I think that whoever sent the message was being somewhat facetious. Much in the vein of a peacenik. Bill, Canada. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Tulloch-Marshall" <prosearch@btinternet.com> To: <greatwar@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 4:29 AM Subject: Re: [GREATWAR] Military Cross winners WW1 > ".................. ----- Original Message ----- > Who wins a Military Cross? Do they have a competition? > If a Military Cross is awarded posthumously who is the winner? " > > ........................................................................................................................................ > I'm a bit worried about this message, which I assume to relate to the > British Military Cross. With some minor (and mainly early issue) > exceptions the MC is a prestigious gallantry award and was never the > subject of any kind of "competition" or posthumous lottery. > > A good illustration and brief description of the MC is on the MoD website > at > > http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceFor/Veterans/Medals/MilitaryCrossmc.htm > > You will find conflicting references to (the possibility of) posthumous > awards on the www, including Wikipedia (does anybody still believe a word > in that "database" ????) - but officially the first posthumous MC was > awarded to Captain G Hamilton of the Green Howards (SAS) in the London > Gazette of 8/10/1982. During WW1 a potential recipient had to be alive at > the time of the recommendation. In many cases during WW1, awards of the MC > announced in the LG are accompanied by the term "since died/killed in > action" in brackets after the name, but these are not posthumous awards - > the key word being "since". > regards > - > Tom Tulloch-Marshall > WW1 Military Research > website - http://www.btinternet.com/~prosearch/index.html > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GREATWAR-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Who wins a Military Cross? Do they have a competition? If a Military Cross is awarded posthumously who is the winner? Jim -----Original Message----- From: greatwar-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:greatwar-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Derrick Parsons Sent: 21 September 2007 09:13 To: 'Derrick Parsons'; GREATWAR@rootsweb.com Subject: [GREATWAR] Military Cross winners WW1 Dear list, Over the past few months I have posted various queries about those listed on the WW1 memorial in Stoke Climsland. Many thanks to all those who have responded. I'm glad to say that I've traced almost all of the men and will be putting the results of my researches onto our Parish website soon. However, I still have one mystery. There is a H.Hartnell or A.M.C.Hartnell listed (we've got 2 memorials - one in the church and the other outside). I can't find any trace of a H.Hartnell and am wondering if it should be A.Hartnell MC. A long shot, I know, but does anyone know where I can get a list of those gaining the MC during WW1? Derrick Parsons ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GREATWAR-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I would like to know if a Canadian in the RFC would receive the War Medal if he was only in training in the USA? Thanks. Bill White

