The famous people may get embalmed in Germany. Because there grave will stay for a long time. In my home town there were still graves from the 1800's. I can remember they talked about it to remove it because there was no space. Even now some graves are only keep for 5 years. If the family like to keep it longer they have to pay a fee. A grave in Germany is different as in the States. Here in the States you have a plot with a marker or stone. In Germany is like a small flower-bed. You plant it with flowers in the spring, than you plant new flowers in the beginning of the summer and then in the fall it is covered with fir. There always real flowers on the grave. So long there are flowers on the graves you have to water it in the summer time every evening. It is work there to keep up the grave. When the other family members pass away, who will take care of the grave then? If the grave has no care and no one is renew the lease. They do away with it. I pay still for my Parents grave side in Germany and I have a flower shop taking care of the grave. One of this day I am not going to be there, then the grave is gone too. Katharina > >Hi, >I just joined this very informative list since I am just beginning a >geneological search for Schaefer roots. 32 years ago I went to >Witterschlick (a suburb of Bonn) with my family. We looked at graves >there and didn't find a single relative. Now I know why! > >How long has Germany used this method of turning graves? When did >embalming stop, were embalming methods ever used? > >Thanks! >Sue Schafer >(I just found out the original spelling two weeks ago.) > > _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com

1500s seems early for Huguenots. The Edict of Nantes was revoked in France in 1685. It was after this that my ancestors moved from Lorraine to the Palatinate. I also read now that Lorraine was part of the Holy Roman Empire before Louis XIV seized it in 1670. Of course, there were troubles and persecutions before 1685 so an earlier move is not impossible. There must have been troubles before 1598 which led to the Edict of Nantes. How old is that Evangelist church? I would expect Balingen to be a Catholic area. Holborn says that Württemburg was strictly Lutheran and would not take the Huguenots in 1685, but received Waldensians (from Savoy) at the turn of the century. Thomas Koch ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2000 4:31 PM Subject: [GERMAN-LIFE] graves in Germany > Another bit of information I found intresting is that my family of Jenter's > were French Huguenots who escaped from France in the 1500's and setteled in > Heselwangen Germany, and from there one of my ancestors moved to the little > town of Zillhausen right next door.

Hi! Hope someone can answer this question for me. My husband's grandfather was a baker. It has been a tradition in the Schreiber family that they bake the Christmas stollen. (Grandpa Paul was from Gersdorf bei Chemnitz -Karl Marx Stadt). Anyway, the recipe he used called for 10¢ worth of citron, candied orange peel and candied lemon peel. How much citron would this be? Thanks if anyone can help me on this. Coradean Czeschin Naylor

When you really stop to think about it, they must have been doing this for years. There wouldn't be enough room for cemetaries to keep adding new graves. One of the things that I found different in Europe was that the villages are so close together--there usually is only 2 or 3 miles between villages, and the population is denser than in the States. And were talking about countries that have been populated for many, many centuries, rather than our two. It was a necessity, I'm sure. Dorie ---- Original Message ----- From: Sue Schafer <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2000 3:10 PM Subject: Re: [GERMAN-LIFE] graves in Germany > Hi, > I just joined this very informative list since I am just beginning a geneological search for Schaefer roots. 32 years ago I went to Witterschlick (a suburb of Bonn) with my family. We looked at graves there and didn't find a single relative. Now I know why! > > How long has Germany used this method of turning graves? When did embalming stop, were embalming methods ever used? > > Thanks! > Sue Schafer > (I just found out the original spelling two weeks ago.) >

