Craig -- I loved your story! Hope to see you at the reunion this summer. Cathi

In answer to the question below, Col. Nathaniel Blakiston, the agent for Virginia in London, wrote to Spotswood. -- John.Blankenbaker@comcast.net -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: "Michael L. Oddenino" <oddlaw@pacbell.net> > John, > > Who told Spotswood the Germans were coming?

It was requested that I give a time line for the First Colony. Here is my estimate: Late spring of 1713: the people left Nassau-Siegen, apparently not in a single group. Summer of 1713: the people arrived in London. January 1714: they left for Virginia on a unknown ship. Late March 1714: Spotswood finds out, for the first time, that Germans are coming. April 1714: they arrived in Virginia. 1716: they started mining operations at the silver mine. 1718, early in the year: they were instructed to search for iron. During 1718: the search for iron continued and a statement in a courthouse says they worked until December of 1718 at mining and quarrying. Also during the year they made their commitment to buy land at "Germantown." By December of 1718, Spotswood says he spent about 60 pounds on the endeavor so there was no iron furnace. January 1719: they moved to Germantown. Pastor Haeger may not have moved at this time. By this time they had completed the four years of service they committed themselves to in London. Someone else built the iron furnace after they had left. -- John.Blankenbaker@comcast.net

RE; Landed - NC vs Va First, I have not read the Spotwood document (15 Spotswood, vol. II, page 196). I just did a cut/copy/pasted off internet site , so certainly can't comment on Spotwood's Ironworks However, the letter addressed to the Commissioners of Trade & Plantation, dated Feb 7, 1715 looks like some sort of official document. I was just trying to figure out why the Tuscaruro Indians would have been referenced in association with first colony folks, as I have never heard of a Tuscaruro Indian conflict in Germanna area of Va. If they landed in Va safely, just don't understand why the reference to the Tuscaruro Indians. The Tuscaruro Indian Wars occurred in NC in the 1712-15 time frame and many people were killed and others fled the area. Of course, we know both Swiss & German folks in New Bern NC area during the Indian Wars. Perhaps this reference was just used to get Spotwood to "pay the freight" It certainly does not say they were in NC, but certainly implies they were in danger ... "they arriving also here just at a time when the Tuscaruro Indians departed from the Treaty" & "I did both in Compassion to those poor Strangers and in regard to the safety of the Country" -- Fred Duncan 136 Kirk Adams Road Angier, North Carolina 27501

I have a question concerning where the First Germanna folks landed in America. I recently found a reference (see below) to the Tuscaruro Indians. Didn't the Tuscaruro Indian Wars occur in NC ? I know Graffenriedt established settlement in New Bern, NC, which was made up of both Swiss & German folks. Unless, the Tuscaruro were active in the Germanna area of Va., this makes it sound like they landed in NC. Virginia, Feb'ry 7, 1715. To the L'ds Comm'rs of Trade and Plantation: . . . As to the other Settlement, named Germanna, there are about forty Germans, Men, Women, and Children, who, having quitted their native Country upon the invitation of the Herr Graffenriedt, and being grievously dissapointed by his failure to perform his Engagements to them, and they arriving also here just at a time when the Tuscaruro Indians departed from the Treaty they had made with this Government to settle upon its Northern Frontiers, I did both in Compassion to those poor Strangers and in regard to the safety of the Country, place them together upon a piece of Land, several Miles without the Inhabitants, where I built them Habitations, and subsisted them until they were able, by their own Labour, to provide for themselves, and I presume I may, without a Crime or Misdemeanor, endeavor to put them in an honest way of paying their Just Debts. . .15<http://docsouth.unc.edu/nc/graffenried/graffenried.html#n36> 15 Spotswood, vol. II, page 196. This refers to his employment of them in building and operating *his* iron furnace. http://docsouth.unc.edu/nc/graffenried/graffenried.html http://newbern.cpclib.org/research/settlers.htm On Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 9:59 AM, <john.blankenbaker@comcast.net> wrote: > It was requested that I give a time line for the First Colony. Here is my > estimate: > > Late spring of 1713: the people left Nassau-Siegen, apparently not in a > single group. > Summer of 1713: the people arrived in London. > January 1714: they left for Virginia on a unknown ship. > Late March 1714: Spotswood finds out, for the first time, that Germans are > coming. > April 1714: they arrived in Virginia. > 1716: they started mining operations at the silver mine. > 1718, early in the year: they were instructed to search for iron. > During 1718: the search for iron continued and a statement in a > courthouse says they worked until December of 1718 at mining > and quarrying. Also during the year they made their commitment > to buy land at "Germantown." By December of 1718, Spotswood > says he spent about 60 pounds on the endeavor so > there was no iron furnace. > January 1719: they moved to Germantown. Pastor Haeger may not > have moved at this time. By this time they had completed the > four years of service they committed themselves to in London. > > Someone else built the iron furnace after they had left. > > -- > John.Blankenbaker@comcast.net > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMANNA_COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > -- Fred Duncan 136 Kirk Adams Road Angier, North Carolina 27501

