I have followed the discussion regarding the occupation of the First Colonist. Several things have been discussed. 1. Guild of Smelterers and Hammersmiths. Barb, you know I like to see the German spelling of the terms as it helps me learn more of what I need to look for. I know Hammerschmied[t] and I believe Schmelzarbeitter is a Smelter. There would be Guilds for these workers. Even though they are distinct from each other, it appears both belong to a joint guild. First, one was an apprentice. When the apprentice became somewhat knowledgeable about various parts of the craft, then he was tested. If he could satisfy the masters of the trade, then he would become a journeyman or fellow of the craft. Eventually, he might become skilled enough to acquire all the secrets of the craft and would be entitled to be called a master of the trade. The Guild of Smelterers and Hammersmiths were not miners. They were the ones who took the iron ore and processed it into useable products. Anyone with a strong back, and even if one didn't have such, could work the mines. There were no secrets to protect there that would allow anyone to become a man of means. I believe the diaries of Jean de la Fontaine that remarks about what he encountered at Germanna to be true. I have not read that part personally, but am well-acquainted with some of his writings. What I do not know is "Did Spottswood pay the transportation from Germany to Virginia?" Not being a descendant of the First Colony, I sometimes drift off in discussions about them. Miners. I would imagine that most men in the Siegen area knew about the iron mines. Most had probably from time to time dug up some of the ore. Even a schoolmaster had time off and could use some extra money from time to time. The easiest way in the Siegen area would be to work digging up the iron ore. Then if someone came through promising to pay your way to the New World if you were involved in the iron industry, I am certain some "simple" miners would say, "I sure am, sign me up." Inferences can certainly be made if one knows what was going on in a particular area at a particular time. In Arkansas following World War II and for many years after, school teachers hardly made a living wage. Many schools went about 8 weeks in July, August, and early September. Then school was out to get the crops in. Cotton was labor intensive. I remember that many school teachers, especially those men married, went to the cotton fields to pick cotton. Those who were good at it could make as much or more than the hourly wage of a school teacher! Think to the seasonal occupations of the men in Siegen land. Many would have periods of free time. So most could have been involved in digging ore from time to time and probably were. 2. Fuhrmann has a number of meanings. Cassel's German-English dictionary, revised 1909, gives carrier, driver, coachman, wagoner. Thode has freight handler; carrier, carter. Bentz gives coachman and wagoner. Webster gives carter as one who carries or conveys in or as if in a cart. Webster has first for carrier as an individual or organization engaged in transporting passengers or goods for hire. 3. Schuldiener. Thode gives it as school teacher, but for just diener he gives servant. When working with German records, I always go to Thode first; however, I also check in various other works. Cassel has for Schuldiener as a school porter. Bentz has only diener and gives it as a servant. Cassel has for diener: (man) servant, attendant; official; reverence, bow Bahlow's Dictionary of German names has Diener as being Upper German. Servant is the meaning. He reports it first found as Conrad Diener, a friar, in Freiburg 1304. While a friar is a preaching monk, he is also a servant of God. Working in the 1600s and 1700s, it is very difficult for us today to grasp just what some of the words meant. In fact, it was difficult from village to village to determine what the same word meant. Bismark tried to put an end to that, but I understand from some of the folks I have visited with on the Germanna tours that words still mean different things to different folks. That is true in English also. How many have a spanner in their house. It takes a lot of effort to make sense out of some words even in different regions of the U.S. Where I grew up in Arkansas, three speech pattern zones came together. Evening meant different things to different folks. To some it was afternoon; to others it was after dark. So on and so forth. Two hours to hunt these meaning out and I am still not sure exactly what Suzanne will get from this. But, keep digging. I enjoy the discussion and hopefully I helped a bit. Cary

Well, I learned that I have a different dictionary-Langenscheidt's.  It is always good to look at more than one dictionary.  Good point about the Guild of Smelterers and Hammersmiths.  Your thoughts on that make sense.  I own some hammered aluminum trays that belonged to my grandmother.  These are handmade and your thoughts on the Guilds brought those to mind-useful, everyday items that people would have used in their homes.  I wonder if they also worked as wheelwrights? Spotswood paid half their passage to the Virginia colony-although he did not know they were coming until they were here.  There is a lot about Spotswood in the Journal of the Board of Trade in London and also in the Executive Journals of the Council of Virginia.  He was a prolific letter writer.   One point--the First Colony people did not leave together as a group as has been portrayed.  Rev. Haeger left without permission under cover of darkness.  Hans Jacob Holtzklau left some days later with permission.  When the others left isn't known.  Possibly some left with Haeger or with Holtzklau-it simply isn't known.  I would like to know how and where they met up in London since we know that Haeger and Holtzklau did not leave together.  What ship did they travel on to the Virginia colony?  Were they actually intending to come to Virginia? Or was it to the Carolinas?  Remember de Graffenried founded New Bern NC.  Where did the First Colony land in the Virginia colony?  There are so many unanswered questions. Suzanne ________________________________ From: Cary Anderson <drcary@cox.net> To: germanna_colonies@rootsweb.com Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 5:02:33 PM Subject: [GERMANNA] Schuldiener & Fuhrmann & Guild of Smelters and Hammersmiths I have followed the discussion regarding the occupation of the First Colonist.  Several things have been discussed. 1.  Guild of Smelterers and Hammersmiths. Barb, you know I like to see the German spelling of the terms as it helps me learn more of what I need to look for.  I know Hammerschmied[t] and I believe Schmelzarbeitter is a Smelter.  There would be Guilds for these workers.  Even though they are distinct from each other, it appears both belong to a joint guild.  First, one was an apprentice.  When the apprentice became somewhat knowledgeable about various parts of the craft, then he was tested. If he could satisfy the masters of the trade, then he would become a journeyman or fellow of the craft. Eventually, he might become skilled enough to acquire all the secrets of the craft and would be entitled to be called a master of the trade.     The Guild of Smelterers and Hammersmiths were not miners.  They were the ones who took the iron ore and processed it into useable products.     Anyone with a strong back, and even if one didn't have such, could work the mines.  There were no secrets to protect there that would allow anyone to become a man of means.     I believe the diaries of Jean de la Fontaine that remarks about what he encountered at Germanna to be true.  I have not read that part personally, but am well-acquainted with some of his writings.      What I do not know  is "Did Spottswood pay the transportation from Germany to Virginia?"  Not being a descendant of the First Colony, I sometimes drift off in discussions about them. Miners.  I would imagine that most men in the Siegen area knew about the iron mines.  Most had probably from time to time dug up some of the ore.  Even a schoolmaster had time off and could use some extra money from time to time.  The easiest way in the Siegen area would be to work digging up the iron ore.  Then if someone came through promising to pay your way to the New World if you were involved in the iron industry, I am certain some "simple" miners would say, "I sure am, sign me up." Inferences can certainly be made if one knows what was going on in a particular area at a particular time.  In Arkansas following World War II and for many years after, school teachers hardly made a living wage.  Many schools went about 8 weeks in July, August, and early September.  Then school was out to get the crops in.  Cotton was labor intensive. I remember that many school teachers, especially those men married, went to the cotton fields to pick cotton.  Those who were good at it could make as much or more than the hourly wage of a school teacher!  Think to the seasonal occupations of the men in Siegen land.  Many would have periods of free time.  So most could have been involved in digging ore from time to time and probably were. 2.  Fuhrmann has a number of meanings.  Cassel's German-English dictionary, revised 1909, gives carrier, driver, coachman, wagoner.      Thode has freight handler; carrier, carter.     Bentz gives coachman and wagoner.     Webster gives carter as one who carries or conveys in or as if in a cart.     Webster has first for carrier as an individual or organization engaged in transporting passengers or goods for hire. 3. Schuldiener.  Thode gives it as school teacher, but for just diener he gives servant.  When working with German records, I always go to Thode first; however, I also check in various other works.      Cassel has for Schuldiener as a school porter.     Bentz has only diener and gives it as a servant.     Cassel has for diener: (man) servant, attendant; official; reverence, bow     Bahlow's Dictionary of German names has Diener as being Upper German.         Servant is the meaning.  He reports it first found as Conrad Diener, a friar,         in Freiburg 1304.  While a friar is a preaching monk, he is also a servant of God. Working in the 1600s and 1700s, it is very difficult for us today to grasp just what some of the words meant.  In fact, it was difficult from village to village to determine what the same word meant.  Bismark tried to put an end to that, but I understand from some of the folks I have visited with on the Germanna tours that words still mean different things to different folks.  That is true in English also.  How many have a spanner in their house. It takes a lot of effort to make sense out of some words even in different regions of the U.S.  Where I grew up in Arkansas, three speech pattern zones came together. Evening meant different things to different folks.  To some it was afternoon; to others it was after dark. So on and so forth. Two hours to hunt these meaning out and I am still not sure exactly what Suzanne will get from this.  But, keep digging.  I enjoy the discussion and hopefully I helped a bit. Cary     ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GERMANNA_COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message