The links to Mr. Lindsay's seemingly exhaustive and interesting language studies are welcomed; however; I must say further that Mr.Lindsay's website reveal other subjects of an overwhelmingly political and even socio-racial nature the likes of which I have not seen before. Tread this site with caution. Ron -----Original Message----- From: german-bohemian-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:german-bohemian-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of german-bohemian-request@rootsweb.com Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2012 1:55 PM To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com Subject: GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Digest, Vol 7, Issue 15 German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ Today's Topics: 1. German language in Bohemia (Aida Kraus) 2. Re: German language in Bohemia (HELEN M WHITE) 3. Re: German language in Bohemia (Aida Kraus) 4. Re: Distinction of Czech versus German surnames (polloe@earthlink.net) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 08:05:23 -0800 From: Aida Kraus <birchbaylady@gmail.com> Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] German language in Bohemia To: GBHS <german-bohemian@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <CAMswtwqrP-TJFBd9s=sCrZ_4qhddXSFiQJzGe9Jwz+bc4wkggQ@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >From Aida: I am highlighting some paragraphs of interest to us from the article submitted by Mr. Krupnak which highlights our Bohemian-German dialects spoken in Western Bohemia: Iink: http://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2009/04/13/reworking-of-german-language-c lassification-part-3-high-german/ *Oberpf?lz North Bavarian<http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~janblotz/arnoldre search3.htm> * (Oberpf?lzerisch or Oberpf?lzisch) is a language spoken in southeastern Germany in central eastern and northeastern Bavaria from Regensburg, Kelheim and the Bavarian Forest north along the Naab River to the Fichtelgebirge (Fir Mountains) and in the Northern Bohemian Forest along the border with Czechoslovakia. It is also spoken up by Neumarkt. According to residents (Kirmaier 2009), this is a separate language, not intelligible with other German Bavarian lects. Dialects of this language include *Danube Oberpf?lzisch *, which, though different, is fully intelligible with the Oberpf?lzisch spoken in Neumarkt. This is the Oberpf?lzisch spoken along the Danube around the towns of Kelheim and Regensburg. *Bohemian German*<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germans_in_the_Czech_Republic>(Boehmerw aelderischish<http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GERMAN-BOHEMIAN/ 2007-05/1178379647>) is a High German language spoken in Czechoslovakia, Germany and the US. It looks like both<http://books.google.com/books?id=8uxfTF4Lm-kC&pg=PA598&lpg=PA598&dq=%22 bohemian+german%22+dialect&source=bl&ots=4nnlM3ZukV&sig=yBfEQB1ndQSgikiFgVpW Co8C7_E&hl=en&ei=5mK-SYfdFJmQsQP5uPBD&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=7&ct=result #PPA597,M1>North and Central Bavarian. *Egerland Bohemian German*<http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~gbhs/newsletter/Heimatbrief_March_ 2000.pdf>(Egerlaenderisch) is spoken in Bischofteinitz, Mies, Tachau and Taus Counties in the Czech Republic in Western Bohemia and in and around New Ulm, Minnesota, where there are still speakers ranging from 52-98 years old. In the Czech Republic, each village had a separate dialect, but all dialects are intelligible. This appears to be a separate language<http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/th/read/GERMAN-BOHEMIAN/2006-05/11 47996153>from Oberpfalz Northern Bavarian. This seems to be the same language as * Sechs?mterland * spoken across the border. The Sechs?mterland dialect is spoken in the area around Selb, Wunsiedel, Hohenberg and Thierstein in the far northeast of Bavaria near the border with Czechoslovakia and Lower Saxony. Dialectal diversity is very high in this area, and every village has its own dialect. *Lauterbach* is a divergent dialect spoken east of Tirschenreuth on the Czech border. *Tiss* is a divergent<http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~gbhs/newsletter/Heimatbrief_Marc h_2003.pdf>subdialect of Egerland. *Sangerberg* is a divergent Egerlaenderisch dialect spoken in Prameny, Czechoslovakia. *Cheb (note from Aida: I never heard of a dialect named "Cheb", as "Cheb" is the Czech translation for the city of Eger!) * is spoken in the large German city of the same name. *Tachauer* is a dialect that formed the basis<http://www.members.shaw.ca/brianmerz/Genealogy/folklore.htm>for the * Machliniec* dialect spoken formerly