At the time of WW1, the RHA and RFA tended to be referred to as one unit and the RGA was separate. As you will have seen from some of the men you list, they are shown as members of Royal Horse and Field Artillery. There was always some "confusion," and prior to the war some RFA units were temporarily brought under the aegis of the RGA. Both RHA and RFA were basically field gun brigades, the former being possibly more mobile and certainly considering themselves the elite. Originally they were intended to back up the cavalry, but of course there was not a great deal of cavalry action in WW1! They often had 13 pdr guns whilst the RFA started the war with 15 pdrs, upgrading in 1916 to 18 pdrs. The RFA Territorial Force also changed the composition of their brigades in 1916. Over the course of the year they changed first from three batteries of four guns to four batteries each of six guns. These were named A, B, C and D. D Battery was then turned into a howitzer battery, equipped with 4.5" howitzers. In the case of the Worcestershire brigade with which I am associated, three batteries (A to C) stayed put, whilst the new D Battery was exchanged for one of the Warwickshire heavy brigade batteries. A similar exchange was effected with the Gloucestershire and Birmingham brigades, at the end of which the Warwickshire heavy brigade had also been converted into a standard brigade of three field gun and one howitzer brigade. Field guns, if you were not aware, had a low trajectory and fired directly upon a target. Howitzers lobbed their shells into the air so that they would fall on the (possibly out of sight) target more vertically having possibly skirted over the tops of objects such as hills, towns, woods etc. The Royal Garrison Artillery operated the heavy artillery, howitzers of 6" calibre and above, (9.2", 12", 15") as well as heavy guns mounted on railway vehicles. Generally a Siege Battery operated the largest weapons. I am not sure where the division in terms of calibre came between the RGA and the Siege Battery RGA units, because I know some Siege Batteries had guns as small as 6". Perhaps another lister will be able to clarify that for you. Surviving war diaries, organised generally by brigade, are held in WO95 at the National Archives. You have to visit in person to see them. My experience is that some are very good, some are very light on information, and some are a mixture. They will, however, regularly give you map references to show precisely where the units were located. If you are looking for names of soldiers, particularly other ranks, you will generally be disappointed. In the case of my grandfather, he had been in the artillery a couple of times before the war. In late 1914 he just went along to the local depot and rejoined. My understanding is that most men did just this, chose which they wished to join, infantry or artillery locally, and turned up. Later when conscription came in it is more likely they were told where to go and which unit to join. Both gunners and drivers seemed to be used quite flexibly. Bear in mind that you had twenty four guns in a brigade and the total strength was just under 800 officers and men. Each battery had 85 Gunners and 70 Drivers whilst only ten gunners were actually on each gun when in action. They were drawn by six horses with three drivers. Certainly in the RFA most of the drivers would have been horsemen either on the guns or on general service wagons. Motor vehicles were unusual at this time (the RGA had priority on them for the "big guns"! I have not particularly looked at ages of officers and do not have massive records on the subject. However, of the nine 2/Lts for whom I have ages in my database, four were 20, three were 21 and two were 24 on joining. Bear in mind that officer cadet forces were a major source of young officers. What is perhaps more surprising to me is that I have a sergeant who was 21 in 1914. He must have been good! For the men you list: 106th Bde was a New Army brigade in 24th Division which was put together around Shoreham, Sussex in September 1914. 53rd Brigade was a New Army brigade in 9th Division which again was formed in 1914. It was a howitzer brigade and was broken up in September 1916, almost certainly to make up the mixed field gun/howitzer brigades referred to above. At the same time, 50, 51 and 52 became Army Field Artillery brigades and I suspect they were also involved in this transfer. I believe 9th Div was Scottish but cannot find the notes. There is no mention of the two siege batteries in the History of the Royal Regiment of Atillery Western Front but both 53rd and 106th appear. If you want to go further into the history of the artillery have a look at http://www.1914-1918.net/cra.htm, it is very helpful. regards Dennis Corbett Historian 2nd South Midland (241st) Brigade, Royal Field Artillery. Website http://www.denniscorbett.com on 22/9/07 11:50 AM, Derrick Parsons at derrick.parsons@btinternet.com wrote: > > > Dear list, > > I wonder if anyone can shed some light on artillery matters. I am > interested in the following: > > * Driver W R Conibeare, 18966, 'D'Battery, 106th Brigade RFA (died > 04/06/17: F & F). > * Gunner J Jordan, 107471, 238th Siege Battery, RGA (died 16/09/17: F > & F). > * Saddler E Rowland, 966507, 53rd Brigade, RHA, RFA (died 28/10/18: > Gaza) > * 2nd Lt A J Wills, 182nd Siege Battery, RGA (died 18/10/18: F & F) > > The questions I have highlight my ignorance of artillery matters! > > * What is the difference between RHA, RFA and RGA? > * What does a 'D' Battery signify? > * Presumably a siege battery fires the really heavy stuff? > * From the letters, can their locations be identified or anything > about their history be deduced? > * How does one get into these units? At the time of enlistment or > just posted as needed? > * What would a gunner actually do? > * What would a driver actually do? Drive horses or a vehicle? > * 2nd Lt A J Wills, at 23, seems a bit young to have this rank to me. > Or is this usual? > > Lots of questions from me (again and again!) but, with the lists > forbearance, I hope that someone can provide me with some answers. > > Many thanks, as ever, > > Derrick Parsons > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GREATWAR-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message

Dear list, I wonder if anyone can shed some light on artillery matters. I am interested in the following: * Driver W R Conibeare, 18966, 'D'Battery, 106th Brigade RFA (died 04/06/17: F & F). * Gunner J Jordan, 107471, 238th Siege Battery, RGA (died 16/09/17: F & F). * Saddler E Rowland, 966507, 53rd Brigade, RHA, RFA (died 28/10/18: Gaza) * 2nd Lt A J Wills, 182nd Siege Battery, RGA (died 18/10/18: F & F) The questions I have highlight my ignorance of artillery matters! * What is the difference between RHA, RFA and RGA? * What does a 'D' Battery signify? * Presumably a siege battery fires the really heavy stuff? * From the letters, can their locations be identified or anything about their history be deduced? * How does one get into these units? At the time of enlistment or just posted as needed? * What would a gunner actually do? * What would a driver actually do? Drive horses or a vehicle? * 2nd Lt A J Wills, at 23, seems a bit young to have this rank to me. Or is this usual? Lots of questions from me (again and again!) but, with the lists forbearance, I hope that someone can provide me with some answers. Many thanks, as ever, Derrick Parsons

