Since many of you have become active I will try again. My great grand mother, I believe was Anna M. Guin ( or Gwin etc.) was born about 1845 - 1850 in New York State (according to Fed census 1910, 1900, 1880. She died 1918 in Earlville, Chenango Co .NY She married Charles A. Clark b. 1840 New York State about 1870 -71. Children: Frederick b. 1872 d. 1913, Jane b. 1874 d. 1956, Coraeinne b. 1876 d. 1938, Laura b. 1878 d. 1956, Charles Jr. b. 1885 d. 1954, Albert 1889 d. 1973, Anna Marie b. 1893 d. at 1 yr. 3 mos All children born Sherburne Twp. Chenango Co. NY. I can't find Anna or Charles before 1870. One or both oemh may have lived in Michigan Julia Heider

In a message dated 4/6/2005 7:01:33 PM Pacific Daylight Time, JCramer writes: My Guinn/Gwinn/Gwin line starts as far as I know in VA with Thomas Guinn.... He also named his first son Richard, and wonder if this may have been his father's first name. Thomas had eight son's however. Franki, Could you give us the names of Thomas' sons? As to his first son being named Richard and wondering if he was named for Thomas' father--There was a time when people had a set pattern for naming their sons, though unfortunately it didn't last throughout generations--unfortunate for us genealogists! I found it in one of my families between late 1700s and early 1800s. Here's what they did: The first son was named for the father's father. The second son was named for the mother's father. The third son was named for the father of the child. After that, it was anybody's guess. Uncles, cousins, good friends, etc. So IF Thomas followed this pattern in his family, Richard would have been the name of Thomas' father, and the third son would have been named Thomas. I've also seen where a child died, and the next child born of that gender was given the same name as the deceased child. I'm thinking it was because the name was of a well-respected relative and they wanted to make sure the relative was honored. Peggy Guinn Bowen, California

Thanks for your response. Davine -----Original Message----- From: J Cramer <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 21:33:31 -0400 Subject: Gwin Hi Davine, My Thomas is found 1790 census in Fairfield Dist SC. He moved to York Co. by 1820 and died there in 1838, the time of his will probate. I have never found a Morris/Maurice amongst the family names, and you are right about the name John. Thomas named his son's Richard, John, Littleton, Thompson, William, Chesley, Jesse, and Jeptha Decatur, his daughters were Mary, Milly, Sarah, Elizabeth and Nancy. Sounds like we have different families, but who knows. Seems to me there were an awful lot of Gwin/Guinn/Gwyn/Gwinn's etc. around during this time period! Thanks for replying. Franki ============================== Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your family and the areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the last 12 months. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx

Hi Peggy and thanks for the reply. Thomas and Elizabeth named their sons: Richard, John, Littleton, Jesse, William, Jeptha, Thompson T., and Chesley. Their daughters were Mary, Milly, Sarah, Elizabeth and Nancy. I do not know the birth order of these children, however I know the names of most of the spouses of these people. I have been stuck for years with my VA research. Somewhere I remember seeing Thomas' father was born in 1743 or 46. Several of Thomas' sons moved from SC to Alabama, John later moved to Texas, but I have no information about them after that. My ancestor, Jeptha Decatur stayed in SC and raised his family. Thanks for any help you can offer. Franki Gwin Cramer Gwin/Guinn/Gwinn/Gwyn Gwin/Littleton/Ross/White/Fort/Champion/Atkinson

You may be interested to know that there is now a Gwyn of Wales tartan. The tartan was registered with the Scottish Tartan Authority a few years ago. See the link below. When you see the tartan click on it to get a better look. _http://www.tartansauthority.com/web/site/tartan_results.asp?txtTartan=Gwyn%20 Of%20Wales_ (http://www.tartansauthority.com/web/site/tartan_results.asp?txtTartan=Gwyn%20Of%20Wales) Apparently there has been an increasing interest in Wales in the design and wear of Welsh tartans. From a commercial standpoint, the Welsh woolen industry certainly supports the creation of Welsh tartans because it helps their business. There is a minor controversy about whether the wearing of tartans fits within the Welsh tradition. However, there is some circumstantial evidence that ancient Welsh tribes wore multi-colored cloth designs somewhat similar to the Gaelic tribes. Here is a link to the Welsh Tartan Centre in Cardiff which sells Welsh family tartans. _http://www.welsh-tartan.com/faqs5.html_ (http://www.welsh-tartan.com/faqs5.html) They have the Gwyn of Wales tartan as a kilt, shawl and as a tie. I sent an e-mail to the company as I was interested in a scarf and they replied that they haven't had enough orders yet to make the Gwyn of Wales tartan available as a scarf--but they may in a year or two. Ron Gwinn

