I am referring to this quote: *Origin of term Bohemian:* *The name "Bohemia" derives from the Latin term for the Celtic tribe inhabiting that area, the Boii, who were called Boiohaemum in the early Middle Ages.* My comment: In 9 BC, Marbod, the Marcoman who was born in Moravia was educated in Rome and came back to his country as administrator and formed the first Germanic Realm with the Germanic Tribes of the Marcomanni and Quadi. He was ousted by Arminius, or Hermann as we know him. When the Romans tried to cross the Rhine, they were defeated by Germanic tribes. We have more writing by Marcus Aurelius who died fighting the Germans in 121-180 AD. And there are several translations from Tacitus (55-120AD) when he wrote his "Germania" and when the Germanic fortifications on the Rhine and Danube held against the invading Romans, while the British Isles were already 400 years under Roman control. Because the Germanic tribes did not succumb to Rome, the history written by Tacitus is not complimentary, of course, because they were such a hard nut to crack. We see that 410 Alaric and his Visigoth entered Rome (*Alaric I* ( Gothic <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_language>: Alareiks; 370 - 410) was the King <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_Kingship> of the Visigoths <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visigoths> from 395–410. Alaric is most famous for his sack of Rome<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sack_of_Rome_(410)>in 410, which marked a decisiveevent in the decline of the Roman Empire<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decline_of_the_Roman_Empire>.) But here we two sides of the story, because Alaric supposedly did NOT sack Rome because Pope Leo paid him tribute. After them Attila the Hun plundered Italy in 453 AD. There was also Geiseric and his Vandals who reached the Roman's North African Coast, so the invasion of the Germanic tribes on Rome were firmly under way. If the Slavic people, arriving as slaves of the Awars in 400 to 500 AD in the Western area, there certainly is no recording of them by the Romans, simply because the Romans never encountered their presence in these lands. Consequently, the Slavic people, or Czechs, arrived long after the Roman Empire had already declined. So does this mean that Romans never encountered the Slavic people's presence in the land of the Marcomanni which seems to have been in the general area of Austria , Bavaria, Moravia and Bohemia? Aida --------------------------------------------------- On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 10:52 AM, Laurence Krupnak * * <LKrupnak@verizon.net> wrote: > > / > > > I (Deborah Bibo of the Brigham Young University Linquistics > Department) have compiled a brief history of the Czech peoples to paint > a clearer picture of their language progression: > > > http://linguistics.byu.edu/classes/ling450ch/reports/czech.html > > > > *********** > > Origin of term Bohemian: > > The name "Bohemia" derives from the Latin term for the Celtic tribe > inhabiting that area, the Boii, who were called Boiohaemum in the early > Middle Ages.[citation needed] The word "Bohemian" was never used by the > local Czech (Slavic) population.[citation needed] In Czech, the region > since the early Middle Ages has been called only Cechy ("Czech") or > Království ceské ("Czech Kingdom"), and its mainly Czech-speaking > inhabitants were called Cechové (in modern Czech Cesi).[citation needed] > > In most other European vernaculars and in Latin (as Bohemi), the word > "Bohemian" or a derivate was used. If the Czech ethnic origin was to be > stressed, combinations like "Bohemian of Bohemian language"(Cech ceského > jazyka), "a real Bohemian" (pravý Cech) etc. were used.[citation needed] > > It was not until the 19th century that other European languages began to > use the word "Czechs" (in English - Tschechen in German, Tchèques in > French) in a deliberate (and successful) attempt to distinguish between > Bohemian Slavs and other inhabitants of Bohemia (mostly Germans). > Currently, the word "Bohemians" is sometimes used when speaking about > persons from Bohemia of non-Czech or mixed ethnic origin, especially > before the year 1918, when the Kingdom of Bohemia ceased to exist; also > when there is need to distinguish between inhabitants of the western > part (Bohemia proper) of Czechia, and the eastern (Moravia) or the > north-eastern part (Silesia). > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohemian > > > _________ > > Lavrentiy > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Laurence Krupnak" <LKrupnak@verizon.net> > To: <german-bohemian@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Monday, January 16, 2012 6:18 PM > Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] 1929/30 Czech Census! > > > Here's more: > > The word "Bohemian" was used to denote the Czech people as well as the > Czech language before the word "Czech" became prevalent in English. > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohemian > > > Bohemian German ( Boehmerwaelderischish) is a High German language > spoken in Czechoslovakia, Germany and the US. It looks like both North > and Central Bavarian. > > Starting in the 1200's, Germans began moving into the Sudetenland, often > invited by Bohemian kings. Over the centuries, they pushed out the > Czechs and Slavs living in the area and took it over for farming. > Although intelligibility data for Bohemian German is lacking, it is > often considered to be a full language of its own, so we will treat it > as one in this analysis. > > Actually, since it ranges from East Middle German to Bavarian High > German, Bohemian German seems to be a wastebasket designation for the > varying lects spoken in the Sudetenland. > > On the border of Silesia, it resembled Silesian. On the border of the > Erzgebirge, it looked like Erzgebirgisch. In the far northeast, where > the Riesengebirge separated Bohemia from Silesia, in the Hultschiner > Laendle, the people had a very divergent lect of their own. > > To the south of the city of Mies, along the Bohemian Mountains, it > looked like Niederbayerisch. A dialect called Böhmish is spoken spoken > in the Böhmerwald or Bohemian Forest. In the south, extending all the > way towards Moravia, it looked very much like the Central Bavarian > spoken in Austria. Sorting all of this out and determining what was a > dialect and what was a separate language is going to be difficult. > Schönhengst is a dialect of this language spoken in Moravia. > > Egerland Bohemian German (Egerlaenderisch) is spoken in Bischofteinitz, > Mies, Tachau and Taus Counties in the Czech Republic in Western Bohemia > and in and around New Ulm, Minnesota, where there are still speakers > ranging from 52-98 years old. In the Czech Republic, each village had a > separate dialect, but all dialects are intelligible. This appears to be > a separate language from Oberpfalz Northern Bavarian. > > This seems to be the same language as Sechsämterland spoken across the > border. The Sechsämterland dialect is spoken in the area around Selb, > Wunsiedel, Hohenberg and Thierstein in the far northeast of Bavaria near > the border with Czechoslovakia and Lower Saxony. > > Dialectal diversity is very high in this area, and every village has its > own dialect. > > Lauterbach is a divergent dialect spoken east of Tirschenreuth on the > Czech border. Tiss is a divergent subdialect of Egerland. Sangerberg is > a divergent Egerlaenderisch dialect spoken in Prameny, Czechoslovakia. > Cheb is spoken in the large German city of the same name. Tachauer is a > dialect that formed the basis for the Machliniec dialect spoken formerly > spoken by the Carpathian Germans in their language island in the > Machliniec area of the Ukraine. They left during WW2. > > German Central Bavarian is a group of Bavarian lects that are spoken in > Germany. This group includes Lower Bavarian, Upper Bavarian and Lechrain > Bavarian (Lechrainisch). Lechrain Bavarian is spoken in Western Bavaria > and is transitional to Swabian. Map of the Lechrain region. Lechrain is > very different from the rest of Bavarian, but intelligibility data is > lacking. > > Lower Bavarian includes the Bohemian Forest language and many dialects. > > Upper Bavarian includes the Starnberg, Highland and Meisbach languages > and many dialects. > > > > > http://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2009/04/13/reworking-of-german-language-classification-part-3-high-german/ > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Aida Kraus" <birchbaylady@gmail.com> > To: <german-bohemian@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Monday, January 16, 2012 5:49 PM > Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] 1929/30 Czech Census! > > > > Czech and German are two entirely different languages. Czech's base > > roots > > are Slavic and similar to Polish and Russian. German has its base in > > Germanic language roots, like Austrian, Swiss, and is related to all > > Scandinavian languages and German dialects. If your ancestral family > > residing in Bohemia spoke both languages, they were bilingual. You > > spoke > > either German or Czech in Bohemia. The Czechs referred to their home > > language as "Bohemian" and the Germans from Bohemia referred to their > > home > > dialect "Bohemian" when they were away from home and lived in America. > > So > > I hope that this will make you > > aware that your family spoke two entirely different language, and now > > you > > have to find written records in either language to identify their > > ethnicity. > > Aida > > > > ----------------------------------------------- > > > > On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 1:34 PM, <nechkash@comcast.net> wrote: > > > >> > >> > >> Hello Aida, > >> > >> > >> > >> My father was born as a second-generation US citizen in Wisconsin, > >> but > >> didn't speak English until he went to grade school (about 1931). The > >> > >> family and all the local's spoken only the native tongue (Bohemian). > >> He > >> and my Aunt Mary always claimed they also understand German because > >> > >> it was similar enough to the Bohemian language? Is this the case? > >> Thanks, > >> > >> > >> > >> Daniel Nechkash > >> > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> From: "Aida Kraus" <birchbaylady@gmail.com> > >> To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com > >> Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 3:50:38 PM > >> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] 1929/30 Czech Census! > >> > >> I do not know what part the Census played in the expulsion except > >> that the > >> individual resident had to decide on his ethnic preference. > >> Generally, you > >> were a Czech when you spoke the Czech language at home, and > >> consequently > >> you > >> were German if you spoke German. But that in itself is totally false, > >> because families were blended there since the early times when the > >> area was > >> settled by tribes and later when civilization made an impact, like > >> during > >> the reign of Karl IV (1316-1378) who was the Bohemian King of mixed > >> marriage > >> himself. His father was a Luxemburger, his mother Elizabeth of > >> Bohemia is > >> claimed to be Czech, but her mother was Judith of Habsburg. Their > >> home > >> language was German and French. Their son Karl IV's first wife was > >> the > >> daughter of the French King and could not speak Czech, so their > >> family > >> spoke > >> German at home, his next two wives were Germans and his last wife was > >> from > >> Poland. The claim to Slavic is a strong as the claim to German and > >> separating the two had no advantage to either side. So..... as these > >> families were intermingled, so was the population and one simply > >> spoke the > >> language of the majority of the local population. You will find > >> totally > >> German villages within Czech territory, you will find Czechs living > >> in > >> German territories and so they spoke whatever language was spoken > >> there and > >> this has NOTHING whatsoever to do with their ethnic background. The > >> only > >> place where there was a clear distinction between Czech and German > >> was in > >> the Egerland, because that particular area belonged historically to > >> Bavaria > >> before it was given as a loan-security to the Bohemian crown. The > >> Wittelsbacher needed money to consolidate their Bavarian Kingdom and > >> gave > >> up > >> the Egerland for money they desperately needed to keep their other > >> borders > >> protected. In the Egerland, therefore, they spoke an Upper Frankish, > >> and > >> this is very old dialect an quite distinct from the other German > >> patios > >> spoken elsewhere. This upper Frankish dialect is still spoken in > >> Bayreuth, > >> Marktredwitz etc. along the North Western border of the Czech > >> Republic. > >> That language has nothing to do with the Saxon dialect which is > >> spoken > >> along the northern mountain range called Kruzne Hory now, and was > >> called > >> "Erzgebirge" throughout history. It is a fact that the Egerland was > >> never > >> rescued by Bavaria in repaying that loan and so it never got out of > >> hock; > >> but this in itself was never perceived as necessary, because the > >> King of > >> Bohemia was - in fact - the Roman Kaiser of the German Nations which > >> included all the Germanic lands, and on top of this, the capital of > >> the > >> Egerland, namely the town of Eger (now Cheb) was a German Reichsstadt > >> like > >> Nuremberg, with the same legal rights. The division between Czech > >> and > >> German was never an issue until other nations had an interest to sow > >> the > >> seeds of discontent for their own political profits. The Slavic > >> movement > >> in > >> the Habsburg empire did not make an impact until 1866 with the > >> political > >> movement of Panslavism. Before that, all ethnic groups, i.e. > >> Austrians, > >> Hungarians, Romanians, part of the Ukraine, Serbs. Croats, Slovaks, > >> Galician > >> Poles, Moravians, Bohemians and Tyrolians all came to America under > >> an > >> Austrian passport. And at times it also included Belgium, Luxemburg, > >> Alsace > >> and Lorraine. They all belonged to the same motherland who happened > >> to have > >> German as their administrative language, because their capital was > >> Vienna. > >> The international language was French. So, you can see that their > >> modern > >> aim of a United Europe, is about as close to what the Austrian > >> Hungarian > >> Monarchy was to begin with. > >> The way I can explain it and to paint a picture of what it was > >> like to > >> live in Austria Hungary just compare it to Canada. There you have > >> English > >> speaking, French speaking and many native Nations speaking their > >> various > >> dialects as well as Esquimos ...... and they also live in separate > >> areas, > >> just as it was in Austria Hungary. So now you know how it was in > >> Austria > >> Hungary for your ancestors, and that it was the AREA where you lived > >> that > >> guided the language spoken there. The time has finally come that we > >> do > >> away > >> with this "ethnic" thing. In all truth it is totally meaningless. > >> We are > >> people who have happily melted here on American soil, so where is > >> this > >> difference as a people??? > >> I will tell you where, in nothing but the nostalgia of an old > >> song in > >> a > >> familiar language which you have heard at your mother's breast. And > >> that > >> is worth sharing! > >> Aida > >> > >> ------------------------------------------- > >> > >> On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 12:35 PM, Biddy Orr <biddyt4@xtra.co.nz> > >> wrote: > >> > >> > Aida - I would be grateful if you could provide an answer to this > >> question, > >> > please? > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > What part did the 1929/30 Census play in the expulsion of the > >> > Germans > >> from > >> > Czechoslovakia after World War 11. I understand it was to do with > >> > 'language' > >> > - the 'mother' tongue? > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Thanks, > >> > > >> > Biddy Orr > >> > > >> > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > >> > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > >> > ------------------------------- > >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > >> > without > >> > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > > >> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > >> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > >> without > >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > >> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > >> without > >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >