Hi Janet The one in Whaddon looks promising. Although he is said to have been born in Wotton under Edge in 1851 maybe the enumerator misinterpreted this and it should be Whaddon. Just a thought. Thankyou so much. Regards Celia

Celia, I posted my earlier reply before Josephine's response had come through in which she mentioned your John had a sister Elizabeth baptised c1813. The only Elizabeth SMART baptised in 1813 on the Baptismal Index is one on 9 August 1813 at Upton St Leonard's, parents James & Elizabeth, Labourer. They also had children Catherine Rosa bap 3 March 1816 and Emma baptised 16 August 1818. There are two Elizabeth SMARTs baptised in 1814, one in Whaddon on 27 March parents John & Mary, Labourer and the other in Shipton Moyne on 1 May, parents Christopher & Sarah, Carpenter. Janet > I noticed in the Gloucester List archives that, in one of your posts, you > mentioned that John Smart had a sister, Elizabeth, born in 1813. > > Elizabeth Smart's baptism might be on the Gloucester Diocese Baptism Index > 1813-1837 on CD produced by Gloucestershire Family History Society. > http://www.gfhs.org.uk/

Hi Janet Thanks so much for the info, I will certainly keep that on file. I have now ordered the Baptisms Index, can't wait for it to arrive. Many Thanks Celia

Hello Celia, Unfortunately my Gloucestershire FHS Baptismal Index only starts at 1813. However, there is a SMART family in Wotton under Edge having children from 1813 onwards, this being a Robert & Martha SMART, Labourer, residence Sinwell who had a Mary Ann baptised on 31 October 1813 plus various other children after that date. There is a marriage on 3 May 1808 at Wotton of a Robert SMART of Alderley & a Martha HUMPHERYS, by banns, so that would certainly give this couple time to have had other children prior to Mary Ann in 1813. Robert & Martha are in Bisley in the 1841 census, he being shown as aged 55 and a Gardener. By 1851, Martha is a widow still living in Bisley with grand daughter Charlotte CARPENTER and in Upper Lippiatt, Stroud in the 1861 census. There is a burial of a Robert SMART at Bisley on 6 May 1846, aged 60, of Kitleigh. I think the only way you are going to prove his parentage is to look through the actual parish registers, firstly of Wotton and then, if you have no joy there, Stroud or Alderley. Good luck Janet > The earliest record I have is just an IGI member submitted record John > Smart born about 1811 in Saul spouse Mary Holder. Also another IGI > with Stroud as his birthplace. I have his marriage record to Mary > Holder 3rd Nov 1836 in Rodborough with no parents recorded. I have > found him in all the census until his death in 1874 age 64 at Tipton > Staffs. In 1851 it states he was born Wotton under Edge. In 1861 & > 1871 Stroud is his birthplace. He was a Boatman. I would be so > grateful for any help.

Hi Listers, Yesterday Ian Sage mentioned Hailes Abbey, which set me on a train of thought. There is one historical visit during my far-off school days that stands out vividly in my memory. That was a trip to see the ruins of the once-magnificent Cistercian abbey at Hailes, near Winchcombe, and to learn about the famous relic formerly enshrined there, a vial reputedly containing the blood of Christ. As a child I remember the peacefulness of the site being very appealing, even though I was accompanied by a crowd of classmates. In later life I have often revisited the ruins, especially during the spring when the cowslips are in bloom. I am interested in children's fiction so when two novels featuring Hailes Abbey came to my notice, I acquired them. One story which briefly describes a visit to Hailes is Cotswold Holiday by Winifred Finlay (George G. Harrap & Co. 1954). The relevant pages are 97-101, within Chapter VI which is entitled The Monks of Hayles. Another children's tale is Pan's Wood by Geoffrey Hoyland (Faber & Faber 1947) which also features the abbey. Josephine -- Josephine Jeremiah www.ianandjo.dsl.pipex.com

On Wed, 10 Aug 2011 10:05:30 +0100, Celia Bailey <celiabailey@sky.com> wrote: > Hi Josephine > Thanks for your help, I am going to order the index. I didn't know > they had published it. Hi Celia, I believe that the Gloucester Diocese Baptism Index 1813-1837 on CD was produced by Gloucestershire Family History Society after you had begun searching on rootsweb for your SMART family. It's often worth checking a Family History Society web site, such as the GFHS site (http://www.gfhs.org.uk/) to see what publications have become available recently. I remember buying the Gloucester Diocese Marriage Index 1800-1837 on CD at one of the Gloucestershire Family History Society Open Days at Gloucester. At the Open Day a look up had been done for me on the marriage of my 4x great-grandparents, but I bought the CD anyway, even though at the time I thought only one marriage on it would relate to my family as most of my Gloucestershire family events took place in the Diocese of Bristol. However, I'm pleased that I bought it as, subsequently, I found it very useful. Josephine -- Josephine Jeremiah www.ianandjo.dsl.pipex.com

