On Tue, 2 Jan 2007 16:30:36 -0500, "Alice L McVearry" <alcnwondr@earthlink.net> wrote: > Private James J. McVary, Service Number 9017, 2nd Batallion, King's Own >Scottish Borderers, died on 17 Dec 1914. He is memorialized in Panel 22 of >the Menin Gate, Ypres. > >I have 4 questions: > >(1) Would the timing of the death of Private James McVary put him in the >First battle of Ypres? >(2) If not, would someone be so kind as to tell me where this unit was on >17 Dec 1914 and what battle they were engaged in? In case you didn't pick it up from Malcolm's post, note that he appears to have died on 7th December, not the 17th. The 2nd Battalion was in the front line from 5th to 22nd Dec, and here is an extract from Ray Westlake's "British Battalions in France & Belgium 1914", which is based on the Battalion's War Diary: ----------- December Relieved by 2nd Duke of Wellington's (1st Dec). Located at Wulverghem, Neuve Eglise, Dranoutre, Lindenhoek and St Janes Cappel. The War Diary of 1st Bedfordshire Regiment records that they were relieved by 2nd King's Own Scottish Borderers (5th Dec) and 3 officers and 200 men had to remain in the trenches for 2 days as the Borderers were too weak to hold the line. War Diary records attack on enemy (14th-16th Dec) and for a 13-day period in the line more than 230 casualties. Battalion was relieved in trenches north of the Wulverghem-Messines road by 2nd Duke of Wellington's (22nd Dec) and at St Jans Cappel (25th) according to War Diary - "did not fraternize with the enemy". Was at Neuve Eglise on New Year's Eve." ----------- The regimental history of the KOSB would give you a better understanding of what the battalion was doing at the time, the main one being "The KOSB in the Great War" by Captain Stair Gillon, 468 pages. As it has been reprinted by the Naval & Military Press at http://www.naval-military-press.com/catalogue/military-books/7434.htm it is easy to get and not too expensive. >(3) If one is memorialized in the Menin Gate, does that mean he is among >the thousands or tens of thousands who were buried where they fell and have >no specific gravesite? The Menin Gate is a Memorial to the Missing, which covers two main possibilities. First, the grave is missing, as might happen when a soldier was properly buried at the time, with a grave marker, but over the weeks and months that followed, the marker was destroyed and the location of his grave was lost, and his body was never found. Secondly, the soldier went missing, as might happen when he went into battle with the rest of his unit, but when it came to call the roll afterwards, he was found to be missing, and his body was never found. If, after investigation, it was deemed that he has been killed, then his name would be placed on the relevant Memorial to the Missing. Sometimes the date of such an assumed death can be fairly accurately determined (eg an officer may have seen him at 6am, but not at 6pm), whilst at other times the date of death has been much harder to pinpoint. See, for example, the following CWGC entry for Pte Andrews, who is also commemorated on the Menin Gate Memorial, which gives a two-week window for his death: ------------------ http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_details.aspx?casualty=910108 Name: ANDREWS, ARTHUR JAMES Initials: A J Nationality: United Kingdom Rank: Private Regiment/Service: Grenadier Guards Unit Text: 1st Bn. Date of Death: between 26/10/1914 and 08/11/1914 Service No: 13422 Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead Grave/Memorial Reference: Addenda Panel 57. Memorial: YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL ------------------ In other cases, mainly for Egyptian and Indian personnel, the date of death is much more vague, eg "between 04/08/1914 and 31/08/1921. Forrest -- Forrest Anderson, Edinburgh, Scotland. E-mail: forrest@military-researcher.com Website: www.military-researcher.com Forrestdale Research - Military Genealogical Researcher

> 2nd KOSB were not involved in any action on the 7th December 1914. > The 1st Battle of Ypres was from 19th October 1914 to 22md November 1914. > He may have been a casualty of 1st Ypres who died of wounds and was buried, > grave consequently lost later in the war. Soldiers died in the Great War states that he was killed in action which would rule out that theory. Perhaps killed by shell-fire? The war diary might be useful. Regards Mike Shingleton

