It was just baptism practices that I swore not to write about. I have to chime in here. George, you and Virginia, are very correct in your thinking. Sometimes we seem to disagree in the use of vocabulary. Serfs were originally the same as slaves, gradually and by the time of Martin Luther, the Germanic serfs were call peasants in the English language. Remember the Peasants' War [Deutscher Bauernkrieg} that failed. Peasant in the 1900 edition of Cassell's German dictionary has the follows: der Bauer, Landmann. The second definition has bauerlich, lannlich which is the adj. form. then a second part of the second definition has bauerlicher means proprietor. I had just acquired the dictionary when I found out that my Gable family had been serfs on a Monastery right at Offenbach, sw of Lauterecken. Wollfstein is the larger town southeast of Offenbach. This was about 1738. The document exists where they went through a legal system to be declared free persons before they could get permission to leave in the early 1700s. Within the document it is clear that they were bound to the land. They arrived safely in American and now have tens of thousands of descendents. They had possessions to sell, apparently, to pay the passage. It was a full year from the time they left until they were in Pennsylvania. I recall being taught in high school by a excellent history teacher. He told us serfs were bound to the land and could not leave without permission of the noble man to whom they were bound. However, he also taught us that few were given permission until a few hundred years ago. Then he said slaves were bound to their master and could be bought and sold, but serfs were bound to the land where they lived. Even when the nobleman lost a battle and lost his "little kingdom" the serfs were still bound to the land. The serfs of Russia were some of the last serfs to be freed. Cary ----- Original Message ----- From: "George W. Durman" <GermannaResearch@comcast.net> To: <germanna_colonies@rootsweb.com>; "kshepard" <menotyou17@yahoo.com>; <Germans-VA@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2011 4:06 AM Subject: Re: [GERMANNA] Baptism on day of birth > > Ginnie, I think you are on the right track. Our German ancestors who > left what is now Germany certainly weren't destitute. If they were, they > certainly couldn't afford to come to America. Most were artisans of > some sort and had the wherewithal to afford the trip. > > Sarge > > At 9/5/2011 02:29 PM Monday, Virginia Nuta wrote: > *********START OF ORIGINAL MESSAGE TEXT********* > >Hi Cary-- > > > >Allow me just to venture a thought abut the social status of the emigrants > >from Germany. I have long wondered how a "serf" would get the wherewithall > >to travel down the Rhine, pay all the tolls, and get the ship to England -- > >often with a family in tow -- even if the plan was to pay for passage by > >being indentured. Young men, maybe, who could work their passage -- young > >men from Schwaigern have been described as slipping out during the night -- > >, but families? > > > >I wonder if the families that left weren't a little higher on the scale. > >Small farmers who had their own land to sell; artisans who perhaps had a > >house, a loom, some tools to sell. The immigrant John George Schaible, for > >example, was a weaver. (See Patricia Lowe's article about him in the > >September issue of the GRG Journal, www.germannacolonies.org.) > > > >A.G. Roeber in his book "Palatines, Liberty and Property: German Lutherans > >in Colonial British America," (Baltimore: Johns Hopkins University Press, > >2003, 2008), describes inventories of the estates of villagers and small > >towns in Wurttemberg, the Kraichgau area, and the Palatine. He says that > >books were present in almost every inventory in Wurttemberg, although > >slightly less so in the Kraichgau and fewer in the Palatinate. He also > >describes the towns of the wine-growing areas that our ancestors lived in as > >being fairly prosperous. But the small holders and the small artisans could > >be pressed by bad weather and population growth, and they had to struggle to > >maintain themselves. I would think that this class of people would be more > >likely to produce our immigrant families than a landless serf. > > > >Just a thought--I have had a hard time finding books about the material and > >social culture of SW Germany, at that time, that are in English. Would love > >to hear from others. > > > >Ginnie > > > > > > > >-------------------------------------------------- > >From: "Cary Anderson" <drcary@cox.net> > >Sent: Monday, September 05, 2011 1:15 PM > >To: "kshepard" <menotyou17@yahoo.com>; <germanna_colonies@rootsweb.com> > >Subject: Re: [GERMANNA] Baptism on day of birth > > > >> Rarely, was the child not baptized in the parish church is the info I've > >> gained from my close friends who are genealogical and historical experts > >> in > >> Germany. In severe cases and with clout, it was occasionally done. It > >> was > >> in Bismarck's days when the rights of the nobility to basically "own" the > >> peasants was abolished. Remember the last king of independent country of > >> Bavarian? Ludwig the Mad! He bankrupted a lot of the nobility. You can > >> imagine what happened to the peasantry! > >> > >> Remember, these folks that left Germany for America and elsewhere were > >> usually quite poor serf's bound to the local baron or count! In many > >> cases > >> they were looked upon as just a bit about the cows, pigs, hogs, etc. > >> > >> In Wittenberg, it was in 1738 when the ban on leaving without permission > >> was > >> lifted for the peasants. > >> > >> Few folks leave a good life to venture to the unknown. That was even more > >> so back into he 1700s. > >> > >> I, myself, have mental pictures based on the very nice homes, etc., seen > >> in > >> the villages of Germany. One must remember the Marshall plan was also > >> used > >> to modernized homes outside and in that were not destroyed in WWII. > >> > >> I am so glad that this list is so much more active that the past couple > >> years. > >> > >> Keep it up folks. > >> > >> Cary > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "kshepard" <menotyou17@yahoo.com> > >> To: <germanna_colonies@rootsweb.com> > >> Sent: Monday, September 05, 2011 9:17 AM > >> Subject: Re: [GERMANNA] Baptism on day of birth > >> > >> > >> I was baptized on my day of birth due to being so sickly and my chance of > >> survival was slim. Two of my older brothers had the same condition and > >> both > >> died within 1 and 3 days of birth. I would say that the fact that the > >> mother > >> did not attend may be an indicator that the mother and child has a rough > >> time of it, and that their religous beliefs were that a person needed to > >> be > >> baptised to have entry to Heaven... > >> > >> Kathy > >> TN Germanna Reunion - Sept. 9-11 > >> http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~george/easttennesseereunion2011.html > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> GERMANNA_COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > >> TN Germanna Reunion - Sept. 9-11 > >> http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~george/easttennesseereunion2011.html > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> GERMANNA_COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > >TN Germanna Reunion - Sept. 9-11 http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~george/easttennesseereunion2011.html > >------------------------------- > >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GERMANNA_COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > **********END OF ORIGINAL MESSAGE TEXT*********** > > My Germanna Database at Rootsweb: > http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?db=germanna > > My Germanna Website at Rootsweb: > http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~george/index.html > > TN Germanna Reunion - Sept. 9-11 http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~george/easttennesseereunion2011.html > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GERMANNA_COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message