Wendy Apologies. My first posting. I'll try again Phil -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: Re: [G] help with Spanish translation, please Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 17:01:52 +0100 From: Phil Lobley <[email protected]> To: tcloud <[email protected]>, [email protected] Happy to help. I don't really understand why the lines also seem to have been missed out from other online versions. My Spanish is now a bit rusty, and some of the wording in the original is a little archaic, but I believe it reads a little better as follows. " "The prisoners of war of both armies, up to this day, shall be put at liberty." "Having proceeded with the disclosure and exchange of credentials with which the Commissioners tasked with arranging the preceding Surrender introduced themselves; they, the commissioners appointed by the commandant and inspector general Martin Perfecto de Cos: Jose Juan Sanchez, adjutant inspector; Don Ramon Musquez, and lieutenant Francisco Rada, and interpreter, Don Miguel Arciniega; and those appointed by general Edward Burleson: colonel F. W. Johnson, major R.C. Morris, and captain J. G. Swisher, and interpreter John Cameron - after a long and serious discussion, adopted the eighteen preceding articles, reserving their ratification by the generals of both armies." "In virtue of which, we have signed this instrument in the city of Bejar, on the 11th of December, 1835" Regards Phil Lobley --------------------- On 14/04/2016 22:11, [email protected] wrote: > I'd like some help translating Spanish to English. > > Background -- in December 1835, the town of San Antonio in the U.S. > state of Texas was held by Mexican general Cos and was besieged by > people unhappy with the abrogation of the Mexican constitution of 1824 > by General Santa Ana. I'm questioning the translation I find for a > part of the terms of surrender, specifically article 18. This can be > seen with Spanish and English side-by-side here (page 3): > http://siegeofbexar.org/capitulation#cap3 > > Here is the Spanish transcription of article 18 and the English > translation I find for it: > > The Spanish transcription: > > "Los prisioneros de guerra hechos por los dos exercitos hasta hoy, se > pondran en libertad – Habiendo precidido la manifestacion y Canges de > las credensiales con que se presentaron los Comisionados para el > arreglo de la antecedente Capitulacion nombrado por parte del Sor > Comte Gral Ynspector Don Martin Perfto de Cos, El Ayudante Ynsp’or Don > Jose, Juan Sanchez, Don Ramon Musquez, y el tente Dn Francisco Rada, > Interprete Don Miguel Arsiniega: y por la del Sor Gral Don Edwardo > Burlison; El Sor Coronel Don F. W. Johnson, Mayor. R. C. Morris, > Capitan James G. Swisher, Interprete Don Juan Cameron y despues de una > delatada y seria Cos los diez y ocho articulos que preceden, a > propuesta de los del Sor Gral Burlison y a reserva de ser ratificados > y aprovados por ambos Generales; En cuya virtud, la firman en la > Ciudad de Bexar a los dos de la manana del dia 11 del mes de Deciembre > de 1835" > > > The supplied English translation: > > "The prisoners of both armies, up to this day, shall be put at liberty." > > "The commissioners, Jose Juan Sanchez, adjutant inspector; Don Ramon > Musquiz, and lieutenant Francisco Rada, and interpreter, Don Miguel > Arciniega; appointed by the commandant and inspector, general Martin > Perfecto de Cos, in connection with colonel F. W. Johnson, major R. C. > Morris, and captain J. G. Swisher, and interpreter John Cameron; > appointed on the part of general Edward Burleson: after a long and > serious discussion, adopted the eighteen preceding articles, reserving > their ratification by the generals of both armies." > > "In virtue of which, we have signed this instrument in the city of > Bejar, on the 11th of December, 1835" > > I don't read Spanish well, but the phrase "Habiendo precidido la > manifestacion y Canges de las credensiales con que se presentaron" > seems to have been omitted from the translation. > > thanks, > Tom >

Both translations seem to have left out what to me is one of the more fascinating phrases in the Spanish text, namely that it was signed "a los dos de la manana" which I read as "at two in the morning" - visions of lots of black coffee and hard bargaining? Nick Member 4108 Chesson and variants On 15/04/2016 17:19, Phil Lobley via wrote: > Wendy > Apologies. My first posting. I'll try again > > Phil > > > -------- Forwarded Message -------- > Subject: Re: [G] help with Spanish translation, please > Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 17:01:52 +0100 > From: Phil Lobley <[email protected]> > To: tcloud <[email protected]>, [email protected] > > > > Happy to help. I don't really understand why the lines also seem to > have been missed out from other online versions. My Spanish is now a > bit rusty, and some of the wording in the original is a little archaic, > but I believe it reads a little better as follows. > > " "The prisoners of war of both armies, up to this day, shall be put at > liberty." > "Having proceeded with the disclosure and exchange of credentials with > which the Commissioners tasked with arranging the preceding Surrender > introduced themselves; they, the commissioners appointed by the > commandant and inspector general Martin Perfecto de Cos: Jose Juan > Sanchez, adjutant inspector; Don Ramon Musquez, and lieutenant Francisco > Rada, and interpreter, Don Miguel Arciniega; and those appointed by > general Edward Burleson: colonel F. W. Johnson, major R.C. Morris, and > captain J. G. Swisher, and interpreter John Cameron - after a long and > serious discussion, adopted the eighteen preceding articles, reserving > their ratification by the generals of both armies." > > "In virtue of which, we have signed this instrument in the city of > Bejar, on the 11th of December, 1835" > > Regards > > Phil Lobley > --------------------- > > On 14/04/2016 22:11, [email protected] wrote: >> I'd like some help translating Spanish to English. >> >> Background -- in December 1835, the town of San Antonio in the U.S. >> state of Texas was held by Mexican general Cos and was besieged by >> people unhappy with the abrogation of the Mexican constitution of 1824 >> by General Santa Ana. I'm questioning the translation I find for a >> part of the terms of surrender, specifically article 18. This can be >> seen with Spanish and English side-by-side here (page 3): >> http://siegeofbexar.org/capitulation#cap3 >> >> Here is the Spanish transcription of article 18 and the English >> translation I find for it: >> >> The Spanish transcription: >> >> "Los prisioneros de guerra hechos por los dos exercitos hasta hoy, se >> pondran en libertad – Habiendo precidido la manifestacion y Canges de >> las credensiales con que se presentaron los Comisionados para el >> arreglo de la antecedente Capitulacion nombrado por parte del Sor >> Comte Gral Ynspector Don Martin Perfto de Cos, El Ayudante Ynsp’or Don >> Jose, Juan Sanchez, Don Ramon Musquez, y el tente Dn Francisco Rada, >> Interprete Don Miguel Arsiniega: y por la del Sor Gral Don Edwardo >> Burlison; El Sor Coronel Don F. W. Johnson, Mayor. R. C. Morris, >> Capitan James G. Swisher, Interprete Don Juan Cameron y despues de una >> delatada y seria Cos los diez y ocho articulos que preceden, a >> propuesta de los del Sor Gral Burlison y a reserva de ser ratificados >> y aprovados por ambos Generales; En cuya virtud, la firman en la >> Ciudad de Bexar a los dos de la manana del dia 11 del mes de Deciembre >> de 1835" >> >> >> The supplied English translation: >> >> "The prisoners of both armies, up to this day, shall be put at liberty." >> >> "The commissioners, Jose Juan Sanchez, adjutant inspector; Don Ramon >> Musquiz, and lieutenant Francisco Rada, and interpreter, Don Miguel >> Arciniega; appointed by the commandant and inspector, general Martin >> Perfecto de Cos, in connection with colonel F. W. Johnson, major R. C. >> Morris, and captain J. G. Swisher, and interpreter John Cameron; >> appointed on the part of general Edward Burleson: after a long and >> serious discussion, adopted the eighteen preceding articles, reserving >> their ratification by the generals of both armies." >> >> "In virtue of which, we have signed this instrument in the city of >> Bejar, on the 11th of December, 1835" >> >> I don't read Spanish well, but the phrase "Habiendo precidido la >> manifestacion y Canges de las credensiales con que se presentaron" >> seems to have been omitted from the translation. >> >> thanks, >> Tom >> > > > _____________________________________________ > > RootsWeb lists - surnames, regions, software, etc: > http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >