The substituting of vowel sounds may be a result of the great vowel shift that occurred among many European languages in the late middle ages. Isolated areas not affected by the shift may be pronouncing vowels as they were historically. This may be the reason for the difference between vowels in Scots and those in English. Forty years ago, I noticed that the old timers - then in their upper 80s and 90s -- in West Virginia pronounced vowel sounds quite differently than in other parts of America. Later I found out that many of these sounds were congruent with the original pronunciation of English prior to the great vowel shift. Jim On Tue, Nov 25, 2014 at 9:23 AM, Norman Thornton via <goons@rootsweb.com> wrote: > I am interested in how we speak as I am involved in adult education and > would make some points to help those looking for name variants, at least in > Scotland > > Never discount replacing one vowel sound with the other four or y I am > surprised how often my learners mishear or miswrite vowel sounds. thus there > are Thorntins out there > > In the Scottish records there are wide variations. I drew up a table which > cross checked the two syllables that make up my name and all their variants > then checked for each combination of the two. In some cases you might only > get one or two entries in the Old Parish Records, and for some none. But you > had covered all the bases, and who is to say the one off is not the one you > are looking for. > > I sometimes try and think of unconnected words that might be mistaken for > the surname - in this case mangy would be an option. One amusing one I > spotted was Wardrop and Wardrobe > > Never forget the Ye Olde Curiosity Shoppe - there are plenty of Thornetons > and Thorntonnes of that ilk out there. In Scotland these die out as we move > into the 19thC. but some survive to a later date. By now we are all modern > up to date Thorntons, or so I think. > > Interestingly there are exotics out there. I am looking at the > Fortons/Forntons in the Old Parish Records they appear as a brief flash in > the pan then either left or morphed into? I rather think conformed to the > modern spelling of Thornton. > > Multiple spellings of surnames for the same family appear through time. In > the case of Christian names in my family there is a distinctive > Patrick/Peter swap for the same person repeated in some generations. > > I have never been able to utilise the advanced search in Scotland's People > to reflect all these possibilities but use the free starter search to look > at options. > > Reassuringly there must be some underlying principles that hold true over > the centuries - in my experience few of the more bizarre options actually > appear. > > Norman Thornton > > I am building on my existing variants before rebuilding my spread sheet of > Thorntons in Scotland pre 1855. > > Norman Thornton > > Working in Aberdeen in the eighties I found the Aberdonian accent > incomprehensible for the first few weeks and they thought I was from London > when I am actually from Edinburgh. Local accents can distort names in > different ways. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: mingay via > Sent: Monday, November 24, 2014 11:10 PM > To: GOONS Forum > Subject: [G] re :- Puzzled? > > Hi All, > I am overwhelmed by the number of replies. The many suggestions > as to the way forward has taken my breath away and will need much time to > mull over which is the best or more suitable to me and therefore the whole > 'puzzle' will be put on the back-burner for now. > > It is so interesting that the signitures on the applications for USA > naturalisation of three brothers, James Patrick & Lawerence are all quite > clearly MINGY. This corresponds with the transcription of there baptisms in > Ireland, their father being Edward MINGY but there are very few other > recorded MINGY, which is 'where I came in' as they say. > > A question which is raised from all of this is ' How do we learn to write > our name', in general our parents showed us. But what happens when as was > years ago the parents were illiterate, the answer they relied on the parish > Priest/Vicar or whatever to write the surname as they thought fit. This is > then made more complicated when the 'accent' of the 'recorder' is not the > same as the 'locals' and further more in the case of Ireland where there are > other languages being use, ie Gaelic and/or Latin, makes even further > difficulties in ascertaining the correct spelling of a surname, but you all > new that anyway. > > I will leave the data in my database at the point when the MINGY/MINGEY > emmigrated to USA and any thereafter and not try and trace it back to > Ireland, making a note for my 'heir apparent' to sort out this puzzle. > > Once again MANY THANKS to all replies. > > > Regards Tony > Anthony John MINGAY, now in NZ once of Kent & Suffolk, England but still > researching Worldwide the surname MINGAY & its variants. > http://www.mingayhistory.co.uk. > > _____________________________________________ > > RootsWeb lists - surnames, regions, software, etc > http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GOONS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in > the subject and the body of the message > > _____________________________________________ > > RootsWeb lists - surnames, regions, software, etc http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GOONS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message -- Jim James M. Owston, EdD Owston One-Name Study #5647 owston@one-name.org http://www.one-name.org/cgi-bin/search.cgi?find=5647