One point I would like to make about the departure of the First Colony people from their homes.  Holtzklau was granted permission to leave in July 1713.  And I believe Haeger left some days before him in the night according to Rev. Knabenschuh's letter.  So I think some left later than you list in your time line.  How long do you think the trip from the Siegen area would have taken for them to reach London?  And were they actually in London?  Suzanne ________________________________ From: "john.blankenbaker@comcast.net" <john.blankenbaker@comcast.net> To: germanna_colonies@rootsweb.com Sent: Saturday, November 15, 2008 9:59:15 AM Subject: [GERMANNA] Time Line for First Colony It was requested that I give a time line for the First Colony. Here is my estimate: Late spring of 1713: the  people left Nassau-Siegen, apparently not in a single group. Summer of 1713: the people arrived in London. January 1714: they left for Virginia on a unknown ship. Late March 1714: Spotswood finds out, for the first time, that Germans are coming. April 1714: they arrived in Virginia. 1716: they started mining operations at the silver mine.. 1718, early in the year: they were instructed to search for iron. During 1718: the search for iron continued and a statement in a       courthouse says they worked until December of 1718 at mining       and quarrying. Also during the year they made their commitment       to buy land at "Germantown." By December of 1718, Spotswood       says he spent about 60 pounds on the endeavor so       there was no iron furnace. January 1719: they moved to Germantown. Pastor Haeger may not       have moved at this time. By this time they had completed the       four years of service they committed themselves to in London. Someone else built the iron furnace after they had left. -- John.Blankenbaker@comcast.net ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GERMANNA_COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

John, Who told Spotswood the Germans were coming? Also, how do you like the new site? www.germanna.org It's still a work in progress but it will be quite a resource as it gets developed. Thanks, Michael john.blankenbaker@comcast.net wrote: > It was requested that I give a time line for the First Colony. Here is my estimate: > > Late spring of 1713: the people left Nassau-Siegen, apparently not in a single group. > Summer of 1713: the people arrived in London. > January 1714: they left for Virginia on a unknown ship. > Late March 1714: Spotswood finds out, for the first time, that Germans are coming. > April 1714: they arrived in Virginia. > 1716: they started mining operations at the silver mine. > 1718, early in the year: they were instructed to search for iron. > During 1718: the search for iron continued and a statement in a > courthouse says they worked until December of 1718 at mining > and quarrying. Also during the year they made their commitment > to buy land at "Germantown." By December of 1718, Spotswood > says he spent about 60 pounds on the endeavor so > there was no iron furnace. > January 1719: they moved to Germantown. Pastor Haeger may not > have moved at this time. By this time they had completed the > four years of service they committed themselves to in London. > > Someone else built the iron furnace after they had left. > > -- > John.Blankenbaker@comcast.net > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GERMANNA_COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >

Missouri "War of the Rebellion" soldiers: Utz, Ballenger, Rector, Kemper, Blankenbecker, Holtzclaw, Holsclaw, Hoffman, Hoffmann, Etc.( just to name a very few.) http://www.missouridivision-scv.org/ Left side to MO-Confederates, scroll down to Germanic Surnames in Gray <http://www.missouridivision-scv.org/german.htm>

Alexander Spotswood was in contact with Nathaniel Blakiston because AS was trying to get the royal share of gold and silver mines determined. When Graffenried returned to Europe, he had just visited with AS. It appears that AS told Graffenried to look up Blakiston. One reason was that AS and Graffenried each were obtaining an interest in the purported silver mine. When Graffenried arrived in London, he fell in contact with the Germans probably through Albrecht. Graffenried, being broke, advised the Germans to go back to Germany. He said the Germans were an embarrassment to him because he had not invited all of them to come on. Apparently G contacted B to see if he could help. B, being aware that AS might be needing miners, concocted the deal whereby the Germans pooled their money and the balance of 150 pounds would be paid by AS. As has been pointed out, AS knew nothing about this arrangement. When he did learn (about the time the Germans were arriving in Virginia), he told B that he thought B must be hopeful of getting the royal share of silver and gold mines approved or else B would not have sent the Germans along. So much for the iron mining It was not until three and years later that the Germans started searching for iron. Probably Graffenried contacted Albrecht and learned about the Germans. Graffenried looked up Blakiston and told him the situation. Spotswood's letters to Blakiston had probably mentioned Graffenried so Blakiston knew who Graffenried was. -- John.Blankenbaker@comcast.net -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: Suzanne Matson <holtzclaw.research@yahoo.com> > Do we know how Col. Blakiston knew about the Germans?  Was he acquainted with > Graffenried, Albrecht, Michel, etc.?  > > Suzanne >

Since we seem to have taken to this subject, may I add that there are places in Forsyth County, N.C. near the Yadkin River basin where you can still see ruts that exist from traffic on the Great Wagon Road in the mid-1700's. Since their German made wagons held all of their possessions, I have no doubt that they were heavy. But, probably the repeated wear is responsible. The same is true of places along the Oregon Trail. > > > ************************************************* >

Do we know how Col. Blakiston knew about the Germans?  Was he acquainted with Graffenried, Albrecht, Michel, etc.?  Suzanne ________________________________ From: "john.blankenbaker@comcast.net" <john.blankenbaker@comcast.net> To: germanna_colonies@rootsweb.com Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 7:37:26 PM Subject: [GERMANNA] Did Spotswood Bring the 1714ers to Virginia It is often stated that Alexander Spotswood had Christoph von Graffenried recruit miners for his (Spotswood's) use. This is a statement that totally misses the mark. The recruiting began in 1710 before Spotswood was even in Virginia. The instigators of the recruitment were Graffenried and Franz Michel who were employees and part owners of George Ritter and Company, a Swiss Company. Michel thought, as a result of his explorations in America, that he had found silver mines. To develop these mines, they hired Johann Justus Albrecht to recruit miners from the Siegen area. Albrecht was to buy tools for use. Albrecht had problems in recruiting people. He finally resorted to a unilateral agreement in which he promised to pay "dividends" to designated clerical people in the Siegen area. He hoped that this act of goodwill would induce people to think favorably of his endeavor. We have a mystery as to why forty-odd Germans left in 1713. Graffenried says he told them that one or two could come to have a "look see." When the Germans and Graffenried were both in London in the summer and fall of 1713, he recommended that they go back to Germany. The Germans felt that they could not do this. They had about half of their transportation costs. Col Blakiston, agent for Virginia in London, was aware that Spotswood thought he had (a partial) interest in a silver mine. So Blakiston, who was aware that the Germans were in London, said that Spotswood would pay 150 pounds of their transportation costs and the Germans would work for Spotswood for four years. The Germans were at sea before Spotswood became aware that he had been obligated to pay the 150 pounds. Germans were just about to land in Virginia before Spotswood found that he had forty-odd "employees." -- John.Blankenbaker@comcast.net ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GERMANNA_COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

It is often stated that Alexander Spotswood had Christoph von Graffenried recruit miners for his (Spotswood's) use. This is a statement that totally misses the mark. The recruiting began in 1710 before Spotswood was even in Virginia. The instigators of the recruitment were Graffenried and Franz Michel who were employees and part owners of George Ritter and Company, a Swiss Company. Michel thought, as a result of his explorations in America, that he had found silver mines. To develop these mines, they hired Johann Justus Albrecht to recruit miners from the Siegen area. Albrecht was to buy tools for use. Albrecht had problems in recruiting people. He finally resorted to a unilateral agreement in which he promised to pay "dividends" to designated clerical people in the Siegen area. He hoped that this act of goodwill would induce people to think favorably of his endeavor. We have a mystery as to why forty-odd Germans left in 1713. Graffenried says he told them that one or two could come to have a "look see." When the Germans and Graffenried were both in London in the summer and fall of 1713, he recommended that they go back to Germany. The Germans felt that they could not do this. They had about half of their transportation costs. Col Blakiston, agent for Virginia in London, was aware that Spotswood thought he had (a partial) interest in a silver mine. So Blakiston, who was aware that the Germans were in London, said that Spotswood would pay 150 pounds of their transportation costs and the Germans would work for Spotswood for four years. The Germans were at sea before Spotswood became aware that he had been obligated to pay the 150 pounds. Germans were just about to land in Virginia before Spotswood found that he had forty-odd "employees." -- John.Blankenbaker@comcast.net

