Greetings to all, I am sorry I might have to appear slightly sceptical, not perhaps that the gentleman in question did in fact carry a shovel as well as his rifle when going over the top but rather the ability for the said shovel to protect against bullets. There is no doubt that the shovel may well have provided acceptable protection from 'shrapnel' as indeed did the helmets mentioned by David, which no doubt saved very many lives. I served for 25 years in the Army and at occasional times carried out small arms and explosive demonstrations at both RMAS and School of Infantry Warminster. Of the many demonstrations we provided one was for journalists intending to travel to war areas. During these demonstrations [among other things] we showed and demonstrated the penetration power and effect of small arms fire on various items. Much fun was had when we invited these people to select a hiding place or place of safety if they came under fire. After some selected hiding behind a car we showed the result of one 7.62mm round being fired at the said car at a range of 200 meters, it went in one side and out the other and would have killed those hiding behind. A burst of ten rounds 7.62mm fired from a GPMG at 100 meters would penetrate a single layer brick wall. The point of my long winded story is that even during WW1 I might expect a shovel not to stop the penetration of a rifle or machine gun bullet. Shrapnel perhaps yes, a direct fired bullet I am doubtful. Best Regards Peter Fellowes ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Parker" <parker3250@rogers.com> To: <greatwar@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 2:36 PM Subject: Re: [GREATWAR] Trench Warfare > No doubt true. > At the start of the Great War none of the armies had steel helmets, > the Germans had their leather Pickelhaube but the rest had just a cloth > cap. > However because of the high number of casualties from Shrapnel shells some > sort of head protection became necessary. The French brought out the > first, a steel cap liner, in the summer of 1915, followed by the Brits in > Sep 1915. It did not become standard issue until 1916, by then greatly > improved.. Until then there were kept in the trenches for use by whatever > unit was in action. Initially the American troops used the British model, > but by 1918 were manufacturing their own. They were intended for > protection > against shrapnel and not against bullets > There were rumours that certain Brit generals were opposed to the issue > of helmets as they believed that they man the men look stupid and would > make > the men go "soft". > > David > > ---- Original Message ----- > From: "Peter Metcalfe" <Peter-redfern@runbox.com> > To: <greatwar@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 8:04 AM > Subject: [GREATWAR] Trench Warfare > > >>I was told a story yesterday by a gentleman who worked with a WW1 veteran >>in the 1950's who was close to retirement then. >> >> The old vet told him that when he went over the top he had his rifle in >> one hand and his shovel in the other which he used to shield his head >> from >> the bullets and saved his life a number of times. >> >> Has anyone heard of this before as I certainly haven't. It makes a lot of >> sense. >> >> Peter >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> GREATWAR-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GREATWAR-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I was told a story yesterday by a gentleman who worked with a WW1 veteran in the 1950's who was close to retirement then. The old vet told him that when he went over the top he had his rifle in one hand and his shovel in the other which he used to shield his head from the bullets and saved his life a number of times. Has anyone heard of this before as I certainly haven't. It makes a lot of sense. Peter

I was not aware of the McAdam Shovel, so thank for the reference. If any one would be interested, a google search for " McAdam Shovel" will lead to a picture of one. Another of Sir Sam's not too bright projects which can stand alongside the Ross Rifle. David ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Gower" <peter.gower@sympatico.ca> To: <greatwar@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 11:02 AM Subject: Re: [GREATWAR] Trench Warfare > But remember Canadian Sam Hughes experiment with the McAdam shovel. There > were many misconceptions about what warfare would be like in 1914, even > among the "experts". > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GREATWAR-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Greetings, War promotes safety devices, a shovel over the head makes wonderful sense to me, everything fired into the sky or the fall-out from explosions has to come down. I understand that WW 11 pilots used a seat plate and often a back plate before they were part of the equipment, certainly bomb aimers lying flat, used a steel plate to cover the 'essential bits'. Gun shields on ships was a thin plate but the illusion of protection was there. Up to date, workers on building sites in England would not be seen dead in safety helmets until they became law. Having done so, many a head has been protected from 'knocks and bangs'. Peter Peter Gower wrote: > But remember Canadian Sam Hughes experiment with the McAdam shovel. There > were many misconceptions about what warfare would be like in 1914, even > among the "experts". > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GREATWAR-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > >

But remember Canadian Sam Hughes experiment with the McAdam shovel. There were many misconceptions about what warfare would be like in 1914, even among the "experts".