Paul, This is really great on your part! I too would be interested in knowing if there is "Morris Gwyn/Guinn born PA abt 1740 probably around the Philadelphia/Lancaster County area. I know he removed to VA and later to KY, along with his sister Mary Gwyn who married Lewis Garrett of Willistown, PA. Lewis was disowned from the Quakers because he married Mary Gwyn who was not a Quaker. I have Morris Gwyn's will from 1803 (Fayette Co., KY) where he left his entire estate to his sister's Mary Gwyn Garrett's children. Thanks for being so kind. Cheryl ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Gwynn" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2005 12:37 PM Subject: The Book of the Gwinns/Gwynns > Me Again, > > Just for your information, probably the best book I have found on the > Gwynn/Gwinn/Gwin line is the one by Jesse Blaine Gwin. I am not sure when > it was written, but the title is "The History of the > Gwin/Gwinn/Gwinne/Gwynn/Gwyn/Gwynne Family" by Jesse Blaine Gwin. It > covers > many different lines of the earliest families that came to America from > Europe. I found my ancestors there and it might be of value to some of > you. > If you would like, I would be most happy to look up information on an > individual for you that you may be having difficulty with. But give me > some > time, especially if I get a lot of requests. I am going out of town this > weekend, so I will not be back before next Tuesday, but if you want, go > ahead and send your requests and I will do what I can. What I will need, > if > at all possible is a time frame, date of birth or death would be great, > spouse if known, names of parents or siblings or children if known, and > the > area or state where they were supposed to have lived. I will do my best > to > find them if they are in the book. However, just saying can you find > James > Gwin from 1840 will not work. There must be 40 James Gwins in the book. > I > need a bit more information that just the name. > > It is easy to see by reading the book that Gwynns/Gwinns changed the > spelling of their name like most of us change socks. I found out that my > great great great grandfather's real name was Joseph Gwynne, however, that > was also the name of his grandfather, his uncle, and his cousin. So to > make > things easier, they gave him the nickname Josephus. Well, I looked for > years for his ancestors until I ran across two wills on the now defunct (I > think) U.S. Gen Web site that had the will of his grandfather and his > grandmother, both prominently listing Josephus. Long story stort, by > luck, > also found him in the court records in Greene County, Pennsylvania and > what > he had done was left home at the age of 18 and headed west, to Indiana, > where he kept his nickname, dropped the e from his name and thus Josephus > Gwynn, my ggg grandfather, who was actually borne Joseph Gwynne in Greene > County, Pennsylvania. > > I have even found ancestors in my line that spelled the name Gwinn, Gwin, > and one Gwyne. Often, it was not them that did the spelling, as with > census > takers. The one writing it down did not necessarily know hnow to spell > it, > neither did the person giving them the information, and often, it was > spelled the way it sounded. Thus, just because it is spelled differently, > don't be too quick to rule that person out as a possible ancestor. The > best > thing they ever came up with is the Soundex system. That way, even though > you get some unrelated names, you do get all the ones of the various > Gwynn/Gwinn spellings and can more easily wade through that information > rather than just concentrating on spelling, which may or may not be the > one > your ancestors used. Lastly, often they spelled it differently in Europe > than here. I know may Gwynne/Gwinne familes that dropped the e on coming > to > America. Someone told me that although the name is indeed of Welsh > lineage > and ancestry, the e on the end was the "Old English" spelling of the name, > just like in England today, color is spelled "colour". > > Paul > > > > ============================== > Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the > last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx > > >

I am so glad to see this group in discussion. Anyone here descended from Baysden Gwinn, of Spartanburg Co.? Louise Roebuck Cook Lou's surnames:BARKLEY, SC>GA, BROTHERS, AL, CHAMBERLAIN, MD>NC, CHANDLER,VA>TN>GA,Lynch,GA, CHASTEIN/CHASTEEN,GA>AL, DARBY,Eng COOK,PA, CUNNINGHAM, VA, ELLIS, MA>NC>GA, GWIN, SC>AL, Henley, VA>MD>NC>GA HINDMAN, SC>GA, JONES, Cherokee Co,AL, MCCAY, NC, MAYES, NC, McLINN, TN>GA, MONTGOMERY,VA>SC>GA, MORGAN, SC>GA, MANNING, VA, McCONNELL, Scotland>SC,VARNER, SC>GA, WILSON, TN>AL, PHILLIPS,GA>AL, ROEBUCK,SC>GA>AL,POOL, VA>SC>GA, Frank's surnames: ROBERTSON, Scotland>SC, SEYLAR,Germany>PA>IL, SCHREINER, IL, BUCK, IL, CAMPBELL,NC>TN>PA, MORRIS, PA>IL, COPP, NH>IL, Page, MA>IL, STONER/STEINER, Switzerland?PA, HORNER, Ireland>PA, McALLISTER, PA

Hi Janet-- I bought the History of the Gwin Family from the Higginson Book Company. Look at the bottom of this link and you will find the price: _http://www.higginsonbooks.com/grisby-gwynSC5.html_ (http://www.higginsonbooks.com/grisby-gwynSC5.html) I bought a hardcover version and they did a very nice job of binding it. Ron In a message dated 4/6/2005 4:39:50 P.M. Central Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: Ron, Thanks for taking to time to answer. I will look forward to hearing from you about the publishing Company. I know that most genealogy books has errors, but having them helps to sort out the information you have and gives you an idea of other places to look. Thanks! Janet -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2005 3:04 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Does anyone know if this is still available? Janet-- The original publishing date was 1961 (I think) I believe that the book is now public domain and you can get a reprint from any genealogical publisher. I ordered a reprint of it a few years ago. I will check when I get back to my home this evening to see who the publishing company was. The book is a nice resource, but be cautious in using the information in it. Mr. Gwin mainly compiled information from different sources, but did not attempt to verify the information or complete any original research. As a result, there are a lot of known errors in the book. Ron -----Original Message----- From: Janet Bailey Bryant <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 14:20:23 -0500 Subject: Does anyone know if this is still available? Does anyone know if this book is still available. The History of the Gwin/Gwinn/Gwinne/Gwynn/Gwyn/Gwynne Family" by Jesse Blaine Gwin.I would love to purchase a copy. I am a descendant of John Gwin born 1792, that married Elizabeth Roberts. I believe he is the son of John Gwin & Sarah Harper. This John is the son of Mordecai Gwin. Janet ============================== Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx ============================== Find your ancestors in the Birth, Marriage and Death Records. New content added every business day. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13964/rd.ashx ============================== New! Family Tree Maker 2005. Build your tree and search for your ancestors at the same time. Share your tree with family and friends. Learn more: http://landing.ancestry.com/familytreemaker/2005/tour.aspx?sourceid=14599&targetid=54 29