Dennis has given you a comprehensive answer. As for officers' ages, there certainly were teenage officers, often with experience in the school cadet forces. The recent book on underage Boy Soldiers (somebody will have the proper name) has examples. Peter

Derrick - Hartnell isn't a common surname - only two in the Officers Died (SDITGW) database, Cuthbert and Edward Bush, - neither with an MC or any other decoration listed. The "closest" in SDITGW (till you look at a map !) is a Herbert Henry born Stoke Gifford in Gloucestershire. Kia 29/3/18, 51836 2/7th West Yorks, formerly 25503 Royal Berks. He seems to be a bit of a mystery in the CWGC database and you may have to contact them in order to finally eliminate him. Any other clues ref your Hartnell ? regards - Tom Tulloch-Marshall WW1 Military Research website - http://www.btinternet.com/~prosearch/index.html

Is it for the US or UK or every place they came from? delilah ----- Original Message ----- From: "Derrick Parsons" <derrick.parsons@btinternet.com> To: "'Derrick Parsons'" <derrick.parsons@btinternet.com>; <GREATWAR@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, September 21, 2007 4:13 AM Subject: [GREATWAR] Military Cross winners WW1 | | | Dear list, | | Over the past few months I have posted various queries about those listed on | the WW1 memorial in Stoke Climsland. Many thanks to all those who have | responded. I'm glad to say that I've traced almost all of the men and will | be putting the results of my researches onto our Parish website soon. | | However, I still have one mystery. There is a H.Hartnell or A.M.C.Hartnell | listed (we've got 2 memorials - one in the church and the other outside). I | can't find any trace of a H.Hartnell and am wondering if it should be | A.Hartnell MC. A long shot, I know, but does anyone know where I can get a | list of those gaining the MC during WW1? | | Derrick Parsons | | ------------------------------- | To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GREATWAR-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message |

Dear list, Over the past few months I have posted various queries about those listed on the WW1 memorial in Stoke Climsland. Many thanks to all those who have responded. I'm glad to say that I've traced almost all of the men and will be putting the results of my researches onto our Parish website soon. However, I still have one mystery. There is a H.Hartnell or A.M.C.Hartnell listed (we've got 2 memorials - one in the church and the other outside). I can't find any trace of a H.Hartnell and am wondering if it should be A.Hartnell MC. A long shot, I know, but does anyone know where I can get a list of those gaining the MC during WW1? Derrick Parsons

Derrick This from the CWGC: Name: NEALE, JOHN LESLIE Initials: J L Nationality: United Kingdom Rank: Private Regiment/Service: Devonshire Regiment Unit Text: 1st/5th Bn. Age: 20 Date of Death: 12/12/1918 Service No: 69778 Additional information: Son of Mr. J. H. and Mrs. E. Neale, of Crockett, Callington, Cornwall. Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead Grave/Memorial Reference: S. IV. D. 6. Cemetery: ST. SEVER CEMETERY EXTENSION, ROUEN Regards Aled Aled L Jones -----Original Message----- From: greatwar-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:greatwar-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Derrick Parsons Sent: 20 September 2007 10:24 To: GREATWAR@rootsweb.com Subject: [GREATWAR] PTE J L Neale: 69778: Devonshire Regiment: Died 1918 Dear list, Has anyone got any information that might help me trace this chap? He's proving rather elusive. His medal roll exists and he was eligible for the Victory medal. More than that, I know not. Derrick ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GREATWAR-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Dear list, Has anyone got any information that might help me trace this chap? He's proving rather elusive. His medal roll exists and he was eligible for the Victory medal. More than that, I know not. Derrick

Many commemorative books and even medals were produced by various publishers, veterans organizations, states and municipalities after WWI. Some states even offered Doughboys bonus payments even though the Federal Government delayed promised bonus payments. I cannot identify the group which printed and gave out the books you mention. Have you tried searching the web for that organization? Have you considered buying one of the books offered by Barnes & Noble used sellers? LGS ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

I would like to know who and why they were given. delilah ----- Original Message ----- From: <LShurtleff@aol.com> To: <greatwar@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2007 6:00 PM Subject: Re: [GREATWAR] Great Events of the Great War | Several copies are available used from _www.bn.com_ (http://www.bn.com) . | | Len Shurtleff | | | | ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com | | ------------------------------- | To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GREATWAR-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message |

