I'm resending also. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sherry Nay" <snay2@verizon.net> To: <germanna_colonies@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 11:04 AM Subject: Re: [GERMANNA] Fw: Questions about guilds in Siegen area > There is a wonderful book "German Home Towns 1648-1871" by Mack Walker. > There is a chapter on Guilds which opens with a story about a man who was > in a guild who wanted to marry. His intended's father had been born out of > wedlock. This could mean that the children of the marriage might not be > eligible for guild membership! I highly recommend reading this book - at > least that chapter. One would probably have to get it through > inter-library loan. > Sherry Nay > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Suzanne Matson" <holtzclaw.research@yahoo.com> > To: "Germanna Colonies" <GERMANNA_COLONIES@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 10:47 AM > Subject: [GERMANNA] Fw: Questions about guilds in Siegen area > > >>I am resending this because it apparently never came through for unknown >>reasons-- >> >> Suzanne Collins Matson >> >> >> >> ----- Forwarded Message ---- >> From: Suzanne Matson <holtzclaw.research@yahoo.com> >> To: Germanna Colonies <GERMANNA_COLONIES@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 9:08:30 AM >> Subject: Questions about guilds >> >> >> Has anyone done any research on guilds in the Siegen area? >> >> Were they organized like the Dutch guilds or the British guilds (livery >> companies today)? >> >> Did membership have benefits such as care when ill or no longer able to >> work or confer social status? >> >> Did membership pass automatically to male direct line descendants? >> >> Was the control of the members of the guild limited to the town limits of >> any given town? >> >> Suzanne Collins Matson >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> GERMANNA_COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >

There is a wonderful book "German Home Towns 1648-1871" by Mack Walker. There is a chapter on Guilds which opens with a story about a man who was in a guild who wanted to marry. His intended's father had been born out of wedlock. This could mean that the children of the marriage might not be eligible for guild membership! I highly recommend reading this book - at least that chapter. One would probably have to get it through inter-library loan. Sherry Nay ----- Original Message ----- From: "Suzanne Matson" <holtzclaw.research@yahoo.com> To: "Germanna Colonies" <GERMANNA_COLONIES@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 10:47 AM Subject: [GERMANNA] Fw: Questions about guilds in Siegen area >I am resending this because it apparently never came through for unknown >reasons-- > > Suzanne Collins Matson > > > > ----- Forwarded Message ---- > From: Suzanne Matson <holtzclaw.research@yahoo.com> > To: Germanna Colonies <GERMANNA_COLONIES@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 9:08:30 AM > Subject: Questions about guilds > > > Has anyone done any research on guilds in the Siegen area? > > Were they organized like the Dutch guilds or the British guilds (livery > companies today)? > > Did membership have benefits such as care when ill or no longer able to > work or confer social status? > > Did membership pass automatically to male direct line descendants? > > Was the control of the members of the guild limited to the town limits of > any given town? > > Suzanne Collins Matson > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMANNA_COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

BC Holtzclaw does take note of the various Guilds that the people he was researching belonged to. I have seen note throughout his publications of the younger male member of a family becoming a member of a Guild which meant that his father was probably dead. I agree that more research needs to be done about the German guilds. Perhaps we could ask some of our German members to respond or perhaps I can contact members of the Heimatvereins. Good idea! Barb Price In a message dated 11/10/2008 07:48:31 Pacific Standard Time, holtzclaw.research@yahoo.com writes: I am resending this because it apparently never came through for unknown reasons-- Suzanne Collins Matson ----- Forwarded Message ---- From: Suzanne Matson <holtzclaw.research@yahoo.com> To: Germanna Colonies <GERMANNA_COLONIES@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 9:08:30 AM Subject: Questions about guilds Has anyone done any research on guilds in the Siegen area? Were they organized like the Dutch guilds or the British guilds (livery companies today)? Did membership have benefits such as care when ill or no longer able to work or confer social status? Did membership pass automatically to male direct line descendants? Was the control of the members of the guild limited to the town limits of any given town? Suzanne Collins Matson ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GERMANNA_COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message **************AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and all other Holiday needs. Search Now. (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1212792382x1200798498/aol?redir=http://searchblog.aol.com/2008/11/04/happy-holidays-from -aol-search/?ncid=emlcntussear00000001)

The location of guild records today would also be helpful.  The British guild records are stored at Guildhall Library in London and I wonder if Germany has something similar.  I haven't located a similar library in Germany yet. Suzanne Collins Matson ________________________________ From: "RockCatt@aol.com" <RockCatt@aol.com> To: germanna_colonies@rootsweb.com; GERMANNA_COLONIES@rootsweb.com Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 10:55:52 AM Subject: Re: [GERMANNA] Fw: Questions about guilds in Siegen area BC Holtzclaw does  take note of the various Guilds that the people he  was researching belonged to. I have seen note throughout his publications of the younger male member of  a family becoming a member of a Guild which meant that his father was probably  dead. I agree that more research needs to be done about the German guilds.  Perhaps we could ask some of our German members to respond or perhaps I can  contact members of the Heimatvereins.  Good idea! Barb Price In a message dated 11/10/2008 07:48:31 Pacific Standard Time,  holtzclaw.research@yahoo.com writes: I am  resending this because it apparently never came through for unknown  reasons-- Suzanne Collins Matson ----- Forwarded Message  ---- From: Suzanne Matson <holtzclaw.research@yahoo.com> To:  Germanna Colonies <GERMANNA_COLONIES@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday,  November 10, 2008 9:08:30 AM Subject: Questions about guilds Has  anyone done any research on guilds in the Siegen area? Were they  organized like the Dutch guilds or the British guilds (livery companies  today)? Did membership have benefits such as care when ill or no longer  able to work or confer social status? Did membership pass automatically  to male direct line descendants? Was the control of the members of the  guild limited to the town limits of any given town? Suzanne Collins  Matson ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list,  please send an email to GERMANNA_COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word  'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the  message **************AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and all other Holiday needs. Search Now. (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1212792382x1200798498/aol?redir=http://searchblog.aol.com/2008/11/04/happy-holidays-from -aol-search/?ncid=emlcntussear00000001) ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GERMANNA_COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I am resending this because it apparently never came through for unknown reasons-- Suzanne Collins Matson ----- Forwarded Message ---- From: Suzanne Matson <holtzclaw.research@yahoo.com> To: Germanna Colonies <GERMANNA_COLONIES@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 9:08:30 AM Subject: Questions about guilds Has anyone done any research on guilds in the Siegen area? Were they organized like the Dutch guilds or the British guilds (livery companies today)? Did membership have benefits such as care when ill or no longer able to work or confer social status? Did membership pass automatically to male direct line descendants? Was the control of the members of the guild limited to the town limits of any given town? Suzanne Collins Matson

Has anyone done any research on guilds in the Siegen area? Were they organized like the Dutch guilds or the British guilds (livery companies today)? Did membership have benefits such as care when ill or no longer able to work or confer social status? Did membership pass automatically to male direct line descendants? Was the control of the members of the guild limited to the town limits of any given town? Suzanne Collins Matson

