Having studied linguistics, anthropology, archeology, social/cultural evolution, etc., for many of years, it is no mystery to me why some of our Germanna families might have some markers the same as people of "Jewish" descent. We all descend from people, thousands of years ago, from the Near-East/Mid-East, and it's no wonder that we might have the same markers as people who eventually became "Jewish", and, as a matter of fact, who eventually became "Arabic". We're from the same gene pool, c.10,000-2,000 years ago (maybe even 50,000-30,000 years ago), but that doesn't mean that any of our Germanna ancestors were "Jewish", as far as racial/ethnic identity or religion is concerned; we just have some markers that are the same from our ancient ancestors, before there was such an identity as "Jewish". If we were to compare the DNA of Germanna people to "Arabic" people, we would find many of the same marker matches, but does that mean our Germanna ancestors were "Arabic"? Of course not! You cannot compare DNA haplogroup markers while ignoring social/cultural influences. Read "The Seven Daughters of Eve" (referenced below) and read Dr. Peter A. Underhill's works on the "10 European Founding Fathers", and the books by Luigi Luca CAVALLI-SFORZA, listed below. Some books that you might read to help understand human history from pre-historic times to the present: ANTHONY, David W. - The Horse, The Wheel, And Language: How Bronze-Age Riders From The Steppes Shaped The Modern World (This one will tell you where your ancestors came from, how the languages of your ancestors came about, and how you are related to modern people who are "Jewish".) CAVALLI-SFORZA, Luigi Luca, & CAVALLI-SFORZA, Francesco - The Great Human Diasporas: The History of Diversity and Evolution CAVALLI-SFORZA, Luigi Luca - Genes, Peoples, And Languages (This one will explain the Y-Chromosome studies of our ancestors.) MITHEN, Steven - After The Ice: A Global Human History OLSON, Steve - Mapping Human History: Genes, Race, And Our Common Origins WADE, Nicholas - Before The Dawn: Recovering The Lost History of Our Ancestors SYKES, Bryan -The Seven Daughters Of Eve SYKES, Bryan - Saxons, Vikings, and Celts: The Genetic Roots of Britain And Ireland WELLS, Spencer - The Journey Of Man: A Genetic Odyssey I've read most of these books and am in the process of finishing the rest. Yes, I read several at once, switching back and forth to vary the topic. Plus, I have several more on the same topics, that I haven't even opened yet. I don't give a whit about the present discussion of whether or nor any of our Germanna ancestors were "Jewish", it's just that so many people writing on the subject are so totally ignorant of our human history. ======================================================= In reference to Clai Bachmann's post: "The Willhite Y-DNA haplogroup is R1b1b2a1a3. Haplogroup R1b1b2 is by far the most common group in western Europe and declines significantly to the east... This haplogroup is common among most of the primary groups who settled in Britain (Britons, Scots, Saxons, Vikings, Normans.) Haplogroup R1b1b2a1a3 is a small subclade of the preceding group. Outside of England, it has been found mainly in men from the Württemberg/Rhine Valley area of Germany (home of our ancestor). Present indications are that it arrived in England with the Anglo-Saxons. This subclade is defined by the presence of the marker L1/S26/DYS439(null). It occurs in less than half of a percent of R1b males, mainly with roots in the south and east of England and in Germany. I have seen other references that said in a sense our roots may have very well been Jewish and we were part of a people who fled persecution and settled in and around the Mainz area in Germany. Alls I know it awaits the results of further study." What is said about the Haplogroups is correct, but the inference that "our roots may have very well been Jewish..." is making assumptions in the absence of any sort of credible genetic data. If we trace back far enough, we'll find genetic data that puts us in the same families as those who eventually became "Jewish"; but, so what?! Damn It! If we go back far enough, we'll find connections to the present occupants of Africa -- does that mean we're "Africans"? Leave this "Jewish question" alone! Out Germanna ancestors were Christian for many, many centuries before immigrating from Germany. Who cares if they have "some" "Jewish" markers?! They were not "Jewish", either racially, ethnically, or culturally! If you go back far enough, you'll find, via DNA, that all the Kings and Queens of Europe have some "Jewish" markers in their DNA. If you could go back and sample Caesar's DNA, you'd probably find he had some Haplogroup markers in common with future "Jewish" people. In short, whether or not our Germanna ancestors share Haplogroup markers with "Jewish" people, those Germanna ancestors were not "Jewish", racially, culturally, or socially. Those Germanna ancestors never knew the word "Jewish" as it applied to their families! So, let's stop with this pseudo-analysis of DNA of "Jewishness". Do a lot of reading and then come back and argue the point. If you do nothing else, read David W. Anthony's book referenced above. It will set you straight. Sarge ======================================================= My Germanna Database at Rootsweb: http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?db=germanna My Germanna Website at Rootsweb: http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry/~george/index.html

George, I enjoyed this reading this, needless to say it covers a lot that need to be put out there for all of the germanna families to consider. I am a descendant of Adam Yager of Woodstock, Johh PW,etc. I was told by FTDNA that R1 is a narrow group, and was asked to give them permission to do further studies into this group, not that it would change anything, may not benefit me, but it could benefit future generation, in estabilashing their roots. In essence they are wanting go back thousadns of years to study this particular group, there sre chances that, yes therecould be markers that match other peoples be they Jewish celts,saxons,angles, jutes,vikings or whomever. I really dont care I just want to find matches for my own, I joined the Germanna project and was quite taken aback that there were not more people involved. for sure there are not enough Yager/Yeager's involved I think that I failed to inform you that I am clasified as being in haplogroup R1. We are hoping to find more males of the Piney Woods families to have their DNA tested to confirm FTDNA's findings, and further you may want to consult with Corlee Morris, and Jan Creek, to verify that what I written is authentic,do not want to mislead anyone. Vaughn Yeager     FTDNA'S findings. You may want to consult with Corlee Morris and Jan Creek to verify that what I have posted here is authentic. Vaughn Yeager --- On Sun, 6/27/10, George W. Durman <[email protected]> wrote: From: George W. Durman <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [GERMANNA] Y-DNA To: [email protected] Date: Sunday, June 27, 2010, 2:51 AM Having studied linguistics, anthropology, archeology, social/cultural evolution, etc., for many of years, it is no mystery to me why some of our Germanna families might have some markers the same as people of "Jewish" descent. We all descend from people, thousands of years ago, from the Near-East/Mid-East, and it's no wonder that we might have the same markers as people who eventually became "Jewish", and, as a matter of fact, who eventually became "Arabic".  We're from the same gene pool, c.10,000-2,000 years ago (maybe even 50,000-30,000 years ago), but that doesn't mean that any of our Germanna ancestors were "Jewish", as far as racial/ethnic identity or religion is concerned; we just have some markers that are the same from our ancient ancestors, before there was such an identity as "Jewish".  If we were to compare the DNA of Germanna people to "Arabic" people, we would find many of the same marker matches, but does that mean our Germanna ancestors were "Arabic"?  Of course not!  You cannot compare DNA haplogroup markers while ignoring social/cultural influences.  Read "The Seven Daughters of Eve" (referenced below) and read Dr. Peter A. Underhill's works on the "10 European Founding Fathers",  and the books by Luigi Luca CAVALLI-SFORZA, listed below. Some books that you might read to help understand human history from pre-historic times to the present: ANTHONY, David W. - The Horse, The Wheel, And Language:  How Bronze-Age Riders From The Steppes Shaped The Modern World (This one will tell you where your ancestors came from, how the languages of your ancestors came about, and how you are related to modern people who are "Jewish".) CAVALLI-SFORZA, Luigi Luca, & CAVALLI-SFORZA, Francesco - The Great Human Diasporas:  The History of Diversity and Evolution CAVALLI-SFORZA, Luigi Luca - Genes, Peoples, And Languages (This one will explain the Y-Chromosome studies of our ancestors.) MITHEN, Steven - After The Ice:  A Global Human History OLSON, Steve - Mapping Human History:  Genes, Race, And Our Common Origins WADE, Nicholas - Before The Dawn:  Recovering The Lost History of Our Ancestors SYKES, Bryan -The Seven Daughters Of Eve SYKES, Bryan - Saxons, Vikings, and Celts:  The Genetic Roots of Britain And Ireland WELLS, Spencer - The Journey Of Man:  A Genetic Odyssey I've read most of these books and am in the process of finishing the rest.  Yes, I read several at once, switching back and forth to vary the topic. Plus, I have several more on the same topics, that I haven't even opened yet.  I don't give a whit about the present discussion of whether or nor any of our Germanna ancestors were "Jewish", it's just that so many people writing on the subject are so totally ignorant of our human history. ======================================================= In reference to Clai Bachmann's post: "The Willhite Y-DNA haplogroup is R1b1b2a1a3. Haplogroup R1b1b2 is by far the most common group in western Europe and declines significantly to the east... This haplogroup is common among most of the primary groups who settled in Britain (Britons, Scots, Saxons, Vikings, Normans.) Haplogroup R1b1b2a1a3 is a small subclade of the preceding group.  Outside of England, it has been found mainly in men from the Württemberg/Rhine Valley area of Germany (home of our ancestor). Present indications are that it arrived in England with the Anglo-Saxons. This subclade is defined by the presence of the marker L1/S26/DYS439(null). It occurs in less than half of a percent of R1b males, mainly with roots in the south and east of England and in Germany.   I have seen other references that said in a sense our roots may have very well been Jewish and we were part of a people who fled persecution and settled in and around the Mainz area in Germany.  Alls I know it awaits the results of further study." What is said about the Haplogroups is correct, but the inference that "our roots may have very well been Jewish..." is making assumptions in the absence of any sort of credible genetic data.  If we trace back far enough, we'll find genetic data that puts us in the same families as those who eventually became "Jewish"; but, so what?!  Damn It!  If we go back far enough, we'll find connections to the present occupants of Africa -- does that mean we're "Africans"? Leave this "Jewish question" alone!  Out Germanna ancestors were Christian for many, many centuries before immigrating from Germany.  Who cares if they have "some" "Jewish" markers?!  They were not "Jewish", either racially, ethnically, or culturally!  If you go back far enough, you'll find, via DNA, that all the Kings and Queens of Europe have some "Jewish" markers in their DNA.  If you could go back and sample Caesar's DNA, you'd probably find he had some Haplogroup markers in common with future "Jewish" people. In short, whether or not our Germanna ancestors share Haplogroup markers with "Jewish" people, those Germanna ancestors were not "Jewish", racially, culturally, or socially.   Those Germanna ancestors never knew the word "Jewish" as it applied to their families! So, let's stop with this pseudo-analysis of DNA of "Jewishness".  Do a lot of reading and then come back and argue the point. If you do nothing else, read David W. Anthony's book referenced above.  It will set you straight. Sarge ======================================================= My Germanna Database at Rootsweb: http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?db=germanna My Germanna Website at Rootsweb: http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry/~george/index.html If you refer to a Germanna descendant, include a link to your on-line data. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message