Stan You're welcome. It depends on how you define native I suppose. The information on CWGC would have been provided by NOK. I suppose a wife might use it to mean he lived in Bradford. Good luck in your research Mike Shingleton -----Original Message----- From: Mike Shingleton <shinglma_64@btopenworld.com> Sent Subject: [GREATWAR] Soldiers Died C.D. Pte. Rogers B.E. > Stan > Soldier's Died shows > Rank: Pte > Surname: RODGERS > Christian Names: Bert Ernest > Number: 23683 > Regiment: Duke of Wellington's (West Riding Regiment) > Battalion: 2nd Battalion > Born: Thurlby Lincs > Enlisted: Bradford > Residence: Bradford, Yorks > Died Date: 09/05/1917 > Died How: Died of Wounds > France & Flanders > Hope this helps > Mike Shingleton > -----Original Message----- > From: Stan Langley <stanllangley@ic24.net> > Sent > Subject: [GREATWAR] Soldiers Died C.D. Pte. Rogers B.E. >> May I (again) ask for a little help in solving a minor >> origins problem for a friend? >> According to CWGC site 23683 Pte. Bert Ernest R0GERS - West >> Riding Regt. died 9 May 1917 - the 'addition details' on his entry state >> that he was a native of Bradford, Yorks - this is doubtful as his birth was >> registered in Lincolnshire. It is suspected he may have been working in the >> Bradford area and joined the colours there - I wondered if the Soldiers Died >> CD might confirm that it was so. >> Stan L. Langley, West Norfolk, U.K. >> Principal Interests: JICKLING; LANGLEY; RICHMOND; WAD(DE)LOW. >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. >> It has removed 122 spam emails to date. >> Paying users do not have this message in their emails. >> Try SPAMfighter for free now! >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> GREATWAR-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GREATWAR-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Mike - Exactly what I hoped - a great help and much appreciated. Stan L. Langley, West Norfolk, U.K. Principal Interests: JICKLING; LANGLEY; RICHMOND; WAD(DE)LOW. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Shingleton" <shinglma_64@btopenworld.com> To: "Stan Langley" <stanllangley@ic24.net> Cc: <greatwar@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 11:41 PM Subject: Re: [GREATWAR] Soldiers Died C.D. Pte. Rogers B.E. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed 126 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Try SPAMfighter for free now!

No doubt true. At the start of the Great War none of the armies had steel helmets, the Germans had their leather Pickelhaube but the rest had just a cloth cap. However because of the high number of casualties from Shrapnel shells some sort of head protection became necessary. The French brought out the first, a steel cap liner, in the summer of 1915, followed by the Brits in Sep 1915. It did not become standard issue until 1916, by then greatly improved.. Until then there were kept in the trenches for use by whatever unit was in action. Initially the American troops used the British model, but by 1918 were manufacturing their own. They were intended for protection against shrapnel and not against bullets There were rumours that certain Brit generals were opposed to the issue of helmets as they believed that they man the men look stupid and would make the men go "soft". David ---- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Metcalfe" <Peter-redfern@runbox.com> To: <greatwar@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 8:04 AM Subject: [GREATWAR] Trench Warfare >I was told a story yesterday by a gentleman who worked with a WW1 veteran >in the 1950's who was close to retirement then. > > The old vet told him that when he went over the top he had his rifle in > one hand and his shovel in the other which he used to shield his head from > the bullets and saved his life a number of times. > > Has anyone heard of this before as I certainly haven't. It makes a lot of > sense. > > Peter > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GREATWAR-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 08:48:44 EST, Bellbo99@aol.com wrote: >My Grandfathers uncle,James William Brooks, was a CSM in the 11th Rifle >Brigade.He didn't die during the war - he died at home in 1928. He did however >receive the DCM.I don't know when or for what reason as the London Gazette is >not letting me access the site after the initial results page.Putting in a >search for J Brooks comes up with one result on 24 July 1917. >Where else would I be able to find his entry for the DCM,and where could I >find more information on both the 11th Rifle Brigade and CSM's. I'm afraid that's not the entry you are wanting, The initial announcement of the award appeared on page 37 of the London Gazette for 1 Jan 1919: http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/archiveViewFrameSetup.asp?webtype=0&IssueNumber=31092&pageNumber=36&SearchFor=&PageDuplicate=n&selMedalType=&selHonourType= --------------- AWARDED THE DISTINGUISHED CONDUCT MEDAL. S/1487 C./S./M. J. Brooks, llth Bn., Rif. Bde. (Brightlingsea). --------------- The citation appeared quite a bit later that year, and is on page 11102 of the London Gazette of 3 Sep 1919 at <http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/archiveViewFrameSetup.asp?IssueNumber=31534&pageNumber=12&SearchFor=&PageDuplicate=n&selMedalType=&selHonourType=> -------------- S/1487 C./S./M. J. Brooks, llth Bn., Rif. Bde. (Brightlingsea). For gallantry and devotion to duty, especially during the period from 25th February to 16th September, 1918. Outside Nesle, when he was the only senior N.C.O. left with his company, he continually rallied his men under heavy hostile artillery and machine-gun fire. Later (near Domart), when the battalion was driven back, he stayed to the last, and by his gallantry and resource was of invaluable assistance in keeping the remnants of the battalion together and in establishing them in a well-organised position in rear. His behaviour throughout was admirable. -------------- Now that you have his Regimental Number, you can search for and download his Medal Index Card at http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/browse-refine.asp?CatID=10&searchType=browserefine&pagenumber=1&query=*&queryType=1 There will be two hits - the one in WO 372/23 will be the card for his DCM, telling you the edition of the London Gazette to look at, and the one in WO 372/3 will give you his campaign medals and perhaps other details. See http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/medals.asp for an explanation of the database and of the Medal Index Cards. Forrest -- Forrest Anderson, Edinburgh, Scotland. E-mail: forrest@military-researcher.com Website: www.military-researcher.com Forrestdale Research - Military Genealogical Researcher

Stan Soldier's Died shows Rank: Pte Surname: RODGERS Christian Names: Bert Ernest Number: 23683 Regiment: Duke of Wellington's (West Riding Regiment) Battalion: 2nd Battalion Born: Thurlby Lincs Enlisted: Bradford Residence: Bradford, Yorks Died Date: 09/05/1917 Died How: Died of Wounds France & Flanders Hope this helps Mike Shingleton -----Original Message----- From: Stan Langley <stanllangley@ic24.net> Sent Subject: [GREATWAR] Soldiers Died C.D. Pte. Rogers B.E. > May I (again) ask for a little help in solving a minor > origins problem for a friend? > According to CWGC site 23683 Pte. Bert Ernest R0GERS - West > Riding Regt. died 9 May 1917 - the 'addition details' on his entry state > that he was a native of Bradford, Yorks - this is doubtful as his birth was > registered in Lincolnshire. It is suspected he may have been working in the > Bradford area and joined the colours there - I wondered if the Soldiers Died > CD might confirm that it was so. > Stan L. Langley, West Norfolk, U.K. > Principal Interests: JICKLING; LANGLEY; RICHMOND; WAD(DE)LOW. > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. > It has removed 122 spam emails to date. > Paying users do not have this message in their emails. > Try SPAMfighter for free now! > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GREATWAR-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hello Lou The 11th Rifle Brigade was in the 59th Brigade of the 20th (Light) Division, what information do you require regarding the 11th RB? I have the divisional history from January 1916 to August 1917, and a copy of the divisional War Diary for June 1916 when the 20th Division was supporting the Canadians during the Battle of Mount Sorrel. Regards John Milner ----- Original Message ----- From: <Bellbo99@aol.com> To: <GREATWAR@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 1:48 PM Subject: [GREATWAR] New to list - DCM recipient. > Hello to all on the list, > > I am new to this site and am after some advice please. > > My Grandfathers uncle,James William Brooks, was a CSM in the 11th Rifle > Brigade.He didn't die during the war - he died at home in 1928. He did > however > receive the DCM.I don't know when or for what reason as the London > Gazette is > not letting me access the site after the initial results page.Putting in > a > search for J Brooks comes up with one result on 24 July 1917. > > Where else would I be able to find his entry for the DCM,and where could I > find more information on both the 11th Rifle Brigade and CSM's. > > Thanks very much, > > Lou > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GREATWAR-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >

May I (again) ask for a little help in solving a minor origins problem for a friend? According to CWGC site 23683 Pte. Bert Ernest R0GERS - West Riding Regt. died 9 May 1917 - the 'addition details' on his entry state that he was a native of Bradford, Yorks - this is doubtful as his birth was registered in Lincolnshire. It is suspected he may have been working in the Bradford area and joined the colours there - I wondered if the Soldiers Died CD might confirm that it was so. Stan L. Langley, West Norfolk, U.K. Principal Interests: JICKLING; LANGLEY; RICHMOND; WAD(DE)LOW. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed 122 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Try SPAMfighter for free now!

hi Stan, Nothing is listed in De Ruvigny's Roll of honour 1914 - 1918 for the above regards carolynn

Thanks. Good luck! Peter

Hello to all on the list, I am new to this site and am after some advice please. My Grandfathers uncle,James William Brooks, was a CSM in the 11th Rifle Brigade.He didn't die during the war - he died at home in 1928. He did however receive the DCM.I don't know when or for what reason as the London Gazette is not letting me access the site after the initial results page.Putting in a search for J Brooks comes up with one result on 24 July 1917. Where else would I be able to find his entry for the DCM,and where could I find more information on both the 11th Rifle Brigade and CSM's. Thanks very much, Lou

Well done, Peter. It was great reading how you "cracked the case". I'm waiting for my own "moment" in my family research. Paul. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Gower" <peter.gower@sympatico.ca> To: <greatwar@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 11:48 AM Subject: [GREATWAR] Charles Huntback > Many thanks for the help on and off line. I believe I have solved a mystery. I will tell the story in some detail to encourage others who come to seemingly dead ends. > > I am researching the Great War dead of Kingston, Ontario, and its surrounding county. Ernest Huntbach appears on the County memorial, and he is 51513 Private Ernest Huntbach, PPCLI, who died of wounds on 26 May 1915. (He claims no military experience on his Attestation Papers, so how he got into the Princes Pats, I don't yet know). His death was not reported in the papers, though this was not unusual. > > On August 14th 1916, the death of Charles H Huntbach was announced. The report claimed he was 26 years old, had enlisted with a Western Canadian battalion, was a native of England but had been living in Canada for some years, and had married an English girl six weeks before his death. There were two other brothers, George and William. > > A search of the Ottawa archives, and of the full listing of men in the 1st Canadian Contingent, produced nothing. I suspected that there had been a name change, Huntbach being too Germanic, but that got me nowhere. > > I should have known that the newspaper was wrong. The PPCLI is not a Western battalion, so maybe Charles was not in a western battalion either, nor in a Canadian one? So, search CWGC without nationality, and there he is. All the facts fit. The 1890 birth in Market Drayton makes him 26 at death, and I can now read that brother Ernest was born in Cheswardine, south east of Market Drayton (in 1893). > > I also find Ernest Huntback's name on the War Memorial at Hanley Castle (south of Worcester). I wonder what that connection is? I have downloaded the photo from Flikr. > That was quite a day's work. Good luck to all others who think they are at a dead end! > > Peter > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GREATWAR-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Any suggestions please as to how to research the name of the recipient of the SWB based on the medal number? many thanks Pam Gardner

Many thanks for the help on and off line. I believe I have solved a mystery. I will tell the story in some detail to encourage others who come to seemingly dead ends. I am researching the Great War dead of Kingston, Ontario, and its surrounding county. Ernest Huntbach appears on the County memorial, and he is 51513 Private Ernest Huntbach, PPCLI, who died of wounds on 26 May 1915. (He claims no military experience on his Attestation Papers, so how he got into the Princes Pats, I don't yet know). His death was not reported in the papers, though this was not unusual. On August 14th 1916, the death of Charles H Huntbach was announced. The report claimed he was 26 years old, had enlisted with a Western Canadian battalion, was a native of England but had been living in Canada for some years, and had married an English girl six weeks before his death. There were two other brothers, George and William. A search of the Ottawa archives, and of the full listing of men in the 1st Canadian Contingent, produced nothing. I suspected that there had been a name change, Huntbach being too Germanic, but that got me nowhere. I should have known that the newspaper was wrong. The PPCLI is not a Western battalion, so maybe Charles was not in a western battalion either, nor in a Canadian one? So, search CWGC without nationality, and there he is. All the facts fit. The 1890 birth in Market Drayton makes him 26 at death, and I can now read that brother Ernest was born in Cheswardine, south east of Market Drayton (in 1893). I also find Ernest Huntback's name on the War Memorial at Hanley Castle (south of Worcester). I wonder what that connection is? I have downloaded the photo from Flikr. That was quite a day's work. Good luck to all others who think they are at a dead end! Peter