On 09/08/2011 22:06, Nancy Frey wrote: > Hi Ian, > > I think you're on the right track. Hello Nancy, Many thanks for your encouragement and advice. It's not clear where the SAGE name comes from; there are contradictory accounts in surname dictionaries and other references. There are a lot of SAGEs in France, and a French/Norman origin is a strong possibility. There are also a number of le Sage and de Sageville families. I note there are also a few Norwegian SAGEs, and there is a Sage homestead in Norway. I can fantasise that the name spread with Vikings to Normandy and thence with the Normans into England - but fantasy it is! Anyhow, as I said, I don't really have the conceit that I'll ever attach my family to any of the lines at this early date, but I am interested to see how the name arose in the Gloucester/Somerset border area and I am certainly learning a lot. Best wishes, Ian

On 09/08/2011 18:29, Katherine Hocking wrote: > Hi, Try typing in Heraldic Visitations into Google and they may well turn > up. Cannot remember which areas are covered and records still in existance. > HV records are a bit slow to use but if I remember correctly it is possible > to find an index at the very end. Have used it for Welsh Records mostly. > Katherine > Hello Katherine, Many thanks indeed for this suggestion. Here again, plenty of material to keep me going for a while. The information I have found is quite sparse, and I wonder if your experience can help me a little more? Looking at, for example, the readily available 1623 Visitation of Gloucestershire I have found the records of the Albaney family, which begins with the marriage of John Albaney of Kingesholme to Ciceley. This could tie in with one of the records which Josephine pointed out. There are no dates given, but I count 6 generations from top to bottom of the tree, and if the bottom of the tree corresponds to 1623, we can guess that the top dates to perhaps 1440-ish. That's a likely 50-year discrepancy compared to the other source. Nevertheless, the connection seems good because of, for example, the correspondence of Eve, wife of Simon Cadle in the British History Online page, with Ebane, wife of Simond Cadull in the visitation as well as other parallels. Six generations could plausibly stretch an extra 50 years - even though several of the generations are through the female line, and concern the first born (or eldest surviving) child. But I can't quite make the accounts agree - possibly due to missing information rather than any contradiction. Do you know, are the bottoms of the trees in the visitation tables contemporary with the visitation date? How reliable do you regard the information, and are there good sources to supplement them? Most of the references I see, seem to be to Fine Rolls. I am beginning to regret not having paid attention in my school Latin classes! Any hints or advice would be most welcome. Kind regards, Ian

Hi Josephine Thanks for your help, I am going to order the index. I didn't know they had published it. Kind Regards Celia

Hi Carolyn Thanks so much for the census data although I already have all census for him and all his children etc but I do appreciate your help. Regards Celia

Hi Seems quite difficult to estimate - the figure often quoted for travel then is about 1d per mile .... there are 60 pennies in 5/-. But this was the cost of going by mail coach. There would have been other private businesses running services between places for less than this. 5/- in 1828 would be equal to about £205 in equivalent wages today and about £18 using the retail price index. http://www.measuringworth.com/ppoweruk/ Regards Dave -----Original Message----- From: gloucester-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:gloucester-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Bonnie Malmat Sent: 10 August 2011 00:27 To: gloucester@rootsweb.com; GLOUCESTER-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [GLS] Travel? If someone was given five shillings to travel to her new place of employment (she was going into service) in 1828, how far would that take her? Would that be enough to get to Manchester? She lived in Upper Slaughter parish, not far from Cheltenham. Thanks for any help, or links to any helpful places. Bonz _____________________________________________ Gloucestershire Family History Society: www.gfhs.org.uk Gloucestershire Archives: www.gloucestershire.gov.uk/index.cfm?articleid=15434 Gloucestershire BMD Index 1837 to 2005: http://ww3.gloucestershire.gov.uk/bmd/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GLOUCESTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1392 / Virus Database: 1520/3823 - Release Date: 08/09/11

Hello Celia There are options to your issue..... "...I am desperate to find his birth/baptism record. I can't trawl through the Baptisms records in Gloucestershire as I live in Lancashire...." Lancashire is only just up the road from Gloucestershire, I live in Australia with ancestry in Gloucestershire (thanks to the transportation of convicts). 20 years ago I ordered the Gloucestershire BDM's on mircrofilm at a local LDS Family History Centre (in Australia) and extracted all my POVEY and related entries. Those records opened lots of doors, then i moved to wills and managed to get the family structure back across 3 counties to the 1570s where I was stuck at a burial on the 1st page of the 1st register in 1576. I assume there are Family History Centres, libraries, record offices, etc in lancashire where you could do the same. You should be rewarded with a little burrowing into the old files... Regards Daryl Povey Ballarat, Australia At 07:19 AM 10/08/2011, you wrote: >From: Celia Bailey <celiabailey@sky.com> >To: GLOUCESTER-L@rootsweb.com >Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 21:51:17 +0100 >Subject: [GLS] My Brick Wall of 10 Years - John Smart > >Hi All > >Just thought I'd post this again in the hope that someone else may be >looking for the same man. I am desperate to find his birth/baptism >record. I can't trawl through the Baptisms records in Gloucestershire >as I live in Lancashire. > >The earliest record I have is just an IGI member submitted record John >Smart born about 1811 in Saul spouse Mary Holder. Also another IGI >with Stroud as his birthplace. I have his marriage record to Mary >Holder 3rd Nov 1836 in Rodborough with no parents recorded. I have >found him in all the census until his death in 1874 age 64 at Tipton >Staffs. In 1851 it states he was born Wotton under Edge. In 1861 & >1871 Stroud is his birthplace. He was a Boatman. I would be so >grateful for any help. > >Regards >Celia

On Tue, 09 Aug 2011 21:51:17 +0100, Celia Bailey <celiabailey@sky.com> wrote: > The earliest record I have is just an IGI member submitted record John > Smart born about 1811 in Saul spouse Mary Holder. Also another IGI > with Stroud as his birthplace. I have his marriage record to Mary > Holder 3rd Nov 1836 in Rodborough with no parents recorded. I have > found him in all the census until his death in 1874 age 64 at Tipton > Staffs. In 1851 it states he was born Wotton under Edge. In 1861 & > 1871 Stroud is his birthplace. He was a Boatman. I would be so > grateful for any help. Hi Celia, I noticed in the Gloucester List archives that, in one of your posts, you mentioned that John Smart had a sister, Elizabeth, born in 1813. Elizabeth Smart's baptism might be on the Gloucester Diocese Baptism Index 1813-1837 on CD produced by Gloucestershire Family History Society. http://www.gfhs.org.uk/ Perhaps some one could do a look up for you if you don't already have it. (I would, but I don't have this CD.) Josephine -- Josephine Jeremiah www.ianandjo.dsl.pipex.com

Hi Daryl Thanks for your comments. Regarding the distance from home to Gloucestershire, I am not in a position to drive long distances any more. I have been researching my family for 20 years now along with being the transcriber for Lancs OPC Warrington and surrounds for many years, doing hundreds of lookups for people along the way. A few years ago a lady kindly looked at some Stroud records and Saul but couldn't find it. I merely needed some ideas. Yes, I could order a film from LDS but I can't say for definite which town it would be in. I was just hoping that maybe someone is also researching John Smart. Regards Celia

On Tue, 09 Aug 2011 21:57:28 +0100, Ian Sage <ian.sage@tiscali.co.uk> wrote: > Goodness Josephine, you've excelled yourself. The records you've > identified seem to include a significant landowning SAGE family, and a > possibly related group of folks around the city of Gloucester. I will > certainly need to study these sources more closely to extract all the > background. Hi Ian, Thanks for your response. I knew you'd be pleased:-) You know how I enjoy ferreting in the records rather than doing the mundane things I should be doing! Any minute now I'm expecting my other half to send me an e-mail asking me to make him a cup of tea. > Many thanks for taking so much trouble looking out these records for me > - not only for the SAGE > references, but also pointing me toward some interesting places to > search for other information. It's always a pleasure to help a distant relative by marriage such as yourself:-) You have also pointed me in the direction of finding my copy of Hailes Abbey Gloucestershire: The Story of a Medieval Abbey by D. Winkless. I had to search for it as it wasn't in its usual place. I was invited to attend the launch of this book at Hailes Abbey. My signed copy indicates that this took place on 20th. June 1990, a long time ago, now. I love going to Hailes Abbey for its peaceful atmosphere. My first visit to Hailes was as a child and I have gone there often since then. Josephine -- Josephine Jeremiah www.ianandjo.dsl.pipex.com

