Hi Leslie – > I think your John Fenn is from a Norfolk family, and the Yorkshire birth is a bit of a red herring. I am coming around to agreeing with you. Thomas was a recorded as a labourer with no mention of the Army - though he could have worked on the railways. MANY thanks for the work you have done. I shall follow that through. I think I will need a big piece of blank paper to sketch it all out. There is certainly a limit when you only have a screen of 17" and it doesn't allow scribbling at all angles, rubbing-out, etc. Much better on a large piece of backing paper (I have a roll I kept back from decorating). MANY thanks again, Chris From: Leslie Darbyshire [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: 26 March 2016 20:48 To: Christopher Gray; goons Subject: Re: [G] A brick-wall shouded in heavy mist - the FENNs Dear Christopher I think your John Fenn is from a Norfolk family, and the Yorkshire birth is a bit of a red herring. You have John living with his uncle and aunt in 1861. These are Christmas Loveday and Mary Ann nee Fenn who married in East Dereham, NFK, 28 Jul 1858. On the marriage cert her father is John Fenn. For them to be uncle and aunt to John Fenn jnr, Mary Ann must be the sister of John jnr's father Thomas. In 1851 Mary Ann Fenn was in service in Norfolk (HO107/1810/f8/p8), she is age 19 and her birth place is given as Hoe, NFK In 1841 she is in Hoe, NFK (HO107/778/bk14/f7/p8) with her family, including brother Thomas age 15 and parents John and Mary In 1851 Thomas is still in Hoe (HO107/1825/f8a/p11) age 27, with his mother (Mary Ann) age 57 shown as wife but no husband recorded there. Checking the births on Family Search, I found the baptisms of Thomas 26 May 1822 and Mary Ann 12 Jun 1831, both in Hoe NFK and both with parents John Fenn and Mary Trollop Thomas must have moved to Yorkshire after 1851 but before 1854 if son John was born there then. Have you details of John's birth - a certificate for instance? There is a marriage 26 Jun 1853 of a Thomas Fenn (father John Fenn) to Martha Ringwood in Calverley, YKS (very near Leeds) - are they John's parents? I wonder why Thomas moved to Yorkshire. Was he in the army at the time - there is a barracks in the area. Or had he got a job on the railway there? I think your 1871 census finding must be another John Fenn as the parents do not tie up at all - maybe the name really is Fein, as written. Hope this helps! Regards Leslie Darbyshire GOONS 3599 researching Brockwell/Brookwell On 25 March 2016 at 20:03 Christopher Gray via <[email protected]> wrote: Good evening, For the past couple of decades I have been frustrated in not being able to trace one of my maternal lines back. My great-grandmother was a Jane FENN (1880-1970) - one of twenty children to John Fenn (1854-1940) and Jane Hewitt (1858-1920) - married 4Jul1875. I have John for sure in the English census images from 1871 to 1911, it being the 1911 census that states that John and Jane had twenty children of which seven had died. I have the baptisms, BMD and census for most of the children - they are not the problem. It is John's parents that are killing me. The 1871 census gives his parents as Thomas and Elizabeth FENN. In 1861, I think I have John living with his Aunt and Uncle - Christmas and Mary Anne Loveday. 1861: RG09/1242 f108 p04 1871: RG10/0654 f706 p38 1881: RG11/0654 f050 p07 1891: RG12/0427 f011 p15 1901: RG13/0445 f070 p43 1911: RG14/2251 RD26 ED01 SN40 John's birth is recorded variously as Leeds (1861), Sheffield (1881, 1891, 1901, 1911) or just Yorkshire (1871) - so the odds are in favour of Sheffield. In his marriage records, John's father is Thomas FENN (labourer). The 1871 census shows his parents as Thomas and Elizabeth (Ancestry shows the surname as Fein - and I can see why - as there is a . above what looks like the i). My main problem is that, other than 1871, I can't find Thomas (b 1831, Yorkshire) and Elizabeth (b 1829, Huntingdonshire). Someone (Ancestry family tree) has found a possible marriage with Elizabeth Andrews (York 23 667, Jun 1846). The mists are because of another Thomas FENN married to an Elizabeth - this one being born in Staffordshire. Any advice and guidance would be VERY welcomed. It is one of the few personal lines I've not been able to drive back into the 18th Century. [By the way - I see John was in the railways - as were most of his brothers.] Regards Chris _____________________________________________ RootsWeb lists - surnames, regions, software, etc: http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message