Aida, Like I said before - so rich in cultural nuances. I just LOVE it when you share these pearls. :) Elaine in Maine -----Original Message----- >From: Aida Kraus <birchbaylady@gmail.com> >Sent: Jan 19, 2012 10:19 PM >To: Patricia Moos <ppk1502@ymail.com>, german-bohemian@rootsweb.com >Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Req: German-Bohemian boundaries > >Pat, the entire Bohemian/Moravian area was a mish-mash of Germans, Czechs, >and Jews, a few Slovakians and Hungarians and a few fiddling Gypsies thrown >in for "entertainment". And the variety of food in those times - fresh >from the farms! It was a wonderful and colorful symbiosis among these >people, who rather drank beer and danced a polka. And that was so, until >politics started to tear people apart. Your family living in that typical >border area. There you flipped from one language to the other without much >thought. Don't forget: The so called Sudetenland was nearly 100% German, >but as you went towards the "Czech lands" or as they called it later "the >Protectorate" you find a country looking very much like a Swiss cheese, the >holes being German pockets all over Bohemia and Moravia. In fact there >were so many Germans that Czechoslovakia could only become a country by >highjacking Slovakia in order to achieve a Slavic majority. One village >was German, the next Czech, a Jewish Stettl in between. And since people >lived together they used both languages and a few Jewish expression >besides. That is what Bohemia was for the most part of its existence >during the Austrian Hungarian Monarchy. Once the Country of Czechoslovakia >was born, there was a squeeze on the Germans to "become Czech" - which did >not work - and once the Germans occupied the Sudetenland in 1938 and then >the Protectorate, there was the squeeze on the Czechs and Jews - and that >worked not at all. So, the easy symbiosis of our many ethnic groups >living together in the Monarchy was utterly destroyed by political forces, >opinions, religions, you name it.... People living there would never had >behaved the way they did had they been less influenced and able to work out >their difference among themselves. And as we all know now, these >instilled "opinions" set an end to the "golden years" as our grandparents >knew it. The Czechs were pushed towards Panslavism, the Germans towards the >Nazi Regime, which was the only alternative as not to succumb to the huge >influence of Communism, and when the Nazi regime fell, Communism rose >again.... But it was even before that, at the time when Germans were >expelled from their native land in 1945, where there lived for >centuries. Then, as the houses stood empty and forlorn, new people came >there to make a new home for themselves under a Communistic regime, and >while the spoils of war were rich, it was bitter for the Czech people. In >reality, our living together for so many centuries made us brothers >sharing a homeland and I think there is hardly an old timer, like myself, >who does not look with nostalgia to these times when we "were all >together." Austria Hungary was truly a cosmopolitan country. And now, 67 >years later, the trend of a United Europe is, indeed, much the same as the >old polyglott world of Old Austria Hungary. Perhaps a constitutional >monarchy could have rescued all of us, but for that the time was not yet >"ripe"..... but the consequences were terrible for each and every one of us >living there, Germans, Czechs and Jews. So.... your memory of your family >is from THAT charming space in time, when we intermingled: >Guten Appetit, Dobrou Chut and Lachaim. How rich we were! Know that you >have a vignette of life as a cherished memory. > Aida > >----------------------------------------------------- > >On Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 6:27 PM, Patricia Moos <ppk1502@ymail.com> wrote: > >> Yes, thank you for the reply. I already know where it is and how to find >> it. I have corresponded with people there. I have found and copied BMD >> records online at the Plzen Archive site. >> >> I simply wanted to know whether or not if this Kocin in question is >> considered to lie within the unclear and ephemeral boundaries which you >> folks on this list refer to as German-Bohemian, and/or Sudetenland. All of >> that is unclear to me. >> >> THE REASON I ASK IS THIS: >> >> "My" Kocin in question seems to lie A LITTLE SOUTH of the SOUTHERN LIMIT >> of the Sudetenland or German-Bohemian boundary on the map(s) you, Aida, >> posted. >> >> Therefore, my grandparents and great grandparents should have spoken >> CZECH/Bohemian as a FIRST LANGUAGE. >> >> Yet it seems that they spoke German as a first language instead, and this >> is the language they spoke at home (other than English). >> They DID SPEAK CZECH, but not as much. >> >> They said things such as, "Was ist hier denn los? >> Or, " Was ist los mit dich?" [Should have said "...mit dir" -- dative >> case] >> They said, "Es erfreut mir ihnen kennenzulernen." >> Or simply "Erfreut mir." >> "Gute nacht. Schläft wohl." >> "Guten Morgen. Hast du viel Hunger für den Speck und Eier? >> "Was zum Teufel machst du da?!" >> "Bis du ganz verrucht?" >> "Ach! Daß ist Schnapsidee!" >> >> They cooked simple dishes such as Schenkenflecken and Judlicki or Jüdlichi >> (spelling?). No one seems to heard of the latter. From the root, it >> appears that it might be of Jewish origin. >> >> But they also said, "Jak se mas?" >> "Ja bily parodni baba." >> >> My great grandfather was very tall, and he would jokingly call a short >> fellow a "spunt," or "Spund," the former of which is Czech for "dwarf" or >> "elf" and the latter German for "bung" or "plug" in a beer barrel. Both >> are pronounced virtually the same and both could metaphorically refer to a >> short guy. For example: >> "Siehst du da am jener kleiner Spund aus?" Er ist mein Boss." >> "Videt ze tam spunt? On je muy sef. >> I do not recall his using the word "zakrslika" for runt. >> >> Why should they be German speakers, being from Kocin, Kralovice, Plzen? >> >> P. >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: Aida Kraus <birchbaylady@gmail.com> >> To: Laurence Krupnak <LKrupnak@verizon.net>; german-bohemian@rootsweb.com >> Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2012 7:35 PM >> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Req: German-Bohemian boundaries >> >> Kocin, Kralovice is in the Plzen area in the Czech speaking region of >> Bohemia (during the Monarchy). In that area, most Czech people spoke >> German, also. You can detect the ethnicity of you family in finding Kocin >> or Kralovice church records at the archives at Plzen. Kralovice >> (Kralowitz) is northeast of Plzen towards the Czech interior, and if you >> look at the map, Rakovnik is to the northeast, Stribro to the southwest. >> Go from Stribro northeast to Rakovnik and you should find it. Pilsen >> (Plzen) lies to the South. >> Since there is also a Kralowitz in the Bukovina, you will have to use the >> Kocin designation for a correct identification of the area and I found >> Kocin and Kralovice in the Plzen area. >> Aida >> >> >> On Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 3:24 PM, Laurence Krupnak <LKrupnak@verizon.net >> >wrote: >> >> > >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: "Patricia Moos" <ppk1502@ymail.com> >> > To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN@rootsweb.com> >> > Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2012 4:22 PM >> > Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Req: German-Bohemian boundaries >> > >> > >> > >Are people from the Kocin, Kralovice area >> > >> > >> > >> > Which one..there are two places that comply with this parameter. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >considered to be German-Bohemians? >> > >> > >> > let us know which village...give a map which shows the location. >> > >> > >> > >> > >It seems to be on or near the boundary and I cannot tell for sure from >> > >the maps. >> > >> > My great grandparents had a purely Czech names, but seemed to have >> > spoken German as a first language, since that is what they mostly taught >> > their children. They also spoke "Bohemian," as they called it, >> > >> > >> > >> > that is Czech language,. >> > >> > >> > > and something called "Slavisch," which I take to be Slovak, but am not >> > > sure. >> > >> > >> > >> > Slavisch means Slavic. Thus, they probably spoke Czech language, not >> > German. >> > >> > >> > >Would like to know your opinions. >> > >> > Pat >> > >> > ________ >> > >> > Lavrentiy >> > >> > >> > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >> > ------------------------------- >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > >> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message