Yes, I think it's important to look back at the work that's already been done and the information that we have at hand, as well as research further. I'm forwarding this next part of my response to the family of Jacob Holtzclaw and his paternal line's involvement with the iron industry, but I've had no luck in it being posted after many tries. This message that I sent last night also did not appear today: Jacob Holtzclaw's father, Hans Henrich Holtzclaw, was admitted to the Guild of Smelterers and Hammersmiths in 1664, but became a schoolteacher later, I think around 1667. He was the schoolmaster at Trupbach from 1667-1670 and was the schoolmaster there again after 1681. His eldest son, Johannes, became the schoolmaster at Trupbach after his father in 1693. From 1671 to 1680, he was the schoolmaster at Krombach. So, Jacob's father was both a teacher and an iron worker simultaneously. Hans Henrich Holtzclaw had 15 siblings. I'll deal with the brothers that were involved with the iron industry here: 1. Johann Holtzclaw b. 1640--admitted to the Guild Smelterers and Hammersmiths in 1656 Johann's sons, Tillman and Johannes, were also members of the Guild of Smelterers and Hammersmiths and were in the iron industry at Muesenershuetten. BC Holtzclaw states that Johannes was connected with the iron industry all of his life. 2. Johannes b. 1637--his godfather was Johannes Schutt of Muesenershuetten, part owner of the ironworks at Muesenershuetten and the Hardt. 3. Ebert Holtzclaw b. 1645--Member of the Guild of Smelterers and Hammersmith in 1658 4. Johann Henrich Holtzclaw b. 1651-2--Member of the Guild of Smelterers and Hammersmiths in 1671. He was a moulder and smelterer and was in the iron industry all of his life "becoming an associate justice both of the Court of Mines and, also, of the Court of the Hain." Jacob Holtzclaw's grandfather, Johannes Holtzclaw, was a teacher and he was also part owner of the Schneppenkauten Hammer from about 1632 to 1653. He was a teacher and he was part owner of the ironworks simultaneously. Jacob's paternal line via the Holtzclaws most definitely was connected to the iron industry. Jacob's maternal line has even more extensive involvement in the iron industry as his grandmother was probably Hebel, the daughter of Henrich Flender Muess of Schneppenkauten. We can trace Hebel Muess's ancestry back to Cone Busch b. ca 1400 and the owner of the Haardt iron works in 1444. This iron works, which included a hammer and smelter, was co-owned by a Busch, possibly Cone's father, and his sister, Else Sel. There is evidence that this was in operation as early as 1375. Jacob Holtzclaw is descended from 2 of Cone Busch's sons, Hen and Gotthard Busch. Hilla Busch, the daughter of Gotthard Busch, married Gerhard Busch, the son of Hen above. Jacob Holtzclaw's mother, Gertrud Solbach, is also a descendant of Gotthard Busch. She's also a descendant of the Fick, Patt, Muess, Muenker, Shutte, Flender, and Haardt families, all of whom were intimately connected to the iron industry. BC Holtzclaw states that the Fick family "were among the most prominent pioneer iron-masters in Nassau-Siegen, being founders of at least five ironworks between 1400 and 1475, Muenkershutten and Fickenhuetten in the Wiedenau township; Dilnhuetten in the Bottenbach township; Geisweid in the Klafeld township; and Dilnhenrichuetten (later called the Sighutte) in the Siegen township." I'll list the various iron hammers and smelts in the general area of the First Colony next, but it's late!! Barb Price In a message dated 11/10/2008 11:48:29 Pacific Standard Time, drcary@cox.net writes: Not being of the First Colonists, I still have found this discussion interesting. As it appears that not all the occupations have been clearly identified for the first colonists, and probably all the others on the Germanna list, it would be good if folks looked through their material, just as Barb has done, and see what they have on occupations. Then, with sharing, perhaps a complete list of occupations may be found. Parents of the immigrants also would be neat to know. As I do research on ancestors in German Church Records, I have noted that the occupation is not always in a marriage, birth, or death record pertaining to an individual. Sometimes it appears almost everytime the ancestor appears. Other times is rarely is noted. The grandfather of my Katz immigrant was one that I thought I would never find. He had 17 children. Eventually, I found where he had "bauer" after his name. I first found this when he was named as a Godparent in a baptismal record. With the Katz family, I never failed to find the occupation all the way back to about 1550. Before that, military and tax records were necessary to extend the family back another hundred years. The surname was well merited as the village at times seemed to be populated by nothing but Katz. 25 per cent of the soldiers killed in each World War carried the surname. Their pictures, with the exception of one, hang in the hall outside the city administrator's office. Cary ----- Original Message ----- From: <RockCatt@aol.com> To: <wwallace@muskingum.edu>; <germanna_colonies@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 11:02 PM Subject: Re: [GERMANNA] First Colony Not Miners? My thoughts exactly! There may not have been "miners" in the First Colony, but I can assure you that many of them had the mining industry in their blood. Jacob Holtzclaw's ancestors were involved in mining, mines and iron hammers from the early 1400's as were the Fischbachs. I think that what we had with the 1714 Immigrants was a community, if you will, with carpenters, a blacksmith, a school teacher, a pastor, farmers along with their involvement with the mining industry, and their ancestor's involvement. Jacob Holtzclaw's father was a schoolteacher, but he was also a member of the Guild of Smelterers and Hammersmiths, so was his grandfather. I also think that we have to keep in mind that being in the iron industry, such as a hammersmith, was probably not the only job that they had as they could not always work at that job. I was conducting research a couple of years ago about Buschhuetten, the Iron Hammer owned by Jacob Holtzclaw's ancestors from 1486 to 1746, that's 260 years! The hammer did not operate every day, in fact, its operation depended on enough water, enough charcoal, enough pig iron and enough money. The operation of the hammer could also be limited by the Prince in power, he controlled the number of hammer days. If he thought that the hammer was requiring too many trees to be cut down to operate the blower, he would limit the number of days of operation. Hence, many of the ironworks owners were farmers, too, which balanced the economy of the area as well. Here's the list of the men from the First Colony, their occupations and their involvement with the mining industry: Brombach/Brumback, Melchior/Melcherd, b. 1685 at Musen (came as a bachelor) I'm not sure of his occupation, but his grandfather was a carpenter and joiner. Cuntze/Koontz, Jost b. 1674 at Nierderndorf Member of the Steelsmiths and Toolmakers Guild of Ferndorf. His father was a toolmaker and so were his 3 brothers. Fischbach/Fishback, Philip b. 1661 at Seelbach--not sure of his occupation, but his ancestors owned Hammers in Nierderndorf from the 1400's, Tyl van Fispe, his earliest ancestor and they were active in the iron industry for centuries. Haeger/Häger, Rev. Johann Henrich b. 1644 at Antzhausen Heide/Heite/Hitt, Peter/Deiter b. ca 1680-83 at Rehbach--occupation unkown Hoffmann/Hoffman/Huffman, Johannes b. 1692 at Eisern (came as a bachelor to VA) Eisern--not sure of his occupation, but father was a fuhrmann, an exporter of iron goods and his ancestors were all admitted as smelterers to the Guild of Smelterers and Hammersmiths. -BC Holtzclaw states that this means that they were part owners of a smelter or ironworks, possibly the iron works at Eisern Holzklau/Holtzclaw, Hans Jacob b. 1683 at Trupbach-- His occupation was schoolteacher, but his father was first admitted to the Guild of Smelterers and Hammersmiths in 1664, later he quit this job and became a schoolmaster. Jacob's grandfather, and several of his uncles, were members of the Guild of H ammersmiths and Smelterers, and he was also a schoolteacher. Jacob's grandmother, Hebel Muess, was descended from the Busch and Flender families, associated with iron and ironworks from the 1400's, his ancestor, Gotthard Busch, was "one of the wealthiest and most enterprising iron-masters of the 16th century in Nassau-Siegen" per BC Holtzclaw. He's also descended from the Patt and Fick families, also associated with the iron industry from the 1300's. Kemper/Camper, Johannes b. 1692 at Muesen (came as a bachelor)--Not sure of his occupation, but his father was a church elder at Musen and his grandfather was a smith as was his great grandfather and his ancestors prior to that. Their name was Schmith, Smyt and Schmidt because of their trade. Merdten/Martin, Johnan Jost/John Joseph b. 1691 at Muesen --I don't know his occupation, but his grandfather, Jacob Merten, was an Associate Justice of the Court of the Mines. Several of his ancestors were connected with the customs service. Otterbach/Utterback, Johann Hermann b. 1664 at Trupbach--His occupation was Fuhrmann, or a middle man in the export of iron. His grandfather was a member of the Guild of Smelterers and Hammersmiths as a Huettenknecht, a handy man around the forges. Richter/Rector, Johann Jacob b. 1674 at Trupbach--Admitted to the Guild of Steelsmiths and Toolmakers of the Freudenberg District as a Toolmaker on 7 Jan 1712 per BC Holtzclaw. Spielmann/Spilman, Johannes b. 1679 at Oberschelden--I'm not sure of his occupation, but his ancestor was a window maker. Weber/Weaver, Johann Henrich b. 1667 at Eisern--I'm not sure of his occupation Half of the First Colony had some involvement with the iron industry and like I said before, they may not have been actual miners, but I can't help but believe that they knew the industry. Barb Price In a message dated 11/9/2008 19:42:43 Pacific Standard Time, wwallace@muskingum.edu writes: Suszanne, How do you understand Hans Jacob's ancestor's connection to the Haardt Ironworks (Ancestry and Desendants ..Pg.230 ff)? I am not suggesting that the First Colonists were miners, just that ironworks appear to be a family business back several generations especially on the maternal side. Julie ----- Original Message Follows ----- > > I am not throwing Albrecht, Alexander Spotswood or de > Graffenried into the trash. I don't think John is > either-but he can answer for himself. > > Albrecht may be the only one who could have claimed to be > a miner. I doubt Spotswood ever did any mining work on > his own. No doubt he was looking for silver-but with > others supplying the labor. My understanding of John's > statements was that the First Colony people themselves > were not miners based on the known information about their > livelihoods before their arrival in the Virginia Colony. > > Speaking specifically of the Holtzclaw/Holzklau family: > Hans Jacob Holtzklau was a school teacher as were his > grandfather, father and brother Johannes. Going back into > the records at the Munster archives, it seems the > Holzklaus were farmers and/or overseers on land owned by a > Catholic convent near Oberholzklau, plus a few who were > beer sellers and bakers. The direct line ancestors seemed > to be in other jobs than smelting iron ore. > > Has anyone researched the amount of iron ore produced in > the Siegen area by year? It might be interesting to > discover when the ironworks were most active. > > Suzanne Colliins Matson > > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Craig Kilby <persisto@earthlink.net> > To: germanna_colonies@rootsweb.com > Sent: Sunday, November 9, 2008 12:45:59 PM > Subject: [GERMANNA] First Colony Not Miners? > > Whoah! Back up the bus! > > I seem to recall John Blankenbaker, some years ago on this > same list, in one of his thousand + notes, gave a lot of > thought and research into this very topic, particularly > about Joseph Albrecht, Gov. Spottswood and the imposter > "Baron" de Graffenried, (the founder of New Bern, > NC)....are we now throwing all of this into the trash? > > Craig Kilby > > On Nov 9, 2008, at 3:00 AM, > germanna_colonies-request@rootsweb.com wrote: > > > Subject: Re: [GERMANNA] Miners in the First Colony? > > (Part II) To: germanna_colonies@rootsweb.com > > Message-ID: > > <510931.52431.qm@web59503.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > > Are the sources Willis Kemper used known? > > > > Rev. J. Silor Garrison gave the same information in his > > book History of the Reformed Church in Virginia, > > 1714-1940 which was published in 1948.? Rev. Garrison > did not give his sources. > > > Since no one has responded, perhaps there is no proof > > that they were miners. > > > > Suzanne Collins Matson > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: "john.blankenbaker@comcast.net" > > john.blankenbaker@comcast.net Sent: Wednesday, November > > 5, 2008 6:48:05 AM Subject: Re: [GERMANNA] Miners in the > First Colony? (Part II) > > > Suzanne, > > Willis Kemper really started the ball rolling with the > > idea that the First Colony consisted of miners. > > > > -- > > John.Blankenbaker@comcast.net > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > To contact the GERMANNA_COLONIES list administrator, > > send an email to GERMANNA_COLONIES-admin@rootsweb.com. > > > > To post a message to the GERMANNA_COLONIES mailing list, > > send an email to GERMANNA_COLONIES@rootsweb.com. > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > GERMANNA_COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word > > "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and > > the body of the email with no additional text. > > > > > > End of GERMANNA_COLONIES Digest, Vol 3, Issue 313 > > ************************************************* > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMANNA_COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the > body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMANNA_COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the > body of the message bill and julie wallace ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GERMANNA_COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message **************AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and all other Holiday needs. 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