November 18, 2004 Want to Buy Your Family's Coat of Arms? Many people like to purchase Christmas gifts that are "personal." What can be more personal than one's name? I bet that thousands of people will give presents this year that depict a family coat of arms printed on paper, suitable for framing. They also may give coats of arms on t-shirts, sweatshirts, golf jerseys, stationery, coffee mugs, or even key chains. There is only one problem: almost all of them are bogus! In many shopping malls across America, you will see pushcart vendors selling reproductions of coats of arms, claiming to be the "proud history and heritage of your family name" or some such words. Similar "businesses" exist on the Web. A number of Web sites proclaim that they can sell you "authentic" copies of your family's coat of arms. I have one thing to say to these con artists: "Balderdash!" Actually, that's not my first choice of response, but that word will have to suffice in this family newsletter. The study of coats of arms is called heraldry. Those who control the issuance of arms are the heralds. Typically, each country in Western Europe as well as in England, Scotland, and Ireland has an office of the heralds, sometimes called the Kings of Arms. The heralds are empowered to decide who is authorized to display a certain coat of arms. If you do not have authorization from the heralds, you are not authorized to display any coat of arms. The rules are a bit different in the Netherlands and in some eastern European countries. Most Americans seem ignorant of one very basic fact: in most of Western Europe and in all of the British Isles, there is no such thing as a "family coat of arms." A coat of arms is issued to one person, not to a family. After that person is deceased, his primary heir (normally the oldest son) may apply for the same coat of arms. Again, when he dies, his heir may apply. The rules for determining who is eligible to display a coat of arms are very similar to the rules for becoming King or Queen of England. However, even the proper heir cannot display the coat of arms until he or she has received authorization (been confirmed) by the heralds. At any one time, only one person may rightfully display a coat of arms. According to the American College of Heraldry, "While Americans are usually fascinated by the beauty of heraldry, they are rarely familiar with its meaning and traditions and, therefore, often misunderstand and even abuse this rich cultural heritage. They seldom understand that a coat of arms is usually granted, certified, registered or otherwise recognized as belonging to one individual alone, and that only his direct descendants with proven lineage can be recognized as eligible to inherit the arms. Exceptions to this rule are rare." The American College of Heraldry also says, "It is highly inappropriate for one to locate the arms of another person sharing the same surname, and to simply adopt and use these arms as one's own." My interpretation of this is that, if you are displaying an unauthorized coat of arms, you are impersonating someone else. The College of Arms in England (the heralds for English, Welsh, Northern Irish, and Commonwealth families) says, "For any person to have a right to a coat of arms, they must either have had it granted to them or be descended in the legitimate male line from a person to whom arms were granted or confirmed in the past." Despite these warnings, many vendors are making money by preying on Americans' ignorance of the topic. The pushcarts you see in shopping malls typically are franchise operations. One pushcart owner told me that he paid $6,000 for a "franchise" to sell this stuff. The so-called franchise did not include a protected territory; another franchisee was free to set up business in the same area. For the $6,000 investment, the franchisee receives a computer with a database containing thousands of surnames and so-called "family coats of arms," a high-quality printer, a supply of parchment paper, and a supply of coffee cups, key chains and other paraphernalia. These franchisees reportedly receive no training in the study of heraldry. The ones I have talked to didn't recognize the term "College of Arms." The Web sites aren't much better. The ones I have looked at seem to have carefully-worded claims. Instead of saying, "your family's coat of arms," they will say something like "your historical namesakes." Okay, "namesakes" has a different meaning than "ancestors," but it still can be misleading to many people. When a Web site proclaims, "your historical namesakes," most people will think this means "my family." However, if argued in court, the wording on the Web site would probably be considered correct. In short, their statements are legally correct. I doubt if any of these companies will ever be shut down for misrepresenting their wares. The next time someone offers a copy of your "family's coat of arms," ask them for the documentation. They won't have any. If a friend of yours is displaying a coat of arms on his stationery or on his fireplace mantel, I suggest you simply walk away smiling. There's no sense in upsetting a good friendship. But don't be as gullible as your friend. And please, please do not display your "family's coat of arms" on your genealogy Web site unless you have been confirmed by the heralds, okay? If you would like to learn more about the serious study of heraldry and any rights you might have to display a coat of arms, there are a number of Web sites devoted to the truth. Here is a short list of some of the more reputable ones: The College of Arms (the official repository of the coats of arms and pedigrees of English, Welsh, Northern Irish and Commonwealth families and their descendants). This site is operated by the British government: http://www.college-of-arms.gov.uk/ The Augustan Society at: http://www.augustansociety.org The American College of Heraldry at: http://www.americancollegeofheraldry.org The Baronage Press at: http://www.baronage.co.uk/ None of the above sell printouts on parchment paper, t-shirts, or key chains. However, some of them do sell books and magazines devoted to the study of heraldry. If you use a search engine, you can find many Web sites that claim they can sell "your family's coat of arms" to you. However, you now know that any site that purports to sell "your family coat of arms" is a rip-off. Posted by Dick Eastman on November 18, 2004 at 07:00 AM | Eastman's Online Genealogy Newsletter http://eogn.typepad.com/eastmans_online_genealogy/2004/11/want_to_buy_you.html#more