Dodee, Could you look in your book for a Champion Guinn or Guin in Hardin County, Tn around 1850 - 60? If you find him, could you send me the info on ordering the book? Thanks, Margaret Guinn - Tn ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2005 4:29 PM Subject: Book on Guin > Someone let me know about a book that had been written about my line of > Guins. The book is "Remember Mee" by Bertha Cordes Schuchmann of NE Iowa. > > She writes of the move from Ohio to Iowa by Jacob Solomon Guin (Maria > Wade) > and tell the story of James Wilson Guin (Mary Catherine Speed). She > touches on > Jacob's father, Neal Guin who supposedly came from Ireland and also on my > grandfather Edgar LeRoy Guin, son of James. > > It was really good to find some documentation of this line. > > If any one is interested in the book, I have info on ordering it. > > Dodee Guin Davis > > > ============================== > Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your family and the > areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the last 12 months. > Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx >

Hi Davine, My Thomas is found 1790 census in Fairfield Dist SC. He moved to York Co. by 1820 and died there in 1838, the time of his will probate. I have never found a Morris/Maurice amongst the family names, and you are right about the name John. Thomas named his son's Richard, John, Littleton, Thompson, William, Chesley, Jesse, and Jeptha Decatur, his daughters were Mary, Milly, Sarah, Elizabeth and Nancy. Sounds like we have different families, but who knows. Seems to me there were an awful lot of Gwin/Guinn/Gwyn/Gwinn's etc. around during this time period! Thanks for replying. Franki

In a message dated 4/6/05 6:57:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: He moved to SC with his mother Elizabeth {?} and at least two brothers, John and Isham, and joined an uncle, John Gwinn already living there. He appears on the SC 1790 census. He married Elizabeth {Littleton ?} probably in SC. Franki, where was this in SC that your Gwinns lived? I have a Maurice Gwin,Guinn, Gwyn, etc., for whom I am trying to locate parents. He was there in 1757 involved in the Indian Wars, and was granted land in 1762 in the District 96 area, which later became the area of Edgewood and Greenwood Counties. Were there any Morrises or Maurices in your Gwin line? Of course, John is a name used over and over in our line as well as Thomas. Thanks, Davine

I would love to know where these people ended up..John and Mary Gwin were in 1850 census in MaCoupin Co Ill with 3 kids, Hulda, william and alexander...In 1860 they were in Bourbon co ks with 3 more kids Arrenia, Octava and orvil...then, I can't find them anywhere else...John in 1850 census was said to have been born 1824 tn and mary 1824 Mo...then in 1860 census john was born Al and Mary born Oh...I believe Marys maiden name may have been Boswell....Help!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Thanks a bunch ann Givens ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul Gwynn To: [email protected] Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2005 11:37 AM Subject: The Book of the Gwinns/Gwynns Me Again, Just for your information, probably the best book I have found on the Gwynn/Gwinn/Gwin line is the one by Jesse Blaine Gwin. I am not sure when it was written, but the title is "The History of the Gwin/Gwinn/Gwinne/Gwynn/Gwyn/Gwynne Family" by Jesse Blaine Gwin. It covers many different lines of the earliest families that came to America from Europe. I found my ancestors there and it might be of value to some of you. If you would like, I would be most happy to look up information on an individual for you that you may be having difficulty with. But give me some time, especially if I get a lot of requests. I am going out of town this weekend, so I will not be back before next Tuesday, but if you want, go ahead and send your requests and I will do what I can. What I will need, if at all possible is a time frame, date of birth or death would be great, spouse if known, names of parents or siblings or children if known, and the area or state where they were supposed to have lived. I will do my best to find them if they are in the book. However, just saying can you find James Gwin from 1840 will not work. There must be 40 James Gwins in the book. I need a bit more information that just the name. It is easy to see by reading the book that Gwynns/Gwinns changed the spelling of their name like most of us change socks. I found out that my great great great grandfather's real name was Joseph Gwynne, however, that was also the name of his grandfather, his uncle, and his cousin. So to make things easier, they gave him the nickname Josephus. Well, I looked for years for his ancestors until I ran across two wills on the now defunct (I think) U.S. Gen Web site that had the will of his grandfather and his grandmother, both prominently listing Josephus. Long story stort, by luck, also found him in the court records in Greene County, Pennsylvania and what he had done was left home at the age of 18 and headed west, to Indiana, where he kept his nickname, dropped the e from his name and thus Josephus Gwynn, my ggg grandfather, who was actually borne Joseph Gwynne in Greene County, Pennsylvania. I have even found ancestors in my line that spelled the name Gwinn, Gwin, and one Gwyne. Often, it was not them that did the spelling, as with census takers. The one writing it down did not necessarily know hnow to spell it, neither did the person giving them the information, and often, it was spelled the way it sounded. Thus, just because it is spelled differently, don't be too quick to rule that person out as a possible ancestor. The best thing they ever came up with is the Soundex system. That way, even though you get some unrelated names, you do get all the ones of the various Gwynn/Gwinn spellings and can more easily wade through that information rather than just concentrating on spelling, which may or may not be the one your ancestors used. Lastly, often they spelled it differently in Europe than here. I know may Gwynne/Gwinne familes that dropped the e on coming to America. Someone told me that although the name is indeed of Welsh lineage and ancestry, the e on the end was the "Old English" spelling of the name, just like in England today, color is spelled "colour". Paul ============================== Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx

In a message dated 4/6/05 3:05:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: http://members.aol.com/RCGwinn/home.htm Excellent website. Thanks, Davine

Someone let me know about a book that had been written about my line of Guins. The book is "Remember Mee" by Bertha Cordes Schuchmann of NE Iowa. She writes of the move from Ohio to Iowa by Jacob Solomon Guin (Maria Wade) and tell the story of James Wilson Guin (Mary Catherine Speed). She touches on Jacob's father, Neal Guin who supposedly came from Ireland and also on my grandfather Edgar LeRoy Guin, son of James. It was really good to find some documentation of this line. If any one is interested in the book, I have info on ordering it. Dodee Guin Davis

Ron, Thanks for taking to time to answer. I will look forward to hearing from you about the publishing Company. I know that most genealogy books has errors, but having them helps to sort out the information you have and gives you an idea of other places to look. Thanks! Janet -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2005 3:04 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Does anyone know if this is still available? Janet-- The original publishing date was 1961 (I think) I believe that the book is now public domain and you can get a reprint from any genealogical publisher. I ordered a reprint of it a few years ago. I will check when I get back to my home this evening to see who the publishing company was. The book is a nice resource, but be cautious in using the information in it. Mr. Gwin mainly compiled information from different sources, but did not attempt to verify the information or complete any original research. As a result, there are a lot of known errors in the book. Ron -----Original Message----- From: Janet Bailey Bryant <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 14:20:23 -0500 Subject: Does anyone know if this is still available? Does anyone know if this book is still available. The History of the Gwin/Gwinn/Gwinne/Gwynn/Gwyn/Gwynne Family" by Jesse Blaine Gwin.I would love to purchase a copy. I am a descendant of John Gwin born 1792, that married Elizabeth Roberts. I believe he is the son of John Gwin & Sarah Harper. This John is the son of Mordecai Gwin. Janet ============================== Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx ============================== Find your ancestors in the Birth, Marriage and Death Records. New content added every business day. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13964/rd.ashx

Janet-- The original publishing date was 1961 (I think) I believe that the book is now public domain and you can get a reprint from any genealogical publisher. I ordered a reprint of it a few years ago. I will check when I get back to my home this evening to see who the publishing company was. The book is a nice resource, but be cautious in using the information in it. Mr. Gwin mainly compiled information from different sources, but did not attempt to verify the information or complete any original research. As a result, there are a lot of known errors in the book. Ron -----Original Message----- From: Janet Bailey Bryant <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 14:20:23 -0500 Subject: Does anyone know if this is still available? Does anyone know if this book is still available. The History of the Gwin/Gwinn/Gwinne/Gwynn/Gwyn/Gwynne Family" by Jesse Blaine Gwin.I would love to purchase a copy. I am a descendant of John Gwin born 1792, that married Elizabeth Roberts. I believe he is the son of John Gwin & Sarah Harper. This John is the son of Mordecai Gwin. Janet ============================== Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx

What a generous offer Paul, so here goes. My Guinn/Gwinn/Gwin line starts as far as I know in VA with Thomas Guinn the first one that I have documented information on. Thomas was born 1764 in VA. It is family story that his father was killed/died in 1776 maybe on Gwynn Island {no proof of that location.} He moved to SC with his mother Elizabeth {?} and at least two brothers, John and Isham, and joined an uncle, John Gwinn already living there. He appears on the SC 1790 census. He married Elizabeth {Littleton ?} probably in SC. He also named his first son Richard, and wonder if this may have been his father's first name. Thomas had eight son's however. I can not get back or beyond him in VA but it is my feeling that the family came to this country well before the Revolution. His name usually appears spelled Guinn, however I find different spellings for him and his many sons. There is also a family story about this line being from Hugh Gwynn, I think many l! ines find this in their oral traditions and "could be stories". Another story however I am curious about, has to do with a young Indian {native American} woman, a near drowning and a rescue by a supposed Gwyn/Guinn ancestor. Does your book mention such an incident? Way back when? Even with its obvious errors the Blaine book sounds like worthwhile reading. Hope to find it. Thanks for any help you can give me. Franki Gwin Cramer