I found one of my family had a child 2 years before they married and then came to this country. The rest of the family doesn't seem to know that that child was really their child. I thought that strange. She is never listed, but is definitely listed in the church records in Germany. Large family and no problems so who knows. Found a lot of illegitimate children when going through the records and they are recorded as such, but with parents and grandparents listed. Jerilyn Jerilyn Lappin Koskan Cook Co., Illinois [email protected] FTM user BREWER-Daniel Belmont, OH, Northumberland, Indiana and Jefferson, PA DAVIS/DAVIDSON-Marium/Mary b1803 Bucks, PA Mother Rachel Greene DUSATKO-Barbara, Anton late 1800s Butler, NE DYE-William, David, Daniel in Monroe, OH early 1800s. FISHER-Joseph, b abt 1805 OH, last Morgan, OH 1850. Wife Judith Lappin. Children John, Knight, Elizabeth, Thomas, Hannah, Mary, Rachel, Ruth GRAY-Ogden b 1850 Morgan, OH, d Fulton, IL. Children - Ogden, Lafayette, Mary A., Cornelius, Elizabeth, Rachel GREENE-Rachel, b abt 1770, Bucks, PA HANNA-Archibald, d 1793 Westmoreland, PA Children Hugh, William, Hannah, Mary (wed Robert Williams) KIRK-Elizabeth, Quaker, daughter Joseph Kirk/Judith Knight, wed Robert Lappin abt 1790. Chester & Fayette, PA Belmont, OH KOSKAN-Vaclav, b 1850s Czechoslovakia d Butler, NE LAPPIN-PA and OH late 1700s/1800s LEAK/LEEK-MD & Eastern, OH in late 1700s and 1800s MITCHELL-Thomas Mitchell, b 1770s Greene, PA -d Monroe, OH. Daughter Maria wed William Dye. MONROE-Nicholas Monroe, b PA, died Belmont, OH early 1850s. Children Curtis, William, John, Samuel, Mary (Hendershot), Eleanor (Maring), Rebecca (Murphy), Miller, George, Richard. MONTGOMERY-Daniel, d 1842 Vinton, OH Family to Wayne, IL Wife Alice Lappin, Children William, Mariah, John, Elizabeth, Rachel, Letticia, Ruth, Euphemia OATES-Sarah Elizabeth born Lewis, WV, adopted Samuel McCluster - to Decatur, KS Parents supposedly Elizabeth Puffenbarger/Benjamin Oates SLUSHER-Frederick, b PA, lived Monroe, OH, d Wayne, IL SMITH-Aaron 1755/Anna Foster Bucks, PA Children John, Amos, Hannah, Samuel, Charles, Mary STARBUCKS-John and Ann Lappin of Belmont, OH STARKEY - b 1810 PA, wed Belmont, OH TODD - Wm. & Rachel Lappin, d late 1800s Morgan, OH WADSWORTH-Alcinda, Martha, Wm., Rachel, Emily, Ruth b Belmont, OH

I travel a lot in Germany and the cemeteries are sometimes right by the churches -- especially in the small villages and sometimes in another place. The Catholic and Evangelish used the same cemetery and sometimes are using the same church. In the small villages I have found very old tombstones -- some so covered with vines I couldn't ready them, but usually not so. I also was one of those who couldn't wait to get to Obersaulheim to find my ancestors. What a disappointment. But I found one stone that had ancestors on 4 sides. This was 20 years ago. Last summer I decided to look at it again and it was now gone. No more sides to write on. It was my family. An English lady found me the last person in the area with the name of Becker. I spoke no German other than uhr uhr grossvater etc and he, an old man, spoke no English. I brought out my pix of my great grandfather and he was so excited and went in and brought out his vater (father). They could have been twins. After several trips there going through the church records all around that area I now know that he was a descendant of one of my great great grandfather's brothers. Too bad I found out too late and learned a little German too late. Would have loved to have talked with him. My daughter went with me this last time and she speaks fluent German. Since I travel a lot with my husband I have been around the world and the topic of burials has been of interest since I started this hobby as a girl and also since I have a varied background. What a difference in procedure in other counties. My two cents worth. Thanks. Jerilyn Jerilyn Lappin Koskan Cook Co., Illinois [email protected] FTM user BREWER-Daniel Belmont, OH, Northumberland, Indiana and Jefferson, PA DAVIS/DAVIDSON-Marium/Mary b1803 Bucks, PA Mother Rachel Greene DUSATKO-Barbara, Anton late 1800s Butler, NE DYE-William, David, Daniel in Monroe, OH early 1800s. FISHER-Joseph, b abt 1805 OH, last Morgan, OH 1850. Wife Judith Lappin. Children John, Knight, Elizabeth, Thomas, Hannah, Mary, Rachel, Ruth GRAY-Ogden b 1850 Morgan, OH, d Fulton, IL. Children - Ogden, Lafayette, Mary A., Cornelius, Elizabeth, Rachel GREENE-Rachel, b abt 1770, Bucks, PA HANNA-Archibald, d 1793 Westmoreland, PA Children Hugh, William, Hannah, Mary (wed Robert Williams) KIRK-Elizabeth, Quaker, daughter Joseph Kirk/Judith Knight, wed Robert Lappin abt 1790. Chester & Fayette, PA Belmont, OH KOSKAN-Vaclav, b 1850s Czechoslovakia d Butler, NE LAPPIN-PA and OH late 1700s/1800s LEAK/LEEK-MD & Eastern, OH in late 1700s and 1800s MITCHELL-Thomas Mitchell, b 1770s Greene, PA -d Monroe, OH. Daughter Maria wed William Dye. MONROE-Nicholas Monroe, b PA, died Belmont, OH early 1850s. Children Curtis, William, John, Samuel, Mary (Hendershot), Eleanor (Maring), Rebecca (Murphy), Miller, George, Richard. MONTGOMERY-Daniel, d 1842 Vinton, OH Family to Wayne, IL Wife Alice Lappin, Children William, Mariah, John, Elizabeth, Rachel, Letticia, Ruth, Euphemia OATES-Sarah Elizabeth born Lewis, WV, adopted Samuel McCluster - to Decatur, KS Parents supposedly Elizabeth Puffenbarger/Benjamin Oates SLUSHER-Frederick, b PA, lived Monroe, OH, d Wayne, IL SMITH-Aaron 1755/Anna Foster Bucks, PA Children John, Amos, Hannah, Samuel, Charles, Mary STARBUCKS-John and Ann Lappin of Belmont, OH STARKEY - b 1810 PA, wed Belmont, OH TODD - Wm. & Rachel Lappin, d late 1800s Morgan, OH WADSWORTH-Alcinda, Martha, Wm., Rachel, Emily, Ruth b Belmont, OH

I too, would be interested in the article. Plse foward....ginger

Katharina - thank you for your reply....Diane ----- Original Message ----- From: Katharina Hines <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2000 1:38 PM Subject: Re: [GERMAN-LIFE] graves in Germany > I ask once the same question when I was a small child. > I was told, they are taking to the bone mill. > I don't even want to think about it. > All my family was cremated. There ashes where buried in the Balkan Sea. > To be near there,were they was born, Pommern. > > Katharina > > > >I have read that people buried in Germany and other European countries > >often > >have their remains removed after 20-30 years. Then the same plot is used > >for another body. Where do the bones go after they are removed from the > >plot? > > > >Thanks! > > > >Diane > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________ _________ > Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com >

Thank you for your reply....Diane ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2000 7:30 AM Subject: Re: [GERMAN-LIFE] graves in Germany > I don't think there are any bones left by then. I am not sure they embalm as > would be hurtful to the ecology. I know they are wrapped in white and yes > they are turned. They are not always turned in the smaller villages, but > every place I went that was the case. I wrote an article on burial practices > around the world last fall and got in trouble for not sticking to genealogy, > but I felt that it would help you do your research as was quite a shock to be > so excited to get to Germany expecting 200 years of tombstones and finding no > old ones. Jerilyn > > Jerilyn Lappin Koskan > Cook Co., Illinois > [email protected] > FTM user > > BREWER-Daniel Belmont, OH, Northumberland, Indiana and Jefferson, PA > DAVIS/DAVIDSON-Marium/Mary b1803 Bucks, PA Mother Rachel Greene > DUSATKO-Barbara, Anton late 1800s Butler, NE > DYE-William, David, Daniel in Monroe, OH early 1800s. > FISHER-Joseph, b abt 1805 OH, last Morgan, OH 1850. Wife Judith Lappin. > Children John, Knight, Elizabeth, Thomas, Hannah, Mary, Rachel, Ruth > GRAY-Ogden b 1850 Morgan, OH, d Fulton, IL. Children - Ogden, Lafayette, > Mary A., Cornelius, Elizabeth, Rachel > GREENE-Rachel, b abt 1770, Bucks, PA > HANNA-Archibald, d 1793 Westmoreland, PA Children Hugh, William, Hannah, Mary > (wed Robert Williams) > KIRK-Elizabeth, Quaker, daughter Joseph Kirk/Judith Knight, wed Robert Lappin > abt 1790. Chester & Fayette, PA Belmont, OH > KOSKAN-Vaclav, b 1850s Czechoslovakia d Butler, NE > LAPPIN-PA and OH late 1700s/1800s > LEAK/LEEK-MD & Eastern, OH in late 1700s and 1800s > MITCHELL-Thomas Mitchell, b 1770s Greene, PA -d Monroe, OH. Daughter Maria > wed William Dye. > > MONROE-Nicholas Monroe, b PA, died Belmont, OH early 1850s. Children Curtis, > William, John, Samuel, Mary (Hendershot), Eleanor (Maring), Rebecca (Murphy), > Miller, George, Richard. > MONTGOMERY-Daniel, d 1842 Vinton, OH Family to Wayne, IL Wife Alice Lappin, > Children William, Mariah, John, Elizabeth, Rachel, Letticia, Ruth, Euphemia > OATES-Sarah Elizabeth born Lewis, WV, adopted Samuel McCluster - to Decatur, > KS Parents supposedly Elizabeth Puffenbarger/Benjamin Oates > SLUSHER-Frederick, b PA, lived Monroe, OH, d Wayne, IL > SMITH-Aaron 1755/Anna Foster Bucks, PA Children John, Amos, Hannah, Samuel, > Charles, Mary > STARBUCKS-John and Ann Lappin of Belmont, OH > STARKEY - b 1810 PA, wed Belmont, OH > TODD - Wm. & Rachel Lappin, d late 1800s Morgan, OH > WADSWORTH-Alcinda, Martha, Wm., Rachel, Emily, Ruth b Belmont, OH >

I walked through a few cemeteries while visiting Germany during the summer months. I was astonished to see what Katharina described as little flower gardens, and many people pruning, weeding & watering them. They were absolutely beautiful. I guess the closest thing Americans might come to it is our old fashioned decoration day. Both of my mother's parents' people have family cemeteries that are still maintained in North Carolina, and they have an annual decoration day. On that day, the family members, who still live near by, gather to rake the winter's debris, clean the stones and put new, but unfortunately, plastic flowers across the plots. I wonder if this is a result of the original decoration day for the union soldiers following the Civil War - oops, I digress. I've often that of developing a garden plot for Grandfather's grave in that family cemetery, much like the ones I saw in his native country. The family would probably think nutty! Ginny

I would be very interested in seeing these gravesites. Arlene -----Original Message----- From: dick <[email protected]> To: [email protected] <[email protected]> Date: Thursday, November 30, 2000 4:53 PM Subject: Re: [GERMAN-LIFE] Flowers / Decoration Day >Just a thought ... if anyones interested, I could put some photos of >German / Austrian grave sites I took while I was there in the late >70's. > >Let me know .. and if there's enough interest, I'll set it up > >Dick S. > > > >

Hello Everyone, I am a new Kid on the list and thought I would share my experience with you. In the summer of 1998, our church took a trip to Germany to trace our German routes and to follow the Reformation Movement of Martin Luther. After the 12 day tour I had the wonder experience of visiting my ancestral home in the tiny village of Zillhausen in Baden-Wuerttemburg, about 1 hour south of Stuttgart. I spent a wonderful 5 days with Jenter's cousins and walked the streets of my ancestors, with my cousins. One thing I was particularly looking forward to, was visiting graves of ancestors at the Zillhausen Evangelisch Kircke. I was disappointed in that I saw graves no older then about 20 to 25 years. And there was no cemetery at the church. My cousins, Wilhelm Jenter and his wife Anita, both in their mid 60's, cannot remember a cemetery ever being on the church property. There is a cemetery a few blocks away. It was explained to me, that in Germany, space is precious, the country is not as big as say the United States, and they just cannot afford to use a lot of land for cemeteries. Families rent grave space for a number of years, say 20 or so and after that time, any monument is either moved to a family garden, or resold to a monument dealer and reused again. It is possible to have a family plot in a cemetery and family members continue to be buried there. As we all know, dust to dust, ashes to ashes, and eventually the remains disintegrate. A friend of mine born in Germany and a member of the BW list, tells that as a small girl in Germany she can remember the church sexton preparing a grave for new remains and seeing piles of human ones that were removed from the previous grave. (I don't know what happened to them, or where they were removed to.) I was told that some times the graves stones (monuments) might be moved to a family garden at their home. The graves there were very well kept and beautiful. Being there in the month of June, flowers were in abundance and the graves were very well cared for and blooming with flowers, a very pleasant and severe place to visit. As the daughter, granddaughter and great granddaughter of funeral directors and morticians, I can tell you that to my knowledge and to my dads, embalming is not normally practiced in Germany and most European countries. The only time that it probably would, would be in cases where the remains might need to be transported long distances, such as shipment to the USA or for sanitation reasons such as infectious disease control. Another bit of information I found intresting is that my family of Jenter's were French Huguenots who escaped from France in the 1500's and setteled in Heselwangen Germany, and from there one of my ancestors moved to the little town of Zillhausen right next door. Wilhelm and Anita told me during my visit to the Heselwangen cemetery that a plane had crash landed during WW II almost on the grounds of the Heselwangen Cemetery. Again the cemetery was not on the church grounds, but a few blocks away. They both were young children during the second world war, but they both can remember this incident. I don't remember fight off hand, but I think it might have been an allied plane, and the pilot was killed. I have only been a member of the list for a few short weeks, and I am really enjoying every ones stories. Thanks for letting me tell you of my visit. Karen JENTER Michigan USA

Just a thought ... if anyones interested, I could put some photos of German / Austrian grave sites I took while I was there in the late 70's. Let me know .. and if there's enough interest, I'll set it up Dick S.

This has all been very interesting to me. My grandmother emigrated from Germany, at the age of 12, and lived with German-born parents til she got married. Then she married a German fellow. I remember so very clearly going to the cemetery, to put flowers on the graves of her husband and her baby and to plant flowers. She took good care of this gravesite and would go more frequently than most people in the states. Now I understand why. Thanks, Arlene Buch-Houghton surnames: Buch/Bopp/Loos/Krauss

My wife's one set of great-grandparents had two children before they were married, and the third was on the way !! We're certain it was a matter of money for the wedding. They were in love and didn't want to wait to start their family. They brought all these children, both pre- and post-marital to this country, and the two great-grandparents lived to rather old ages in the Chicago area. They were certainly not morally lax, so far as we can see. Dave Ross Denver, CO

Sue, I think think the time limits on graves are set locally. There is no uniform standard for all of Germany. Relatives have the option of renewing the grave for a given time period. We have renewed my grandmother's grave in Wismar (Mecklenburg) twice now. Once when it was in the DDR and just recently after the wall came down. To the best of my knowledge, embalming has never been done, but then I could be wrong. Klaus Dieter Cook, Houston, Texas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sue Schafer" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2000 3:10 PM Subject: Re: [GERMAN-LIFE] graves in Germany > Hi, > I just joined this very informative list since I am just beginning a geneological search for Schaefer roots. 32 years ago I went to Witterschlick (a suburb of Bonn) with my family. We looked at graves there and didn't find a single relative. Now I know why! > > How long has Germany used this method of turning graves? When did embalming stop, were embalming methods ever used? > > Thanks! > Sue Schafer > (I just found out the original spelling two weeks ago.) > >

