For those interested in a brief history of German guilds and their gradual disappearance, you may want to take a look at this URL _http://www.ohiou.edu/~chastain/dh/guilds.htm_ (http://www.ohiou.edu/~chastain/dh/guilds.htm) Remove the punctuation fore and aft which AOL seems to add. I am fairly sure that a google.com search will get more results. E.W.Wallace **************AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and all other Holiday needs. Search Now. (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1212792382x1200798498/aol?redir=http://searchblog.aol.com/2008/11/04/happy-holidays-from -aol-search/?ncid=emlcntussear00000001)

I think what has been offered is not only that there were mines in the area, but that many of the First Colonists had iron working in their particular family, i.e. Fischbach, Holtzclaw, Hofmann, Coontz and Otterbach. I think that what you have in this group of people is the knowledge of mines and mining--their fathers, grandfathers, great grandfathers and further back were in this business and they knew it well. At least half of the immigrants had this knowledge, the other half were tradesmen, i.e. carpenters, blacksmiths, window maker, etc. There are at least two that we do not know what their occupation was, who's to say that they weren't miners? I agree that no proof of this is forthcoming, but ya never know. As to the question of the viability of the iron industry in the Siegen area, BC Holtzclaw states: "From the 14th to the 19th century, Nassau-Siegen was on the whole a very prosperous country, with a balanced economy, of which the iron industry was the backbone." He also does discuss the Guilds, in particular the Guild of Smelterers and Hammersmiths: "The Count and the nobility of Nassau-Siegen were at first active in founding such iron-works (water power revolutionized the iron industry in the 13th century), but they very soon passed into the hands of worker-owners. These were banded together in the Guild of Smelterers and Hammersmiths, of which the members mostly lived in the country near their plants, unlike most of the members of the other guilds, who lived in the cities of Siegen, Freudenberg and Hilchenbach. This tended to break down the distinction between the citizens of a city and the peasants, and to induce an independent and democratic spirit among the Siegerlaender which has persisted to this day." He goes on to discuss the fact that the iron works didn't operate all year long, that they depended on water power and charcoal--"Thus the ironworks owners nearly always engaged in farming in addition to their work in the iron industry, and the farmers frequently became part owners of the iron works, through intermarriage. The ironworks also increased the available land or farming, through draining swamps and carrying off the water in their canals. Thus there was a rather balanced economy between farming, iron production and the city guilds, particularly the Guild of Steelsmiths and Toolmakers." "Nassau-Siegen became noted for its iron products, which were exported all over Germany during the 15th to the 18th centuries, in the form of stoves, cannon, and many other smaller articles. In 1555 the Guild of Smelters and Hammersmiths, along with the allied guilds in Siegen, were strong enough to pay 21,000 Gulden to Count William the Rich, on condition that neither the Count nor the lesser nobility would found any further iron works; and that the ironworks existing in that year should not be increased, but should remain in the hands of the owners and their descendants." So, as to the question put forth by John B, I don't think that any one of the First Colony were "miners", but they had knowledge of the mining industry and they must have passed for miners because it appears they were brought here to mine. And they did just that, they built a mine and they mined it. Barb Price In a message dated 11/10/2008 19:06:44 Pacific Standard Time, holtzclaw.research@yahoo.com writes: This is the fifth message in two days that has not gone through. I am resending this. ----- Forwarded Message ---- From: Suzanne Matson <holtzclaw.research@yahoo.com> To: Germanna Colonies <GERMANNA_COLONIES@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 7:00:00 PM Subject: Miners and mining John Blankenbaker asked for proof that members of the First Colony were miners. None has been presented. So I would propose that they were not miners. What has been presented is the presence of iron furnaces, etc in or near the home villages of the First Colony. These are two different issues. Yes, there was mining in the Siegen area--but does that automatically mean that everyone from that area was a miner? I don't think so. As an example, both of my grandfathers were farmers.. My father was a business owner and my mother a homemaker--note--neither were farmers. Yes, they were familiar with farming but they were not farmers. I, as a granddaughter, am also familiar with farming since I spent much of my childhood rambling around my grandfathers' farms. I am not a farmer but I am familiar with farming. So everyone in the First Colony could probably have claimed some familiarity with mining but that did not make them miners. I would like to know if, in that time, membership in a guild meant that you actually were working in the mines or did it confer some type of social status--or both. That might help disprove or prove some of the assumptions made about our ancestors. Another example--the Ironmongers of London have long ceased to have anything to do with ironwork because the work moved outside London proper where they had no control. Today, the Ironmongers still exist and is a patrimonial group with limited membership (about 230, I think). Today, they manage their assets-financial and real estate. No mention is made of their various careers and jobs. Assuming that at some point in the distant past, these members had a ironmonger ancestor, it does not necessarily follow that today they would still be working with iron. Suzanne Collins Matson ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GERMANNA_COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message **************AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and all other Holiday needs. Search Now. (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1212792382x1200798498/aol?redir=http://searchblog.aol.com/2008/11/04/happy-holidays-from -aol-search/?ncid=emlcntussear00000001)

Of course, we all know that whatever information we find on the internet should be verified, if at all possible, with other sources. About iron works, mining, etc. in Siegen, you may want to take a look at this URL: _http://encyclopedia.jrank.org/SHA_SIV/SIEGEN.html_ (http://encyclopedia.jrank.org/SHA_SIV/SIEGEN.html) Remove any punctuation fore and aft which AOL seems to add.to the URL. (Then you may want to dig out your OLD print Encyclopedia. Ours is hidden behind the sofa!!! But once in a while we dig it out!) Since iron working as well as mining and smelting, etc. were main occupations in Siegen since early days, one could speculate that our early Germanna residents were at least familiar with skill associated with iron. One did have to make a living!!! In English research of parish records, at least in the baptism records, one finds that the occupation of at least one of the parents is given. Is that true of German baptism records of early date? Do any of the baptism records--or manumission records--of our early Germanna ancestors still exist? E.W.Wallace **************AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and all other Holiday needs. Search Now. (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1212792382x1200798498/aol?redir=http://searchblog.aol.com/2008/11/04/happy-holidays-from -aol-search/?ncid=emlcntussear00000001)

That's fine, but one of my points was to wonder where BC Holtzclaw got the information that John Hofmann's father was a fuhrmann and that he, as a fuhrmann, dealt in iron products. Couldn't a fuhrmann transport all types of products? My other point is that John Hofmann's family had knowledge of the iron industry, his father, his grand father and his great grandfather. All were members of the Smelterers and Hammersmiths Guild and were part owners in ironworks. They worked in the iron industry. Iron in German is also "Eisern" the village in which the Hofmanns lived. When we visited Eisern with Germanna, Herr Becker, one of the members of the Heimatverein, pointed that out to us, that Eisern means Iron. Barb Price In a message dated 11/10/2008 19:21:31 Pacific Standard Time, holtzclaw.research@yahoo.com writes: Barb, Fuhrmann does not mean "traveling dealer in iron products". I consulted three different German dictionaries including a German dictionary that lists occupations. Fuhrmann means a carter, carrier or driver. BC Holtzclaw is wrong in his definition. The word for iron is Eisen. Suzanne Collins Matson ________________________________ From: "RockCatt@aol.com" <RockCatt@aol.com> To: Germanna_Colonies@rootsweb.com Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 9:35:03 PM Subject: [GERMANNA] Fwd: John Hoffman and the Fuhrmann ____________________________________ From: RockCatt To: germanna_colonies@rootsweb.com Sent: 11/10/2008 16:16:04 Pacific Standard Time Subj: Re: John Hoffman and the Fuhrmann John Hoffmann, the 1714 immigrant, also had ancestors that were in the iron industry: BC Holtclaw notes that the father of Johannes Hofmann, John Hoffman, the 1714 immigant, was "called "Fuhrmann" in this record," the christening record of John Hoffmann. BC also states: "Johannes Hofmann(this is the father of John) became a Siegen citizen in the same year, 1690, though he lived most of his life at Eisern later on. He was a Fuhrmann, or traveling dealer in iron products." I'm wondering if the Siegen citizenship record states exactly what Johannes Hofmann's job was and that he did deal in iron. I'll have to find that record to be sure, but it's certainly possible. Tillmann Hofmann, b. ca 1638, the father of Johannes Hofmann, Sr., and the grandfather of Johannes Hofmann, the 1714 Immigrant, was admitted to the Guild of Smelterers and Hammersmiths as a smelterer in 1661/2 when he inherited his father's property. Dietrich Hofmann, b. ca 1615, Tillmans' father, was admitted as smelterer to the Guild of Smelterers and Hammersmiths in 1647. BC Holtzclaw states that this shows "that he owned at least 6 "Days" or shares in some ironworks, probably the Eisern ironworks." Tillmann Hofmann, b. ca 1590, he possessed ironworks property and was admitted to the Guild of Smelterers and Hammersmiths in 1628/9. Barb Price In a message dated 11/10/2008 12:29:21 Pacific Standard Time, john.blankenbaker@comcast.net writes: People have been quoting the wrong interpretation of the German word "Fuhrmann." It does NOT mean a dealer in iron or an exporter of iron as B.C. Holtzclaw said it did. All good German dictionaries define it as a "carter," "conveyor," "hauler," or "freighter" without regard to what is being hauled. [The modern analogy would be that one drove a truck.] We know a little bit about the family of John Hoffman, Sr., the father of 1714 John, 1738 Henry, and William (who also came to America but to Pennsylvania). William left a diary in which he recorded many daily experiences. There is nothing in his writings which suggest iron. One might infer that William was a farmer and he does say that he owned a horse (only a few did). -- John.Blankenbaker@comcast.net ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GERMANNA_COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ____________________________________ AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and all other Holiday needs. _Search Now_ (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1212792382x1200798498/aol?redir=http: //searchblog.aol.com/2008/11/04/happy-holidays-from-aol-searc h/?ncid=emlcntussear00000001) . **************AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and all other Holiday needs. Search Now. (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1212792382x1200798498/aol?redir=http: //searchblog.aol.com/2008/11/04/happy-holidays-from -aol-search/?ncid=emlcntussear00000001) ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GERMANNA_COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GERMANNA_COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message **************AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and all other Holiday needs. Search Now. (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1212792382x1200798498/aol?redir=http://searchblog.aol.com/2008/11/04/happy-holidays-from -aol-search/?ncid=emlcntussear00000001)

Do any of the Wilhoit family readers know anything about this cemetery in Osage County, MO, near the old settlement of Aud? I have an elderly friend named Oberkrom whose grandfather was supposedly buried there - at this point I don't know if he married into the family or it was just the nearest cemetery to his home. I thought there might be some of you who know something of its history or know something about who is buried there. I have another friend who plans to go try to find it later this fall but thought I'd pick your brains first. Bonnie S. Knauss

____________________________________ From: RockCatt To: germanna_colonies@rootsweb.com Sent: 11/10/2008 16:16:04 Pacific Standard Time Subj: Re: John Hoffman and the Fuhrmann John Hoffmann, the 1714 immigrant, also had ancestors that were in the iron industry: BC Holtclaw notes that the father of Johannes Hofmann, John Hoffman, the 1714 immigant, was "called "Fuhrmann" in this record," the christening record of John Hoffmann. BC also states: "Johannes Hofmann(this is the father of John) became a Siegen citizen in the same year, 1690, though he lived most of his life at Eisern later on. He was a Fuhrmann, or traveling dealer in iron products." I'm wondering if the Siegen citizenship record states exactly what Johannes Hofmann's job was and that he did deal in iron. I'll have to find that record to be sure, but it's certainly possible. Tillmann Hofmann, b. ca 1638, the father of Johannes Hofmann, Sr., and the grandfather of Johannes Hofmann, the 1714 Immigrant, was admitted to the Guild of Smelterers and Hammersmiths as a smelterer in 1661/2 when he inherited his father's property. Dietrich Hofmann, b. ca 1615, Tillmans' father, was admitted as smelterer to the Guild of Smelterers and Hammersmiths in 1647. BC Holtzclaw states that this shows "that he owned at least 6 "Days" or shares in some ironworks, probably the Eisern ironworks." Tillmann Hofmann, b. ca 1590, he possessed ironworks property and was admitted to the Guild of Smelterers and Hammersmiths in 1628/9. Barb Price In a message dated 11/10/2008 12:29:21 Pacific Standard Time, john.blankenbaker@comcast.net writes: People have been quoting the wrong interpretation of the German word "Fuhrmann." It does NOT mean a dealer in iron or an exporter of iron as B.C. Holtzclaw said it did. All good German dictionaries define it as a "carter," "conveyor," "hauler," or "freighter" without regard to what is being hauled. [The modern analogy would be that one drove a truck.] We know a little bit about the family of John Hoffman, Sr., the father of 1714 John, 1738 Henry, and William (who also came to America but to Pennsylvania). William left a diary in which he recorded many daily experiences. There is nothing in his writings which suggest iron. One might infer that William was a farmer and he does say that he owned a horse (only a few did). -- John.Blankenbaker@comcast.net ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GERMANNA_COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ____________________________________ AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and all other Holiday needs. _Search Now_ (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1212792382x1200798498/aol?redir=http://searchblog.aol.com/2008/11/04/happy-holidays-from-aol-searc h/?ncid=emlcntussear00000001) . **************AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and all other Holiday needs. Search Now. (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1212792382x1200798498/aol?redir=http://searchblog.aol.com/2008/11/04/happy-holidays-from -aol-search/?ncid=emlcntussear00000001)

People have been quoting the wrong interpretation of the German word "Fuhrmann." It does NOT mean a dealer in iron or an exporter of iron as B.C. Holtzclaw said it did. All good German dictionaries define it as a "carter," "conveyor," "hauler," or "freighter" without regard to what is being hauled. [The modern analogy would be that one drove a truck.] We know a little bit about the family of John Hoffman, Sr., the father of 1714 John, 1738 Henry, and William (who also came to America but to Pennsylvania). William left a diary in which he recorded many daily experiences. There is nothing in his writings which suggest iron. One might infer that William was a farmer and he does say that he owned a horse (only a few did). -- John.Blankenbaker@comcast.net

Re: Guild Membership I do not think that having a father in a guild meant that a son would automatically become a member also. Like all things political, a father might have some influence is getting a son admitted as an apprentice. Guilds limited the number of members to help insure that there would be enough work for everyone to do. Additionally, some guilds did not admit sons whose fathers were in some occupations. For example, a gravedigger's son would have a hard time to gain admittance to most guilds. Before one could be admitted as a "master." he had to pass a severe training course. An analogy might be the medical or legal profession today. Having a doctor as a father did not entitle one to become a doctor. It might help to being admitted to "medical school." -- John.Blankenbaker@comcast.net

This message that I sent last night also did not appear today: Jacob Holtzclaw's father, Hans Henrich Holtzclaw, was admitted to the Guild of Smelterers and Hammersmiths in 1664, but became a schoolteacher later, I think around 1667. He was the schoolmaster at Trupbach from 1667-1670 and was the schoolmaster there again after 1681. His eldest son, Johannes, became the schoolmaster at Trupbach after his father in 1693. From 1671 to 1680, he was the schoolmaster at Krombach. So, Jacob's father was both a teacher and an iron worker simultaneously. Hans Henrich Holtzclaw had 15 siblings. I'll deal with the brothers that were involved with the iron industry here: 1. Johann Holtzclaw b. 1640--admitted to the Guild Smelterers and Hammersmiths in 1656 Johann's sons, Tillman and Johannes, were also members of the Guild of Smelterers and Hammersmiths and were in the iron industry at Muesenershuetten. BC Holtzclaw states that Johannes was connected with the iron industry all of his life. 2. Johannes b. 1637--his godfather was Johannes Schutt of Muesenershuetten, part owner of the ironworks at Muesenershuetten and the Hardt. 3. Ebert Holtzclaw b. 1645--Member of the Guild of Smelterers and Hammersmith in 1658 4. Johann Henrich Holtzclaw b. 1651-2--Member of the Guild of Smelterers and Hammersmiths in 1671. He was a moulder and smelterer and was in the iron industry all of his life "becoming an associate justice both of the Court of Mines and, also, of the Court of the Hain." Jacob Holtzclaw's grandfather, Johannes Holtzclaw, was a teacher and he was also part owner of the Schneppenkauten Hammer from about 1632 to 1653. He was a teacher and he was part owner of the ironworks simultaneously. Jacob's paternal line via the Holtzclaws most definitely was connected to the iron industry. Jacob's maternal line has even more extensive involvement in the iron industry as his grandmother was probably Hebel, the daughter of Henrich Flender Muess of Schneppenkauten. We can trace Hebel Muess's ancestry back to Cone Busch b. ca 1400 and the owner of the Haardt iron works in 1444. This iron works, which included a hammer and smelter, was co-owned by a Busch, possibly Cone's father, and his sister, Else Sel. There is evidence that this was in operation as early as 1375. Jacob Holtzclaw is descended from 2 of Cone Busch's sons, Hen and Gotthard Busch. Hilla Busch, the daughter of Gotthard Busch, married Gerhard Busch, the son of Hen above. Jacob Holtzclaw's mother, Gertrud Solbach, is also a descendant of Gotthard Busch. She's also a descendant of the Fick, Patt, Muess, Muenker, Shutte, Flender, and Haardt families, all of whom were intimately connected to the iron industry. BC Holtzclaw states that the Fick family "were among the most prominent pioneer iron-masters in Nassau-Siegen, being founders of at least five ironworks between 1400 and 1475, Muenkershutten and Fickenhuetten in the Wiedenau township; Dilnhuetten in the Bottenbach township; Geisweid in the Klafeld township; and Dilnhenrichuetten (later called the Sighutte) in the Siegen township." I'll list the various iron hammers and smelts in the general area of the First Colony next, but it's late!! Barb Price In a message dated 11/10/2008 11:48:29 Pacific Standard Time, drcary@cox.net writes: Not being of the First Colonists, I still have found this discussion interesting. As it appears that not all the occupations have been clearly identified for the first colonists, and probably all the others on the Germanna list, it would be good if folks looked through their material, just as Barb has done, and see what they have on occupations. Then, with sharing, perhaps a complete list of occupations may be found. Parents of the immigrants also would be neat to know. As I do research on ancestors in German Church Records, I have noted that the occupation is not always in a marriage, birth, or death record pertaining to an individual. Sometimes it appears almost everytime the ancestor appears. Other times is rarely is noted. The grandfather of my Katz immigrant was one that I thought I would never find. He had 17 children. Eventually, I found where he had "bauer" after his name. I first found this when he was named as a Godparent in a baptismal record. With the Katz family, I never failed to find the occupation all the way back to about 1550. Before that, military and tax records were necessary to extend the family back another hundred years. The surname was well merited as the village at times seemed to be populated by nothing but Katz. 25 per cent of the soldiers killed in each World War carried the surname. Their pictures, with the exception of one, hang in the hall outside the city administrator's office. Cary ----- Original Message ----- From: <RockCatt@aol.com> To: <wwallace@muskingum.edu>; <germanna_colonies@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 11:02 PM Subject: Re: [GERMANNA] First Colony Not Miners? My thoughts exactly! There may not have been "miners" in the First Colony, but I can assure you that many of them had the mining industry in their blood. Jacob Holtzclaw's ancestors were involved in mining, mines and iron hammers from the early 1400's as were the Fischbachs. I think that what we had with the 1714 Immigrants was a community, if you will, with carpenters, a blacksmith, a school teacher, a pastor, farmers along with their involvement with the mining industry, and their ancestor's involvement. Jacob Holtzclaw's father was a schoolteacher, but he was also a member of the Guild of Smelterers and Hammersmiths, so was his grandfather. I also think that we have to keep in mind that being in the iron industry, such as a hammersmith, was probably not the only job that they had as they could not always work at that job. I was conducting research a couple of years ago about Buschhuetten, the Iron Hammer owned by Jacob Holtzclaw's ancestors from 1486 to 1746, that's 260 years! The hammer did not operate every day, in fact, its operation depended on enough water, enough charcoal, enough pig iron and enough money. The operation of the hammer could also be limited by the Prince in power, he controlled the number of hammer days. If he thought that the hammer was requiring too many trees to be cut down to operate the blower, he would limit the number of days of operation. Hence, many of the ironworks owners were farmers, too, which balanced the economy of the area as well. Here's the list of the men from the First Colony, their occupations and their involvement with the mining industry: Brombach/Brumback, Melchior/Melcherd, b. 1685 at Musen (came as a bachelor) I'm not sure of his occupation, but his grandfather was a carpenter and joiner. Cuntze/Koontz, Jost b. 1674 at Nierderndorf Member of the Steelsmiths and Toolmakers Guild of Ferndorf. His father was a toolmaker and so were his 3 brothers. Fischbach/Fishback, Philip b. 1661 at Seelbach--not sure of his occupation, but his ancestors owned Hammers in Nierderndorf from the 1400's, Tyl van Fispe, his earliest ancestor and they were active in the iron industry for centuries. Haeger/Häger, Rev. Johann Henrich b. 1644 at Antzhausen Heide/Heite/Hitt, Peter/Deiter b. ca 1680-83 at Rehbach--occupation unkown Hoffmann/Hoffman/Huffman, Johannes b. 1692 at Eisern (came as a bachelor to VA) Eisern--not sure of his occupation, but father was a fuhrmann, an exporter of iron goods and his ancestors were all admitted as smelterers to the Guild of Smelterers and Hammersmiths. -BC Holtzclaw states that this means that they were part owners of a smelter or ironworks, possibly the iron works at Eisern Holzklau/Holtzclaw, Hans Jacob b. 1683 at Trupbach-- His occupation was schoolteacher, but his father was first admitted to the Guild of Smelterers and Hammersmiths in 1664, later he quit this job and became a schoolmaster. Jacob's grandfather, and several of his uncles, were members of the Guild of H ammersmiths and Smelterers, and he was also a schoolteacher. Jacob's grandmother, Hebel Muess, was descended from the Busch and Flender families, associated with iron and ironworks from the 1400's, his ancestor, Gotthard Busch, was "one of the wealthiest and most enterprising iron-masters of the 16th century in Nassau-Siegen" per BC Holtzclaw. He's also descended from the Patt and Fick families, also associated with the iron industry from the 1300's. Kemper/Camper, Johannes b. 1692 at Muesen (came as a bachelor)--Not sure of his occupation, but his father was a church elder at Musen and his grandfather was a smith as was his great grandfather and his ancestors prior to that. Their name was Schmith, Smyt and Schmidt because of their trade. Merdten/Martin, Johnan Jost/John Joseph b. 1691 at Muesen --I don't know his occupation, but his grandfather, Jacob Merten, was an Associate Justice of the Court of the Mines. Several of his ancestors were connected with the customs service. Otterbach/Utterback, Johann Hermann b. 1664 at Trupbach--His occupation was Fuhrmann, or a middle man in the export of iron. His grandfather was a member of the Guild of Smelterers and Hammersmiths as a Huettenknecht, a handy man around the forges. Richter/Rector, Johann Jacob b. 1674 at Trupbach--Admitted to the Guild of Steelsmiths and Toolmakers of the Freudenberg District as a Toolmaker on 7 Jan 1712 per BC Holtzclaw. Spielmann/Spilman, Johannes b. 1679 at Oberschelden--I'm not sure of his occupation, but his ancestor was a window maker. Weber/Weaver, Johann Henrich b. 1667 at Eisern--I'm not sure of his occupation Half of the First Colony had some involvement with the iron industry and like I said before, they may not have been actual miners, but I can't help but believe that they knew the industry. Barb Price In a message dated 11/9/2008 19:42:43 Pacific Standard Time, wwallace@muskingum.edu writes: Suszanne, How do you understand Hans Jacob's ancestor's connection to the Haardt Ironworks (Ancestry and Desendants ..Pg.230 ff)? I am not suggesting that the First Colonists were miners, just that ironworks appear to be a family business back several generations especially on the maternal side. Julie ----- Original Message Follows ----- > > I am not throwing Albrecht, Alexander Spotswood or de > Graffenried into the trash. I don't think John is > either-but he can answer for himself. > > Albrecht may be the only one who could have claimed to be > a miner. I doubt Spotswood ever did any mining work on > his own. No doubt he was looking for silver-but with > others supplying the labor. My understanding of John's > statements was that the First Colony people themselves > were not miners based on the known information about their > livelihoods before their arrival in the Virginia Colony. > > Speaking specifically of the Holtzclaw/Holzklau family: > Hans Jacob Holtzklau was a school teacher as were his > grandfather, father and brother Johannes. Going back into > the records at the Munster archives, it seems the > Holzklaus were farmers and/or overseers on land owned by a > Catholic convent near Oberholzklau, plus a few who were > beer sellers and bakers. The direct line ancestors seemed > to be in other jobs than smelting iron ore. > > Has anyone researched the amount of iron ore produced in > the Siegen area by year? It might be interesting to > discover when the ironworks were most active. > > Suzanne Colliins Matson > > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Craig Kilby <persisto@earthlink.net> > To: germanna_colonies@rootsweb.com > Sent: Sunday, November 9, 2008 12:45:59 PM > Subject: [GERMANNA] First Colony Not Miners? > > Whoah! Back up the bus! > > I seem to recall John Blankenbaker, some years ago on this > same list, in one of his thousand + notes, gave a lot of > thought and research into this very topic, particularly > about Joseph Albrecht, Gov. Spottswood and the imposter > "Baron" de Graffenried, (the founder of New Bern, > NC)....are we now throwing all of this into the trash? > > Craig Kilby > > On Nov 9, 2008, at 3:00 AM, > germanna_colonies-request@rootsweb.com wrote: > > > Subject: Re: [GERMANNA] Miners in the First Colony? > > (Part II) To: germanna_colonies@rootsweb.com > > Message-ID: > > <510931.52431.qm@web59503.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > > Are the sources Willis Kemper used known? > > > > Rev. J. Silor Garrison gave the same information in his > > book History of the Reformed Church in Virginia, > > 1714-1940 which was published in 1948.? Rev. Garrison > did not give his sources. > > > Since no one has responded, perhaps there is no proof > > that they were miners. > > > > Suzanne Collins Matson > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: "john.blankenbaker@comcast.net" > > john.blankenbaker@comcast.net Sent: Wednesday, November > > 5, 2008 6:48:05 AM Subject: Re: [GERMANNA] Miners in the > First Colony? (Part II) > > > Suzanne, > > Willis Kemper really started the ball rolling with the > > idea that the First Colony consisted of miners. > > > > -- > > John.Blankenbaker@comcast.net > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > To contact the GERMANNA_COLONIES list administrator, > > send an email to GERMANNA_COLONIES-admin@rootsweb.com. > > > > To post a message to the GERMANNA_COLONIES mailing list, > > send an email to GERMANNA_COLONIES@rootsweb.com. > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > GERMANNA_COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word > > "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and > > the body of the email with no additional text. > > > > > > End of GERMANNA_COLONIES Digest, Vol 3, Issue 313 > > ************************************************* > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMANNA_COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the > body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMANNA_COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the > body of the message bill and julie wallace ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GERMANNA_COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message **************AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and all other Holiday needs. Search Now. (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1212792382x1200798498/aol?redir=htt p://searchblog.aol.com/2008/11/04/happy-holidays-from -aol-search/?ncid=emlcntussear00000001) ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GERMANNA_COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message **************AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and all other Holiday needs. Search Now. (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1212792382x1200798498/aol?redir=http://searchblog.aol.com/2008/11/04/happy-holidays-from -aol-search/?ncid=emlcntussear00000001)

John Hoffmann, the 1714 immigrant, also had ancestors that were in the iron industry: BC Holtclaw notes that the father of Johannes Hofmann, John Hoffman, the 1714 immigant, was "called "Fuhrmann" in this record," the christening record of John Hoffmann. BC also states: "Johannes Hofmann(this is the father of John) became a Siegen citizen in the same year, 1690, though he lived most of his life at Eisern later on. He was a Fuhrmann, or traveling dealer in iron products." I'm wondering if the Siegen citizenship record states exactly what Johannes Hofmann's job was and that he did deal in iron. I'll have to find that record to be sure, but it's certainly possible. Tillmann Hofmann, b. ca 1638, the father of Johannes Hofmann, Sr., and the grandfather of Johannes Hofmann, the 1714 Immigrant, was admitted to the Guild of Smelterers and Hammersmiths as a smelterer in 1661/2 when he inherited his father's property. Dietrich Hofmann, b. ca 1615, Tillmans' father, was admitted as smelterer to the Guild of Smelterers and Hammersmiths in 1647. BC Holtzclaw states that this shows "that he owned at least 6 "Days" or shares in some ironworks, probably the Eisern ironworks." Tillmann Hofmann, b. ca 1590, he possessed ironworks property and was admitted to the Guild of Smelterers and Hammersmiths in 1628/9. Barb Price In a message dated 11/10/2008 12:29:21 Pacific Standard Time, john.blankenbaker@comcast.net writes: People have been quoting the wrong interpretation of the German word "Fuhrmann." It does NOT mean a dealer in iron or an exporter of iron as B.C. Holtzclaw said it did. All good German dictionaries define it as a "carter," "conveyor," "hauler," or "freighter" without regard to what is being hauled. [The modern analogy would be that one drove a truck.] We know a little bit about the family of John Hoffman, Sr., the father of 1714 John, 1738 Henry, and William (who also came to America but to Pennsylvania). William left a diary in which he recorded many daily experiences. There is nothing in his writings which suggest iron. One might infer that William was a farmer and he does say that he owned a horse (only a few did). -- John.Blankenbaker@comcast.net ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GERMANNA_COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message **************AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and all other Holiday needs. Search Now. (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1212792382x1200798498/aol?redir=http://searchblog.aol.com/2008/11/04/happy-holidays-from -aol-search/?ncid=emlcntussear00000001)

This is the fifth message in two days that has not gone through.  I am resending this. ----- Forwarded Message ---- From: Suzanne Matson <holtzclaw.research@yahoo.com> To: Germanna Colonies <GERMANNA_COLONIES@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 7:00:00 PM Subject: Miners and mining John Blankenbaker asked for proof that members of the First Colony were miners.  None has been presented.  So I would propose that they were not miners.  What has been presented is the presence of iron furnaces, etc in or near the home villages of the First Colony.  These are two different issues. Yes, there was mining in the Siegen area--but does that automatically mean that everyone from that area was a miner?  I don't think so. As an example, both of my grandfathers were farmers..  My father was a business owner and my mother a homemaker--note--neither were farmers.  Yes, they were familiar with farming but they were not farmers.  I, as a granddaughter, am also familiar with farming since I spent much of my childhood rambling around my grandfathers' farms.  I am not a farmer but I am familiar with farming.  So everyone in the First Colony could probably have claimed some familiarity with mining but that did not make them miners. I would like to know if, in that time, membership in a guild meant that you actually were working in the mines or did it confer some type of social status--or both.  That might help disprove or prove some of the assumptions made about our ancestors. Another example--the Ironmongers of London have long ceased to have anything to do with ironwork because the work moved outside London proper where they had no control.  Today, the Ironmongers still exist and is a patrimonial group with limited membership (about 230, I think).  Today, they manage their assets-financial and real estate.  No mention is made of their various careers and jobs.  Assuming that at some point in the distant past, these members had a ironmonger ancestor, it does not necessarily follow that today they would still be working with iron. Suzanne Collins Matson