On Sat, 10 Feb 2007 14:05:40 -0500, "Peter Gower" <peter.gower@sympatico.ca> wrote: >Now, does anybody have any information, further to what is on the CWGC website, on 9193 Private Charles Huntback, 17th Bn., Manchester Regiment. If he is the man I am looking for, he had been in Canada (Battersea, Ontario) for 'some few years' before 1914, but came from England. he was married in mid-May 1916. Soldiers Died in the Great War says: Number 9193 Rank Private Name Charles HUNTBACK Bn 17th Battalion Regt Manchester Regiment. How Died Killed in Action When Died 01/07/1916 Where Died France & Flanders. Born Market Drayton, Shropshire Enlisted Manchester Resided Blackley, Manchester. Given the Manchester connection, I looked at the index to the 14-volume National Roll of the Great War, but he is not shown. However the index does have one other similar name - G H Huntbach, who is apparently mentioned in the Salford Volume. Salford is near Manchester, so there might be a connection. Huntback/Huntbach is a very unusual name, and there's only one other soldier listed in SDIGW: Number: 305150 Rank L/Cpl Name Arthur HUNTBACK, Battalion 1/8th Battalion, Regt Sherwood Foresters (Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire Regiment) How Died Killed in Action When Died 28/07/1917 Where Died France & Flanders. Born Nottingham Enlisted Carlton, Notts This man is listed as Arthur Albert *Huntbach* by the CWGC, the entry being at http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_details.aspx?casualty=53478 with Nottingham next of kin. Given the Canadian connection, I looked at the Canadian expeditionary Force database at http://www.collectionscanada.ca/archivianet/02010602_e.html for both spellings, and found only one hit - 51213 Ernest Huntbach, born 12 Oct 1893. See http://data2.archives.ca/cef/gpc007/408940a.gif and http://data2.archives.ca/cef/gpc007/408940b.gif He is of particular interest because he was also born in Shropshire (like your Charles), and his next of kin is William Huntbach, of Battersea, Ontario. He was a member of the Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry when he died in 1915 and is listed by the CWGC at http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_details.aspx?casualty=282964 If you are looking for a Battersea Huntback who was born in England and killed in WW1, then maybe Ernest Huntbach of the PPCLI is the chap you want? Forrest -- Forrest Anderson, Edinburgh, Scotland. E-mail: forrest@military-researcher.com Website: www.military-researcher.com Forrestdale Research - Military Genealogical Researcher

On Sat, 10 Feb 2007 11:52:41 -0500, "Peter Gower" <peter.gower@sympatico.ca> wrote: >Can anybody tell me about this ship, or send me in the right direction to find more. I know about Q ships in general, but need some specifics on this one. Thanks. Peter Adding to David's information, the Q1 was also known as Moeraki, and it is under this name that her loss appears in The Times on 6 Dec with 94 survivors and 8 lost. She was one of the largest Q Ships, and was a converted Anchor Line collier, built in 1901 and hired on 18 Apr 1916. http://www.norwayheritage.com/p_ship.asp?sh=perug says: =========== S/S Perugia, Anchor Line Burden 4,348 gross Built 1901 at Glasgow by D. & W. Henderson Ltd. Shipowner or operator Anchor Line Dimensions 375.1ft x 47.2ft x 31ft Year Remarks 1901 May 16, launched 1901 Aug. 12, maiden voyage Genoa - Leghorn - Naples - New York 1916 February, requisitioned by the British Admiralty 1916 Dec. 3, sunk by enemy submarine in Gulf of Genoa =========== The site also has a list of her transatlantic voyages at http://www.norwayheritage.com/p_ships.asp?Ship=p&Submit=Submit Forrest -- Forrest Anderson, Edinburgh, Scotland. E-mail: forrest@military-researcher.com Website: www.military-researcher.com Forrestdale Research - Military Genealogical Researcher