My thoughts exactly! There may not have been "miners" in the First Colony, but I can assure you that many of them had the mining industry in their blood. Jacob Holtzclaw's ancestors were involved in mining, mines and iron hammers from the early 1400's as were the Fischbachs. I think that what we had with the 1714 Immigrants was a community, if you will, with carpenters, a blacksmith, a school teacher, a pastor, farmers along with their involvement with the mining industry, and their ancestor's involvement. Jacob Holtzclaw's father was a schoolteacher, but he was also a member of the Guild of Smelterers and Hammersmiths, so was his grandfather. I also think that we have to keep in mind that being in the iron industry, such as a hammersmith, was probably not the only job that they had as they could not always work at that job. I was conducting research a couple of years ago about Buschhuetten, the Iron Hammer owned by Jacob Holtzclaw's ancestors from 1486 to 1746, that's 260 years! The hammer did not operate every day, in fact, its operation depended on enough water, enough charcoal, enough pig iron and enough money. The operation of the hammer could also be limited by the Prince in power, he controlled the number of hammer days. If he thought that the hammer was requiring too many trees to be cut down to operate the blower, he would limit the number of days of operation. Hence, many of the ironworks owners were farmers, too, which balanced the economy of the area as well. Here's the list of the men from the First Colony, their occupations and their involvement with the mining industry: Brombach/Brumback, Melchior/Melcherd, b. 1685 at Musen (came as a bachelor) I'm not sure of his occupation, but his grandfather was a carpenter and joiner. Cuntze/Koontz, Jost b. 1674 at Nierderndorf Member of the Steelsmiths and Toolmakers Guild of Ferndorf. His father was a toolmaker and so were his 3 brothers. Fischbach/Fishback, Philip b. 1661 at Seelbach--not sure of his occupation, but his ancestors owned Hammers in Nierderndorf from the 1400's, Tyl van Fispe, his earliest ancestor and they were active in the iron industry for centuries. Haeger/Häger, Rev. Johann Henrich b. 1644 at Antzhausen Heide/Heite/Hitt, Peter/Deiter b. ca 1680-83 at Rehbach--occupation unkown Hoffmann/Hoffman/Huffman, Johannes b. 1692 at Eisern (came as a bachelor to VA) Eisern--not sure of his occupation, but father was a fuhrmann, an exporter of iron goods and his ancestors were all admitted as smelterers to the Guild of Smelterers and Hammersmiths. -BC Holtzclaw states that this means that they were part owners of a smelter or ironworks, possibly the iron works at Eisern Holzklau/Holtzclaw, Hans Jacob b. 1683 at Trupbach-- His occupation was schoolteacher, but his father was first admitted to the Guild of Smelterers and Hammersmiths in 1664, later he quit this job and became a schoolmaster. Jacob's grandfather, and several of his uncles, were members of the Guild of H ammersmiths and Smelterers, and he was also a schoolteacher. Jacob's grandmother, Hebel Muess, was descended from the Busch and Flender families, associated with iron and ironworks from the 1400's, his ancestor, Gotthard Busch, was "one of the wealthiest and most enterprising iron-masters of the 16th century in Nassau-Siegen" per BC Holtzclaw. He's also descended from the Patt and Fick families, also associated with the iron industry from the 1300's. Kemper/Camper, Johannes b. 1692 at Muesen (came as a bachelor)--Not sure of his occupation, but his father was a church elder at Musen and his grandfather was a smith as was his great grandfather and his ancestors prior to that. Their name was Schmith, Smyt and Schmidt because of their trade. Merdten/Martin, Johnan Jost/John Joseph b. 1691 at Muesen --I don't know his occupation, but his grandfather, Jacob Merten, was an Associate Justice of the Court of the Mines. Several of his ancestors were connected with the customs service. Otterbach/Utterback, Johann Hermann b. 1664 at Trupbach--His occupation was Fuhrmann, or a middle man in the export of iron. His grandfather was a member of the Guild of Smelterers and Hammersmiths as a Huettenknecht, a handy man around the forges. Richter/Rector, Johann Jacob b. 1674 at Trupbach--Admitted to the Guild of Steelsmiths and Toolmakers of the Freudenberg District as a Toolmaker on 7 Jan 1712 per BC Holtzclaw. Spielmann/Spilman, Johannes b. 1679 at Oberschelden--I'm not sure of his occupation, but his ancestor was a window maker. Weber/Weaver, Johann Henrich b. 1667 at Eisern--I'm not sure of his occupation Half of the First Colony had some involvement with the iron industry and like I said before, they may not have been actual miners, but I can't help but believe that they knew the industry. Barb Price In a message dated 11/9/2008 19:42:43 Pacific Standard Time, wwallace@muskingum.edu writes: Suszanne, How do you understand Hans Jacob's ancestor's connection to the Haardt Ironworks (Ancestry and Desendants ..Pg.230 ff)? I am not suggesting that the First Colonists were miners, just that ironworks appear to be a family business back several generations especially on the maternal side. Julie ----- Original Message Follows ----- > > I am not throwing Albrecht, Alexander Spotswood or de > Graffenried into the trash. I don't think John is > either-but he can answer for himself. > > Albrecht may be the only one who could have claimed to be > a miner. I doubt Spotswood ever did any mining work on > his own. No doubt he was looking for silver-but with > others supplying the labor. My understanding of John's > statements was that the First Colony people themselves > were not miners based on the known information about their > livelihoods before their arrival in the Virginia Colony. > > Speaking specifically of the Holtzclaw/Holzklau family: > Hans Jacob Holtzklau was a school teacher as were his > grandfather, father and brother Johannes. Going back into > the records at the Munster archives, it seems the > Holzklaus were farmers and/or overseers on land owned by a > Catholic convent near Oberholzklau, plus a few who were > beer sellers and bakers. The direct line ancestors seemed > to be in other jobs than smelting iron ore. > > Has anyone researched the amount of iron ore produced in > the Siegen area by year? It might be interesting to > discover when the ironworks were most active. > > Suzanne Colliins Matson > > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Craig Kilby <persisto@earthlink.net> > To: germanna_colonies@rootsweb.com > Sent: Sunday, November 9, 2008 12:45:59 PM > Subject: [GERMANNA] First Colony Not Miners? > > Whoah! Back up the bus! > > I seem to recall John Blankenbaker, some years ago on this > same list, in one of his thousand + notes, gave a lot of > thought and research into this very topic, particularly > about Joseph Albrecht, Gov. Spottswood and the imposter > "Baron" de Graffenried, (the founder of New Bern, > NC)....are we now throwing all of this into the trash? > > Craig Kilby > > On Nov 9, 2008, at 3:00 AM, > germanna_colonies-request@rootsweb.com wrote: > > > Subject: Re: [GERMANNA] Miners in the First Colony? > > (Part II) To: germanna_colonies@rootsweb.com > > Message-ID: > > <510931.52431.qm@web59503.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > > Are the sources Willis Kemper used known? > > > > Rev. J. Silor Garrison gave the same information in his > > book History of the Reformed Church in Virginia, > > 1714-1940 which was published in 1948.? Rev. Garrison > did not give his sources. > > > Since no one has responded, perhaps there is no proof > > that they were miners. > > > > Suzanne Collins Matson > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: "john.blankenbaker@comcast.net" > > john.blankenbaker@comcast.net Sent: Wednesday, November > > 5, 2008 6:48:05 AM Subject: Re: [GERMANNA] Miners in the > First Colony? (Part II) > > > Suzanne, > > Willis Kemper really started the ball rolling with the > > idea that the First Colony consisted of miners. > > > > -- > > John.Blankenbaker@comcast.net > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > To contact the GERMANNA_COLONIES list administrator, > > send an email to GERMANNA_COLONIES-admin@rootsweb.com. > > > > To post a message to the GERMANNA_COLONIES mailing list, > > send an email to GERMANNA_COLONIES@rootsweb.com. > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > GERMANNA_COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word > > "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and > > the body of the email with no additional text. > > > > > > End of GERMANNA_COLONIES Digest, Vol 3, Issue 313 > > ************************************************* > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMANNA_COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the > body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMANNA_COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the > body of the message bill and julie wallace ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GERMANNA_COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message **************AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and all other Holiday needs. Search Now. (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1212792382x1200798498/aol?redir=http://searchblog.aol.com/2008/11/04/happy-holidays-from -aol-search/?ncid=emlcntussear00000001)

Suszanne, How do you understand Hans Jacob's ancestor's connection to the Haardt Ironworks (Ancestry and Desendants ..Pg.230 ff)? I am not suggesting that the First Colonists were miners, just that ironworks appear to be a family business back several generations especially on the maternal side. Julie ----- Original Message Follows ----- > > I am not throwing Albrecht, Alexander Spotswood or de > Graffenried into the trash. I don't think John is > either-but he can answer for himself. > > Albrecht may be the only one who could have claimed to be > a miner. I doubt Spotswood ever did any mining work on > his own. No doubt he was looking for silver-but with > others supplying the labor. My understanding of John's > statements was that the First Colony people themselves > were not miners based on the known information about their > livelihoods before their arrival in the Virginia Colony. > > Speaking specifically of the Holtzclaw/Holzklau family: > Hans Jacob Holtzklau was a school teacher as were his > grandfather, father and brother Johannes. Going back into > the records at the Munster archives, it seems the > Holzklaus were farmers and/or overseers on land owned by a > Catholic convent near Oberholzklau, plus a few who were > beer sellers and bakers. The direct line ancestors seemed > to be in other jobs than smelting iron ore. > > Has anyone researched the amount of iron ore produced in > the Siegen area by year? It might be interesting to > discover when the ironworks were most active. > > Suzanne Colliins Matson > > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Craig Kilby <persisto@earthlink.net> > To: germanna_colonies@rootsweb.com > Sent: Sunday, November 9, 2008 12:45:59 PM > Subject: [GERMANNA] First Colony Not Miners? > > Whoah! Back up the bus! > > I seem to recall John Blankenbaker, some years ago on this > same list, in one of his thousand + notes, gave a lot of > thought and research into this very topic, particularly > about Joseph Albrecht, Gov. Spottswood and the imposter > "Baron" de Graffenried, (the founder of New Bern, > NC)....are we now throwing all of this into the trash? > > Craig Kilby > > On Nov 9, 2008, at 3:00 AM, > germanna_colonies-request@rootsweb.com wrote: > > > Subject: Re: [GERMANNA] Miners in the First Colony? > > (Part II) To: germanna_colonies@rootsweb.com > > Message-ID: > > <510931.52431.qm@web59503.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > > Are the sources Willis Kemper used known? > > > > Rev. J. Silor Garrison gave the same information in his > > book History of the Reformed Church in Virginia, > > 1714-1940 which was published in 1948.? Rev. Garrison > did not give his sources. > > > Since no one has responded, perhaps there is no proof > > that they were miners. > > > > Suzanne Collins Matson > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: "john.blankenbaker@comcast.net" > > john.blankenbaker@comcast.net Sent: Wednesday, November > > 5, 2008 6:48:05 AM Subject: Re: [GERMANNA] Miners in the > First Colony? (Part II) > > > Suzanne, > > Willis Kemper really started the ball rolling with the > > idea that the First Colony consisted of miners. > > > > -- > > John.Blankenbaker@comcast.net > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > To contact the GERMANNA_COLONIES list administrator, > > send an email to GERMANNA_COLONIES-admin@rootsweb.com. > > > > To post a message to the GERMANNA_COLONIES mailing list, > > send an email to GERMANNA_COLONIES@rootsweb.com. > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > GERMANNA_COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word > > "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and > > the body of the email with no additional text. > > > > > > End of GERMANNA_COLONIES Digest, Vol 3, Issue 313 > > ************************************************* > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMANNA_COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the > body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMANNA_COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the > body of the message bill and julie wallace

Julia, There is a connection to ironworking in the 1400's and 1500's through mainly the maternal line.  (I suppose you could say that in some cases the Holtzklau men married well.)  By 1714 when Hans Jacob Holtzklau emigrated to the Virginia colony, I don't think that ironworking was a major factor in the lives of the Holtzklau line from which Hans Jacob descended.  The church records give Hans Henrich Holtzklau's occupation as school teacher as well as his father Johann/Johannes Holtzklau.  I haven't researched the other children of Johann/Johannes Holtzklau and wife Hebel although BC Holtzclaw states that two of them were involved with ironworking. My opinion is that the First Colony group was not involved in ironworking, mining, etc., as an occupation in their homeland although there is information that supports their ancestors were involved in some way in ironworking or mining.  It seems that the Holtzklaus who remained in the Weidenau area were the ones who continued ironworking. I also don't believe that Gov. Spotswood was looking for miners.  Reference the April 28th 1714 report in the Executive Journals, Council of Colonial Virginia.  Gov. Spotswood reported to the Council that "sundry Germans to the number of forty two men women and children who were invited by Baron de Graffinried (sic) are now arrived,"  and he proposed to place them on the frontier as a barrier between the Indians and the English.  I would be interested to hear how others interpret the church records as well as what BC Holtzclaw has written on the subject. Suzanne Collins Matson   ________________________________ From: William and Julia Wallace <wwallace@muskingum.edu> To: germanna_colonies@rootsweb.com Sent: Sunday, November 9, 2008 10:41:51 PM Subject: Re: [GERMANNA] First Colony Not Miners? Suszanne, How do you understand Hans Jacob's ancestor's connection to the Haardt Ironworks (Ancestry and Desendants ..Pg.230 ff)? I am not suggesting that the First Colonists were miners, just that ironworks appear to be a family business back several generations especially on the maternal side. Julie

John Blankbaker's statement about the mis-statement, it seems, that all the Germmana immigrants were miners, drove me to google.com I found this URL, which is of interest to me because of the listing of some Kempers/Campers who intermarried with some of the same families as the Utterbacks/Otterbachs. _http://www.flentje.com/genealogy/index.htm#otterbac.htm_ (http://www.flentje.com/genealogy/index.htm#otterbac.htm) Remove any punctuation fore and aft which may have been added on the internet before pasting in your search box. E.W.Wallace **************AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and all other Holiday needs. Search Now. (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1212792382x1200798498/aol?redir=http://searchblog.aol.com/2008/11/04/happy-holidays-from -aol-search/?ncid=emlcntussear00000001)

Whoah! Back up the bus! I seem to recall John Blankenbaker, some years ago on this same list, in one of his thousand + notes, gave a lot of thought and research into this very topic, particularly about Joseph Albrecht, Gov. Spottswood and the imposter "Baron" de Graffenried, (the founder of New Bern, NC)....are we now throwing all of this into the trash? Craig Kilby On Nov 9, 2008, at 3:00 AM, germanna_colonies-request@rootsweb.com wrote: > > > There are two ways to receive the DIGEST Mode for this Mailing List: > > 1) PLAIN TEXT-Plain Text Digests are sent to users with all posts > listed in one long email. This is the default when a user > subscribes to the Digest Mode. > > 2) MIME-For most users MIME Digests will appear with all posts as > individual attachments. If you are receiving in Plain Text and > want your Digest in MIME, please write me directly at > GERMANNA_COLONIES-admin@rootsweb.com. > > ############### > > When replying to a Digest message, quote only the specific message > to which you are replying, removing the rest of the Digest from > your reply. > > Also, remember to change the subject of your reply so that it > coincides with the message subject to which you are replying. That > is, if you change the subject, CHANGE the subject line! > > George > List Administrator > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Miners in the First Colony? (Part II) (Suzanne Matson) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 11:08:14 -0800 (PST) > From: Suzanne Matson <holtzclaw.research@yahoo.com> > Subject: Re: [GERMANNA] Miners in the First Colony? (Part II) > To: germanna_colonies@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: <510931.52431.qm@web59503.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > Are the sources Willis Kemper used known? > > Rev. J. Silor Garrison gave the same information in his book > History of the Reformed Church in Virginia, 1714-1940 which was > published in 1948.? Rev. Garrison did not give his sources. > > Since no one has responded, perhaps there is no proof that they > were miners. > > Suzanne Collins Matson > > > > > ________________________________ > From: "john.blankenbaker@comcast.net" john.blankenbaker@comcast.net > Sent: Wednesday, November 5, 2008 6:48:05 AM > Subject: Re: [GERMANNA] Miners in the First Colony? (Part II) > > Suzanne, > Willis Kemper really started the ball rolling with the idea > that the First Colony consisted of miners. > > -- > John.Blankenbaker@comcast.net > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > To contact the GERMANNA_COLONIES list administrator, send an email to > GERMANNA_COLONIES-admin@rootsweb.com. > > To post a message to the GERMANNA_COLONIES mailing list, send an > email to GERMANNA_COLONIES@rootsweb.com. > > __________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMANNA_COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com > with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and > the body of the > email with no additional text. > > > End of GERMANNA_COLONIES Digest, Vol 3, Issue 313 > *************************************************

I am not throwing Albrecht, Alexander Spotswood or de Graffenried into the trash.  I don't think John is either-but he can answer for himself.  Albrecht may be the only one who could have claimed to be a miner.  I doubt Spotswood ever did any mining work on his own.  No doubt he was looking for silver-but with others supplying the labor.  My understanding of John's statements was that the First Colony people themselves were not miners based on the known information about their livelihoods before their arrival in the Virginia Colony.  Speaking specifically of the Holtzclaw/Holzklau family:  Hans Jacob Holtzklau was a school teacher as were his grandfather, father and brother Johannes.  Going back into the records at the Munster archives, it seems the Holzklaus were farmers and/or overseers on land owned by a Catholic convent near Oberholzklau, plus a few who were beer sellers and bakers.  The direct line ancestors seemed to be in other jobs than smelting iron ore. Has anyone researched the amount of iron ore produced in the Siegen area by year?  It might be interesting to discover when the ironworks were most active. Suzanne Colliins Matson   ________________________________ From: Craig Kilby <persisto@earthlink.net> To: germanna_colonies@rootsweb.com Sent: Sunday, November 9, 2008 12:45:59 PM Subject: [GERMANNA] First Colony Not Miners? Whoah!  Back up the bus! I seem to recall John Blankenbaker, some years ago on this same list,  in one of his thousand + notes, gave a lot of thought and research  into this very topic, particularly about Joseph Albrecht, Gov.  Spottswood and the imposter "Baron" de Graffenried,  (the founder of  New Bern, NC)....are we now throwing all of this into the trash? Craig Kilby On Nov 9, 2008, at 3:00 AM, germanna_colonies-request@rootsweb.com  wrote: > Subject: Re: [GERMANNA] Miners in the First Colony? (Part II) > To: germanna_colonies@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: <510931.52431.qm@web59503.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > Are the sources Willis Kemper used known? > > Rev. J. Silor Garrison gave the same information in his book  > History of the Reformed Church in Virginia, 1714-1940 which was  > published in 1948.? Rev. Garrison did not give his sources. > > Since no one has responded, perhaps there is no proof that they  > were miners. > > Suzanne Collins Matson > > > > > ________________________________ > From: "john.blankenbaker@comcast.net" john.blankenbaker@comcast.net > Sent: Wednesday, November 5, 2008 6:48:05 AM > Subject: Re: [GERMANNA] Miners in the First Colony? (Part II) > > Suzanne, > Willis Kemper really started the ball rolling with the idea > that the First Colony consisted of miners. > > -- > John.Blankenbaker@comcast.net > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > To contact the GERMANNA_COLONIES list administrator, send an email to > GERMANNA_COLONIES-admin@rootsweb.com. > > To post a message to the GERMANNA_COLONIES mailing list, send an  > email to GERMANNA_COLONIES@rootsweb.com. > > __________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to  > GERMANNA_COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com > with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and  > the body of the > email with no additional text. > > > End of GERMANNA_COLONIES Digest, Vol 3, Issue 313 > ************************************************* ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GERMANNA_COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Are the sources Willis Kemper used known? Rev. J. Silor Garrison gave the same information in his book History of the Reformed Church in Virginia, 1714-1940 which was published in 1948.  Rev. Garrison did not give his sources. Since no one has responded, perhaps there is no proof that they were miners. Suzanne Collins Matson ________________________________ From: "john.blankenbaker@comcast.net" john.blankenbaker@comcast.net Sent: Wednesday, November 5, 2008 6:48:05 AM Subject: Re: [GERMANNA] Miners in the First Colony? (Part II) Suzanne, Willis Kemper really started the ball rolling with the idea that the First Colony consisted of miners. -- John.Blankenbaker@comcast.net

Suzanne, Willis Kemper really started the ball rolling with the idea that the First Colony consisted of miners. -- John.Blankenbaker@comcast.net -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: Suzanne Matson <holtzclaw.research@yahoo.com> > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: "john.blankenbaker@comcast.net" <john.blankenbaker@comcast.net> > Subject: [GERMANNA] Miners in the First Colony? (Part II) > > I believe that the history of the First Germanna Colony overemphasizes that they > were miners. In fact, there seems to me to be a lack of any evidence that any of > them (except Albrecht) were miners. Please submit your evidence if you have any. > > John.Blankenbaker@comcast.net > > I agree with you that the history overemphasizes the miner connection.  My > question is why was the story perpetuated once it was known to be untrue?  > > Suzanne Collins Matson > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMANNA_COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: gailachterberg Surnames: Smith, Darbyshire Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.northam.usa.states.virginia.germannacolonies/83.2/mb.ashx Message Board Post: Ezekiel Smith is my 4th Great Grandfather. His son, Peter Dingess Smith is my direct line. I have seen the family bible in San Antonio and have touched it also. That was so very special for me to actually see something that belonged to Ezekiel and his family. I also have the information that is listed in the bible plus other information that was listed in the Library Catalog. The bible is very fragile and the binding isn't in good condition at all. I'd like to stay in touch with you. I think I wrote you before several years ago. You can get in touch with me through my e-mail at gailachterberg@yahoo.com. It's going to be nice to find new family members. I know that there is a Smith family reunion each year in Seguin, but I don't know when this is or who to contact. Gail (Smith) Achterberg Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

I apologize but my email program fails to pick up all of the "copied material." There is still a missing paragraph which I am sending below. It should start the entire sequence. In this note, I will use a published book of history of Trupbach, (Dieter Troeps, Udo Bohn, “Trupbach Ortsgeschichte in Texten und Bildern”), a village now a part of Siegen. Since so many of the 1713 emigrants from the Siegerland came from Trupbach, a study of the occupations that can be found there will help shed some light on the occupations of the First Germanna Colonists. -- John.Blankenbaker@comcast.net

In this note, I will use a published book of history of Trupbach, (Dieter Troeps, Udo Bohn, “Trupbach Ortsgeschichte in Texten und Bildern”), a village now a part of Siegen. Since so many of the 1713 emigrants from the Siegerland came from Trupbach, a study of the occupations that can be found there will help shed some light on the occupations of the First Germanna Colonists. Miners. One is listed in 1631, then in 1780, 1785, and in the 1800s when 20 names are listed then. Carpenters. This was the most frequent trade mentioned. They are mentioned in 1612, 1678, 1704, 1736, 1737, 1806, 1760, 1795, 1824, 1802, 1835, 1839, 1683, 1713, 1713 (these last three are Philipp Fischbach and his two sons). Wheelwrights. 1675, 1747. Joiners (Cabinet makers). 1820, 1894. Wood Turners. 1791, 1820, 1835, 1855, 1853. Forge Workers. 1743, 1786, 1830, 1786, 1804, 1832, 1835, 1862. -- John.Blankenbaker@comcast.net

Smith. 1862, 1862. Clockmakers. 1666, 1704, 1738, 1773 (All of these are members of the Richter family). Linenweavers. 1826, 1745, 1862, 1835, 1862. Tailors. 1840. Shoemakers. 1790. Masons. 1862, 1867. Thatchers. 1851, 1852. Innkeepers. 1862, 1862, 1820. In the early eighteenth century or before then, only one miner is named. Other occupations, more numerous, are carpenters, wheelwrights, and clock makers. It cannot be said that Trupbach was the home of miners in the early eighteenth century. The many miners in the nineteenth century are due to deep mining made possible by the steam engine. -- John.Blankenbaker@comcast.net

In this note, I will use a published book of history of Trupbach, (Dieter Troeps, Udo Bohn, “Trupbach Ortsgeschichte in Texten und Bildern”), a village now a part of Siegen. Since so many of the 1713 emigrants from the Siegerland came from Trupbach, a study of the occupations that can be found there will help shed some light on the occupations of the First Germanna Colonists. Miners. One is listed in 1631, then in 1780, 1785, and in the 1800s when 20 names are listed then. Carpenters. This was the most frequent trade mentioned. They are mentioned in 1612, 1678, 1704, 1736, 1737, 1806, 1760, 1795, 1824, 1802, 1835, 1839, 1683, 1713, 1713 (these last three are Philipp Fischbach and his two sons). Wheelwrights. 1675, 1747. Joiners (Cabinet makers). 1820, 1894. Wood Turners. 1791, 1820, 1835, 1855, 1853. Forge Workers. 1743, 1786, 1830, 1786, 1804, 1832, 1835, 1862. -- John.Blankenbaker@comcast.net

Hans Jacob Holzklau. Definitely a teacher by occupation. Johannes Kemper. He was born in 1692 and 21 years old in 1713. Due to the poor economic conditions in Siegerland, he may have had a hard time finding a job. Johann Jost Merten. He was 22 in 1713, and like Johannes Kemper, he may have had a hard time finding a job. Hans Jacob Richter. He was highly trained as a toolmaker and steelsmith. He may have made tools for mining and metal working but it is doubtful that he ever mined himself. Johannes Speilmann. There is no known occupation. Johann Hermann Otterbach. He was a Fuhrman which means a carrier or carter. In other words, he transported freight whether it was wood, charcoal, leather, or iron. [The father of Johannes Hoffman was also a Fuhrmann which B.C. Holtzclaw interpreted incorrectly as a dealer in iron products.] Johann Henrich Weber. There is no record of any occupation for him. I believe that the history of the First Germanna Colony overemphasizes that they were miners. In fact, there seems to me to be a lack of any evidence that any of them (except Albrecht) were miners. Please submit your evidence if you have any. John.Blankenbaker@comcast.net -- John.Blankenbaker@comcast.net