In a message dated 9/28/99 5:02:07 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: << Because I did not find any Azelshof or Groß-Bützin in my maps, I also asked this maps.exite.com - and right: Both places were indicated in that central position You described. Meanwhile I found out, that this wonderful program places _every_ unknown (or not existent) city to this position, try Peking, Baghdad, Tegucigalpa. Sorry. Dieter >> Ah, this is not good news, Dieter! The USA (Buffalo, NY) German Evangelical church records for the children's baptisms list these two places for the towns of birth for the WITT and KRUEGER parents! I even paid a local researcher who lives there to read the old german script. The entries would have been made in the years of their children's birthdates - so 1890s. And the births of the immigrants were in 1854 and 1859.... "somewhere"!!!! (Guess it's not Thuringia, after all....) I was thinking these were much better records to go on than the general "germany" found in the US Fed Census records - 1900 on... and was excited to have actual place names. Someone else here sent me the contact information for Erie County, NY - to try for the naturalization records - so I'll see if they shed any light or if they are "vague" on placenames too. (_or_ give me the same town names again!) I'm disappointed and a bit frustrated at the moment. Not on any of your maps..... hmmmm ... What does this mean? The registers were read incorrectly? I need to find more maps? I have to explore other types of records? (will do this in any case) Ah well, thank you Dieter. Doesn't look like I should place high value on that map program!!! debbie in california