website and had two problems. One is, there is no scroll bar on the side to access what appears to be more items down below on the page. The other is, there is a sentence in black that looks like it should be a link, that is, in blue that you can click on. Maybe I'm wrong, but check it out. The sentence says, What are the Gwinn Papers and where did they come from? You might want to pass this on. Thanks, Peggy

I was in Truro, Cornwall, England a few years ago at a Historian's library. I talked to the librarian briefly (she was getting ready to close) about the name Guin and all variations. She said it was a Welsh name and that many Welsh people came to Cornwall at some point in time. The name means fair-skinned, I believe the dictionary said. One book written by Jesse Blaine Gwin, History of the Gwin Family, claims they came from Wales. I believe it's the Quinn's who came from Ireland. Peggy Guinn Bowen CA

In a message dated 4/4/05 9:24:27 AM, [email protected] writes: > What I have seen say the name > was at one time Gwydir in Wales.. > > Gwydir Castle is the name of the castle I visited in No. Wales. Terry L. Coats Goodlettsville, TN. 615-859-3830 [email protected]