I think it would be false to deduce that the deep wagon ruts imply that iron was being carried. There are a lot of other things to be carried such as wood, charcoal, leather. I lived as a young boy in Oklahoma where there were dirt roads. After a wet spell, the road became impossible because of the deep ruts. In the tax lists for Trupbach at an early age, one of the most valuable things, which most heads of households had, was Haubergs. A Hauberg was where oak trees were grown for the bark (used in tanning leather), wood (used in making charcoal), and small branches (used for heating and cooking). While the trees were growing up, grain was planted and harvested between the trees. Iron mines are never mentioned as property. Nor do the occupations, such as are known, ever mention miners. Trupbach probably sent more people to America than any other \ village in 1713. -- John.Blankenbaker@comcast.net

Several years ago I heard a talk about the early roads in Virginia.  The speaker said that when you are talking about an early road you need to keep in mind that the road may have been moved from time to time.  This because the road would become so rutted that wagons could not pass along because the bed of the wagon was scraping the ground in the center of the road.  The ruts were that deep! My mother talked of the ruts in the dirt road in front of their house in SC that were sometimes so bad they were impassable.  The road crew would come along, scrape the road and fill in the ruts periodically.  These roads mainly carried cotton, grain and food crops.. I don't think you could automatically assume that iron was the cause of the ruts.  I think it was more likely from constant use. Suzanne ________________________________ From: Cary Anderson <drcary@cox.net> To: germanna_colonies@rootsweb.com Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 5:14:45 PM Subject: Re: [GERMANNA] Fwd: John Hoffman and the Fuhrmann In the area of Siegen, it was most likely that a Fuhrman was a carrier of iron or products made of steel.  There is a road half axle deep, almost, where the carters moved heavy products from Siegen land to elsewhere.  I hesitate to say it was steel and iron tools, but I do not know of any other trade product at this time.  Maybe someone else remembers the history of that old road we saw several years ago on the Germanna tour. Cary ----- Original Message ----- From: "Suzanne Matson" <holtzclaw.research@yahoo.com> To: <germanna_colonies@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 9:04 PM Subject: Re: [GERMANNA] Fwd: John Hoffman and the Fuhrmann Barb, Fuhrmann does not mean "traveling dealer in iron products". I consulted three different German dictionaries including a German dictionary that lists occupations. Fuhrmann means a carter, carrier or driver. BC Holtzclaw is wrong in his definition. The word for iron is Eisen. Suzanne Collins Matson ________________________________ From: "RockCatt@aol.com" <RockCatt@aol.com> To: Germanna_Colonies@rootsweb.com Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 9:35:03 PM Subject: [GERMANNA] Fwd: John Hoffman and the Fuhrmann ____________________________________ From: RockCatt To: germanna_colonies@rootsweb.com Sent: 11/10/2008 16:16:04 Pacific Standard Time Subj: Re: John Hoffman and the Fuhrmann John Hoffmann, the 1714 immigrant, also had ancestors that were in the iron industry: BC Holtclaw notes that the father of Johannes Hofmann, John Hoffman, the 1714 immigant, was "called "Fuhrmann" in this record," the christening record of John Hoffmann. BC also states: "Johannes Hofmann(this is the father of John) became a Siegen citizen in the same year, 1690, though he lived most of his life at Eisern later on. He was a Fuhrmann, or traveling dealer in iron products." I'm wondering if the Siegen citizenship record states exactly what Johannes Hofmann's job was and that he did deal in iron. I'll have to find that record to be sure, but it's certainly possible. Tillmann Hofmann, b. ca 1638, the father of Johannes Hofmann, Sr., and the grandfather of Johannes Hofmann, the 1714 Immigrant, was admitted to the Guild of Smelterers and Hammersmiths as a smelterer in 1661/2 when he inherited his father's property. Dietrich Hofmann, b. ca 1615, Tillmans' father, was admitted as smelterer to the Guild of Smelterers and Hammersmiths in 1647. BC Holtzclaw states that this shows "that he owned at least 6 "Days" or shares in some ironworks, probably the Eisern ironworks." Tillmann Hofmann, b. ca 1590, he possessed ironworks property and was admitted to the Guild of Smelterers and Hammersmiths in 1628/9. Barb Price In a message dated 11/10/2008 12:29:21 Pacific Standard Time, john.blankenbaker@comcast.net writes: People have been quoting the wrong interpretation of the German word "Fuhrmann." It does NOT mean a dealer in iron or an exporter of iron as B.C. Holtzclaw said it did. All good German dictionaries define it as a "carter," "conveyor," "hauler," or "freighter" without regard to what is being hauled. [The modern analogy would be that one drove a truck.] We know a little bit about the family of John Hoffman, Sr., the father of 1714 John, 1738 Henry, and William (who also came to America but to Pennsylvania). William left a diary in which he recorded many daily experiences. There is nothing in his writings which suggest iron. One might infer that William was a farmer and he does say that he owned a horse (only a few did). -- John.Blankenbaker@comcast.net ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GERMANNA_COLONIES-request@rootsweb..com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ____________________________________ AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and all other Holiday needs. _Search Now_ (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1212792382x1200798498/aol?redir=htt p://searchblog.aol.com/2008/11/04/happy-holidays-from-aol-searc h/?ncid=emlcntussear00000001) . **************AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and all other Holiday needs. Search Now. 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Well, I learned that I have a different dictionary-Langenscheidt's.  It is always good to look at more than one dictionary.  Good point about the Guild of Smelterers and Hammersmiths.  Your thoughts on that make sense.  I own some hammered aluminum trays that belonged to my grandmother.  These are handmade and your thoughts on the Guilds brought those to mind-useful, everyday items that people would have used in their homes.  I wonder if they also worked as wheelwrights? Spotswood paid half their passage to the Virginia colony-although he did not know they were coming until they were here.  There is a lot about Spotswood in the Journal of the Board of Trade in London and also in the Executive Journals of the Council of Virginia.  He was a prolific letter writer.   One point--the First Colony people did not leave together as a group as has been portrayed.  Rev. Haeger left without permission under cover of darkness.  Hans Jacob Holtzklau left some days later with permission.  When the others left isn't known.  Possibly some left with Haeger or with Holtzklau-it simply isn't known.  I would like to know how and where they met up in London since we know that Haeger and Holtzklau did not leave together.  What ship did they travel on to the Virginia colony?  Were they actually intending to come to Virginia? Or was it to the Carolinas?  Remember de Graffenried founded New Bern NC.  Where did the First Colony land in the Virginia colony?  There are so many unanswered questions. Suzanne ________________________________ From: Cary Anderson <drcary@cox.net> To: germanna_colonies@rootsweb.com Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 5:02:33 PM Subject: [GERMANNA] Schuldiener & Fuhrmann & Guild of Smelters and Hammersmiths I have followed the discussion regarding the occupation of the First Colonist.  Several things have been discussed. 1.  Guild of Smelterers and Hammersmiths. Barb, you know I like to see the German spelling of the terms as it helps me learn more of what I need to look for.  I know Hammerschmied[t] and I believe Schmelzarbeitter is a Smelter.  There would be Guilds for these workers.  Even though they are distinct from each other, it appears both belong to a joint guild.  First, one was an apprentice.  When the apprentice became somewhat knowledgeable about various parts of the craft, then he was tested. If he could satisfy the masters of the trade, then he would become a journeyman or fellow of the craft. Eventually, he might become skilled enough to acquire all the secrets of the craft and would be entitled to be called a master of the trade.     The Guild of Smelterers and Hammersmiths were not miners.  They were the ones who took the iron ore and processed it into useable products.     Anyone with a strong back, and even if one didn't have such, could work the mines.  There were no secrets to protect there that would allow anyone to become a man of means.     I believe the diaries of Jean de la Fontaine that remarks about what he encountered at Germanna to be true.  I have not read that part personally, but am well-acquainted with some of his writings.      What I do not know  is "Did Spottswood pay the transportation from Germany to Virginia?"  Not being a descendant of the First Colony, I sometimes drift off in discussions about them. Miners.  I would imagine that most men in the Siegen area knew about the iron mines.  Most had probably from time to time dug up some of the ore.  Even a schoolmaster had time off and could use some extra money from time to time.  The easiest way in the Siegen area would be to work digging up the iron ore.  Then if someone came through promising to pay your way to the New World if you were involved in the iron industry, I am certain some "simple" miners would say, "I sure am, sign me up." Inferences can certainly be made if one knows what was going on in a particular area at a particular time.  In Arkansas following World War II and for many years after, school teachers hardly made a living wage.  Many schools went about 8 weeks in July, August, and early September.  Then school was out to get the crops in.  Cotton was labor intensive. I remember that many school teachers, especially those men married, went to the cotton fields to pick cotton.  Those who were good at it could make as much or more than the hourly wage of a school teacher!  Think to the seasonal occupations of the men in Siegen land.  Many would have periods of free time.  So most could have been involved in digging ore from time to time and probably were. 2.  Fuhrmann has a number of meanings.  Cassel's German-English dictionary, revised 1909, gives carrier, driver, coachman, wagoner.      Thode has freight handler; carrier, carter.     Bentz gives coachman and wagoner.     Webster gives carter as one who carries or conveys in or as if in a cart.     Webster has first for carrier as an individual or organization engaged in transporting passengers or goods for hire. 3. Schuldiener.  Thode gives it as school teacher, but for just diener he gives servant.  When working with German records, I always go to Thode first; however, I also check in various other works.      Cassel has for Schuldiener as a school porter.     Bentz has only diener and gives it as a servant.     Cassel has for diener: (man) servant, attendant; official; reverence, bow     Bahlow's Dictionary of German names has Diener as being Upper German.         Servant is the meaning.  He reports it first found as Conrad Diener, a friar,         in Freiburg 1304.  While a friar is a preaching monk, he is also a servant of God. Working in the 1600s and 1700s, it is very difficult for us today to grasp just what some of the words meant.  In fact, it was difficult from village to village to determine what the same word meant.  Bismark tried to put an end to that, but I understand from some of the folks I have visited with on the Germanna tours that words still mean different things to different folks.  That is true in English also.  How many have a spanner in their house. It takes a lot of effort to make sense out of some words even in different regions of the U.S.  Where I grew up in Arkansas, three speech pattern zones came together. Evening meant different things to different folks.  To some it was afternoon; to others it was after dark. So on and so forth. Two hours to hunt these meaning out and I am still not sure exactly what Suzanne will get from this.  But, keep digging.  I enjoy the discussion and hopefully I helped a bit. Cary     ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GERMANNA_COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

In the area of Siegen, it was most likely that a Fuhrman was a carrier of iron or products made of steel. There is a road half axle deep, almost, where the carters moved heavy products from Siegen land to elsewhere. I hesitate to say it was steel and iron tools, but I do not know of any other trade product at this time. Maybe someone else remembers the history of that old road we saw several years ago on the Germanna tour. Cary ----- Original Message ----- From: "Suzanne Matson" <holtzclaw.research@yahoo.com> To: <germanna_colonies@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 9:04 PM Subject: Re: [GERMANNA] Fwd: John Hoffman and the Fuhrmann Barb, Fuhrmann does not mean "traveling dealer in iron products". I consulted three different German dictionaries including a German dictionary that lists occupations. Fuhrmann means a carter, carrier or driver. BC Holtzclaw is wrong in his definition. The word for iron is Eisen. Suzanne Collins Matson ________________________________ From: "RockCatt@aol.com" <RockCatt@aol.com> To: Germanna_Colonies@rootsweb.com Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 9:35:03 PM Subject: [GERMANNA] Fwd: John Hoffman and the Fuhrmann ____________________________________ From: RockCatt To: germanna_colonies@rootsweb.com Sent: 11/10/2008 16:16:04 Pacific Standard Time Subj: Re: John Hoffman and the Fuhrmann John Hoffmann, the 1714 immigrant, also had ancestors that were in the iron industry: BC Holtclaw notes that the father of Johannes Hofmann, John Hoffman, the 1714 immigant, was "called "Fuhrmann" in this record," the christening record of John Hoffmann. BC also states: "Johannes Hofmann(this is the father of John) became a Siegen citizen in the same year, 1690, though he lived most of his life at Eisern later on. He was a Fuhrmann, or traveling dealer in iron products." I'm wondering if the Siegen citizenship record states exactly what Johannes Hofmann's job was and that he did deal in iron. I'll have to find that record to be sure, but it's certainly possible. Tillmann Hofmann, b. ca 1638, the father of Johannes Hofmann, Sr., and the grandfather of Johannes Hofmann, the 1714 Immigrant, was admitted to the Guild of Smelterers and Hammersmiths as a smelterer in 1661/2 when he inherited his father's property. Dietrich Hofmann, b. ca 1615, Tillmans' father, was admitted as smelterer to the Guild of Smelterers and Hammersmiths in 1647. BC Holtzclaw states that this shows "that he owned at least 6 "Days" or shares in some ironworks, probably the Eisern ironworks." Tillmann Hofmann, b. ca 1590, he possessed ironworks property and was admitted to the Guild of Smelterers and Hammersmiths in 1628/9. Barb Price In a message dated 11/10/2008 12:29:21 Pacific Standard Time, john.blankenbaker@comcast.net writes: People have been quoting the wrong interpretation of the German word "Fuhrmann." It does NOT mean a dealer in iron or an exporter of iron as B.C. Holtzclaw said it did. All good German dictionaries define it as a "carter," "conveyor," "hauler," or "freighter" without regard to what is being hauled. [The modern analogy would be that one drove a truck.] We know a little bit about the family of John Hoffman, Sr., the father of 1714 John, 1738 Henry, and William (who also came to America but to Pennsylvania). William left a diary in which he recorded many daily experiences. There is nothing in his writings which suggest iron. One might infer that William was a farmer and he does say that he owned a horse (only a few did). -- John.Blankenbaker@comcast.net ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GERMANNA_COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ____________________________________ AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and all other Holiday needs. _Search Now_ (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1212792382x1200798498/aol?redir=htt p://searchblog.aol.com/2008/11/04/happy-holidays-from-aol-searc h/?ncid=emlcntussear00000001) . **************AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and all other Holiday needs. Search Now. (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1212792382x1200798498/aol?redir=htt p://searchblog.aol.com/2008/11/04/happy-holidays-from -aol-search/?ncid=emlcntussear00000001) ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GERMANNA_COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GERMANNA_COLONIES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I have followed the discussion regarding the occupation of the First Colonist. Several things have been discussed. 1. Guild of Smelterers and Hammersmiths. Barb, you know I like to see the German spelling of the terms as it helps me learn more of what I need to look for. I know Hammerschmied[t] and I believe Schmelzarbeitter is a Smelter. There would be Guilds for these workers. Even though they are distinct from each other, it appears both belong to a joint guild. First, one was an apprentice. When the apprentice became somewhat knowledgeable about various parts of the craft, then he was tested. If he could satisfy the masters of the trade, then he would become a journeyman or fellow of the craft. Eventually, he might become skilled enough to acquire all the secrets of the craft and would be entitled to be called a master of the trade. The Guild of Smelterers and Hammersmiths were not miners. They were the ones who took the iron ore and processed it into useable products. Anyone with a strong back, and even if one didn't have such, could work the mines. There were no secrets to protect there that would allow anyone to become a man of means. I believe the diaries of Jean de la Fontaine that remarks about what he encountered at Germanna to be true. I have not read that part personally, but am well-acquainted with some of his writings. What I do not know is "Did Spottswood pay the transportation from Germany to Virginia?" Not being a descendant of the First Colony, I sometimes drift off in discussions about them. Miners. I would imagine that most men in the Siegen area knew about the iron mines. Most had probably from time to time dug up some of the ore. Even a schoolmaster had time off and could use some extra money from time to time. The easiest way in the Siegen area would be to work digging up the iron ore. Then if someone came through promising to pay your way to the New World if you were involved in the iron industry, I am certain some "simple" miners would say, "I sure am, sign me up." Inferences can certainly be made if one knows what was going on in a particular area at a particular time. In Arkansas following World War II and for many years after, school teachers hardly made a living wage. Many schools went about 8 weeks in July, August, and early September. Then school was out to get the crops in. Cotton was labor intensive. I remember that many school teachers, especially those men married, went to the cotton fields to pick cotton. Those who were good at it could make as much or more than the hourly wage of a school teacher! Think to the seasonal occupations of the men in Siegen land. Many would have periods of free time. So most could have been involved in digging ore from time to time and probably were. 2. Fuhrmann has a number of meanings. Cassel's German-English dictionary, revised 1909, gives carrier, driver, coachman, wagoner. Thode has freight handler; carrier, carter. Bentz gives coachman and wagoner. Webster gives carter as one who carries or conveys in or as if in a cart. Webster has first for carrier as an individual or organization engaged in transporting passengers or goods for hire. 3. Schuldiener. Thode gives it as school teacher, but for just diener he gives servant. When working with German records, I always go to Thode first; however, I also check in various other works. Cassel has for Schuldiener as a school porter. Bentz has only diener and gives it as a servant. Cassel has for diener: (man) servant, attendant; official; reverence, bow Bahlow's Dictionary of German names has Diener as being Upper German. Servant is the meaning. He reports it first found as Conrad Diener, a friar, in Freiburg 1304. While a friar is a preaching monk, he is also a servant of God. Working in the 1600s and 1700s, it is very difficult for us today to grasp just what some of the words meant. In fact, it was difficult from village to village to determine what the same word meant. Bismark tried to put an end to that, but I understand from some of the folks I have visited with on the Germanna tours that words still mean different things to different folks. That is true in English also. How many have a spanner in their house. It takes a lot of effort to make sense out of some words even in different regions of the U.S. Where I grew up in Arkansas, three speech pattern zones came together. Evening meant different things to different folks. To some it was afternoon; to others it was after dark. So on and so forth. Two hours to hunt these meaning out and I am still not sure exactly what Suzanne will get from this. But, keep digging. I enjoy the discussion and hopefully I helped a bit. Cary