Barb, Fuhrmann does not mean "traveling dealer in iron products".  I consulted three different German dictionaries including a German dictionary that lists occupations.  Fuhrmann means a carter, carrier or driver.  BC Holtzclaw is wrong in his definition.   The word for iron is Eisen. Suzanne Collins Matson ________________________________ From: "RockCatt@aol.com" <RockCatt@aol.com> To: Germanna_Colonies@rootsweb.com Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 9:35:03 PM Subject: [GERMANNA] Fwd: John Hoffman and the Fuhrmann   ____________________________________ From: RockCatt To: germanna_colonies@rootsweb.com Sent: 11/10/2008  16:16:04 Pacific Standard Time Subj: Re: John Hoffman and the  Fuhrmann John Hoffmann, the 1714 immigrant, also had ancestors that were in the  iron industry: BC Holtclaw notes that the father of Johannes Hofmann, John Hoffman, the  1714 immigant, was "called "Fuhrmann" in this record,"  the christening  record of John Hoffmann.  BC also states: "Johannes Hofmann(this is the father of John) became a Siegen citizen in  the same year, 1690, though he lived most of his life at Eisern later  on.  He was a Fuhrmann, or traveling dealer in iron products."  I'm  wondering if the Siegen citizenship record states exactly what Johannes  Hofmann's job was and that he did deal in iron.  I'll have to find that  record to be sure, but it's certainly possible. Tillmann Hofmann, b. ca 1638, the father of Johannes Hofmann, Sr., and  the grandfather of Johannes Hofmann, the 1714 Immigrant, was admitted to the  Guild of Smelterers and Hammersmiths as a smelterer in 1661/2 when he  inherited his father's property. Dietrich Hofmann, b. ca 1615, Tillmans' father, was admitted as smelterer  to the Guild of Smelterers and Hammersmiths in 1647.  BC Holtzclaw states  that this shows "that he owned at least 6 "Days" or shares in some ironworks,  probably the Eisern ironworks." Tillmann Hofmann, b. ca 1590, he possessed ironworks property and was  admitted to the Guild of Smelterers and Hammersmiths in 1628/9. Barb Price In a message dated 11/10/2008 12:29:21 Pacific Standard Time,  john.blankenbaker@comcast.net writes: People  have been quoting the wrong interpretation of the German word "Fuhrmann."  It does NOT mean a dealer in iron or an exporter of iron as B.C.  Holtzclaw said it did. All good German dictionaries define it as  a "carter," "conveyor," "hauler," or "freighter" without regard to  what is being hauled. [The modern analogy would be that one drove a  truck.] We know a little bit about the family of John  Hoffman, Sr., the father of 1714 John, 1738 Henry, and William (who  also came to America but to Pennsylvania). William left a diary in  which he recorded many daily experiences. There is nothing in his  writings which suggest iron. One might infer that William was a farmer  and he does say that he owned a horse (only a few  did). -- John.Blankenbaker@comcast.net ------------------------------- To  unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to  GERMANNA_COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without  the quotes in the subject and the body of the  message ____________________________________ AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and all other Holiday needs.  _Search  Now_ (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1212792382x1200798498/aol?redir=http://searchblog.aol.com/2008/11/04/happy-holidays-from-aol-searc h/?ncid=emlcntussear00000001) . **************AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and all other Holiday needs. Search Now. (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1212792382x1200798498/aol?redir=http://searchblog.aol.com/2008/11/04/happy-holidays-from -aol-search/?ncid=emlcntussear00000001) ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GERMANNA_COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I was recently reading through the diary of John Fontaine, a participant of the expedition, Knights of the Golden Horseshoe. On their travels, Fontaine had this to say about the Germans and the mine: August 24, 1716: "......and about nine of the clock we came to the German-town, where we rested that night--bad beds and indifferent entertainment. German-town, 25th.---After dinner we went to see the mines, but I could not observe that there was any good mine. The Germans pretend that it is a silver mine; we took some of the ore and endeavored to run it, but could get nothing out of it, and I am of opinion it will not come to anything, no, not as much as lead. Many of the gentlemen of the county are concerned in this work." Something else of interest to me that he wrote about during the expedition is a place the group passed through and that they named "Mine River." Here's his explanation as to why he named it such: "30th.--....we came up with our baggage at a small river, three miles on the way, which we called Mine River, because there was an appearance of a silver mine by it." This would have been 6 miles from Fort Germanna as they had already traveled 3 miles. Wonder who would have dug this silver mine?!? Barb Price In a message dated 11/10/2008 12:53:41 Pacific Standard Time, holtzclaw.research@yahoo.com writes: Craig, My understanding of the 1714 group is that they were never involved with iron-making at Germanna. There is some mention in one document that I am aware of that they were involved in quarrying. I take this to mean working with stone, rocks, etc., not iron ore. I think Spotswood's initial interest was in silver but he had a difficult time getting an answer from London regarding his "take" from any silver found. I think he wanted to know the profit possibility before he invested time, money and people in the venture. Lt. Governor Spotswood was a prolific writer of letters to the London Board of Trade. These letters provide interesting insights into a very complicated man. Suzanne Collins Matson ________________________________ From: Craig Kilby <persisto@earthlink.net> "The Spotswood Iron Empire" by Col. Robert D. Burhans, in the 1971 issue of the magazine. The first sentence of the 4th paragraph reads "The Spotswood story of iron development is closely interwined with the early German immigrants to Virginia..." and continued much of our well known story. It could almost have been written by our own John Blankenbaker, as it correctly sums up the "many sided Spotswood" and his claims to his superiors in London that he was seeking silver, when in fact he was establishing an iron-making community at Germanna. If anyone would like copies of this article please contact me off list. Craig Kilby ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GERMANNA_COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GERMANNA_COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message **************AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and all other Holiday needs. Search Now. (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1212792382x1200798498/aol?redir=h ttp://searchblog.aol.com/2008/11/04/happy-holidays-from-aol-search/?ncid=emlcntussear00000001)

John Blankenbaker asked for proof that members of the First Colony were miners.  None has been presented.  So I would propose that they were not miners.  What has been presented is the presence of iron furnaces, etc in or near the home villages of the First Colony.  These are two different issues. Yes, there was mining in the Siegen area--but does that automatically mean that everyone from that area was a miner?  I don't think so. As an example, both of my grandfathers were farmers.  My father was a business owner and my mother a homemaker--note--neither were farmers.  Yes, they were familiar with farming but they were not farmers.  I, as a granddaughter, am also familiar with farming since I spent much of my childhood rambling around my grandfathers' farms.  I am not a farmer but I am familiar with farming.  So everyone in the First Colony could probably have claimed some familiarity with mining but that did not make them miners. I would like to know if, in that time, membership in a guild meant that you actually were working in the mines or did it confer some type of social status--or both.  That might help disprove or prove some of the assumptions made about our ancestors. Another example--the Ironmongers of London have long ceased to have anything to do with ironwork because the work moved outside London proper where they had no control.  Today, the Ironmongers still exist and is a patrimonial group with limited membership (about 230, I think).  Today, they manage their assets-financial and real estate.  No mention is made of their various careers and jobs.  Assuming that at some point in the distant past, these members had a ironmonger ancestor, it does not necessarily follow that today they would still be working with iron. Suzanne Collins Matson

Yes, I think it's important to look back at the work that's already been done and the information that we have at hand, as well as research further. I'm forwarding this next part of my response to the family of Jacob Holtzclaw and his paternal line's involvement with the iron industry, but I've had no luck in it being posted after many tries. This message that I sent last night also did not appear today: Jacob Holtzclaw's father, Hans Henrich Holtzclaw, was admitted to the Guild of Smelterers and Hammersmiths in 1664, but became a schoolteacher later, I think around 1667. He was the schoolmaster at Trupbach from 1667-1670 and was the schoolmaster there again after 1681. His eldest son, Johannes, became the schoolmaster at Trupbach after his father in 1693. From 1671 to 1680, he was the schoolmaster at Krombach. So, Jacob's father was both a teacher and an iron worker simultaneously. Hans Henrich Holtzclaw had 15 siblings. I'll deal with the brothers that were involved with the iron industry here: 1. Johann Holtzclaw b. 1640--admitted to the Guild Smelterers and Hammersmiths in 1656 Johann's sons, Tillman and Johannes, were also members of the Guild of Smelterers and Hammersmiths and were in the iron industry at Muesenershuetten. BC Holtzclaw states that Johannes was connected with the iron industry all of his life. 2. Johannes b. 1637--his godfather was Johannes Schutt of Muesenershuetten, part owner of the ironworks at Muesenershuetten and the Hardt. 3. Ebert Holtzclaw b. 1645--Member of the Guild of Smelterers and Hammersmith in 1658 4. Johann Henrich Holtzclaw b. 1651-2--Member of the Guild of Smelterers and Hammersmiths in 1671. He was a moulder and smelterer and was in the iron industry all of his life "becoming an associate justice both of the Court of Mines and, also, of the Court of the Hain." Jacob Holtzclaw's grandfather, Johannes Holtzclaw, was a teacher and he was also part owner of the Schneppenkauten Hammer from about 1632 to 1653. He was a teacher and he was part owner of the ironworks simultaneously. Jacob's paternal line via the Holtzclaws most definitely was connected to the iron industry. Jacob's maternal line has even more extensive involvement in the iron industry as his grandmother was probably Hebel, the daughter of Henrich Flender Muess of Schneppenkauten. We can trace Hebel Muess's ancestry back to Cone Busch b. ca 1400 and the owner of the Haardt iron works in 1444. This iron works, which included a hammer and smelter, was co-owned by a Busch, possibly Cone's father, and his sister, Else Sel. There is evidence that this was in operation as early as 1375. Jacob Holtzclaw is descended from 2 of Cone Busch's sons, Hen and Gotthard Busch. Hilla Busch, the daughter of Gotthard Busch, married Gerhard Busch, the son of Hen above. Jacob Holtzclaw's mother, Gertrud Solbach, is also a descendant of Gotthard Busch. She's also a descendant of the Fick, Patt, Muess, Muenker, Shutte, Flender, and Haardt families, all of whom were intimately connected to the iron industry. BC Holtzclaw states that the Fick family "were among the most prominent pioneer iron-masters in Nassau-Siegen, being founders of at least five ironworks between 1400 and 1475, Muenkershutten and Fickenhuetten in the Wiedenau township; Dilnhuetten in the Bottenbach township; Geisweid in the Klafeld township; and Dilnhenrichuetten (later called the Sighutte) in the Siegen township." I'll list the various iron hammers and smelts in the general area of the First Colony next, but it's late!! Barb Price In a message dated 11/10/2008 11:48:29 Pacific Standard Time, drcary@cox.net writes: Not being of the First Colonists, I still have found this discussion interesting. As it appears that not all the occupations have been clearly identified for the first colonists, and probably all the others on the Germanna list, it would be good if folks looked through their material, just as Barb has done, and see what they have on occupations. Then, with sharing, perhaps a complete list of occupations may be found. Parents of the immigrants also would be neat to know. As I do research on ancestors in German Church Records, I have noted that the occupation is not always in a marriage, birth, or death record pertaining to an individual. Sometimes it appears almost everytime the ancestor appears. Other times is rarely is noted. The grandfather of my Katz immigrant was one that I thought I would never find. He had 17 children. Eventually, I found where he had "bauer" after his name. I first found this when he was named as a Godparent in a baptismal record. With the Katz family, I never failed to find the occupation all the way back to about 1550. Before that, military and tax records were necessary to extend the family back another hundred years. The surname was well merited as the village at times seemed to be populated by nothing but Katz. 25 per cent of the soldiers killed in each World War carried the surname. Their pictures, with the exception of one, hang in the hall outside the city administrator's office. Cary ----- Original Message ----- From: <RockCatt@aol.com> To: <wwallace@muskingum.edu>; <germanna_colonies@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 11:02 PM Subject: Re: [GERMANNA] First Colony Not Miners? My thoughts exactly! There may not have been "miners" in the First Colony, but I can assure you that many of them had the mining industry in their blood. Jacob Holtzclaw's ancestors were involved in mining, mines and iron hammers from the early 1400's as were the Fischbachs. I think that what we had with the 1714 Immigrants was a community, if you will, with carpenters, a blacksmith, a school teacher, a pastor, farmers along with their involvement with the mining industry, and their ancestor's involvement. Jacob Holtzclaw's father was a schoolteacher, but he was also a member of the Guild of Smelterers and Hammersmiths, so was his grandfather. I also think that we have to keep in mind that being in the iron industry, such as a hammersmith, was probably not the only job that they had as they could not always work at that job. I was conducting research a couple of years ago about Buschhuetten, the Iron Hammer owned by Jacob Holtzclaw's ancestors from 1486 to 1746, that's 260 years! The hammer did not operate every day, in fact, its operation depended on enough water, enough charcoal, enough pig iron and enough money. The operation of the hammer could also be limited by the Prince in power, he controlled the number of hammer days. If he thought that the hammer was requiring too many trees to be cut down to operate the blower, he would limit the number of days of operation. Hence, many of the ironworks owners were farmers, too, which balanced the economy of the area as well. Here's the list of the men from the First Colony, their occupations and their involvement with the mining industry: Brombach/Brumback, Melchior/Melcherd, b. 1685 at Musen (came as a bachelor) I'm not sure of his occupation, but his grandfather was a carpenter and joiner. Cuntze/Koontz, Jost b. 1674 at Nierderndorf Member of the Steelsmiths and Toolmakers Guild of Ferndorf. His father was a toolmaker and so were his 3 brothers. Fischbach/Fishback, Philip b. 1661 at Seelbach--not sure of his occupation, but his ancestors owned Hammers in Nierderndorf from the 1400's, Tyl van Fispe, his earliest ancestor and they were active in the iron industry for centuries. Haeger/Häger, Rev. Johann Henrich b. 1644 at Antzhausen Heide/Heite/Hitt, Peter/Deiter b. ca 1680-83 at Rehbach--occupation unkown Hoffmann/Hoffman/Huffman, Johannes b. 1692 at Eisern (came as a bachelor to VA) Eisern--not sure of his occupation, but father was a fuhrmann, an exporter of iron goods and his ancestors were all admitted as smelterers to the Guild of Smelterers and Hammersmiths. -BC Holtzclaw states that this means that they were part owners of a smelter or ironworks, possibly the iron works at Eisern Holzklau/Holtzclaw, Hans Jacob b. 1683 at Trupbach-- His occupation was schoolteacher, but his father was first admitted to the Guild of Smelterers and Hammersmiths in 1664, later he quit this job and became a schoolmaster. Jacob's grandfather, and several of his uncles, were members of the Guild of H ammersmiths and Smelterers, and he was also a schoolteacher. Jacob's grandmother, Hebel Muess, was descended from the Busch and Flender families, associated with iron and ironworks from the 1400's, his ancestor, Gotthard Busch, was "one of the wealthiest and most enterprising iron-masters of the 16th century in Nassau-Siegen" per BC Holtzclaw. He's also descended from the Patt and Fick families, also associated with the iron industry from the 1300's. Kemper/Camper, Johannes b. 1692 at Muesen (came as a bachelor)--Not sure of his occupation, but his father was a church elder at Musen and his grandfather was a smith as was his great grandfather and his ancestors prior to that. Their name was Schmith, Smyt and Schmidt because of their trade. Merdten/Martin, Johnan Jost/John Joseph b. 1691 at Muesen --I don't know his occupation, but his grandfather, Jacob Merten, was an Associate Justice of the Court of the Mines. Several of his ancestors were connected with the customs service. Otterbach/Utterback, Johann Hermann b. 1664 at Trupbach--His occupation was Fuhrmann, or a middle man in the export of iron. His grandfather was a member of the Guild of Smelterers and Hammersmiths as a Huettenknecht, a handy man around the forges. Richter/Rector, Johann Jacob b. 1674 at Trupbach--Admitted to the Guild of Steelsmiths and Toolmakers of the Freudenberg District as a Toolmaker on 7 Jan 1712 per BC Holtzclaw. Spielmann/Spilman, Johannes b. 1679 at Oberschelden--I'm not sure of his occupation, but his ancestor was a window maker. Weber/Weaver, Johann Henrich b. 1667 at Eisern--I'm not sure of his occupation Half of the First Colony had some involvement with the iron industry and like I said before, they may not have been actual miners, but I can't help but believe that they knew the industry. Barb Price In a message dated 11/9/2008 19:42:43 Pacific Standard Time, wwallace@muskingum.edu writes: Suszanne, How do you understand Hans Jacob's ancestor's connection to the Haardt Ironworks (Ancestry and Desendants ..Pg.230 ff)? I am not suggesting that the First Colonists were miners, just that ironworks appear to be a family business back several generations especially on the maternal side. Julie ----- Original Message Follows ----- > > I am not throwing Albrecht, Alexander Spotswood or de > Graffenried into the trash. I don't think John is > either-but he can answer for himself. > > Albrecht may be the only one who could have claimed to be > a miner. I doubt Spotswood ever did any mining work on > his own. No doubt he was looking for silver-but with > others supplying the labor. My understanding of John's > statements was that the First Colony people themselves > were not miners based on the known information about their > livelihoods before their arrival in the Virginia Colony. > > Speaking specifically of the Holtzclaw/Holzklau family: > Hans Jacob Holtzklau was a school teacher as were his > grandfather, father and brother Johannes. Going back into > the records at the Munster archives, it seems the > Holzklaus were farmers and/or overseers on land owned by a > Catholic convent near Oberholzklau, plus a few who were > beer sellers and bakers. The direct line ancestors seemed > to be in other jobs than smelting iron ore. > > Has anyone researched the amount of iron ore produced in > the Siegen area by year? It might be interesting to > discover when the ironworks were most active. > > Suzanne Colliins Matson > > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Craig Kilby <persisto@earthlink.net> > To: germanna_colonies@rootsweb.com > Sent: Sunday, November 9, 2008 12:45:59 PM > Subject: [GERMANNA] First Colony Not Miners? > > Whoah! Back up the bus! > > I seem to recall John Blankenbaker, some years ago on this > same list, in one of his thousand + notes, gave a lot of > thought and research into this very topic, particularly > about Joseph Albrecht, Gov. Spottswood and the imposter > "Baron" de Graffenried, (the founder of New Bern, > NC)....are we now throwing all of this into the trash? > > Craig Kilby > > On Nov 9, 2008, at 3:00 AM, > germanna_colonies-request@rootsweb.com wrote: > > > Subject: Re: [GERMANNA] Miners in the First Colony? > > (Part II) To: germanna_colonies@rootsweb.com > > Message-ID: > > <510931.52431.qm@web59503.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > > Are the sources Willis Kemper used known? > > > > Rev. J. Silor Garrison gave the same information in his > > book History of the Reformed Church in Virginia, > > 1714-1940 which was published in 1948.? Rev. Garrison > did not give his sources. > > > Since no one has responded, perhaps there is no proof > > that they were miners. > > > > Suzanne Collins Matson > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: "john.blankenbaker@comcast.net" > > john.blankenbaker@comcast.net Sent: Wednesday, November > > 5, 2008 6:48:05 AM Subject: Re: [GERMANNA] Miners in the > First Colony? (Part II) > > > Suzanne, > > Willis Kemper really started the ball rolling with the > > idea that the First Colony consisted of miners. > > > > -- > > John.Blankenbaker@comcast.net > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > To contact the GERMANNA_COLONIES list administrator, > > send an email to GERMANNA_COLONIES-admin@rootsweb.com. > > > > To post a message to the GERMANNA_COLONIES mailing list, > > send an email to GERMANNA_COLONIES@rootsweb.com. > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > GERMANNA_COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word > > "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and > > the body of the email with no additional text. > > > > > > End of GERMANNA_COLONIES Digest, Vol 3, Issue 313 > > ************************************************* > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMANNA_COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the > body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMANNA_COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the > body of the message bill and julie wallace ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GERMANNA_COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message **************AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and all other Holiday needs. Search Now. (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1212792382x1200798498/aol?redir=htt p://searchblog.aol.com/2008/11/04/happy-holidays-from -aol-search/?ncid=emlcntussear00000001) ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GERMANNA_COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message **************AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and all other Holiday needs. Search Now. (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1212792382x1200798498/aol?redir=http://searchblog.aol.com/2008/11/04/happy-holidays-from -aol-search/?ncid=emlcntussear00000001)

