Kocin, Kralovice is in the Plzen area in the Czech speaking region of Bohemia (during the Monarchy). In that area, most Czech people spoke German, also. You can detect the ethnicity of you family in finding Kocin or Kralovice church records at the archives at Plzen. Kralovice (Kralowitz) is northeast of Plzen towards the Czech interior, and if you look at the map, Rakovnik is to the northeast, Stribro to the southwest. Go from Stribro northeast to Rakovnik and you should find it. Pilsen (Plzen) lies to the South. Since there is also a Kralowitz in the Bukovina, you will have to use the Kocin designation for a correct identification of the area and I found Kocin and Kralovice in the Plzen area. Aida On Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 3:24 PM, Laurence Krupnak <LKrupnak@verizon.net>wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Patricia Moos" <ppk1502@ymail.com> > To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2012 4:22 PM > Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Req: German-Bohemian boundaries > > > >Are people from the Kocin, Kralovice area > > > > Which one..there are two places that comply with this parameter. > > > > > >considered to be German-Bohemians? > > > let us know which village...give a map which shows the location. > > > > >It seems to be on or near the boundary and I cannot tell for sure from > >the maps. > > My great grandparents had a purely Czech names, but seemed to have > spoken German as a first language, since that is what they mostly taught > their children. They also spoke "Bohemian," as they called it, > > > > that is Czech language,. > > > > and something called "Slavisch," which I take to be Slovak, but am not > > sure. > > > > Slavisch means Slavic. Thus, they probably spoke Czech language, not > German. > > > >Would like to know your opinions. > > Pat > > ________ > > Lavrentiy > > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >
Yes, thank you for the reply. I already know where it is and how to find it. I have corresponded with people there. I have found and copied BMD records online at the Plzen Archive site. I simply wanted to know whether or not if this Kocin in question is considered to lie within the unclear and ephemeral boundaries which you folks on this list refer to as German-Bohemian, and/or Sudetenland. All of that is unclear to me. THE REASON I ASK IS THIS: "My" Kocin in question seems to lie A LITTLE SOUTH of the SOUTHERN LIMIT of the Sudetenland or German-Bohemian boundary on the map(s) you, Aida, posted. Therefore, my grandparents and great grandparents should have spoken CZECH/Bohemian as a FIRST LANGUAGE. Yet it seems that they spoke German as a first language instead, and this is the language they spoke at home (other than English). They DID SPEAK CZECH, but not as much. They said things such as, "Was ist hier denn los? Or, " Was ist los mit dich?" [Should have said "...mit dir" -- dative case] They said, "Es erfreut mir ihnen kennenzulernen." Or simply "Erfreut mir." "Gute nacht. Schläft wohl." "Guten Morgen. Hast du viel Hunger für den Speck und Eier? "Was zum Teufel machst du da?!" "Bis du ganz verrucht?" "Ach! Daß ist Schnapsidee!" They cooked simple dishes such as Schenkenflecken and Judlicki or Jüdlichi (spelling?). No one seems to heard of the latter. From the root, it appears that it might be of Jewish origin. But they also said, "Jak se mas?" "Ja bily parodni baba." My great grandfather was very tall, and he would jokingly call a short fellow a "spunt," or "Spund," the former of which is Czech for "dwarf" or "elf" and the latter German for "bung" or "plug" in a beer barrel. Both are pronounced virtually the same and both could metaphorically refer to a short guy. For example: "Siehst du da am jener kleiner Spund aus?" Er ist mein Boss." "Videt ze tam spunt? On je muy sef. I do not recall his using the word "zakrslika" for runt. Why should they be German speakers, being from Kocin, Kralovice, Plzen? P. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________ From: Aida Kraus <birchbaylady@gmail.com> To: Laurence Krupnak <LKrupnak@verizon.net>; german-bohemian@rootsweb.com Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2012 7:35 PM Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Req: German-Bohemian boundaries Kocin, Kralovice is in the Plzen area in the Czech speaking region of Bohemia (during the Monarchy). In that area, most Czech people spoke German, also. You can detect the ethnicity of you family in finding Kocin or Kralovice church records at the archives at Plzen. Kralovice (Kralowitz) is northeast of Plzen towards the Czech interior, and if you look at the map, Rakovnik is to the northeast, Stribro to the southwest. Go from Stribro northeast to Rakovnik and you should find it. Pilsen (Plzen) lies to the South. Since there is also a Kralowitz in the Bukovina, you will have to use the Kocin designation for a correct identification of the area and I found Kocin and Kralovice in the Plzen area. Aida On Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 3:24 PM, Laurence Krupnak <LKrupnak@verizon.net>wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Patricia Moos" <ppk1502@ymail.com> > To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2012 4:22 PM > Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Req: German-Bohemian boundaries > > > >Are people from the Kocin, Kralovice area > > > > Which one..there are two places that comply with this parameter. > > > > > >considered to be German-Bohemians? > > > let us know which village...give a map which shows the location. > > > > >It seems to be on or near the boundary and I cannot tell for sure from > >the maps. > > My great grandparents had a purely Czech names, but seemed to have > spoken German as a first language, since that is what they mostly taught > their children. They also spoke "Bohemian," as they called it, > > > > that is Czech language,. > > > > and something called "Slavisch," which I take to be Slovak, but am not > > sure. > > > > Slavisch means Slavic. Thus, they probably spoke Czech language, not > German. > > > >Would like to know your opinions. > > Pat > > ________ > > Lavrentiy > > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Pat, the entire Bohemian/Moravian area was a mish-mash of Germans, Czechs, and Jews, a few Slovakians and Hungarians and a few fiddling Gypsies thrown in for "entertainment". And the variety of food in those times - fresh from the farms! It was a wonderful and colorful symbiosis among these people, who rather drank beer and danced a polka. And that was so, until politics started to tear people apart. Your family living in that typical border area. There you flipped from one language to the other without much thought. Don't forget: The so called Sudetenland was nearly 100% German, but as you went towards the "Czech lands" or as they called it later "the Protectorate" you find a country looking very much like a Swiss cheese, the holes being German pockets all over Bohemia and Moravia. In fact there were so many Germans that Czechoslovakia could only become a country by highjacking Slovakia in order to achieve a Slavic majority. One village was German, the next Czech, a Jewish Stettl in between. And since people lived together they used both languages and a few Jewish expression besides. That is what Bohemia was for the most part of its existence during the Austrian Hungarian Monarchy. Once the Country of Czechoslovakia was born, there was a squeeze on the Germans to "become Czech" - which did not work - and once the Germans occupied the Sudetenland in 1938 and then the Protectorate, there was the squeeze on the Czechs and Jews - and that worked not at all. So, the easy symbiosis of our many ethnic groups living together in the Monarchy was utterly destroyed by political forces, opinions, religions, you name it.... People living there would never had behaved the way they did had they been less influenced and able to work out their difference among themselves. And as we all know now, these instilled "opinions" set an end to the "golden years" as our grandparents knew it. The Czechs were pushed towards Panslavism, the Germans towards the Nazi Regime, which was the only alternative as not to succumb to the huge influence of Communism, and when the Nazi regime fell, Communism rose again.... But it was even before that, at the time when Germans were expelled from their native land in 1945, where there lived for centuries. Then, as the houses stood empty and forlorn, new people came there to make a new home for themselves under a Communistic regime, and while the spoils of war were rich, it was bitter for the Czech people. In reality, our living together for so many centuries made us brothers sharing a homeland and I think there is hardly an old timer, like myself, who does not look with nostalgia to these times when we "were all together." Austria Hungary was truly