I wonder whether the "great vowel shift" can explain the variant spellings in my research name, Bradburn. Is there any readily accessible article on this shift? I have been analysing English parish registers from Cheshire, Shropshire and Staffordshire and the spellings seem to fall into two groups. The first is Bradburn, Bradburne and the second group uses an "o" in place of the "u" to give Bradbourne, Bradborn etc. Most of these spellings were done by priests or churchwardens, for illiterate parishioners, based on what they heard. The original medieval spelling of the name from 1280 and before was Bradeburne and I am beginning to wonder whether this was pronounced in those days as we would today pronounce Bradborn, which is more or less the way a modern German would pronounce Bradburn. Since the name came from Old English, which I imagine the Saxons spoke (forgive me please, academics!), the "o" pronunciation would seem to have been a natural way of pronouncing Bradeburne. This doesn't easily explain why most of the Bradburns alive today are spelled Bradburn and that the Bradborn/ Bradbourne spelling is now quite rare. The original place name however is now spelled Bradbourne (Derbyshire, England). I, surname Bradburn, have just had a Y-DNA 37 zero-genealogical-distance match with a man called Bradbourne which may support the idea that pronunciation came into the differentiation in the spellings. Does anyone else have any thoughts that their variant spellings may be a clue that their names were pronounced differently in earlier times - I am not talking here about regional variations in pronunciation but temporal ones. Regards, John Bradburn 4965. -----Original Message----- From: Jim Owston [mailto:owstonfamily@gmail.com] Sent: 25 November 2014 3:34 PM To: Norman Thornton; Goons Mailing List Subject: Re: [G] re :- Puzzled? How do you pronounce your name The substituting of vowel sounds may be a result of the great vowel shift that occurred among many European languages in the late middle ages. Isolated areas not affected by the shift may be pronouncing vowels as they were historically. This may be the reason for the difference between vowels in Scots and those in English. Forty years ago, I noticed that the old timers - then in their upper 80s and 90s -- in West Virginia pronounced vowel sounds quite differently than in other parts of America. Later I found out that many of these sounds were congruent with the original pronunciation of English prior to the great vowel shift. Jim On Tue, Nov 25, 2014 at 9:23 AM, Norman Thornton via <goons@rootsweb.com> wrote: > I am interested in how we speak as I am involved in adult education > and would make some points to help those looking for name variants, at > least in Scotland > > Never discount replacing one vowel sound with the other four or y I am > surprised how often my learners mishear or miswrite vowel sounds. thus > there are Thorntins out there > > In the Scottish records there are wide variations. I drew up a table > which cross checked the two syllables that make up my name and all > their variants then checked for each combination of the two. In some > cases you might only get one or two entries in the Old Parish Records, > and for some none. But you had covered all the bases, and who is to > say the one off is not the one you are looking for. > > I sometimes try and think of unconnected words that might be mistaken > for the surname - in this case mangy would be an option. One amusing > one I spotted was Wardrop and Wardrobe > > Never forget the Ye Olde Curiosity Shoppe - there are plenty of > Thornetons and Thorntonnes of that ilk out there. In Scotland these > die out as we move into the 19thC. but some survive to a later date. > By now we are all modern up to date Thorntons, or so I think. > > Interestingly there are exotics out there. I am looking at the > Fortons/Forntons in the Old Parish Records they appear as a brief > flash in the pan then either left or morphed into? I rather think > conformed to the modern spelling of Thornton. > > Multiple spellings of surnames for the same family appear through > time. In the case of Christian names in my family there is a > distinctive Patrick/Peter swap for the same person repeated in some generations. > > I have never been able to utilise the advanced search in Scotland's > People to reflect all these possibilities but use the free starter > search to look at options. > > Reassuringly there must be some underlying principles that hold true > over the centuries - in my experience few of the more bizarre options > actually appear. > > Norman Thornton > > I am building on my existing variants before rebuilding my spread > sheet of Thorntons in Scotland pre 1855. > > Norman Thornton > > Working in Aberdeen in the eighties I found the Aberdonian accent > incomprehensible for the first few weeks and they thought I was from > London when I am actually from Edinburgh. Local accents can distort > names in different ways. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: mingay via > Sent: Monday, November 24, 2014 11:10 PM > To: GOONS Forum > Subject: [G] re :- Puzzled? > > Hi All, > I am overwhelmed by the number of replies. The many > suggestions as to the way forward has taken my breath away and will > need much time to mull over which is the best or more suitable to me > and therefore the whole 'puzzle' will be put on the back-burner for now. > > It is so interesting that the signitures on the applications for USA > naturalisation of three brothers, James Patrick & Lawerence are all > quite clearly MINGY. This corresponds with the transcription of there > baptisms in Ireland, their father being Edward MINGY but there are > very few other recorded MINGY, which is 'where I came in' as they say. > > A question which is raised from all of this is ' How do we learn to > write our name', in general our parents showed us. But what happens > when as was years ago the parents were illiterate, the answer they > relied on the parish Priest/Vicar or whatever to write the surname as > they thought fit. This is then made more complicated when the 'accent' > of the 'recorder' is not the same as the 'locals' and further more in > the case of Ireland where there are other languages being use, ie > Gaelic and/or Latin, makes even further difficulties in ascertaining > the correct spelling of a surname, but you all new that anyway. > > I will leave the data in my database at the point when the > MINGY/MINGEY emmigrated to USA and any thereafter and not try and > trace it back to Ireland, making a note for my 'heir apparent' to sort out this puzzle. > > Once again MANY THANKS to all replies. > > > Regards Tony > Anthony John MINGAY, now in NZ once of Kent & Suffolk, England but > still researching Worldwide the surname MINGAY & its variants. > http://www.mingayhistory.co.uk. > > _____________________________________________ > > RootsWeb lists - surnames, regions, software, etc > http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GOONS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > _____________________________________________ > > RootsWeb lists - surnames, regions, software, etc > http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GOONS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message -- Jim James M. Owston, EdD Owston One-Name Study #5647 owston@one-name.org http://www.one-name.org/cgi-bin/search.cgi?find=5647