Here's the quote from the book I cited. "The guild constitution, to which Fleger [the member] had subscribed, provided that wife as well as master must dhow proof of four irreproachable grandpartne; and inasmuch as a master's children were automatically eligible for guild acceptance and support, Flege's determination to marry the Helmsen girl demanded of the tinsmiths that they sponsor the grandchildren of a bastard before the community" pp. 73-74 ----- Original Message ----- From: <john.blankenbaker@comcast.net> To: <germanna_colonies@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 3:07 PM Subject: Re: [GERMANNA] Fw: Questions about guilds in Siegen area > Re: Guild Membership > I do not think that having a father in a guild meant > that a son would automatically become a member > also. Like all things political, a father might have > some influence is getting a son admitted as an > apprentice. Guilds limited the number of members > to help insure that there would be enough work for > everyone to do. Additionally, some guilds did not > admit sons whose fathers were in some occupations. > For example, a gravedigger's son would have a hard > time to gain admittance to most guilds. Before one > could be admitted as a "master." he had to pass a > severe training course. An analogy might be the > medical or legal profession today. Having a doctor as a > father did not entitle one to become a doctor. It might > help to being admitted to "medical school." > > -- > John.Blankenbaker@comcast.net > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMANNA_COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Quite ironically, I have been cataloging to the Mary Ball Washington Museum's library internet site all of the articles from the Northern Neck of Virginia Historical Magazine, and just came across an article with the title "The Spotswood Iron Empire" by Col. Robert D. Burhans, in the 1971 issue of the magazine. The first sentence of the 4th paragraph reads "The Spotswood story of iron development is closely interwined with the early German immigrants to Virginia..." and continued much of our well known story. It could almost have been written by our own John Blankenbaker, as it correctly sums up the "many sided Spotswood" and his claims to his superiors in London that he was seeking silver, when in fact he was establishing an iron-making community at Germanna. If anyone would like copies of this article please contact me off list. Craig Kilby

Not being of the First Colonists, I still have found this discussion interesting. As it appears that not all the occupations have been clearly identified for the first colonists, and probably all the others on the Germanna list, it would be good if folks looked through their material, just as Barb has done, and see what they have on occupations. Then, with sharing, perhaps a complete list of occupations may be found. Parents of the immigrants also would be neat to know. As I do research on ancestors in German Church Records, I have noted that the occupation is not always in a marriage, birth, or death record pertaining to an individual. Sometimes it appears almost everytime the ancestor appears. Other times is rarely is noted. The grandfather of my Katz immigrant was one that I thought I would never find. He had 17 children. Eventually, I found where he had "bauer" after his name. I first found this when he was named as a Godparent in a baptismal record. With the Katz family, I never failed to find the occupation all the way back to about 1550. Before that, military and tax records were necessary to extend the family back another hundred years. The surname was well merited as the village at times seemed to be populated by nothing but Katz. 25 per cent of the soldiers killed in each World War carried the surname. Their pictures, with the exception of one, hang in the hall outside the city administrator's office. Cary ----- Original Message ----- From: <RockCatt@aol.com> To: <wwallace@muskingum.edu>; <germanna_colonies@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 11:02 PM Subject: Re: [GERMANNA] First Colony Not Miners? My thoughts exactly! There may not have been "miners" in the First Colony, but I can assure you that many of them had the mining industry in their blood. Jacob Holtzclaw's ancestors were involved in mining, mines and iron hammers from the early 1400's as were the Fischbachs. I think that what we had with the 1714 Immigrants was a community, if you will, with carpenters, a blacksmith, a school teacher, a pastor, farmers along with their involvement with the mining industry, and their ancestor's involvement. Jacob Holtzclaw's father was a schoolteacher, but he was also a member of the Guild of Smelterers and Hammersmiths, so was his grandfather. I also think that we have to keep in mind that being in the iron industry, such as a hammersmith, was probably not the only job that they had as they could not always work at that job. I was conducting research a couple of years ago about Buschhuetten, the Iron Hammer owned by Jacob Holtzclaw's ancestors from 1486 to 1746, that's 260 years! The hammer did not operate every day, in fact, its operation depended on enough water, enough charcoal, enough pig iron and enough money. The operation of the hammer could also be limited by the Prince in power, he controlled the number of hammer days. If he thought that the hammer was requiring too many trees to be cut down to operate the blower, he would limit the number of days of operation. Hence, many of the ironworks owners were farmers, too, which balanced the economy of the area as well. Here's the list of the men from the First Colony, their occupations and their involvement with the mining industry: Brombach/Brumback, Melchior/Melcherd, b. 1685 at Musen (came as a bachelor) I'm not sure of his occupation, but his grandfather was a carpenter and joiner. Cuntze/Koontz, Jost b. 1674 at Nierderndorf Member of the Steelsmiths and Toolmakers Guild of Ferndorf. His father was a toolmaker and so were his 3 brothers. Fischbach/Fishback, Philip b. 1661 at Seelbach--not sure of his occupation, but his ancestors owned Hammers in Nierderndorf from the 1400's, Tyl van Fispe, his earliest ancestor and they were active in the iron industry for centuries. Haeger/Häger, Rev. Johann Henrich b. 1644 at Antzhausen Heide/Heite/Hitt, Peter/Deiter b. ca 1680-83 at Rehbach--occupation unkown Hoffmann/Hoffman/Huffman, Johannes b. 1692 at Eisern (came as a bachelor to VA) Eisern--not sure of his occupation, but father was a fuhrmann, an exporter of iron goods and his ancestors were all admitted as smelterers to the Guild of Smelterers and Hammersmiths. -BC Holtzclaw states that this means that they were part owners of a smelter or ironworks, possibly the iron works at Eisern Holzklau/Holtzclaw, Hans Jacob b. 1683 at Trupbach-- His occupation was schoolteacher, but his father was first admitted to the Guild of Smelterers and Hammersmiths in 1664, later he quit this job and became a schoolmaster. Jacob's grandfather, and several of his uncles, were members of the Guild of H ammersmiths and Smelterers, and he was also a schoolteacher. Jacob's grandmother, Hebel Muess, was descended from the Busch and Flender families, associated with iron and ironworks from the 1400's, his ancestor, Gotthard Busch, was "one of the wealthiest and most enterprising iron-masters of the 16th century in Nassau-Siegen" per BC Holtzclaw. He's also descended from the Patt and Fick families, also associated with the iron industry from the 1300's. Kemper/Camper, Johannes b. 1692 at Muesen (came as a bachelor)--Not sure of his occupation, but his father was a church elder at Musen and his grandfather was a smith as was his great grandfather and his ancestors prior to that. Their name was Schmith, Smyt and Schmidt because of their trade. Merdten/Martin, Johnan Jost/John Joseph b. 1691 at Muesen --I don't know his occupation, but his grandfather, Jacob Merten, was an Associate Justice of the Court of the Mines. Several of his ancestors were connected with the customs service. Otterbach/Utterback, Johann Hermann b. 1664 at Trupbach--His occupation was Fuhrmann, or a middle man in the export of iron. His grandfather was a member of the Guild of Smelterers and Hammersmiths as a Huettenknecht, a handy man around the forges. Richter/Rector, Johann Jacob b. 1674 at Trupbach--Admitted to the Guild of Steelsmiths and Toolmakers of the Freudenberg District as a Toolmaker on 7 Jan 1712 per BC Holtzclaw. Spielmann/Spilman, Johannes b. 1679 at Oberschelden--I'm not sure of his occupation, but his ancestor was a window maker. Weber/Weaver, Johann Henrich b. 1667 at Eisern--I'm not sure of his occupation Half of the First Colony had some involvement with the iron industry and like I said before, they may not have been actual miners, but I can't help but believe that they knew the industry. Barb Price In a message dated 11/9/2008 19:42:43 Pacific Standard Time, wwallace@muskingum.edu writes: Suszanne, How do you understand Hans Jacob's ancestor's connection to the Haardt Ironworks (Ancestry and Desendants ..Pg.230 ff)? I am not suggesting that the First Colonists were miners, just that ironworks appear to be a family business back several generations especially on the maternal side. Julie ----- Original Message Follows ----- > > I am not throwing Albrecht, Alexander Spotswood or de > Graffenried into the trash. I don't think John is > either-but he can answer for himself. > > Albrecht may be the only one who could have claimed to be > a miner. I doubt Spotswood ever did any mining work on > his own. No doubt he was looking for silver-but with > others supplying the labor. My understanding of John's > statements was that the First Colony people themselves > were not miners based on the known information about their > livelihoods before their arrival in the Virginia Colony. > > Speaking specifically of the Holtzclaw/Holzklau family: > Hans Jacob Holtzklau was a school teacher as were his > grandfather, father and brother Johannes. Going back into > the records at the Munster archives, it seems the > Holzklaus were farmers and/or overseers on land owned by a > Catholic convent near Oberholzklau, plus a few who were > beer sellers and bakers. The direct line ancestors seemed > to be in other jobs than smelting iron ore. > > Has anyone researched the amount of iron ore produced in > the Siegen area by year? It might be interesting to > discover when the ironworks were most active. > > Suzanne Colliins Matson > > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Craig Kilby <persisto@earthlink.net> > To: germanna_colonies@rootsweb.com > Sent: Sunday, November 9, 2008 12:45:59 PM > Subject: [GERMANNA] First Colony Not Miners? > > Whoah! Back up the bus! > > I seem to recall John Blankenbaker, some years ago on this > same list, in one of his thousand + notes, gave a lot of > thought and research into this very topic, particularly > about Joseph Albrecht, Gov. Spottswood and the imposter > "Baron" de Graffenried, (the founder of New Bern, > NC)....are we now throwing all of this into the trash? > > Craig Kilby > > On Nov 9, 2008, at 3:00 AM, > germanna_colonies-request@rootsweb.com wrote: > > > Subject: Re: [GERMANNA] Miners in the First Colony? > > (Part II) To: germanna_colonies@rootsweb.com > > Message-ID: > > <510931.52431.qm@web59503.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > > Are the sources Willis Kemper used known? > > > > Rev. J. Silor Garrison gave the same information in his > > book History of the Reformed Church in Virginia, > > 1714-1940 which was published in 1948.? Rev. Garrison > did not give his sources. > > > Since no one has responded, perhaps there is no proof > > that they were miners. > > > > Suzanne Collins Matson > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: "john.blankenbaker@comcast.net" > > john.blankenbaker@comcast.net Sent: Wednesday, November > > 5, 2008 6:48:05 AM Subject: Re: [GERMANNA] Miners in the > First Colony? (Part II) > > > Suzanne, > > Willis Kemper really started the ball rolling with the > > idea that the First Colony consisted of miners. > > > > -- > > John.Blankenbaker@comcast.net > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > To contact the GERMANNA_COLONIES list administrator, > > send an email to GERMANNA_COLONIES-admin@rootsweb.com. > > > > To post a message to the GERMANNA_COLONIES mailing list, > > send an email to GERMANNA_COLONIES@rootsweb.com. > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > GERMANNA_COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word > > "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and > > the body of the email with no additional text. > > > > > > End of GERMANNA_COLONIES Digest, Vol 3, Issue 313 > > ************************************************* > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMANNA_COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the > body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMANNA_COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the > body of the message bill and julie wallace ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GERMANNA_COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message **************AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and all other Holiday needs. Search Now. (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1212792382x1200798498/aol?redir=htt p://searchblog.aol.com/2008/11/04/happy-holidays-from -aol-search/?ncid=emlcntussear00000001) ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GERMANNA_COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Craig, My understanding of the 1714 group is that they were never involved with iron-making at Germanna.  There is some mention in one document that I am aware of that they were involved in quarrying.  I take this to mean working with stone, rocks, etc., not iron ore. I think Spotswood's initial interest was in silver but he had a difficult time getting an answer from London regarding his "take" from any silver found.  I think he wanted to know the profit possibility before he invested time, money and people in the venture.  Lt. Governor Spotswood was a prolific writer of letters to the London Board of Trade.  These letters provide interesting insights into a very complicated man. Suzanne Collins Matson   ________________________________ From: Craig Kilby <persisto@earthlink.net>   "The Spotswood Iron Empire" by Col. Robert D. Burhans,  in the 1971 issue of the magazine. The first sentence of the 4th paragraph reads "The Spotswood story of  iron development is closely interwined with the early German  immigrants to Virginia..." and continued much of our well known  story.  It could almost have been written by our own John  Blankenbaker, as it correctly sums up the "many sided Spotswood" and  his claims to his superiors in London that he was seeking silver,  when in fact he was establishing an iron-making community at  Germanna.  If anyone would like copies of this article please contact  me off list. Craig Kilby ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GERMANNA_COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

HI all, I keep reading this data and wish I could remember where I read some very interesting information this past year regarding this topic. I think it was on another list. Someone (?) did a research and came up with: supposedly: they were brought here to do mining, but alas the mining venture was never created and done by the immigrants, at least not like they, (owners) thought they were going to do. IT went on to say that it was like 30 years before they actually found enough metal to mine and it never turned into a properous venture. I have not posted because I am still trying to remember where I read it. I do not think it was at the library but it may have been. I really think I read it on line on another list. Much of what I read made sense for the times and conditions that were taking place. Maybe my comments will jar someone elses memory becuase I think someone else on this list was on the list I read it on. I was working on attempting to establish linkage to the Hoffman line of this group and still am. Susi ************** AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and all other Holiday needs. Search Now. (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1212792382x1200798498/aol?redir=http://searchblog.aol.com/2008/11/04/happy-holidays-from -aol-search/?ncid=emlcntussear00000001)