a cosmopolitan country. And now, 67 years later, the trend of a United Europe is, indeed, much the same as the old polyglott world of Old Austria Hungary. Perhaps a constitutional monarchy could have rescued all of us, but for that the time was not yet "ripe"..... but the consequences were terrible for each and every one of us living there, Germans, Czechs and Jews. So.... your memory of your family is from THAT charming space in time, when we intermingled: Guten Appetit, Dobrou Chut and Lachaim. How rich we were! Know that you have a vignette of life as a cherished memory. Aida ----------------------------------------------------- On Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 6:27 PM, Patricia Moos <ppk1502@ymail.com> wrote: > Yes, thank you for the reply. I already know where it is and how to find > it. I have corresponded with people there. I have found and copied BMD > records online at the Plzen Archive site. > > I simply wanted to know whether or not if this Kocin in question is > considered to lie within the unclear and ephemeral boundaries which you > folks on this list refer to as German-Bohemian, and/or Sudetenland. All of > that is unclear to me. > > THE REASON I ASK IS THIS: > > "My" Kocin in question seems to lie A LITTLE SOUTH of the SOUTHERN LIMIT > of the Sudetenland or German-Bohemian boundary on the map(s) you, Aida, > posted. > > Therefore, my grandparents and great grandparents should have spoken > CZECH/Bohemian as a FIRST LANGUAGE. > > Yet it seems that they spoke German as a first language instead, and this > is the language they spoke at home (other than English). > They DID SPEAK CZECH, but not as much. > > They said things such as, "Was ist hier denn los? > Or, " Was ist los mit dich?" [Should have said "...mit dir" -- dative > case] > They said, "Es erfreut mir ihnen kennenzulernen." > Or simply "Erfreut mir." > "Gute nacht. Schläft wohl." > "Guten Morgen. Hast du viel Hunger für den Speck und Eier? > "Was zum Teufel machst du da?!" > "Bis du ganz verrucht?" > "Ach! Daß ist Schnapsidee!" > > They cooked simple dishes such as Schenkenflecken and Judlicki or Jüdlichi > (spelling?). No one seems to heard of the latter. From the root, it > appears that it might be of Jewish origin. > > But they also said, "Jak se mas?" > "Ja bily parodni baba." > > My great grandfather was very tall, and he would jokingly call a short > fellow a "spunt," or "Spund," the former of which is Czech for "dwarf" or > "elf" and the latter German for "bung" or "plug" in a beer barrel. Both > are pronounced virtually the same and both could metaphorically refer to a > short guy. For example: > "Siehst du da am jener kleiner Spund aus?" Er ist mein Boss." > "Videt ze tam spunt? On je muy sef. > I do not recall his using the word "zakrslika" for runt. > > Why should they be German speakers, being from Kocin, Kralovice, Plzen? > > P. > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Aida Kraus <birchbaylady@gmail.com> > To: Laurence Krupnak <LKrupnak@verizon.net>; german-bohemian@rootsweb.com > Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2012 7:35 PM > Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Req: German-Bohemian boundaries > > Kocin, Kralovice is in the Plzen area in the Czech speaking region of > Bohemia (during the Monarchy). In that area, most Czech people spoke > German, also. You can detect the ethnicity of you family in finding Kocin > or Kralovice church records at the archives at Plzen. Kralovice > (Kralowitz) is northeast of Plzen towards the Czech interior, and if you > look at the map, Rakovnik is to the northeast, Stribro to the southwest. > Go from Stribro northeast to Rakovnik and you should find it. Pilsen > (Plzen) lies to the South. > Since there is also a Kralowitz in the Bukovina, you will have to use the > Kocin designation for a correct identification of the area and I found > Kocin and Kralovice in the Plzen area. > Aida > > > On Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 3:24 PM, Laurence Krupnak <LKrupnak@verizon.net > >wrote: > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Patricia Moos" <ppk1502@ymail.com> > > To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2012 4:22 PM > > Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Req: German-Bohemian boundaries > > > > > > >Are people from the Kocin, Kralovice area > > > > > > > > Which one..there are two places that comply with this parameter. > > > > > > > > > > >considered