On Tue, 09 Aug 2011 09:49:38 +0100, Ian Sage <ian.sage@tiscali.co.uk> wrote: > My SAGE ancestors can be traced with certainty to mid-18th century > Yatton, Somerset, then disappear in a haze. > However, the earliest reference I have to the name is in 1277, when John > SAGE granted 100 solidates of land at "Brickhampton" (Brockhampton?) > Gloucs to the recently founded Hailes Abbey. Hi Ian, I have been having some thoughts on Brickhampton. I think that this could have been the deserted medieval village called Brickhampton at or near Staverton Bridge, Gloucestershire. Josephine -- Josephine Jeremiah www.ianandjo.dsl.pipex.com

On 09/08/2011 21:03, Josephine Jeremiah wrote: > There's a lot to keep you going here, Ian:-) Goodness Josephine, you've excelled yourself. The records you've identified seem to include a significant landowning SAGE family, and a possibly related group of folks around the city of Gloucester. I will certainly need to study these sources more closely to extract all the background. The landowning family seem to have been well-heeled enough that there may be a chance of following their fortunes before and after the era in question - but there is a hint in the article about Cecily of Kingsholm that some lines of the family "daughtered out" and vanished. I am delighted to find that many of the places mentioned are still on the map; there is even still a Kingstone Road at Slimbridge. Clearly I am going to have to put some hours in on this! Many thanks for taking so much trouble looking out these records for me - not only for the SAGE references, but also pointing me toward some interesting places to search for other information. Best wishes, Ian

Hi All Just thought I'd post this again in the hope that someone else may be looking for the same man. I am desperate to find his birth/baptism record. I can't trawl through the Baptisms records in Gloucestershire as I live in Lancashire. The earliest record I have is just an IGI member submitted record John Smart born about 1811 in Saul spouse Mary Holder. Also another IGI with Stroud as his birthplace. I have his marriage record to Mary Holder 3rd Nov 1836 in Rodborough with no parents recorded. I have found him in all the census until his death in 1874 age 64 at Tipton Staffs. In 1851 it states he was born Wotton under Edge. In 1861 & 1871 Stroud is his birthplace. He was a Boatman. I would be so grateful for any help. Regards Celia

On Tue, 09 Aug 2011 09:49:38 +0100, Ian Sage <ian.sage@tiscali.co.uk> wrote: > My SAGE ancestors can be traced with certainty to mid-18th century > Yatton, Somerset, then disappear in a haze. > However, the earliest reference I have to the name is in 1277, when John > SAGE granted 100 solidates of land at "Brickhampton" (Brockhampton?) > Gloucs to the recently founded Hailes Abbey. > Is anyone aware of other records relating to the SAGE name at early > dates? Hi Ian, There are 13th-and-14th-century references to John SAGE in the time of King Edward I and King Edward II in 'Rental of all the houses in Gloucester, 1455, from a roll in the possession of the corporation of Gloucester': http://www.archive.org/stream/rentalofallhouse00glouuoft/rentalofallhouse00glouuoft_djvu.txt Josephine -- Josephine Jeremiah www.ianandjo.dsl.pipex.com

On Tue, 09 Aug 2011 09:49:38 +0100, Ian Sage <ian.sage@tiscali.co.uk> wrote: > My SAGE ancestors can be traced with certainty to mid-18th century > Yatton, Somerset, then disappear in a haze. > However, the earliest reference I have to the name is in 1277, when John > SAGE granted 100 solidates of land at "Brickhampton" (Brockhampton?) > Gloucs to the recently founded Hailes Abbey. > Is anyone aware of other records relating to the SAGE name at early > dates? Hi Ian, There are a number of late 13th-century and early 14th-century references to SAGE in the 'Calendar of the records of the Corporation of Gloucester' compiled by W.H. Stevenson and printed in 1893: http://www.archive.org/stream/calendarofrecord00glouuoft/calendarofrecord00glouuoft_djvu.txt There are references to John SAGE in 1248, in c.1260, in 1262-3 and in 1274. In 1275-6 the shop of John SAGE and the shop of William SAGE are mentioned and the shops are mentioned again in c.1280. John SAGE was a witness on four occasions in c.1280. In 1295 Walter the Wise (Le Sage) is mentioned along with his father William the Wise and his brother John the Wise. More SAGE references are in the early 14th century, including one in 1317 describing John SAGE as cordiwaner' and burgess of Gloucester. In 1318, there's a reference to John SAGE of Brithampton and in 1320 to John SAGE of Brithamton. There's a lot to keep you going here, Ian:-) Josephine -- Josephine Jeremiah www.ianandjo.dsl.pipex.com