Bladerdash, Mr. Eastman, ..if a person feels proud of his ancestry and wants to us that family coat of arms, there is simply no reason why they should not. We are not talking about aristocracy here. If I decide to use the Guthrie coat of arms on my website or stationary I'll do so. I'm not indicating I am the one "next in line" to inherit. I'm saying I'm proud to be a Guthrie and proud of the traditions that the coat of arms represent. The rich cultural heritage that you talk about no longer has any reason for being. The way it's being used and understood today has more reason and purpose than merely to indicate the one individual "next in line" It is used today to indicate that a person is a member of a family, not to mean the head of the family. You failed to point out that when a person was granted the use of a coat of arms they were responsible for all those other folks in their family and extended family and were supposed to protect and care for them. Sort of like gangs do today. Finally most "heads of family" cannot be determined today. No proper individual could be identified to wear the coat of arms. So again, your rich tradition is dying if not dead. Bladerdash. Larry lguthrie@brightok.net

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Surnames: Guthrie, Harrison, Wales Classification: Query Message Board URL: http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec/msg/an/IBh.2ACIB/1275 Message Board Post: Seeking information of Archibald and Jane (Harrison) Guthrie. Immigrated from Scotland to Canada, settled in Point Edward, Ontario during late 1870's. Son John, born Point Edward or Sarnia Ontario, married Dalphine (no last name known, is from France) Dalphine was war bride of 1st World War. They lived, died in New York City..227 W. 22nd St NY, NY. I have no further information of John & Dalphine. They have no known issue. All other children except Robert, were born in, died in Lambton County, Ontario, Canada. "Rob" married Evelyn and resided, died in the Toronto, Ontario area. My grandmother, Isabelle married "Fred' Wales. Lived, died in Sarnia, Ontario, Canada

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Classification: Query Message Board URL: http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec/msg/an/IBh.2ACIB/1214.3 Message Board Post: Debbie, I am the great granddaughter of Christopher Columbus Guthrie. He was born in Alabama March 15, 1858 and died in Brownwood, Brown County, Tx on August 23, 1955 and is buried in Comanche County, Tx. I have pictures of him when he was blind in his later years. He lived with my mom Dorothy Guthrie and her family. Her dad was Marion Edward Guthrie, who is the son of Christopher from his 1st wife Missie Carroll. If you would like to E-mail me, I can send you what I have and get the pictures from my mother. I can also have her write down stories of him. He had cataracts on his eyes and when the Dr.'s removed them, he went blind. He always rocked my mom and sibling's when they were little. I also have a picture of his grave. He was a farmer. Please contact me my E-mail is tinashelton@charter.net. I have more. Hope this helps Tina Shelton

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Classification: Query Message Board URL: http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec/msg/an/IBh.2ACIB/1274 Message Board Post: Hi Am looking for relatives of James Guthrie of Scotland who survived the 1917 Laconia sinking Mike

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Classification: Query Message Board URL: http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec/msg/rw/IBh.2ACIB/1273.1 Message Board Post: Debra, you responded to my Sept. 19th posting. I have found my Benjamin Franklin Taylor in Jamestown New York and Riceville, Pennsylvania. I have not come across anything on the NC Benjamin. If you find anything on my Benjamin I'd appreciate your sharing with me. I think I have found two wives for my Benjamin, Mindwell Fuller and Sarah? I will share anything I find with you also. If you care to you can respond using my e-mail address. Thanks

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Classification: Query Message Board URL: http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec/msg/rw/IBh.2ACIB/1273 Message Board Post: Great granddaughter seeking information on lineage. Benjamin Franklin Taylor and Carrie Guthrie Taylor has two sons: Egbert (1886-1957) and Walter (1889-1974). Both sons buried in the National Cemetery, New Bern, NC. Walter married Effie Daisy Brinkley (1893-1980). They raised a foster son, George Lathel Lupton, and had two children of their own; Otha Graham Taylor (abt. 1923-1985) and Nanette Taylor (1933-1990). Any information would be greatly appreciated and can be directed through email for fastest response.

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Classification: Query Message Board URL: http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec/msg/rw/IBh.2ACIB/1123.2.1.1.1.3 Message Board Post: Hi, I'm trying to find out information on my husband's great grandfather. His name was Elmer F. Guthrie. I know he was born in Iowa in 1880 and his parents were also born in Iowa (as that is what it says on the 1910 Erie, PA census where Elmer F. Guthrie lived). Is this related to the Guthries in Iowa you're inquiring about? Thanks!

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Classification: Query Message Board URL: http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec/msg/rw/IBh.2ACIB/2.3.33.44.67 Message Board Post: While I realize this is a long shot...do you know if there is any information in the book on Elmer Guthrie (born in Iowa in 1880, lived in PA in the early 1900s). Thanks! klschwartz@earthlink.net

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Classification: Query Message Board URL: http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec/msg/rw/IBh.2ACIB/1159.1.1 Message Board Post: Hi, I am trying to find out information about Elmer F. Guthrie who was born in Iowa in 1880. I can't get information beyond him (although the 1910 Erie, PA census notes that Elmer's parents were both born in Iowa as was he). Do you know if he could be related to the Elmer family your post is about?

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Classification: Query Message Board URL: http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec/msg/rw/IBh.2ACIB/2.3.90 Message Board Post: Hi, Do you where I can see that book on Guthries in America? Thanks

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Classification: Query Message Board URL: http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec/msg/rw/IBh.2ACIB/1117.2.1.1 Message Board Post: The latter one in your post is the man I'm trying to find out about - the 1910 Erie, PA census that has his wife and two kids (Rex & Donald) and both Elmer's parents were from Iowa. The other Elmer you listed wouldn't be the same one since he was born in Ohio after 1880 (whereas "my" Elmer was born in 1880 in Iowa). Do you know of any information on the PA Elmer Guthrie? Thanks! :)

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Surnames: Guthrie Classification: Query Message Board URL: http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec/msg/rw/IBh.2ACIB/1117.2.1 Message Board Post: i came across a Elmer F. Guthrie in 1900 OH census b. Aug 1878 IA both parents born IA married to a Maryanne (not sure on spelling) b. Dec 1880 OH lists as having 1 kid but nothing listed for the child, found again 1910 PA census Elmer 30 yrs old born IA parents born IA wife Mary E. 29 yrs old 2 kids Donald L. not sure of age and Rexford L. 3 yrs old. not sure if this is who your looking for but if I come across more I'll let you know

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Surnames: Guthrie, Rorabauch, Martin, Tyler, Scott, Cooper, Hoover, Allen, Williams, Flinn Classification: Query Message Board URL: http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec/msg/an/IBh.2ACIB/1104.2.1 Message Board Post: My husband's grandfather was Elmer Walter Guthrie and was born in Ames, Oklahoma. His family is mostly out of Indiana but I do know that a branch went to Iowa. I don't know anything about them though. Sorry I couldn't be more help.

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Classification: Query Message Board URL: http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec/msg/rw/IBh.2ACIB/1104.2 Message Board Post: Hi, I'm trying to find out information on my husband's family. I know his great great grandfather was born in Iowa as were that man's parents. I don't know where or their names, just that his great great grandfather's name was Elmer F. Guthrie born approximately 1880. Do you have any other information? klschwartz@earthlink.net

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Classification: Query Message Board URL: http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec/msg/rw/IBh.2ACIB/1117.2 Message Board Post: Hi, I'm trying to find out information on my husband's family. I know his great great grandfather was born in Iowa as were that man's parents. I don't know where or their names, just that his great great grandfather's name was Elmer F. Guthrie born approximately 1880. Do you have any other information? klschwartz@earthlink.net

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Classification: Query Message Board URL: http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec/msg/rw/IBh.2ACIB/1012.2 Message Board Post: Hi, I'm trying to find out information on my husband's family. I know his great great grandfather was born in Iowa as were that man's parents. I don't know where or their names, just that his great great grandfather's name was Elmer F. Guthrie born approximately 1880. Do you have any other information? klschwartz@earthlink.net

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Classification: Query Message Board URL: http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec/msg/an/IBh.2ACIB/154.275 Message Board Post: Hi, I'm trying to get in touch w/you regarding Elmer F. Guthrie who married Mayme Wright. Please email me: klschwartz@earthlink.net. Keira Guthrie

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Classification: Query Message Board URL: http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec/msg/an/IBh.2ACIB/1271 Message Board Post: I have pictures from the following cemeteries for the following surnames if anyone would like to see the list to see if they want a specific picture. Ozora Missionary Baptist Church, New Salem Methodist Church, Thyatira Presbyterian Church and Beaverdam Baptist Church. Adams, Anglin, Atha, Barnett, Bennett, Boss, Boyd, Bray, Brown, Burns, Carlan, Carlin, Chasteen, Clark, Craig, Davidson, Dalton, Davis, Dobbs, Eubanks, Evans, Felton, Glenn, Gordon, Gunnels, Guthrie, Harber, Hardinger, Hardy, Harrison, Helms, Hill, Jones, Livsey, Lord, Love, Manus, Marlow, Mauldin, Middlebrooks, Mixon, Mize, Morris, Neal, Oliver, Parks, Pope, Potts, Powell, Purcell, Reynolds, Roberts, Rolader, Safran, Sartin, Seay, Self, Sells, Sharp, Shuler, Smith, Snipes, Steele, Stephens, Stone, Storey, Stoval, Sullivan, Sullivan-Payne, Thomas, Trammell, Ward, Wheeler, Wheelis, Whitefield, Wilson, Wood and Worsham. Please put this subject heading in the subject line of your e-mail and send it to me at ladylyn51@aol.com Linda Winn-Lyon

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Classification: Query Message Board URL: http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec/msg/an/IBh.2ACIB/703.2.1.1.1.1 Message Board Post: Dovey Blaylock was the 2nd wife of Thomas Madison Guthrie. His first wife was Elizabeth Proctor (1810-1863). They had 12 children. My ggrandfather was their 12th child. His daughter Sarah Elizabeth (Sallie) Guthrie was my grandmother. The Guthries moved to Lamar and Red River counties, TX. TMG is buried in Red Oak Cemetery in Lamar Co. Thank you for your response.