to be German-Bohemians? > > > > > > let us know which village...give a map which shows the location. > > > > > > > > >It seems to be on or near the boundary and I cannot tell for sure from > > >the maps. > > > > My great grandparents had a purely Czech names, but seemed to have > > spoken German as a first language, since that is what they mostly taught > > their children. They also spoke "Bohemian," as they called it, > > > > > > > > that is Czech language,. > > > > > > > and something called "Slavisch," which I take to be Slovak, but am not > > > sure. > > > > > > > > Slavisch means Slavic. Thus, they probably spoke Czech language, not > > German. > > > > > > >Would like to know your opinions. > > > > Pat > > > > ________ > > > > Lavrentiy > > > > > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >
I am new to this site. I have found the language and ethnicity discussion extremely enlightening. I finally saw a mention of the Plzen area. My ancestors, Wenzl Lieber and Anna Nath came to the US from Rochlov (Rochlowa former German name) in about 1902. It is about a 20 minute drive west of Plzen. I visited there in 2010. I have several questions. Some "census" records for the village indicated that there were hundreds of Germans and about 10 Czechs. Is that enough to indicate the ethnicity of my family to be German. I have attached a birth record for my great aunt from that area. To be honest, between the old handwriting and my lack of knowledge of either language, I don't know which language it is. Maybe someone could help. I had a researcher in the area do some work for me to get this information. He said that many records of my ancestors are still in town halls and not in the archives. He was from Praha. So I assume that it would be quite a trip to get to the Rochlov area to perform more in depth research. Does anyone know a a researcher in the Plzen area? Last, and not related to language and ethnicity, I visited a house in this small village with the same house number as indicated on the birth record. I don't know much about Czech history and damage from any of the wars. Assuming the numbers have not changed, could this physically be the same house that my great grandparents lived in? Thanks for any information that you can provide. Mark On Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 8:35 PM, Aida Kraus <birchbaylady@gmail.com> wrote: > Kocin, Kralovice is in the Plzen area in the Czech speaking region of > Bohemia (during the Monarchy). In that area, most Czech people spoke > German, also. You can detect the ethnicity of you family in finding Kocin > or Kralovice church records at the archives at Plzen. Kralovice > (Kralowitz) is northeast of Plzen towards the Czech interior, and if you > look at the map, Rakovnik is to the northeast, Stribro to the southwest. > Go from Stribro northeast to Rakovnik and you should find it. Pilsen > (Plzen) lies to the South. > Since there is also a Kralowitz in the Bukovina, you will have to use the > Kocin designation for a correct identification of the area and I found > Kocin and Kralovice in the Plzen area. > Aida > > > On Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 3:24 PM, Laurence Krupnak <LKrupnak@verizon.net > >wrote: > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Patricia Moos" <ppk1502@ymail.com> > > To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2012 4:22 PM > > Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Req: German-Bohemian boundaries > > > > > > >Are people from the Kocin, Kralovice area > > > > > > > > Which one..there are two places that comply with this parameter. > > > > > > > > > > >considered to be German-Bohemians? > > > > > > let us know which village...give a map which shows the location. > > > > > > > > >It seems to be on or near the boundary and I cannot tell for sure from > > >the maps. > > > > My great grandparents had a purely Czech names, but seemed to have > > spoken German as a first language, since that is what they mostly taught > > their children. They also spoke "Bohemian," as they called it, > > > > > > > > that is Czech language,. > > > > > > > and something called "Slavisch," which I take to be Slovak, but am not > > > sure. > > > > > > > > Slavisch means Slavic. Thus, they probably spoke Czech language, not > > German. > > > > > > >Would like to know your opinions. > > > > Pat > > > > ________ > > > > Lavrentiy > > > > > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >