We're having some e-mail issues in VA, sorry. I'm also behind as I lost all my drives recently. I'm back online now. My own instruction regarding baptism in the Roman Catholic Rites and this is recall from the 50's: There are 3 baptismal occasions: Baptism by Fire - martyred as Christian prior to Baptism by Water -persons might be cathecumens for years before baptism in the early Church. Currently, it takes from 9-12 months. Adult-converting Christians or the unbaptized are only taken into the Church once a year at the Easter Vigil. Baptism by Desire - this is typically 1.) a life threatening circumstance where the proper vessels and water are not available The only example I was given of late was battlefield requests. 2.) the sudden death of an unbaptized person that was a cathecumen seeking baptism may be considered for baptism. Those in conversion stage that have been baptized in another denomination are called candidates. They are considered baptized, if the correct form was observed. The correct form in their case is any water baptism done in the name of the Trinity. 3.) Rare- (known to me in the 50's) A deathbed or death of a non-Catholic spouse or parent when the priest affirms personal knowledge of the relative's expressed intent to join the Church. In this case, if refused by the priest, the family by right of internal forum* might consider the person baptized for burial. This issue no longer exists as the rule changed. Until Vatican II under Pope John, Vinginti Tres, around 1963, Catholics and Protestants we not allowed burial in the same cemetery. Thus, you see the problem for a mixed marriage. (Still frowned upon) Baptism by Water - Catholic rites today-use salt, blessed oils, blessed water by immersion, sprinkling or dipping and only in Triune tradition. Converting Christians from other denominations are re-baptized if they do not have a Triune baptism, which varies among them. Lutherans use a Triune baptism and would not be re-baptized if they have the certificate . All current Catholics should know how to perform a Triune baptism with water if confronted with an emergency. BABIES-The most common emergency would be a dying infant. I think someone discussed the baptism of a number of infants on the same day. Infants could have been ill or feared to fall ill due to pox or flu prompting immediate baptism. For years nurses and doctors, who are or are not Catholic, have performed Triune baptisms with water for dying infants given the mother or the father was Catholic. You would also need to check to see if it was Easter. Healthy babies born close enough to Easter may have been reserved by parents for this ancient honor. Hoping at the same time, the mother could be there. Another possibility is no Reverend was there. Upon arrival of one, all babies born in the interim would be pressing business.END OF BABIES Anyone believed to be dying and is requesting baptism may be baptized with water in Triune form. If one survives such a baptism, the baptism is irritis (imperfect). Then, it would performed by a priest later. * Internal Forum means that a person, having been properly informed about Catholic Dogma, reports to a priest that they do not accept the Church's teaching on a matter. This remains sealed with that priest. Neither are allowed to divulge to others. It is not permitted in the public forum . Members are not obliged to report unless a church practice demands. Members have recorded: Baptism, First Confession, First Communion, Confirmation, any Sacramental Marriage in any denomination and burial rites. Marriages validated by civil authorities have no standing. In Europe many couples choose civil marriage and decide when to make marriage sacramental. Updates stay with your baptismal folder as the official record. If you move, your new parish will want your home parish record and send future pertinent data to that parish. What you run across with priests varies. For instance, some may insist that you not teach, read from the lectern, serve the altar or in leadership. The conservative sees your choice as leaving the public forum. Others never say a word. Still others cherry pick. Members with these notes have double confidentiality. Catholics are obliged to Confess and receive Communion at Easter. A majority no longer confess nor refrain from birth control. A good number seek divorce w/remarriage. Some have abortions. Most receive communion frequently. Democracies have free citizens with more education. They are wired to use rights. Internal forum mirrors rights. You better be ready to meet your Maker. You are cruising against canonical advice. What this generation thinks- hierarchical and magisterial authority are both important. The clergy admit that history repeatedly shows the magisterium (lay people) has often led reform. They perceive this as the Spirit moving among the people. Part of the hierarchical role is to discern when the Spirit has spoken and act to revise. It's too bad this was not understood centuries ago. Martin Luther and his followers would have reformed the Church in a few generations. That's really a short stick in a 2000 years institution. The Papacy may have been different. Without absolute power corruption is less likely. I guess the Church history varies little from its times except, perhaps in its purest form early on. I'm probably being too idealistic. Keep in mind internal forum respects Scripture. You cannot opt out of belief in the Resurrection. Internal forum applies to parts of canonical law. The example of segregated burial illustrates what a Catholic might not accept. Now the Church does allow it. So that internal instinct was accurate. I'm trying to share to shed light on historical and current religious practices. Before Reformation, it is more likely than not some rule is in play. If you feel this is tedious in modern times, it gives you a sense of the absolute control of the Church over all Christians. I have a friend who is a priest. He has studied all over the world for almost 40 years. It's taken that long to master the first 400 hundred years of the Church's history. Many rules abound which I will not share any further. If you should meet a traditional Catholic, please don't challenge them. They have the right (duty in forum) to strictly adhere to Ch urch Dogma. Observe for yourself. Most Catholic Churches have websites, check out some rural ones. If the bulletin is posted, you are not likely to see a priest scheduled to sit in a confessional more than a hour weekly. That will be before Saturday vigil mass and only further by appointment. Ours is down to 30 minutes. We are a small parish that worships only 1000 a week. In large cities, a church might worship 20,000 -30,000 a week. They just schedule masses all day long to serve them all. You might not notice the ratio there. There is no Easter week that I have seen with lines around the blocks. Some of us find that sinful. Others don't. I'm not taking sides. I'm trying to talk about the complexity of delving deep into time, when the Church ruled the World. Performing coronations of kings, selling indulgences and waivers to nobility and so much more, these created a convoluted heritage for us all . We own it because we need to rely on Church records to learn about our families. Regardless of the major issues, most records were people like us. Practices at the local parish were somewhat unchanged. I suspect different priests recorded from minimal to broad details. Our Church has less than 70 years in its new era. We are like a time capsule with clues. Now that we are free to have a dialogue. We all can share things that may help sort out the circumstances of our ancestors. Mother's presence at baptism : I am speculating here based on personal knowledge. Our parish enrolled several immigrant Italian families. These families refrained from a mother at her child's baptism. At that time most infants were baptized within a week. It was rare for an infant to age pass two weeks without the sacrament. The reason the Italian mothers did not attend was the observance of ancient temple law. A woman that is bleeding is unclean. The same applied to their monthly friend. The child is baptized with a patron saint's name (the Latin root would suggest the father's choice). A male and a female stand in for the parents, known as godparents. A reception is held later. The mother is highly honored and pampered then. The Greek Orthodox and the Roman Rite are the Church. They are brethren that agreed to disagree in 1,000 AD. They still receive each other's members. Not for intercommunication, I mean they accept transfers. Under certain rules, they may transfer clergy. Now you can see why my friend had to travel the world to study the first 400 years. The two could be found on German/Austria borders. The differences might cause a puzzle HISTORY STOPS HERE-PERSONAL STORY AND QUESTIONS FOLLOW When I was a child, I was always addressed by my baptismal name at Church. (In my case, Johanna; French daughters, Joan, etc.) There were no nicknames in our school either. Our given saint's name was it. They weren't concerned with names again until Confirmation. You chose your own patron then and the Bishop called you by your new name. So my full name is Johanna Lore Rita Wilhite Allyn. (St. Rita, patron of the impossible) Two other siblings also chose Rita. My mother says Rita had the best picture. I think "impossible" is in the DNA. Until I joined the list, I didn't think much about these naming patterns. My parents stuck a deal. My father was committed to choosing both names for me. My mother would have the whole name for the next child. Well that didn't happen. He got half of the next child, and the next, and the next. Then a boy arrived and he persuaded both names again. But, this was a true compromise. When the next arrived, my mother's side played the King Solomon card. She finally got her dream. Her special, unique name was in place. How was she to know that a famous name was emerging in the USA, Jacqueline Kennedy. Her precious baby forever would be called Jackie. A new flock of Jackies filled school, camp, etc. rolls. The constant question sang. "Now, which Jackie did that?" Her mother said. Well, at least everyone knows that Jackie is Catholic. What saint is that anyway? Next time I may shed some light on why Cary's Germans appear in far flung places; and, a surprising family tale which, I opine, credits Germans with preservation of the Union. Southerners brace yourselves unless you already know of course. If anyone's on top of these two and has time, jump in. Don"t wait on me. Is this the site where I heard about pig wars? My maternal grandmother had pig rituals that might go back to that. Her grandfather was a humdinger. My mother says. You can tell a German. But, you can't tell them much. So if you're not in the mood to listen, I understand!!! jwa From: "johanna allyn" <johanna.allyn@comcast.net> To: "germanna colonies" <germanna_colonies@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2011 4:24:47 PM Subject: Baptisms thread