Bless you, Forrest Anderson. I am driven to know as much about James' death as I can discover. You have helped a great deal. I will need a good map and maybe the use of Google Earth, but now I know approximately where James' batallion was engaged on 7 Dec 1914. I will look into Captain Stair Gillon's book. There is so much to learn! I did see the correction in the death date. Thank you for calling it to my attention. It is a significant detail and is now correctly recorded. Your website is a place where I must spend more time. I have acquired James' medal record and have no idea what I'm looking at, except I can now see the K in A. Your website will be invaluable in decifering it's coded messages, at least concerning the medals. Already I have a little understanding of the Victory Medal, the British, and the 14 Star which James was awarded. I hope it will all unravel in time. One or two more searing questions, if I might. Is it possible that his wife was not notified positively of his death until 1923? 1923 is the year his wife Annie remarried. Furthermore on James' record under the heading Action Taken the following characters appear: B W & V M Rel?[or ReP] (992 KR 1923) 8362 / Adl K in A, and a Qualifying Date of 24-10-14, which I interpret to mean 14 Oct 1924. Would his medals been delivered to his wife? The CWGC does not seem to know he was married, or even how old he was. I apologize for all the questions. I may never get answers, but I surely will not get them if I do not ask. Thank you for your indulgence. -- Alice > [Original Message] > From: Forrest Anderson <listmail@military-researcher.com> > To: <GREATWAR-L@rootsweb.com> > Date: 1/3/2007 8:24:54 PM > Subject: Re: [GREATWAR] Kings's Own Scottish Borderers, 2nd Bn, 17 Dec 1914 > > On Tue, 2 Jan 2007 16:30:36 -0500, "Alice L McVearry" > <alcnwondr@earthlink.net> wrote: > > > Private James J. McVary, Service Number 9017, 2nd Batallion, King's Own > >Scottish Borderers, died on 17 Dec 1914. He is memorialized in Panel 22 of > >the Menin Gate, Ypres. > > > >I have 4 questions: > > > >(1) Would the timing of the death of Private James McVary put him in the > >First battle of Ypres? > >(2) If not, would someone be so kind as to tell me where this unit was on > >17 Dec 1914 and what battle they were engaged in? > > In case you didn't pick it up from Malcolm's post, note that he > appears to have died on 7th December, not the 17th. > > The 2nd Battalion was in the front line from 5th to 22nd Dec, and here > is an extract from Ray Westlake's "British Battalions in France & > Belgium 1914", which is based on the Battalion's War Diary: > > ----------- > December > Relieved by 2nd Duke of Wellington's (1st Dec). Located at Wulverghem, > Neuve Eglise, Dranoutre, Lindenhoek and St Janes Cappel. The War Diary > of 1st Bedfordshire Regiment records that they were relieved by 2nd > King's Own Scottish Borderers (5th Dec) and 3 officers and 200 men had > to remain in the trenches for 2 days as the Borderers were too weak to > hold the line. War Diary records attack on enemy (14th-16th Dec) and > for a 13-day period in the line more than 230 casualties. Battalion > was relieved in trenches north of the Wulverghem-Messines road by 2nd > Duke of Wellington's (22nd Dec) and at St Jans Cappel (25th) according > to War Diary - "did not fraternize with the enemy". Was at Neuve > Eglise on New Year's Eve." > ----------- > > The regimental history of the KOSB would give you a better > understanding of what the battalion was doing at the time, the main > one being "The KOSB in the Great War" by Captain Stair Gillon, 468 > pages. As it has been reprinted by the Naval & Military Press at > http://www.naval-military-press.com/catalogue/military-books/7434.htm > it is easy to get and not too expensive. > > >(3) If one is memorialized in the Menin Gate, does that mean he is among > >the thousands or tens of thousands who were buried where they fell and have > >no specific gravesite? > > The Menin Gate is a Memorial to the Missing, which covers two main > possibilities. First, the grave is missing, as might happen when a > soldier was properly buried at the time, with a grave marker, but over > the weeks and months that followed, the marker was destroyed and the > location of his grave was lost, and his body was never found. > Secondly, the soldier went missing, as might happen when he went into > battle with the rest of his unit, but when it came to call the roll > afterwards, he was found to be missing, and his body was never found. > If, after investigation, it was deemed that he has been killed, then > his name would be placed on the relevant Memorial to the Missing. > > Sometimes the date of such an assumed death can be fairly accurately > determined (eg an officer may have seen him at 6am, but not at 6pm), > whilst at other times the date of death has been much harder to > pinpoint. See, for example, the following CWGC entry for Pte Andrews, > who is also commemorated on the Menin Gate Memorial, which gives a > two-week window for his death: > > ------------------ > http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_details.aspx?casualty=910108 > > Name: ANDREWS, ARTHUR JAMES > Initials: A J > Nationality: United Kingdom > Rank: Private > Regiment/Service: Grenadier Guards > Unit Text: 1st Bn. > Date of Death: between 26/10/1914 and 08/11/1914 > Service No: 13422 > Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead > Grave/Memorial Reference: Addenda Panel 57. > Memorial: YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL > ------------------ > > In other cases, mainly for Egyptian and Indian personnel, the date of > death is much more vague, eg "between 04/08/1914 and 31/08/1921. > > Forrest > > -- > Forrest Anderson, Edinburgh, Scotland. > E-mail: forrest@military-researcher.com > Website: www.military-researcher.com > Forrestdale Research - Military Genealogical Researcher