Several copies are available used from _www.bn.com_ (http://www.bn.com) . Len Shurtleff ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

Has anyone ever heard of a set of books, about 6 books in each set, called "The Great Events of The Great War" - a guy came to my house yesterday and we got to talking about war and he went and got this set of books that he had bought - on the front inside pages is written: "This copy of The Great Events of The Great War is registered in the name of AUGUSTA F. SHADE to whom it was presented by E.S. TEMPLETON in memory of her son who made the Supreme Sacrifice for Humanity" another page is: "This certifies that The Great Events of The Great War is issued strickly as a Registered Edition and that each copy issued is to be registered in the name of its owner at headquarters and certified in Volumn 1 in this fore - signed Robert G. Woodside, Commander-in-Chief, then another signature OFFICIAL: ??? G. ELTON, Adjunt General" A page with a certificate top whom this book was for says "To the people of the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA this is to Certify that the War Board of the National Alumni Association has investigated and established that PRIVATE CHAUNCEY F. SCHADE rendered patriotic services to the National Cause during: THE GREAT WAR Entered U.S. Army April 4, 1918 as Private, Company I, 319th Infantry. Served Overseas May 30, 1918 to November 1, 1918. Killed in action as Private, Infantry (Automatic Rifles) November 1, 1918. Participated in: Transport attacked by submarines May 30, 1918 while in reserve one mile off shore of France: in British Sector from Calais to Arras up to July 4; in reserve until July 16; two turns in front line trenches at St. Mihiel. Over the Top in Meuse-Argonne operations on Meuse River September 26; Over the Top at La Morte Homme; Drive at Madelina Farm defense and Over the Top at Nanatillois October 25; Killed while repulsing attack between St. Georges and Immecourt November 1, 1918." This has an official seal from "The National Alumni" (can't read the inside part) and it is signed by what looks like J???? F. Andrews, Registrar and JW Davison, President War Board, N.A.A. ---------------------------- I found that he was from Erie, PA and is buried there, the Augusta is his mother, I got his WW1 draft registration form off Ancestry, he was 25, born July 22, 1892, signed June 5, 1917. I pulled up a link to those books - but I have never seen anything like this - what is your opinion? delilah evans

Forty-Eight A History of U. S. Army Base Hospital No. 48 http://www.homeoint.org/books2/ww1/48organiz.htm

If anyone is researching this name, let me know, he was from PA> Died in WW1. delilah

Good Evening, I'm trying to put some flesh upon the bones of my Grandfathers War Service. All that I have in factual black and white is the following extract taken from the list of RWF Officers: Allard H.G (Harold Graham) Lt Sgt HG Allard serving with the Army Cyclist Corps was commissioned Temp 2/Lt (6/3/16) to the 17th Battalion RWF. joining the Batt in France where he saw action. He was promoted Temp Lt (19/9/17 and later relinquished his commission (22/1/18) due to ill health contracted on active service, retaining the rank of Lt. I would dearly like to know where he actually saw action, what he did in the Cyclist Corps, and where also. I know that he enlisted at Chirk in North Wales, The family story also has it that he went into convalescence at Kinmel Park Camp Rhyl. Is anyone able to expand on this information at all, or can they advise as to where I may be able to find out his ins and outs of Military Service. Graham Allard

You ask, "... why he left rural Cornwall and ended up in Birmingham." Cherchez la femme, peut-etre. ;-) Derrick Parsons wrote: > Dear listers, > > I was wondering if anyone has a copy of the above book. I am after an > electronic copy of a photograph of B Company Platoon VIII. John Adams > Cornish is the only corporal in this platoon and I've only got a very poor > photocopy of the photograph to work from. A better quality copy would > enable me to enlarge it and get more details of him. > > I also understand that the book lists the workplaces from which the men were > drawn. I'd dearly love to know which company John worked for as it's a > mystery as to why he left rural Cornwall and ended up in Birmingham. > > Any help would be gratefully received. > > Derrick Parsons > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GREATWAR-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >

Dear listers, I was wondering if anyone has a copy of the above book. I am after an electronic copy of a photograph of B Company Platoon VIII. John Adams Cornish is the only corporal in this platoon and I've only got a very poor photocopy of the photograph to work from. A better quality copy would enable me to enlarge it and get more details of him. I also understand that the book lists the workplaces from which the men were drawn. I'd dearly love to know which company John worked for as it's a mystery as to why he left rural Cornwall and ended up in Birmingham. Any help would be gratefully received. Derrick Parsons