spoken by the Carpathian Germans in their language island in the Machliniec area of the Ukraine. They left during WW2. *German Central Bavarian* is a group of Bavarian lects that are spoken in Germany. This group includes Lower Bavarian, Upper Bavarian and *Lechrain Bavarian* (Lechrainisch). Lechrain Bavarian is spoken in Western Bavaria and is transitional to Swabian. Map of the Lechrain region<http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Lechrain.svg>. Lechrain is very different<http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/BAVARIAN-ANCESTORS/2 001-10/1003966871>from the rest of Bavarian, but intelligibility data is lacking. Lower Bavarian includes the Bohemian Forest language and many dialects. Upper Bavarian includes the Starnberg, Highland and Meisbach languages and many dialects. ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 09:33:44 -0700 From: HELEN M WHITE <hwhitemc8309@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] German language in Bohemia To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com Message-ID: <CALTeD8u9M3cxtTmGuE1ht_P68Aao8BjSjSPDGc7B8v03uca78w@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 My Family ( Grandparents)are ;. Catholic- Farmers & woodcutters of Bohemian forest. Where exactly I do not know. It is said they spoke "Low German" Does this give me a lead of how to find them in Bohemia before they emigrated to Paltinossa, Suceava dist.of Austrian Empire ...now Romania, abt 1817 On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 9:05 AM, Aida Kraus <birchbaylady@gmail.com> wrote: > >From Aida: I am highlighting some paragraphs of interest to us from the > article submitted by Mr. Krupnak which highlights our Bohemian-German > dialects spoken in Western Bohemia: > Iink: > > http://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2009/04/13/reworking-of-german-language-c lassification-part-3-high-german/ > > *Oberpf?lz North > Bavarian< > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~janblotz/arnoldresearch3.h tm > > > * (Oberpf?lzerisch or Oberpf?lzisch) is a language spoken in southeastern > Germany in central eastern and northeastern Bavaria from Regensburg, > Kelheim and the Bavarian Forest north along the Naab River to the > Fichtelgebirge (Fir Mountains) and in the Northern Bohemian Forest along > the border with Czechoslovakia. It is also spoken up by Neumarkt. > > According to residents (Kirmaier 2009), this is a separate language, not > intelligible with other German Bavarian lects. Dialects of this language > include *Danube Oberpf?lzisch *, which, though different, is fully > intelligible with the Oberpf?lzisch spoken in Neumarkt. This is the > Oberpf?lzisch spoken along the Danube around the towns of Kelheim and > Regensburg. > > *Bohemian German*< > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germans_in_the_Czech_Republic > >(Boehmerwaelderischish< > http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GERMAN-BOHEMIAN/2007-05/117837 9647 > >) > is a High German language spoken in Czechoslovakia, Germany and the US. It > looks like both< > http://books.google.com/books?id=8uxfTF4Lm-kC&pg=PA598&lpg=PA598&dq=%22bohem ian+german%22+dialect&source=bl&ots=4nnlM3ZukV&sig=yBfEQB1ndQSgikiFgVpWCo8C7 _E&hl=en&ei=5mK-SYfdFJmQsQP5uPBD&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=7&ct=result#PPA5 97,M1 > >North > and Central Bavarian. > > *Egerland Bohemian > German*< > http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~gbhs/newsletter/Heimatbrief_March_2000.pdf > >(Egerlaenderisch) > is spoken in Bischofteinitz, Mies, Tachau and Taus > Counties in the Czech Republic in Western Bohemia and in and around New > Ulm, Minnesota, where there are still speakers ranging from 52-98 years > old. In the Czech Republic, each village had a separate dialect, but all > dialects are intelligible. This appears to be a separate > language< > http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/th/read/GERMAN-BOHEMIAN/2006-05/1147996153 > >from > Oberpfalz Northern Bavarian. > > This seems to be the same language as * Sechs?mterland * spoken across the > border. The Sechs?mterland dialect is spoken in the area around Selb, > Wunsiedel, Hohenberg and Thierstein in the far northeast of Bavaria near > the border with Czechoslovakia and Lower Saxony. > > Dialectal diversity is very high in this area, and every village has its > own dialect. > > *Lauterbach* is a divergent dialect spoken east of Tirschenreuth on the > Czech border. *Tiss* is a > divergent< > http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~gbhs/newsletter/Heimatbrief_March_2003.pdf > >subdialect > of Egerland. > *Sangerberg* is a divergent Egerlaenderisch dialect spoken in Prameny, > Czechoslovakia. *Cheb (note from Aida: I never heard of a dialect named > "Cheb", as "Cheb" is the Czech translation for the city of Eger!) * is > spoken in the large German city of the same name. *Tachauer* is a dialect > that formed the > basis<http://www.members.shaw.ca/brianmerz/Genealogy/folklore.htm>for > the > * Machliniec* dialect spoken formerly spoken by the Carpathian Germans in > their language island in the Machliniec area of the Ukraine. They left > during WW2. > > *German Central Bavarian* is a group of Bavarian lects that are spoken in > Germany. This group includes Lower Bavarian, Upper Bavarian and *Lechrain > Bavarian* (Lechrainisch). Lechrain Bavarian is spoken in Western Bavaria > and is transitional to Swabian. Map of the Lechrain > region<http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Lechrain.svg>. > Lechrain is very > different< > http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/BAVARIAN-ANCESTORS/2001-10/100 3966871 > >from > the rest of Bavarian, but intelligibility data is lacking. > > Lower Bavarian includes the Bohemian Forest language and many dialects. > > Upper Bavarian includes the Starnberg, Highland and Meisbach languages and > many dialects. > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > -- *hwhitemc* "Live simply; Care deeply; Love generously;" and most importantly, "Speak kindly." ...by Sam @ MTPR ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 10:45:44 -0800 From: Aida Kraus <birchbaylady@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] German language in Bohemia To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com Message-ID: <CAMswtwq2=VjoH_zUCBJQehPHhF9wsuqEC0FsDwvbxZU7PXufWA@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Helen, the best way to find your family's origin is to go to the LDS Family Research Center in your area and look at the microfilms available (there are several rolls in alphabetical order of surnames) and you ca find them under the heading "Andsiedlerakten". This is a record of movement within the Austrian Hungarian Empire. If they went from Bohemia (part of the Empire) to Romania (which then was also part of the Empire) or from Bohemia to Galicia, for instance, their names should be recorded in that file. You could compare it to a move from one State of the US to another. There are records of these moves archived at the LDS. Good luck! Aida -------------------------------------- On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 8:33 AM, HELEN M WHITE <hwhitemc8309@gmail.com>wrote: > My Family ( Grandparents)are ;. Catholic- Farmers & woodcutters of > Bohemian forest. > Where exactly I do not know. It is said they spoke "Low German" > Does this give me a lead of how to find them in Bohemia before they > emigrated to > Paltinossa, Suceava dist.of Austrian Empire ...now Romania, abt 1817 > > On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 9:05 AM, Aida Kraus <birchbaylady@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > >From Aida: I am highlighting some paragraphs of interest to us from > the > > article submitted by Mr. Krupnak which highlights our Bohemian-German > > dialects spoken in Western Bohemia: > > Iink: > > > > > http://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2009/04/13/reworking-of-german-language-c lassification-part-3-high-german/ > > > > *Oberpf?lz North > > Bavarian< > > > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~janblotz/arnoldresearch3.h tm > > > > > * (Oberpf?lzerisch or Oberpf?lzisch) is a language spoken in southeastern > > Germany in central eastern and northeastern Bavaria from Regensburg, > > Kelheim and the Bavarian Forest north along the Naab River to the > > Fichtelgebirge (Fir Mountains) and in the Northern Bohemian Forest along > > the border with Czechoslovakia. It is also spoken up by Neumarkt. > > > > According to residents (Kirmaier 2009), this is a separate language, not > > intelligible with other German Bavarian lects. Dialects of this language > > include *Danube Oberpf?lzisch *, which, though different, is fully > > intelligible with the Oberpf?lzisch spoken in Neumarkt. This is the > > Oberpf?lzisch spoken along the Danube around the towns of Kelheim and > > Regensburg. > > > > *Bohemian German*< > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germans_in_the_Czech_Republic > > >(Boehmerwaelderischish< > > > http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GERMAN-BOHEMIAN/2007-05/117837 9647 > > >) > > is a High German language spoken in Czechoslovakia, Germany and the US. > It > > looks like both< > > > http://books.google.com/books?id=8uxfTF4Lm-kC&pg=PA598&lpg=PA598&dq=%22bohem ian+german%22+dialect&source=bl&ots=4nnlM3ZukV&sig=yBfEQB1ndQSgikiFgVpWCo8C7 _E&hl=en&ei=5mK-SYfdFJmQsQP5uPBD&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=7&ct=result#PPA5 97,M1 > > >North > > and Central Bavarian. > > > > *Egerland Bohemian > > German*< > > > http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~gbhs/newsletter/Heimatbrief_March_2000.pdf > > >(Egerlaenderisch) > > is spoken in Bischofteinitz, Mies, Tachau and Taus > > Counties in the Czech Republic in Western Bohemia and in and around New > > Ulm, Minnesota, where there are still speakers ranging from 52-98 years > > old. In the Czech Republic, each village had a separate dialect, but all > > dialects are intelligible. This appears to be a separate > > language< > > > http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/th/read/GERMAN-BOHEMIAN/2006-05/1147996153 > > >from > > Oberpfalz Northern Bavarian. > > > > This seems to be the same language as * Sechs?mterland * spoken across > the > > border. The Sechs?mterland dialect is spoken in the area around Selb, > > Wunsiedel, Hohenberg and Thierstein in the far northeast of Bavaria near > > the border with Czechoslovakia and Lower Saxony. > > > > Dialectal diversity is very high in this area, and every village has its > > own dialect. > > > > *Lauterbach* is a divergent dialect spoken east of Tirschenreuth on the > > Czech border. *Tiss* is a > > divergent< > > > http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~gbhs/newsletter/Heimatbrief_March_2003.pdf > > >subdialect > > of Egerland. > > *Sangerberg* is a divergent Egerlaenderisch dialect spoken in Prameny, > > Czechoslovakia. *Cheb (note from Aida: I never heard of a dialect > named > > "Cheb", as "Cheb" is the Czech translation for the city of Eger!) * is > > spoken in the large German city of the same name. *Tachauer* is a dialect > > that formed the > > basis<http://www.members.shaw.ca/brianmerz/Genealogy/folklore.htm>for > > the > > * Machliniec* dialect spoken formerly spoken by the Carpathian Germans in > > their language island in the Machliniec area of the Ukraine. They left > > during WW2. > > > > *German Central Bavarian* is a group of Bavarian lects that are spoken in > > Germany. This group includes Lower Bavarian, Upper Bavarian and *Lechrain > > Bavarian* (Lechrainisch). Lechrain Bavarian is spoken in Western Bavaria > > and is transitional to Swabian. Map of the Lechrain > > region<http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Lechrain.svg>. > > Lechrain is very > > different< > > > http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/BAVARIAN-ANCESTORS/2001-10/100 3966871 > > >from > > the rest of Bavarian, but intelligibility data is lacking. > > > > Lower Bavarian includes the Bohemian Forest language and many dialects. > > > > Upper Bavarian includes the Starnberg, Highland and Meisbach languages > and > > many dialects. > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > -- > *hwhitemc* > > "Live simply; Care deeply; Love generously;" and most importantly, "Speak > kindly." ...by Sam @ MTPR > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 14:54:31 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: polloe@earthlink.net Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Distinction of Czech versus German surnames To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com Message-ID: <11718795.1326916472465.JavaMail.root@wamui-june.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Aida, and All, Ya seem to raise an interesting issue below. If the Surname sometimes changed from Czech to German or German to Czech depending on the area a family lived in or moved to, then IF we have a "Brickwall", maybe it would be good to look for the Surname as translated into the other language. Would the above be a good idea? How about with given names? Were they likely to change between languages as well? I'm tracing a Karola. His marriage record in Trnava (now Slovakia) (was Hungary) not far from the Czech border, lists his place of birth as Brno. I have not found his Birth record from Brno CZ as yet. Is it likely I will find variations of the Given Name as well? Thanks in advance, Elaine -----Original Message----- >From: Aida Kraus <birchbaylady@gmail.com> >Sent: Jan 16, 2012 7:20 PM >To: GBHS <german-bohemian@rootsweb.com> >Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Distinction of Czech versus German female surnames > >Under the Austrian Hungarian Empire most church records were written in the >language of its ethnic population after the 19th century. Throughout the >Austrian Hungarian Empire there were more than 9 languages spoken (German, >Hungarian, Slovakian, Czech, Polish, Ukrainian, Croatian, Serbian and >Romanian and others). Actually, the Austrian Hungarian Empire was a >fore-runner of what we have today in Europe - a "United Europe". Austria >Hungary was very international and colorful, but with a dominant German or >Hungarian administration for their regions. Regional administration used >the language of their population. During the Empire years there were > either predominantly German or Czech Cities and villages and many other >ethnic population centers. > When the Latin language of Catholic church registers was replaced by >the language of the region, it is there that you will be able to tell the >ethnicity of your ancestry by looking at the language used in these church >records. Pay attention to your find and see if they were written either in >Czech or German and you will know your families ethnicity. Surnames do >hardly pinpoint ethnicity, because intermarriage-names show as many to be >translated to German as they were translated to Czech. For instance the >German name Schmied (a smith) might be translated to the Czech >equivalent: Kov?? >when they moved into a predominantly Czech region; or the Czech family by >the name by Kovar might have acquired the German name of Schmied by moving >to a predominantly German region.; so you really cannot tell just by >surnames what ethnicity they might have had. Here is an example: You can >be sure that the record shows in the Czech language if the female ending > "ova" is at the end of the surname. Here is an example: >The family surname "Schmied" would be listed as "Schmiedova or Smidova" >found in a Czech register for a female. German records would never show >the ending "ova" for a female, and the text would be German and the female >name listed as Schmied or even Smid without the "ova" ending. However, in >older records (end of 1700 and beginning of 1800) you might find the ending >"in" attached to a German surname for a German female, hence, "Schmiedin." > So remember: "ova" = Czech, no ending or "in" ending = German. This is >your key to ethnic distinction. > Aida > > >On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 3:17 PM, <nechkash@comcast.net> wrote: > >> >> >> I am quite sure of my father - my grandmother (the Wintra, Winter, >> Winters, eta) family came from Vesele, Bohemia, Czech and several >> surrounding villages in 1778. But my father - my grandfather (the Neckar >> lineage ), I am not sure. All that I know is John Neckar (my gr-gr-father) >> came through New York S tate to Wisconsin around 1854. I sometimes wonder >> if the Neckar were actually of German decent, and not Slavic. >> >> >> >> Dan Nechkash >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> >> From: "Aida Kraus" <birchbaylady@gmail.com> >> To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com >> Sent: Monday, January 16, 2012 4:49:48 PM >> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] 1929/30 Czech Census! >> >> Czech and German are two entirely different languages. Czech's base roots >> are Slavic and similar to Polish and Russian. German has its base in >> Germanic language roots, like Austrian, Swiss, and is related to all >> Scandinavian languages and German dialects. If your ancestral family >> residing in Bohemia spoke both languages, they were bilingual. You spoke >> either German or Czech in Bohemia. The Czechs referred to their home >> language as "Bohemian" and the Germans from Bohemia referred to their home >> dialect "Bohemian" when they were away from home and lived in America. So >> I hope that this will make you >> aware that your family spoke two entirely different language, and now you >> have to find written records in either language to identify their >> ethnicity. >> Aida >> >> ----------------------------------------------- >> >> On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 1:34 PM, <nechkash@comcast.net> wrote: >> >> > >> > >> > Hello Aida, >> > >> > >> > >> > My father was born as a second-generation US citizen in Wisconsin, but >> > didn't speak English until he went to grade school (about 1931). The >> > >> > family and all the local's spoken only the native tongue (Bohemian). He >> > and my Aunt Mary always claimed they also understand German because >> > >> > it was similar enough to the Bohemian language? Is this the case? >> > Thanks, >> > >> > >> > >> > Daniel Nechkash >> > >> >> >German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------ To contact the GERMAN-BOHEMIAN list administrator, send an email to GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-admin@rootsweb.com. To post a message to the GERMAN-BOHEMIAN mailing list, send an email to GERMAN-BOHEMIAN@rootsweb.com. __________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the body of the email with no additional text. End of GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Digest, Vol 7, Issue 15 **********************************************