Surname McVARY First name James Service Number 9017 Date Death 07/12/1914 Decoration Place of birth Calderbank Lanark Other 2nd Bn. SNWM roll THE KING'S OWN SCOTTISH BORDERERS Rank Pte Theatre of death F.& F. Name: McVARY, JAMES Initials: J Nationality: United Kingdom Rank: Private Regiment/Service: King's Own Scottish Borderers Unit Text: 2nd Bn. Date of Death: 07/12/1914 Service No: 9017 Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead Grave/Memorial Reference: Panel 22. Memorial: YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL http://www.cwgc.org/search/cemetery_details.aspx?cemetery=91800&mode=1 2nd KOSB were not involved in any action on the 7th December 1914. The 1st Battle of Ypres was from 19th October 1914 to 22md November 1914. He may have been a casualty of 1st Ypres who died of wounds and was buried, grave consequently lost later in the war. See above about the Menin Gate. People place small crosses beside the panel on which the deceased mans name is inscribed. There are 54,344 names inscribed on the various Regimental panels on the walls of the Gate. Aye Malcolm -----Original Message----- Private James J. McVary, Service Number 9017, 2nd Batallion, King's Own Scottish Borderers, died on 17 Dec 1914. He is memorialized in Panel 22 of the Menin Gate, Ypres. I have 4 questions: (1) Would the timing of the death of Private James McVary put him in the First battle of Ypres? (2) If not, would someone be so kind as to tell me where this unit was on 17 Dec 1914 and what battle they were engaged in? (3) If one is memorialized in the Menin Gate, does that mean he is among the thousands or tens of thousands who were buried where they fell and have no specific gravesite? (4) If (3) is the case, how is it one shows remembrance to a specific name on a this wall at Ypres? Many thanks. -- Alice ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GREATWAR-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thanks to everyone who sent me information on No 61 CCS, much appreciated. Howard.

