This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: jantrevor Surnames: griffin, alabama, georgia, cherokee, creek, saponi Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/surnames.griffin/6658.1.1.1.1.2.2.2.1/mb.ashx Message Board Post: Thanks Nancy. I'm just a regular researcher but appreciate the kind words. I focused my research primarily on my line and a few others which appeared related because they had "Owen's" as first names among them. But overall, I have not noticed a lot of "Charles" Griffins in the lines I researched. So when I saw your Charles I wondered if perhaps he might be connected on down the line to Charles Griffin, the school master at Ft. Christiana...He is rumored to have been Saponi Indian. Other documents say he was white. Perhaps he was both, white and adopted into the tribe. Various other documents at least strongly infer he lived among the Saponi. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haliwa-Saponi Your Charles was born much later, but perhaps a connection as a grandchild, great-nephew. It's a longshot but might be something to research to see if you find anything that matches up. Lots of dead ends to research but eventually something shows up. (Grinnan-VMHB,V.3, 1890; 189-190). [January 1743] In essay titled "The Last Indians in Orange County, VA", author cites document which states "the following Sapony Indians were arrested for hog stealing, burning the woods, etc, and brought to Orange County Court (held near Somerville Ford on the Rapidan River); their names were Alex Machartion, John Bowling, Maniassa, Capt Tom, Isaac Harry, Blind Tom., Foolish Jack, Charles Griffin, John Collins and Little Jack." Describes trial, guns taken, ordered to leave county, "several white gentlemen sympathizing with them, went security on their bail bonds, and the poor fellows soon settled up their affairs and left the county. Tradition however says that one remained and long lived on the "Gwin Mountains below Rapidan Station". At Orange County Court in May 1740 William Bohannon made oath that "about 26 Saponey Indians, who inhabited Col. Spotwood's land in Fox's Neck (near Germanna on north side of Rapidan River) do mischief.." Grinnan says this Saponey band lived near & on the Meherrin River, Southern VA. Gov. Spotswood made efforts to "educate & Christianize them. They had schools and school-master and a minister, and were considered civilized Indians." The 1800 Census finds only 3 Charles Griffins: Obviously these are not your Charles, but if by chance your Charles was named after his father, these might be people to research for more clues. Charles Griffin Newberry District, South Carolina 6 4 3 8 Charles Griffin Fayetteville, Anson, North Carolina 1 3 Charles Griffin Springhill, Fayette, Pennsylvania 4 2 And... Have you ruled out the Charles Griffin shown in the 1880 Census with wife Ellen? 1880 United States Federal Census about Charles Griffin Name: Charles Griffin Home in 1880: Cotton Hill, Barbour, Alabama Age: 71 Estimated birth year: abt 1809 Birthplace: Georgia This Charles states his parents were born in GA. If that is the case, that would put them at 1780-1790 in GA which is very early...would have to have been some of the first settlers into the area/after Treaty of Augusta in 1773. Just to clarify the notion of what early GA was like and who was there that early (my kin folks were included in this lot) From: Creek country: the Creek Indians and their world By Robbie Franklyn Ethridge http://books.google.com/books?id=_8MX4d1xJmoC&pg=PA218&dq=georgia eye gouge&hl=en&ei=R-hMTMubMo36swPWuqhI&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CEEQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=georgia eye gouge&f=false "The settlers of the Georgia backcountry are lazier and more given to drunkenness and lawlessness than backcountry people in any other state of the union. Tales of southern frontier lawlessness were legendary. The men were reportedly so mean that they would even kill or rob their neighbors, and the deeper into the hinterlands, the meaner the men are. The Georgia "Crackers" held by far the worst reputation for lawlessness. Many travelors witnessed the imfamous gouging fights among Georgia frontier men wherein a seemingly goodwill wrestling match would turn into a scene of horror as the two participants went straight for each other's eyes. The idea was to gouge out an eye and many frontier men had only one eye as a result of losing such a match. In fact Milfort insisted that the name "crackers" was a distortion of the word "gougers" the name he claimed was usually associated with Georgia pioneers. Others related the name came from the cracking of whips as frontier men dr! ove their wagons. Milfort who had a low opinion of America in general described Georgians as the meanest men that ever lived. According to Milfort, they cut their hair short and painted their faces like Indians when maurading. They were ungovernable, never submitted to authority, and were "truly frightful". When Milfort told his urban friends that he was going to live among the Creeks, they warned that the Creeks might roast and eat him. Milfort later reflected that he would have preferred that to staying among the frontier Georgians." Obviously, there is alot of prejudice in this early reference. But, it's clear from multiple other texts that they were a rough lot (hence the reason the later Circuit preachers were so intent on converting them). Some of the negative connotations may also be because so many of the Georgians had intermarried with the Creek and Cherokee and later sided with the Indians over land disputes. The last reference to them dressing/painting themselves similarly reflects this. Initially, these early white traders and trappers were "useful" to eastern businessmen, but later they were lumped in with all Indians as "savages" and I think you can see this in Milfort's reflections. By making Georgians into "savages, mean people," etc. it was easier for others to turn their backs on these mixed peoples during Indian Removal. Other potential leads: There is a Charles Griffin born in GA in the 1850 census with a wife Mary and passing down the name Charles to a son. As to what to do next.... Generally, I searched under all my ancestors names and their children as far back as I could go with as many spellings as were possible, if I could not find them, I tried following their early neighbors. Often these families moved together in groups. Then I started researching the history of each of the early communities/counties in each state as the land was opened up for Griffins going down all the traditional routes (census, will, deeds, church records etc). After that, I started looking in records for people other than white and in early textbooks and essays. Don't give up. You'll find something eventually. In our case, it was my Great Aunt, the finding of our family bible and some pics of ancestors who looked like they could be Indian, combined with hers and my research and small clues from a whole host of other Griffin researchers that helped me track down my line a bit. So, it was a joint effort. I definately could not have done it on my own! As to DNA testing, it is very helpful and worthwhile. The more Griffin's that are tested...the more we will know how we fit together. Anyway, more to ponder and happy searching! Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.