Thanks, Paul. Well said. I greatly appreciate your open-minded and fair response. The best genealogy lists are those where folks can have a frank and honest discussion about genealogy without anyone taking it personal. Challenging each other's information (not the person) is one way we learn from each other. I always appreciate it when people play the devil's advocate with my conclusions as it often gives me another perspective or approach to genealogy research. As long as we all can do this, we will have a great genealogy list! (It has been a long time since there has been any action on this list.) Best wishes! Ron PS---If anyone is interested, here is a link to my genealogy page with my line of descent http://members.aol.com/RCGwinn/home.htm -----Original Message----- From: Paul Gwynn <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 11:54:48 -0500 Subject: RE: Alleged Descent of Gwins from Owain ap Gruffydd, Prince of Gwynnedd (d. 1170) Ron, No offense taken and it was not my intention to stir up controversy, just share with others what I had. To me, and this is a personal thing, the origin of the Gwynn/Gwinn name is less important to me than who my ancestors were. And, if I can document them, I don't care if my ggggggg grandfathers name was Virgil Scruggs. I am interested in the genealogy of my line, not the history of the family name. That is where I am coming from. And you are quite right, Jesse Blaine Gwin's book does indeed continue the genealogy of the Ancient Kings of Britain. For me, whether or not it is true is less important that the fact it give me a reference point from which to work to or from. Whether it pans out to be correct or not is not of value to me. All I am interested in is who "my" ancestors are, wherever they came from and whatever name they had. In fact, once I find a direct ancestor, female, then the direct ancestoral line is broken at that point, and I become an ancestor by marriage only and not a direct ancestor. So to me, documentation on one's true ancestors is more valuable that where the "name" might have orginated from. I was only giving the group what my uncle had been given all those years ago. I have not verified anything other than my direct line and those that might be ancestors yet undocumented. It was not my intention to stir up controvery. However, I might point out one salient point. As Johnny Depp pointed out as Jack Sparrow in Pirates of the Caribbean, "Where do the stories come from then, I wonder". Well, prior to 1600, there weren't any Gwynns/Gwinns, etc. in America, just Native Americans. So hey had to come from somewhere. And since most of the earliest colonist came from Europe and Great Britain, one of them must have come here, even if no one has "found" the connection yet............ Paul -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2005 11:17 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Alleged Descent of Gwins from Owain ap Gruffydd, Prince of Gwynnedd (d. 1170) Please forgive me as I hate to be the killjoy of the list , but here goes ... First, and most important, not all Gwins, Gwyns, or Wynns are related—in fact there are probably multiple entirely unrelated Gwin lines. The surname arose from the descriptive nickname “gwyn” that was later adopted in some cases as a family name and not from a single family descended from Owain, Prince of Gwynedd. The Gwin family descent from Owain, Prince of Gwynedd, as contained in the “The Prehistoric Kings of Britain” is a pseudo-genealogy with little relationship to fact. It even mangles the names of important historical figures—for example, Gwenedda Whedig is really Cunedda the Great aka Cunedda Gwledig (in modern English this would be “Kenneth the Landholder”). See http://www.bardsongpress.com/cunedda.htm This pseudo-genealogy is often sited in various works including Jesse Blaine Gwin’s History of the Gwin Family. Here are two of the problems with this genealogy: 1. The Claimed Descent of Sir John Wynn of Gwydir from the Princes of Gwynedd: This part of the pseudo-genealogy is traceable to Sir John Wynn himself. Around 1580 Sir John Wynn wrote the History of the Gwydir Family and Memoirs. This work provides a rare and fascinating look at the rising power and times of an Elizabethan gentry family—the Wynns of Gwydir. In his History, Sir John claims a lineage that dates back several centuries to Owain ap Gruffydd, Prince of Gwynedd and Gruffydd ap Cynan, King of Gwynedd (c1055-1137). However, scholars agree that this lineage was “made up” to increase the political and personal prestige of Sir John and his family. Here is a quote from the introduction to the 1990 Gomer Press publication of the Sir John’s History by J. Gwynfor Jones, Senior Lecturer in Welsh History in the School of History and Archaeology, University of Wales College of Cardiff: “Sir John Wynn’s kinsmen could really only have traced their ancestry and ascendancy to a group of free-holders from Pennant and Penyfed townships in fourteenth-century Eifionydd, though he himself would have his readers believe that his stock had descended from Gruffudd ap Cynan.” The genealogical carving memorialized in the chapel at Gwydir is based on this pseudo-genealogy claimed by Sir John Wynn Here is a link to the Gwydir Castle website http://www.gwydir-castle.co.uk/index.htm for more information on the “castle” and the influential Wynns of Gwydir. 2. The Undocumented Descent of Current Day Gwin Families in America from Sir John Wynn. The pseudo-genealogy attempts to claim Colonel Hugh Gwyn (or Gwin) of Gwynn’s Island, Virginia (c1690s) as a descendent of Sir John Wynn of Gwydir. However, there is no documentation of this and we also know that Sir John’s male line died out! No one has to date successfully identified and documented the ancestors of Colonel Hugh Gwyn of Virginia. Sir John Wynn had an uncle John Gwynn of St. John’s College, Cambridge. It is possible that some American Gwins may be descended from this John Gwynn—but this is only speculation on my part. As late as the nineteenth-century, in the United Kingdom, there were Gwynn gentry families that could, I believe, legitimately trace their ancestry to the ancient Princes of Powys and some that claimed descent from the Irish-born chieftain and sub-King of Brecknock, Brychan Brycheiniog. I don’t know if any of these families continue to this day and again, there is no documented link to any American Gwins or Gwyns. Best wishes! Ron Gwinn -----Original Message----- From: Paul Gwynn <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 15:54:59 -0500 Subject: RE: Origin of the Gwinn, Gwyn, Guin name I have done a lot of research on the Gwynn/Gwinn lines, all spellings and the name variation can be traced back to Owain Gwynedd, the common ancestor of both lines. I had a rich uncle who years ago spent a ton of money to have the name researched and what he found was that Owain Gwynedd was the common ancestor of both lines and was married twice. First to Glawdys, from which the Gwynn/Gwinn line springs and secondly to his cousin Christian. From his first marriage to Glawdys, the main Gwynn line is continued through his son Iowerth. From his marriage to Christian springs the Wynn/Winn lines In those days, you did not want to be the bastard son or daughter of anyone, so to prevent this, Owain Gwynedds decendents