Private James J. McVary, Service Number 9017, 2nd Batallion, King's Own Scottish Borderers, died on 17 Dec 1914. He is memorialized in Panel 22 of the Menin Gate, Ypres. I have 4 questions: (1) Would the timing of the death of Private James McVary put him in the First battle of Ypres? (2) If not, would someone be so kind as to tell me where this unit was on 17 Dec 1914 and what battle they were engaged in? (3) If one is memorialized in the Menin Gate, does that mean he is among the thousands or tens of thousands who were buried where they fell and have no specific gravesite? (4) If (3) is the case, how is it one shows remembrance to a specific name on a this wall at Ypres? Many thanks. -- Alice

http://library.wellcome.ac.uk/assets/wtl039732.pdf Imperial War Museum ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cathy Edge" <Cathy@edgefamily.freeserve.co.uk> To: <greatwar@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, January 01, 2007 10:54 AM Subject: Re: [GREATWAR] No 61 Casualty Clearing Station | Howard | I don't know if the following helps. http://www.1914-1918.net/ccs.htm | | Regards Cathy | | -----Original Message----- | From: greatwar-bounces@rootsweb.com | [mailto:greatwar-bounces@rootsweb.com]On Behalf Of Howard Booth | Sent: 01 January 2007 15:44 | To: Great War | Subject: [GREATWAR] No 61 Casualty Clearing Station | | | I have a photo of a relative who was in the Queen Alexandra's Nursing Corp | stood with a group of soldiers outside a building with a notice that says No | 61 Casualty Clearing Station. | | Is it possible to find out where this was. | | Howard. | | ------------------------------- | To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to | GREATWAR-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes | in the subject and the body of the message | | | | | ------------------------------- | To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GREATWAR-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message |

http://www.qaranc.co.uk/ you can also go to google and put in Queen Alexandra Nursing Corp and get more links ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cathy Edge" <Cathy@edgefamily.freeserve.co.uk> To: <greatwar@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, January 01, 2007 10:54 AM Subject: Re: [GREATWAR] No 61 Casualty Clearing Station | Howard | I don't know if the following helps. http://www.1914-1918.net/ccs.htm | | Regards Cathy | | -----Original Message----- | From: greatwar-bounces@rootsweb.com | [mailto:greatwar-bounces@rootsweb.com]On Behalf Of Howard Booth | Sent: 01 January 2007 15:44 | To: Great War | Subject: [GREATWAR] No 61 Casualty Clearing Station | | | I have a photo of a relative who was in the Queen Alexandra's Nursing Corp | stood with a group of soldiers outside a building with a notice that says No | 61 Casualty Clearing Station. | | Is it possible to find out where this was. | | Howard. | | ------------------------------- | To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to | GREATWAR-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes | in the subject and the body of the message | | | | | ------------------------------- | To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GREATWAR-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message |

Howard Please look at the photos on my website below, as you may find a likeness to some of the soldiers in your photo, alternatively send me a copy of the photo and I will try to identify the soldiers if any are RFA. I shall be attending a Royal Artillery Association meeting on the 11 Jan 2007 and will then be able to look at an Album of a C.C.S. of which I or the unit have no info, other then it was given by an ex 240 Bde members family. If your relations photo turns up within the album I will be well pleased. Regards Derek J. Driscoll Researching 1st South Midland Bde/240 Bde RFA [TF] 1908-1919 A website for the Gloucestershire Volunteer Artillery is at http://www.bristolgunners.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/index.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Howard Booth" <howard@booths44.freeserve.co.uk> To: "Great War" <GREATWAR-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, January 01, 2007 3:43 PM Subject: [GREATWAR] No 61 Casualty Clearing Station >I have a photo of a relative who was in the Queen Alexandra's Nursing Corp >stood with a group of soldiers outside a building with a notice that says >No 61 Casualty Clearing Station. > > Is it possible to find out where this was. > > Howard. > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GREATWAR-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Howard As you've seen, No.61 CCS in a lot of places, so without a date to the photo, perhaps not possible to say. But as a member of Queen Alexandra's Imperial Military Nursing Service, your relative will probably have a file at The National Archives, which hopefully contains form AFB103, and that will list all her postings, with dates, and enable you to identify the location. And just to add to Peter's information, No.61 was formed in July 1916, so prior to that didn't exist, and my notes show that this unit was actually divided into two divisions. It opened at Resmenil Farm, but in August 1916, while one part stayed there, becoming the area's Infectious Hospital, the other half moved to Warloy on [or about] 1st August 1916, taking over the site just vacated by 92 Field Ambulance, and stayed there until the move the following spring to Puchevillers. Regards --------- Sue Sue Light [Lancing, West Sussex] On 01/01/07, Howard Booth <howard@booths44.freeserve.co.uk> wrote: > > I have a photo of a relative who was in the Queen Alexandra's Nursing Corp > stood with a group of soldiers outside a building with a notice that says No > 61 Casualty Clearing Station. > > Is it possible to find out where this was. > > Howard. > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GREATWAR-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

I have a letter from my grandfather from the Military Detention Barracks Derby dated 1919. I have been trying to get some information on why he was there. He is proving difficult to trace as he was born Edward Cockin but was known as Alf Turner - he only changed his name formally in 1950 to Alf Turner. I decided to try the burnt records for both names. I have found him under "alf Turner". I know it is him as the regiment number matches his. it is very intriguiging and mentions forfeiture of his medals. Unfortunately it is very hard to decipher the writing! it seems to say Forfieture under AA ? sentenced to 2 years .....?(indecipherable word). this throws up a few questions. how could he have registered in the royal field artillery under an assumed name? i have his birth certificate and his statutory declaration of 1950, when he says he was born Edward Cockin but was "always known" as Alf Turner. surely he would have to have produced a birth cert? could he have managed to get in by using someone else's cert? why would he do this? perhaps his sentence is something to do with using the wrong name? what sort of misdemenour would result in a 2 year sentence? surely if it had been committed during 1918 he would not have been sent home to a prison? i have a copy of the PDF burnt record file if anyone wanted me to send it to them for help in deciphering the information on it! it's all very interesting but frustrating! any ideas or information would be really appreciated. many thanks. Debbie Cameron debbie.cameron@alandeb.org.uk http://www.alandeb.org.uk

Hello Howard, >From 'Location of Hospitals and Casualty Clearing Stations, British Expeditionary Force 1914-1918' 61 CCS [also] known as 'South Midland CCS' Recmenil Farm 10 July 1916 - 4 September 1916 Proyart 4 September 1916 - 6 September 1916 Puchevillers 5 March 1917 - 13 May 1917 Edgehill, 14 May 1917 - 10 June 1917 Proven 11 June 1917 - 13 June 1918 Lozinghem 16 June 1917 - 13 January 1918 Ham 14 January 1918 - 28 March 1918 Namps 29 March 1918 - 21 April 1918 Vignacourt 22 April 1918 - 18 August 1918 Vecquemont 19 August 1918 - 3 September 1918 Maricourt 7 September 1918 - 1 October 1918 Bohain, 23 October 1918 - 16 December 1918 Gembloux 23 December 1918 - 6 January 1919 Treux 20 January 1919 - 30 April 1919 To offset [what may be] your next question, sorry I do not know where they were pre 10 July 1916, or where they were between 7 September 1916 and 4 March 1917. Place name spellings are as they are shown and spelt in the 'Location of Hospitals and Casualty Clearing Stations, British Expeditionary Force 1914-1918' Hope this may be of some help regards Peter Fellowes ----- Original Message ----- From: "Howard Booth" <howard@booths44.freeserve.co.uk> To: "Great War" <GREATWAR-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, January 01, 2007 3:43 PM Subject: [GREATWAR] No 61 Casualty Clearing Station >I have a photo of a relative who was in the Queen Alexandra's Nursing Corp >stood with a group of soldiers outside a building with a notice that says >No 61 Casualty Clearing Station. > > Is it possible to find out where this was. > > Howard. > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GREATWAR-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Howard I don't know if the following helps. http://www.1914-1918.net/ccs.htm Regards Cathy -----Original Message----- From: greatwar-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:greatwar-bounces@rootsweb.com]On Behalf Of Howard Booth Sent: 01 January 2007 15:44 To: Great War Subject: [GREATWAR] No 61 Casualty Clearing Station I have a photo of a relative who was in the Queen Alexandra's Nursing Corp stood with a group of soldiers outside a building with a notice that says No 61 Casualty Clearing Station. Is it possible to find out where this was. Howard. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GREATWAR-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I have a photo of a relative who was in the Queen Alexandra's Nursing Corp stood with a group of soldiers outside a building with a notice that says No 61 Casualty Clearing Station. Is it possible to find out where this was. Howard.

Hello everyone, found some sites that might help researchers. Apologies if you receive them more than once as I shall be posting them to all of the groups to which I subscribe. UK National Inventory Of War Memorials _www.ukniwm.org.uk_ (http://www.ukniwm.org.uk/) Details of U-boat activty, sinkings, crews etc _www.uboat.net_ (http://www.uboat.net/) Hope that they prove useful to someone. Regards, Mick

can you scan a photo to my personal address ----- Original Message ----- From: "Janice Lodge" <pete.lodge@xtra.co.nz> To: <GREATWAR@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 4:24 AM Subject: [GREATWAR] Help to determine uniform please | Hello, new to this list.... I have a photo of an ancestor in uniform, written on front says "1914" on back says "went to Scotland, this (photo) taken London" | | Would appreciate help with determining the uniform, thanks | | Janice | | ------------------------------- | To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GREATWAR-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message |

Sounds like the sort of map issued to British field officers in WWI. Suggest you post your query on The Western Front Association - UK website at _www.westernfrontassociation.com_ (http://www.westernfrontassociation.com) . Len Shurtleff

Recently I have been given two folded maps. They have been sent to me from England by a friend who in turn had been given them by a elderly lady a while ago, whose son had "used them during WW1." The first map is "Belgium. Ostend - Sheet 1. Scale 1:100000" Information on the map states " Photo-etched at the Ordnance Survey Office, Southampton. 1911" " Drawn and printed at the War Office. 1911" The map is printed on linen reinforced paper in colour and carries the legend "For official use only." The map references are in English, scales are given, one 1 inch to 1.58 miles and 1 centimetre to 1 kilometre. The second map, larger than the first, also printed on linen reinforced paper in colour, has the title France, Bethune with the additional information, "B" Series (Combined Sheet 36 SE - 36 SW/ 36NE - 36 NW) Second Edition. The map is in French but associated instructions and wordings are in English. We are told that the map has the "Revised System of Squaring." and Revised Contours. The scale is 1: 40000 and is shown in metres although the contour intervals are given in 1000 yards intervals. The initials "O.S.O. 1915" are printed below the bottom RH corner On the reverse side, the back page has translations of features from French to English with a hand penciled identification number , presumably written by a user thus. SM. 5S7 On the reverse side front page with the general description of the map, there is an index showing the available adjoining sheets. Can anyone provide information that would identify these maps? In addition, who would have had access to this type of map and for what purpose? As the second, later map states that it uses a revised system of squaring, it would imply a previous system. Did this revised system of squaring remain in effect, or was this too revised at a later date? Thank you. John. Wisconsin, USA

Hello, new to this list.... I have a photo of an ancestor in uniform, written on front says "1914" on back says "went to Scotland, this (photo) taken London" Would appreciate help with determining the uniform, thanks Janice

Listers, a query was posted earlier this year: Does anyone have a copy of the National Archives microfilm "Index to Naturalizations of World War I Soldiers, 1918"? Would there be anyone who has this available that could do a lookup for me, also? I am looking for background on my grandfather [birthplace, parents' names]: Sgt. Philip Conpenelis U.S.Army, 106th Regmt. Field Artillery, Battery E thanks for any help, Linda