I just was told the adresse is old here is the new one Die Deutsche Zentralstelle für Geneologie Schongauerstr.1 04329 Leipzig Germany I spelled Leipzig right this time!!!!!!!! Katharina >From: "WRidge" <[email protected]> > >Would be very interested in someone elaborating on this: >Wan > > > > Hi > > I found today an address > > Deutsche Zentralstelle für Genealogie > > Käthe Kollwitzstr.82 > > 04109 Leipzig > > Germany > > tel 49(341)401113 > > the center won't provide you with your family tree, but prommises to >answer > > specific questions(the more specific, the better your chances). > > Their collection includes 100 000 personal documents and 16 000 church > > registers (dating back to the sixteenth century) and basic information >an > > more then 1.4 million people is available. > > Does any one knows of there sevice? > > May be it would be some help for some one > > Katharina > > > > >____________________________________________________________________________ >_________ > > Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : >http://explorer.msn.com > > > > > _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com

<Would be very interested in someone elaborating on this:> Wan, Katharina & fellow list members, The German Center for Genealogy (Deutsche Zentralstell für Genealogie) was founded as an archive for genealogical materials. It has an extensive collection of German church records from Posen, Ostpreussen, Westpressen, Pommern, and Schlesien (now in Poland, Russia, and Lithuania) as well as many records of German settlements in eastern Europe. The FHC has microfilms of these records but if you need, you can write directly to them. For a fee, employees of the center will try to find genealogical sources but as a rule, must be done by researchers. Ahnenstammkartei (ASTAKA) - Genealogy Card file of the German People "Die Ahnenstammkartei des deutschen Volkes" is a collection of genealogies held at the Zentralstelle für Personen- und Familiengeschichte in Leipzig. It was started in 1921 as a central repository for German genealogical research, and it now contains nearly 5 million names. It's a complex search, but made easier by the website which allows you to begin and find the films you'll need to check: http://feefhs.org/fij/ahnstamm.html or http://feefhs.org/ click on Web Portal Index and enter: ASTAKA The cataloguer for the FHL, Thomas Edlund, has written a book, "Die Ahnenstammkarteis des Deutschen Volkes?An Introduction and Register" which should be at your FHC. Regards, Curt

I would like a copy to -- maybe you can post it on the list? Thanks Claire -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [SMTP:[email protected]] Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2000 8:25 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [GERMAN-LIFE] graves in Germany Too bad, Jerilyn, that someone "came down on you" for your article on burial practices. Understanding that is as much a part of genealogy as finding granddad's naturalization papers !! It's all part of the picture, isn't it? If you still have that article in file, I'd appreciate your forwarding it to me. Dave Ross Denver, CO

We've had this discussion some time back -- and it was noted that there are "caves" or buildings where the bones are placed .. They even have their names on the skulls with small wreaths. This is not uncommon for other European countries as well as land is scarce. I noticed in Switzerland (I been there recently) that some of the stones are placed on the walls and courtyards of the churches (probably church patrons -- and relatives can visit and leave flowers, candles) I was also told that when the graves are turned over -- the relatives are notified and can pick up the gravestones. My cousin said that my uncle had lots of pictures of gravesites of family -- we now know why. Claire -----Original Message----- From: Katharina Hines [SMTP:[email protected]] Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2000 8:38 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [GERMAN-LIFE] graves in Germany I ask once the same question when I was a small child. I was told, they are taking to the bone mill. I don't even want to think about it. All my family was cremated. There ashes where buried in the Balkan Sea. To be near there,were they was born, Pommern. Katharina > >I have read that people buried in Germany and other European countries >often >have their remains removed after 20-30 years. Then the same plot is used >for another body. Where do the bones go after they are removed from the >plot? > >Thanks! > >Diane > ________________________________________________________________________ _____________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com