of his second marriage dropped the G from the name and were forever afterward known as the Wynn/Winn line. I verified much of this on a trip to the ancestrial home of both lines, Llanwrst, Wales in 2001. I visited Gwydir Castle as well as Gwydir Chapel where Llwellyn the Great is buried in the floor. Fantastic trip. Unfortunately, Gwydir castle is not longer in possession of any one in the Gwynn/Gwinn/Wynn/Winn lines and has been purchased by some other people who have no relationship to the history or the family. Here in it's entirety is the documentation he was given: "The Prehistoric Kings of Britain" 1, Gwenedda Whedig, King of Cumberland, 328 A.D., founder of the Holy Tribe of Britain, first cousin to Constantine the Great, Emperor of Rome, had; 2, Einion Yrth; 3, Caswallawn Lawhir; 4, Maclgwyn Gwynedd; 5, Rhun; 6, Beli; 7, King Iago; 8, Cadvan, King; 9, Cadwaladyr Vindigouel, last King of the Britons, died at Rome in 688 A.D.; 10, Idwal Iurch; 11, Rhodri Molynog, 720 A.D.; 12, Cynan Tyndoethny; 13, Mervyn, King of Manessylt; 14, Rhodri Mawr; 15, Merig Ieuanf; 16, Idwal; 17, Iago, 18, Prince Cynan; 19, Gruffydd; 20, Owain Gwynedd, XI century, first married Glawdys, daughter of Llowarch ap Trahaern, Lord of Pembroke. He married secondly, his cousin Christian, from who was issued the Wynns of Gwydir Llanrwst, of whom the present representatives are Earls and Ancaster; Carrington and Sir W. Wynn, Bart. Here is shown that the Gwynns and Wynns are of the same ancestry, both issued from Owain Gwynedd, the Wynns coming from his second marriage to his cousin, Christian. From his first marriage to Glawdys, the main Gwynn line is continued through his son Iowerth. 21, Prince Iowerth Drwyndwn; 22, Prince Llewelyn, 23, Prince Gruffydd = first Eleanor, daughter of Simon Montfort, and wife, Eleanor, daughter of King John of England, and wife, Isabella de la Marche; 24, Prince Llwelyn, killed by treachery at Bulith, A.D. 1282 = Eleanor, daughter of Princess Eleanor and Henri Compta de Bari, daughter of Edward I, King of England, and wife Eleanor, daughter of Ferdinand III, King of Castile; 25, Princess Eleanor (Goch); 26, Thomas = Princess Catherine; 27, Lady Eleanor, eldest daughter and representative of the Princes of Wales = Gruffydd Nyehan, Lord of Glyntfrdy; 27, Margaret, younger sister and co-heiress = Sir Tudar ap Grono of Pennrynydd, junior line to Henry VII of England. 28, Owain Glyndwr, elder representative of the Princes of Wales, crowned at Mochyulleth; 28, Tudor Glyndwr, second son; junior representative of the Princes of Wales, killed in battle in 1405 = Maude, daughter and heiress to Ienaf ap Hywel, to Tudor Trevor; 29, Gruffydd, and 29, Moredydd, sons of Owain Glyndwr (See Mss of Powy's Fadog and Taicrocsion Mss.). Gruffydd ap Einon of Kors-y-Gedol = Louri, and had Isan Gruffydd, eldest son, and Tudyr. From the two eldest came many American families, among others the Winns and Lloyds, of Philadelphia. From Sir John Wynn, knight and baronet, came Captain Owin Gwynn, ancestor of this branch of the family. To the memory of his father, Sir John Wynn, and wife Sidney Gerard, is erected a tablet in Gwydir Chapel, Llanrwst, in which may be found many tablets confirming this pedigree. (Ref: Meade's "Old Churches and Families," Brown's Genesis of U.S.," and "Cabells and Their Kin")." Sometimes the change in spelling was made in Europe before the family migrated and sometimes after arrival in America. There are few surnames in America, the spelling of which, have not been changed many times. While the roots of our system of family names may be traced to civilized times, actually the hereditary surname as we know it today dates from a time scarcely earlier than 900 years ago. True surnames in the sense of hereditary designations date in England from about 1000 A.D., but even by 1465, hereditary names were not universal. During the reign of Edward V, a law was passed to compel Irish tribes to adopt surnames. Many surnames of today which are difficult to classify or explain are corruption's of ancient forms. Longfellow, for example, was originally Longueville, Diggers was Douglas, Winch was Renshaw, and Gwynn and Wynn were Gwynedd. Variations have resulted from ignorance in spelling variations in pronunciation or merely from preference. Those Americans who possess old and honored names and who can trace the history of their surnames back to sturdy immigrant ancestors or even beyond to the old world and into the dim past, should be proud of their heritage. There were many Gwynns among the early pioneers. We should all be interested in tracing our family lines and in learning the history of our ancestors, for genealogical study represents an interesting and intriguing approach to the history of our country. A study of the individual family records, and certainly a study of the Gwynns, makes our pioneer history come alive. Additionally, it is our heritage, and our past, our legacy to our children. It is a part of who we are and where we came from. Hope this helps. Paul Gwynn [email protected] -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 3:28 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Origin of the Gwinn, Gwyn, Guin name Hi Terry-- My understanding is that the existance of the surname Wynn is because of a mutation that regularly occurs in the Welsh and other Celtic languanges where certain consonants are dropped off or replaced by another. Here is an example of the "G" being dropped: gafr = a goat ei afr = his goat Here is a link to a website that explains how mutations work---but be warned it is complex. It gives me a headache just thinking about it! http://www.clwbmalucachu.co.uk/cheat/cheat_mutations.htm -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Sent: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 15:46:20 EDT Subject: Re: Origin of the Gwinn, Gwyn, Guin name If memory serves, the names of father/ son changed from generation to generation in Welsh naming patterns. The father was a Gwinn his son's surname would be a Winn the son of that Winn would have the surname of Gwinn. I was told this on trip to Wales some years ago. Terry Coats Nashville TN ============================== New! Family Tree Maker 2005. Build your tree and search for your ancestors at the same time. Share your tree with family and friends. Learn more: http://landing.ancestry.com/familytreemaker/2005/tour.aspx?sourceid=14599&ta rgetid=5429 ============================== Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your family and the areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the last 12 months. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx ============================== New! Family Tree Maker 2005. Build your tree and search for your ancestors at the same time. Share your tree with family and friends. Learn more: http://landing.ancestry.com/familytreemaker/2005/tour.aspx?sourceid=14599&targetid=5429 ============================== Jumpstart your genealogy with OneWorldTree. Search not only for ancestors, but entire generations. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13972/rd.ashx ============================== Census images 1901, 1891, 1881 and 1871, plus so much more. Ancestry.com's United Kingdom & Ireland Collection. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13968/rd.ashx

Does anyone know if this book is still available. The History of the Gwin/Gwinn/Gwinne/Gwynn/Gwyn/Gwynne Family" by Jesse Blaine Gwin.I would love to purchase a copy. I am a descendant of John Gwin born 1792, that married Elizabeth Roberts. I believe he is the son of John Gwin & Sarah Harper. This John is the son of Mordecai Gwin. Janet

Please forgive me as I hate to be the killjoy of the list , but here goes ... First, and most important, not all Gwins, Gwyns, or Wynns are related—in fact there are probably multiple entirely unrelated Gwin lines. The surname arose from the descriptive nickname “gwyn” that was later adopted in some cases as a family name and not from a single family descended from Owain, Prince of Gwynedd. The Gwin family descent from Owain, Prince of Gwynedd, as contained in the “The Prehistoric Kings of Britain” is a pseudo-genealogy with little relationship to fact. It even mangles the names of important historical figures—for example, Gwenedda Whedig is really Cunedda the Great aka Cunedda Gwledig (in modern English this would be “Kenneth the Landholder”). See http://www.bardsongpress.com/cunedda.htm This pseudo-genealogy is often sited in various works including Jesse Blaine Gwin’s History of the Gwin Family. Here are two of the problems with this genealogy: 1. The Claimed Descent of Sir John Wynn of Gwydir from the Princes of Gwynedd: This part of the pseudo-genealogy is traceable to Sir John Wynn himself. Around 1580 Sir John Wynn wrote the History of the Gwydir Family and Memoirs. This work provides a rare and fascinating look at the rising power and times of an Elizabethan gentry family—the Wynns of Gwydir. In his History, Sir John claims a lineage that dates back several centuries to Owain ap Gruffydd, Prince of Gwynedd and Gruffydd ap Cynan, King of Gwynedd (c1055-1137). However, scholars agree that this lineage was “made up” to increase the political and personal prestige of Sir John and his family. Here is a quote from the introduction to the 1990 Gomer Press publication of the Sir John’s History by J. Gwynfor Jones, Senior Lecturer in Welsh History in the School of History and Archaeology, University of Wales College of Cardiff: “Sir John Wynn’s kinsmen could really only have traced their ancestry and ascendancy to a group of free-holders from Pennant and Penyfed townships in fourteenth-century Eifionydd, though he himself would have his readers believe that his stock had descended from Gruffudd ap Cynan.” The genealogical carving memorialized in the chapel at Gwydir is based on this pseudo-genealogy claimed by Sir John Wynn Here is a link to the Gwydir Castle website http://www.gwydir-castle.co.uk/index.htm for more information on the “castle” and the influential Wynns of Gwydir. 2. The Undocumented Descent of Current Day Gwin Families in America from Sir John Wynn. The pseudo-genealogy attempts to claim Colonel Hugh Gwyn (or Gwin) of Gwynn’s Island, Virginia (c1690s) as a descendent of Sir John Wynn of Gwydir. However, there is no documentation of this and we also know that Sir John’s male line died out! No one has to date successfully identified and documented the ancestors of Colonel Hugh Gwyn of Virginia. Sir John Wynn had an uncle John Gwynn of St. John’s College, Cambridge. It is possible that some American Gwins may be descended from this John Gwynn—but this is only speculation on my part. As late as the nineteenth-century, in the United Kingdom, there were Gwynn gentry families that could, I believe, legitimately trace their ancestry to the ancient Princes of Powys and some that claimed descent from the Irish-born chieftain and sub-King of Brecknock, Brychan Brycheiniog. I don’t know if any of these families continue to this day and again, there is no documented link to any American Gwins or Gwyns. Best wishes! Ron Gwinn -----Original Message----- From: Paul Gwynn <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 15:54:59 -0500 Subject: RE: Origin of the Gwinn, Gwyn, Guin name I have done a lot of research on the Gwynn/Gwinn lines, all spellings and the name variation can be traced back to Owain Gwynedd, the common ancestor of both lines. I had a rich uncle who years ago spent a ton of money to have the name researched and what he found was that Owain Gwynedd was the common ancestor of both lines and was married twice. First to Glawdys, from which the Gwynn/Gwinn line springs and secondly to his cousin Christian. From his first marriage to Glawdys, the main Gwynn line is continued through his son Iowerth. From his marriage to Christian springs the Wynn/Winn lines In those days, you did not want to be the bastard son or daughter of anyone, so to prevent this, Owain Gwynedds decendents of his second marriage dropped the G from the name and were forever afterward known as the Wynn/Winn line. I verified much of this on a trip to the ancestrial home of both lines, Llanwrst, Wales in 2001. I visited Gwydir Castle as well as Gwydir Chapel where Llwellyn the Great is buried in the floor. Fantastic trip. Unfortunately, Gwydir castle is not longer in possession of any one in the Gwynn/Gwinn/Wynn/Winn lines and has been purchased by some other people who have no relationship to the history or the family. Here in it's entirety is the documentation he was given: "The Prehistoric Kings of Britain" 1, Gwenedda Whedig, King of Cumberland, 328 A.D., founder of the Holy Tribe of Britain, first cousin to Constantine the Great, Emperor of Rome, had; 2, Einion Yrth; 3, Caswallawn Lawhir; 4, Maclgwyn Gwynedd; 5, Rhun; 6, Beli; 7, King Iago; 8, Cadvan, King; 9, Cadwaladyr Vindigouel, last King of the Britons, died at Rome in 688 A.D.; 10, Idwal Iurch; 11, Rhodri Molynog, 720 A.D.; 12, Cynan Tyndoethny; 13, Mervyn, King of Manessylt; 14, Rhodri Mawr; 15, Merig Ieuanf; 16, Idwal; 17, Iago, 18, Prince Cynan; 19, Gruffydd; 20, Owain Gwynedd, XI century, first married Glawdys, daughter of Llowarch ap Trahaern, Lord of Pembroke. He married secondly, his cousin Christian, from who was issued the Wynns of Gwydir Llanrwst, of whom the present representatives are Earls and Ancaster; Carrington and Sir W. Wynn, Bart. Here is shown that the Gwynns and Wynns are of the same ancestry, both issued from Owain Gwynedd, the Wynns coming from his second marriage to his cousin, Christian. From his first marriage to Glawdys, the main Gwynn line is continued through his son Iowerth. 21, Prince Iowerth Drwyndwn; 22, Prince Llewelyn, 23, Prince Gruffydd = first Eleanor, daughter of Simon Montfort, and wife, Eleanor, daughter of King John of England, and wife, Isabella de la Marche; 24, Prince Llwelyn, killed by treachery at Bulith, A.D. 1282 = Eleanor, daughter of Princess Eleanor and Henri Compta de Bari, daughter of Edward I, King of England, and wife Eleanor, daughter of Ferdinand III, King of Castile; 25, Princess Eleanor (Goch); 26, Thomas = Princess Catherine; 27, Lady Eleanor, eldest daughter and representative of the Princes of Wales = Gruffydd Nyehan, Lord of Glyntfrdy; 27, Margaret, younger sister and co-heiress = Sir Tudar ap Grono of Pennrynydd, junior line to Henry VII of England. 28, Owain Glyndwr, elder representative of the Princes of Wales, crowned at Mochyulleth; 28, Tudor Glyndwr, second son; junior representative of the Princes of Wales, killed in battle in 1405 = Maude, daughter and heiress to Ienaf ap Hywel, to Tudor Trevor; 29, Gruffydd, and 29, Moredydd, sons of Owain Glyndwr (See Mss of Powy's Fadog and Taicrocsion Mss.). Gruffydd ap Einon of Kors-y-Gedol = Louri, and had Isan Gruffydd, eldest son, and Tudyr. From the two eldest came many American families, among others the Winns and Lloyds, of Philadelphia. From Sir John Wynn, knight and baronet, came Captain Owin Gwynn, ancestor of this branch of the family. To the memory of his father, Sir John Wynn, and wife Sidney Gerard, is erected a tablet in Gwydir Chapel, Llanrwst, in which may be found many tablets confirming this pedigree. (Ref: Meade's "Old Churches and Families," Brown's Genesis of U.S.," and "Cabells and Their Kin")." Sometimes the change in spelling was made in Europe before the family migrated and sometimes after arrival in America. There are few surnames in America, the spelling of which, have not been changed many times. While the roots of our system of family names may be traced to civilized times, actually the hereditary surname as we know it today dates from a time scarcely earlier than 900 years ago. True surnames in the sense of hereditary designations date in England from about 1000 A.D., but even by 1465, hereditary names were not universal. During the reign of Edward V, a law was passed to compel Irish tribes to adopt surnames. Many surnames of today which are difficult to classify or explain are corruption's of ancient forms. Longfellow, for example, was originally Longueville, Diggers was Douglas, Winch was Renshaw, and Gwynn and Wynn were Gwynedd. Variations have resulted from ignorance in spelling variations in pronunciation or merely from preference. Those Americans who possess old and honored names and who can trace the history of their surnames back to sturdy immigrant ancestors or even beyond to the old world and into the dim past, should be proud of their heritage. There were many Gwynns among the early pioneers. We should all be interested in tracing our family lines and in learning the history of our ancestors, for genealogical study represents an interesting and intriguing approach to the history of our country. A study of the individual family records, and certainly a study of the Gwynns, makes our pioneer history come alive. Additionally, it is our heritage, and our past, our legacy to our children. It is a part of who we are and where we came from. Hope this helps. Paul Gwynn [email protected] -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 3:28 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Origin of the Gwinn, Gwyn, Guin name Hi Terry-- My understanding is that the existance of the surname Wynn is because of a mutation that regularly occurs in the Welsh and other Celtic languanges where certain consonants are dropped off or replaced by another. Here is an example of the "G" being dropped: gafr = a goat ei afr = his goat Here is a link to a website that explains how mutations work---but be warned it is complex. It gives me a headache just thinking about it! http://www.clwbmalucachu.co.uk/cheat/cheat_mutations.htm -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Sent: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 15:46:20 EDT Subject: Re: Origin of the Gwinn, Gwyn, Guin name If memory serves, the names of father/ son changed from generation to generation in Welsh naming patterns. The father was a Gwinn his son's surname would be a Winn the son of that Winn would have the surname of Gwinn. I was told this on trip to Wales some years ago. Terry Coats Nashville TN ============================== New! Family Tree Maker 2005. Build your tree and search for your ancestors at the same time. Share your tree with family and friends. Learn more: http://landing.ancestry.com/familytreemaker/2005/tour.aspx?sourceid=14599&ta rgetid=5429 ============================== Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your family and the areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the last 12 months. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx ============================== New! Family Tree Maker 2005. Build your tree and search for your ancestors at the same time. Share your tree with family and friends. Learn more: http://landing.ancestry.com/familytreemaker/2005/tour.aspx?sourceid=14599&targetid=5429