Some more bits I have picked up from the Scottish lists which may help some of you.... There's a whole list and a web site dedicated to Ulster Scots/ Scotch Irish research. "Scotch Irish" is a term only used in the USA to identify non Catholic immigrants from Ireland. Most of them came from Ulster and most were of Scottish background, but there were Palatinate Germans, Huguenots, Welsh, English, Irish who converted, and a few others I am forgetting mixed in, so the term is not synonymous with "Ulster Scot". Most of the Ulster Scots were from the western counties of Scotland and many came first in 1605 and later. However there have always been Scots in Ulster and IRish in Scotland. In fact Scotland is named after a tribe of Irish who invaded and displaced the Picts -- the Scotti. This was about 500 AD. There was a Irish rebellion in 1641-51, persecution of Scots Presyberians before and after, the problem in 1689-- all resulted in many Scots/Protestants fleeing to Scotland (the only parts that were held were Derry and Enniskillen; anyone who didn't make it there or failed to hide well was massacred). Since Scotland is closer than Catalina Island is to California, it was not hard to return or move there before/after various events. Immigration was constant. So you do not know if your ancestors were there for 2, 5, or 10 generations. Many will be found to be indigenous Irish due to intermarrying (I have Hagertys, McGarry, and Kane in my background -- two of the three Irish septs). Some surnames are English and may have arrived in the 1580's via an English colony, originating in Devon. Amazing numbers of those Devonshire surnames survive! Some came over in the mid 1500's when the MacDonnell clan invaded Northern Antrim. I have ancestors who accompanied them. Modern day Scotsmen hate the word "Scotch" though Queen Elizabeth I used it to described "Scotch Irish" in Ulster in the 1500's -- so the term is hoary with tradition and ....clearly there were some there before the great plantations of James VI/I, who succeeded her to the throne. It must have been these she was complaining of -- the highland McDonnells -- "wild Scots" to her <grin>. Bell "The Book of Ulster Surnames" is excellent for identifying surname origin. Some surnames that Black says are Scots (and which are) may have had independent origins in Ireland as an Irish surname. In other cases small septs of Ulster Irish adopted the same surnames as their Scots cousins -- largely because they all spoke Gaelic and so they anglicized their surnames to the same English name too. In the Gaelic world -- Eastrn Ulster and western Scotland are ONE culture. Many of the Western clans claim descent from Ulster O'Neill princes. A number of them were Ulster Irish clans who moved to Scotland at some point in the past. Especially in North Antrim, due to the MacDonnell invasion, there are far more highland Scots and is generally beleived. It was never part of a lowland or English plantation scheme. After James VI/I awarded it to the MacDonnells, it was settled by Irish, highland followers of the MacDonnells, and lowlanders/English/etc who drifted north or immigrated from Scotland. Probably the best source of information is Hanna "The Scotch Irish". Best of luck, Linda Merle at <merle@fea.net> At the risk of being trumped by someone who knows more about Ulster Scots than I, which would be easy, let me give it a try. They are people of Scot descent who come from what is better known as Northern Ireland in today's news. The area is also called Ulster, since that was the name of the county in Ireland of which is was a part before Ireland won its independence from Britain. The majority of its residents descend from Scots who were Protestants and migrated there from Scotland in the 17th and 18th centuries, but a large portion of the residents, at least a third, are of direct Irish descent and Roman Catholic. Thus those who are of Scots descent are called "Ulster Scots." I suspect "Ulster Irish" would simply be those people with Irish roots in Northern Ireland. I'm have no ancestors from the area, so I'm not entirely up on all the nuances of naming in the area, but, like many Americans have a Scot, English, and Irish ancestors, plus many other nationalities, so the area is of general interest to me. Perhaps, someone else will have a better explanation. Best regards, Kelvin Kean Elverson, Pennsylvania at <kkean@ix.netcom.com> I notice that since this list was started that there have been only twelve people that have posted anything to it. As there are almost 50 list members does that mean that 60% of you do not have any ancestry to tell us about and that you don't need any help. I don't think so! If it is not what you want, or there is any way I can make it work better please tell me by posting your suggestions to the list. If you don't know how to use the list or having problems using it please contact me directly at <Bruce.Glass@xtra.co.nz> I shall continue to provide whatever information I find to enable your research efforts, however if I get no feedback I don't know if what I am providing is of any bennefit to anyone. I initiated the list as I know that there are a lot of Glass researchers out there and in time some of you are going to find out that you are directly related. I have had success through the bulk mailing list that I was co-ordinating prior to setting up this list, so if can happen for me it can happen for you. If you don't wish to have your research progress any further then the best way to stop any progress is to ignore the aids that are available such as this list. So come on take a chance, the research material that you have maybe what someone else on the list is trying desperately to find. If you have copious amounts of data try posting a small amount of what you think maybe inportant to someone, then follow it up later with a bit more. I am getting together a posting of what I have and this will be posted shortly. Even though the cost of providing the list is not great there is still a cost involved. If it is not required I shall not continue to provide it. Here endeth the lesson! Haere Ra, Bruce Glass, List Owner.