I am looking for the connection, if there is one, of Elizabeth Hitt (1795-1844) to the Germanna Hitts.  She married Reuben Jeffries (1792-1846).  They both died in Madison Co VA.  I don't know who her parents were. Thanks- Suzanne Collins Matson

The Siegen and Oberfischbach church records sometimes mention occupation of the father or status of the father.  It is not consistent throughout.  Hans Jacob Holtzclaw is always mentioned as "schuldiener" which literally translates as "school servant"; however, Ernest Thode in his German genealogical dictionary gives the meaning as "school teacher".  Thode makes a distinction between school teacher and schoolmaster.  Rev. Haeger's occupation is listed first as co-rector of the Latin School and later as the pastor at Oberfischbach.  These are the only ones from the first colony where the occupation is consistently given-at least in the church records.  I have been reading these records for a number of years but still haven't finished reading all of them because life and laundry often get in the way. I assumed that you are referring to the baptism records in their German homeland, but that assumption may be incorrect (as assumptions usually are)..  In the Virginia colony, no records have been located of the early Reformed church at Germanna or at Germantown.  I am not aware of any manumission records per se in regard to the Germanna group.  Manumission is usually cited in relation to slaves being freed.  The First Colony were not slaves although they were bound to Spotswood for one half their passage.  The difference as I see it (and it is a huge difference!) is that slavery was for life and extended to your descendants and being indentured to someone to pay off a debt which had a definite ending time known to both parties..  In the case of the First Colony, I think their time of indenture was about 3 and 1/2 years.  I think John Blankenbaker has presented the best timeline for the First Colony's departure from Germanna to Germantown.  He might be willing to repost this to the list.  I am sure it is in the list archives but could not easily locate it. Suzanne Collins Matson ________________________________ From: "Hdanw@aol.com" <Hdanw@aol.com> To: GERMANNA_COLONIES-L@rootsweb.com Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 11:19:16 PM Subject: [GERMANNA] Occupations in Siegen In English research of parish records, at least in the baptism records, one  finds that the occupation of at least one of the parents is given.  Is that  true of German baptism records of early date?  Do any of the baptism  records--or manumission records--of our early Germanna ancestors still  exist? E.W.Wallace